Warhammer 40K 3rd/4th edition rules misc analysis thread

[Connor MacLeod]

More Cities of Death... the Tau vs Vostryoans.. and predictably the Tau win. This scene does give us that nice imgae though of a Vostroyan knifing a Fire Warrior through the chest though.

Page 36

Although the ruined cityscape affords plenty of hard cover, many armies will take the opportunity to fortify buildings in areas they control. Such fortifications vary from simple flak board panels nailed over windows to extensive works of sandbags and armour plating.

Various means and grades of fortification. One presumes that well established or crucial positions rely on armor plating, while more temporary ones rely on something simpler like sandbags.

Page 38

[combat engineers]
Smoke grenades (or their equivalent such as Tyranid psorefog or Ork fungus clouds)...

..

Jammers mean the unit only triggers enemy booby traps...

Combat engineers and abilities and gear. Smoke grenades, stummers, jammers (to prevent detonation of traps and mines and stuff) Pretty techy.

Page 38

Siege shells are massive munitions packed with the most potent explosives known to the 41st millenium. They are used not for clearing buildings of troops, but for clearing cities of buildings.

Siege shells descirbed. Often used in Demolisher cannons on LR Demolishers and Thunderer siege tanks as well as the really big/heavy artillery platforms.

Page 38

Some vehicles are fitted with devices that enable them to better negotiate the city enviroment from wrecking balls to enormous drills to sophisticated lascutters.

I'd imagine that lascutters would be a nasty close combat weapon. Wrecking balls seem the more Orky approach.

Page 56

With the majority of the Imperial guard and Imperial Navy units redeployed to fight the Tyranid threat, the Tau landed a vast invastion force on Nimbosa. Commander Brightsword set about the systematic extermination of the populace.

Gotta love those Tau. Attack when the Imperium is weak and can't hurt them, and then when you get there start eliminating those oyu capture. "Greater Good" my ass. I'd almost certianly say they refused the Tau's "offer", but if tha twere the case why did they land rather than just bombard from orbit? It seems a particularily retarded choice for the Tau given how casualty-sensitive they are.

Page 56

the Firstborn knew that gainst such an overwhelmingly large invasion force their only hope was to hold out against the Tau long enough for reinforcements to arrive: tomething that could take weeks if not months to happen.

"weeks or months" for reinforcements to arrive, although the delay is likely because they had to prioritize the Tyranids over tau. (Again we see luck and authorial fiat benefitting the Tau. How predictable. Fucking tau.)

Page 57

Ammunition was stockpiled in three key locations, and the great manufactoria was reinfroced with flak board and uspport struts and a vox caster network linked it to the other positions.

Vostroyan defensive positions. Pity they didn't have void shields or anything better, but I guess they were strapped for resources as well as outnumbered.

Page 57

Other, less impetuous Tau Commanders would have offered the enemy a hcance to surrender, but Brightsowrd, a student of the aggressive Farsight, had no such desire and with aggression characteristic of the Vior'la he launched the attack. Shoals of Devilfish led the advance while Sky Rays and Hammerheads pounded the forward Imperial positions. Pathfinder teams rappelled down from their hovering transports and struggled through bloody firefights to secure the rooftops form the Vostroyans.

With a foothold secured, Brightsword hoped to bombard the Imperial Guard into submission, but the walls of the cathedral and Toschenko's Fortress were too robust for the weapons he had on the ground. After several days of bombardment the Imperial forces showed no sign of surrender so, using the barrage as cover Brightsword implemented a variation of the Kauyon 'patient hunter' philosohpy and sent teams of Kroot forward to flsuh out the Guardsmen. The Kroot were met with a hail of lasgun fire that tore into their ranks slowing their advance. But unerringly accurate shooting from the pathfinders armed with rail rifles silenced the Imperial guns and eventually the Kroot fought their way inside the cathedral. Once inside, the savage Kroot carnivore squads hacked into the Vostroyan defendres, devouring their victims as they went.

Tau tactics in assaulting the Vostroyan positions. Initially (And surprisingly, considering your usual Tau wank) the Imperials manage to hold out even against their vehicles and what passes for artillery and direct assault from multiple directions. Unfortunatley, numerical disparity favours the Tau and they succeed in brekaing through with the help of the Kroot (again, big shock.) Had the Tau not had numerical advantage one wonders if Brightsword's plan might have succeeded. Hell, one wonders if the tau could have won had there been more than just a single regiment.

Also, we probably learn why the taun landed ot personally wipe out the populace- Brightsword is a viscious sadistic dick. Big shock.


Page 57

Toschenko realised that his enemy was systematically cutting off one point of defence after another and eradicating it. THere was no chance of victory unless he launched a counter-attack. Across the Vostroyan positions the order was given to rise up and assault the Tau. More than two thousand Vostroyans burst from their cover in the factory and charged down the cratered streets to the cathedral where their comrade were being exterminated. Vengeful they stormed the building, only to find the Kroot already in full flight, retreating in the face of their fury.

Stupid move on the Vostryoan's part since it plays into the Tau's hands, but as the account notes, it didnt seem like they had any option at this point, being as outnumbered as they were.

Also the Vostryoan regiment numbered more than 2000, although by how much more we dont know.

Page 57

..Toschenko and his men, backed by what tanks remained, moved forward to engage several Tau units holding position in the machine workshops. As the Guardsmen stormed down the opne streets they encountered only light resistance and their vanguard was only metres away from cover when Brightsword sprung his trap. Crisis battlesuits on rooftops fired down at the Guardsmen in the wide streets below. Tanks were blasted apart as seeker missiles guided by Pathfinder teams targeted their weaker rear armour and concealed Stealth teams armed with burst cannons blew entire infantry companies apart.

Once lured out of their fixed positions, the Imperials are dead meat for the Tau. amazing how that plays into their hands isnt it?

The Stealth teams armed with the burst cannon are pretty nasty - "blowing apart" implies TNT/Grendae level damage, although the number of shots and duration to do this isn't specified (or how many guns) so we can't relaly calc it.

Page 57

Brother Lodhuvicus reported tha tthe ruins of Polia were strewn with the remains of thousands of Imperial Guard, their weapons and wargear untouched. Within the shattered buildings of Polia itself, the Tau left no presence.

Remains of the Vostryoans afte rthe engagement. The Tau didnt even seem to keep the planet... so why the fuck did they fight to begin with? It's not like they have inexhaustible armies here. Fucking tau.

[Falkenhayn]

Never fear, Connor. In the new SW 'dex, they engage Tau mining colonies sheltered dome cities on an ocean floor. The SW simply drop pod Grey Hunters, Terminators and Land Raiders into the water and let them sink. Then the sides duke it out on the seabed, with the corpses floating to the surface (turns out Devilfish and Hammerheads are subs as well), before the SW crack the domes and drown the colonies.

Then the SW walk back to land on the ocean floor, except for a few that hitch rides in the surviving Land Raiders.

[Xess]

This is really interesting stuff, thanks for sharing all your work Connor. On a side note, why do you dislike the Tau so much? I don't know anything about 40k so I am interested in your opinion.

[Black Admiral]

Well, if Connor's opinions are anything like my own there, it's at least partly the fact that the Tau are immune to Murphy; quite simply, despite their love of complex tactics that require an insane level of coordination and synchronisation, everything always comes off right for them. Usually at a very low cost (see, Commander Mary'sue - sorry, Shadowsun - vs. a 'Nid Hivefleet).

Which is one reason I like the latest Ultramarines novel (Courage and Honour), incidentally; the Tau get an unambiguous mauling there.

[Xess]

Well, if Connor's opinions are anything like my own there, it's at least partly the fact that the Tau are immune to Murphy; quite simply, despite their love of complex tactics that require an insane level of coordination and synchronisation, everything always comes off right for them. Usually at a very low cost (see, Commander Mary'sue - sorry, Shadowsun - vs. a 'Nid Hivefleet).

Which is one reason I like the latest Ultramarines novel (Courage and Honour), incidentally; the Tau get an unambiguous mauling there.

I can see how that would be would be annoying. Personally I like the Tau, from the perspective of someone with essentially no 40k knowledge of course. Even so I can't understand why authors would wank them out to such a degree. Seems bad for storytelling if they always win.

[Falkenhayn]

The Tau received a generous honeymoon period in the fluff, where they experienced great success and their basic approach to 40k'verse was vindicated in pretty much anything they did. It's only in the last year-18 months that that things have starting going pear shaped for them, and they've starting hitting the same snags as one of their real-life motivators, ie: that their supposedly superior technology and mythical spiritual unity will overcome the moral weakness and endless numbers of their opponents.

Sound familiar?

[Talk738kno]

To be fair, don't the Eldar tend to use complex tactics that require an insane level of coordination and synchronisation as well? Granted there pskyers greatly streamline the insanity to a manageable level and there Farseers tend to spot on most of the time.

Actually, to think about it, the Eldar use Tau tatics way better then the Tau themselves, thanks to there vastly superior tech and psykers.

[Black Admiral]

The problem I have with the Tau isn't their tactical approach in and of itself (although I do think it's dangerously rigid and casualty-averse), but the fact that a lot of GW writers seem to have such a raging hard-on for the Tau that they ignore the flaws of their chosen tactical approach, as well as numerous other structural & doctrinal flaws of the Tau forces.

Granted, that does seem to be changing somewhat, which I'm glad for; Courage and Honour being one example thereof.

Also, Father Time = best name for a Baneblade yet.

[Bedlam]

Maybe the problem is the Tau's small scale compaired to the other races, any loss for them would be a major event that would have significant repercussions for them. Thus writers tend to have them win under most situations so it doesn't have to effect the over all status Quo.

Forinstance, if the imperium looses a word to chaos well thats nothing serious even if its a hive world or an otherwise important location its still one in a million. If a major tau world is destroyed then that a significent proportion of their industral output gone. Same with smaller battles, the loss of a few regiments of Imperial Guards is nothing, if a major Tau army is lost then that puts a serious stop to their advance for several years.

[Connor MacLeod]

My main beef with the Tau isn't so much the tactics by itself, although that plays into the problem I have. My main problem is with the presentation of the Tau concept as is, as opposed to what they think it is. We've basically got a small Empire that at BEST maybe is starting to get into the "hundreds of worlds" stage and has maybe billions of troops tops. How the hell do they make any real impact that would make them noticable enough on any scale? I mean we have the Necrons and the Eldar, who are remnants of once-vast civilisations and are still scattered across the galaxy. We have Orks and Tyranids who are galaxy spanning. We have Chaos. The tau really don't fit in. Hell they're smaller than the Squats (who had thousands of systems by themselves!)

Everything else pretty much follows from the size. Holding so few systems means they have vastly fewer troops, ships, resources, etc. and Technology only makes up for so much. Its kinda lke the Federation (tau) vs Empire (IoM) debate in absurdity - it just can't be made to work without some deus ex machina. And invariably that IS what happens. You've got the Astronomican flickering now, which just HAPPENS to isolate the Imperium further from the Tau. You have the Imperium coincidentally always being too busy to properly deploy forces elsewhere ot handle the Tau (the Vostroyan incident is one case, the Taros crusade is another. Although at least with Taros they admit that luck played a huge role there) Then there's Andy Hoare's rogue trader novels in general.

Had I to conceptualize the tau, the big thing I would have fixed is upping their true scope by at least an order of magntidue.. thousands.. perhaps a few tens of thousands of systems. Indicated that a great many more "auxiliary/allied" races like the Kroot and VEspid exist, as well as having conquered some human auxiliaries (which would be their first contact with the humans, until learning about the Imperium.) I would NOT put the two in direct contact.. the Tau would be quite a bit beyond the Astronmican's range... the Tau's location would be hard to find, isolate or attack effectively (as they are now), but they also wouldn't be launching outirght invasions to try to take territory from the vastly larger Imperium (yeah that made sense). You'd really just be having armed military exploration groups basically skirmishing with one another trying to find them.

There's nothing wrong with Tau tactics, I just would have kept them as more "elite" forces unless they intended to up population density to relax the whole "sensitiveity to tau losses" bit - eahc Tau being an individually up teched and effective long range fighter, while using the auxiliaries in a more defensive/protective role (basically they keep the enemy at a distance and generally act as meatshields "for the Greater good" while the Tau do their marksman thing.) Overall that tends to fit better with how the Tau seem to be intended to be than how they really are.

[Coalition]

There's nothing wrong with Tau tactics, I just would have kept them as more "elite" forces unless they intended to up population density to relax the whole "sensitiveity to tau losses" bit - eahc Tau being an individually up teched and effective long range fighter, while using the auxiliaries in a more defensive/protective role (basically they keep the enemy at a distance and generally act as meatshields "for the Greater good" while the Tau do their marksman thing.) Overall that tends to fit better with how the Tau seem to be intended to be than how they really are.

The other stunt would be having a single Tau Firewarrior controlling an army of drones in battle. Same rules, same stats, same costs, etc, you just only have a single Tau in a 1500 pt army, rather than a hundred.

Figure you'd replace the Ethereal unit with a single Tau sitting in front of a computer, with mouse and keyboard, playing DOW:IRL.

[Connor MacLeod]

Next to last Cities of Death update. Huron Blackheart (one of hte many iterations thereof) and the start of the third armageddon war.

Page 58

but his [Huron Blackheart's] mutiny was fully revealed when, in 901.M41, he ordered an attack on an Imperial investigation fleet sent to examine his [gene-seed] tithing deficit. Unrepentant of his breach of fidelity and the salughter of mor than twenty thousands loyal servants of the Emperor, he declared himself the Tyrant of Badab and announced the system's secession from the Imperium. Three other Space Marine Chapters - the Mantis Warriors, Executioners and Lamenters - declared themselves for Huron, incensed by the Imperium's apparent willingness to turn against one of their number.

I've heard 23,000 but 20K is a good aproximate number. I wonder how big the "fleet" must have been though (not very to have that few, or else it was highly automated.)

Page 59

the Palace of Thorns was a sprawling complex that rested in one of th mountainous volcanic ranges of the planet and covered an area of more than twenty square miles. One every side was a sheer drop of hundreds of feet and its walls were bedecked with defence lasers and vast artillery batteries. Almost impregnable to ground attack, the Star Phantoms instead assaulted the Palace of Thorns via drop pod and Thunderhawk, under the cover of a colossal orbital bombardment.

scale and fortifications of Huron's base. Hundreds of feet tall and twenty miles wide. Similar to alot of cities we've seen in other novels, so we might use this sa a possible benchmark for the size of some 40K cities, at least. (at least the kind you would blast form orbit, anyhow)

Funny enough, the Ultarmarines novel "Assault on Black Reach" tried the trick the Star PHantoms did (Although they went in just AFTEr the bombardment stopped.. on the heels) and that was considered highly risky. Makes me wondre if this is perhaps "Codex astartes" bullshit talking, esp since the Ultramarines are th most codex of Codex Chapters.

Page 59

Dozens of drop pods crashed into the towering minarets of the palace and were smashed apart as they hammered into heavily fortified buildings. Despite this, pinpoint timing and incredible fortunre allowed more than five hundred Space Marines from the seven full comapnies that participated in the drop to survive their initial entry.

It would be useufl to know how we consider "heavily foritfied" here, although in principle we are talking about a multi ton object crashing down at many kilometers per second, so the possibility they are destroyed on impact isn't neccesarily far-fetched. Certainly not considering its suggested the buildings aren't levelled or catastrophically blasted apart by the impacts.

Page 59

A legion of Ordo Hereticus storm troopers effected landfall within mere hours of the defence emplacements being destroyed and joined the Star Phantoms' offensive.

Deploytment time of Inquisition Stormies.

Page 59

..best estimates suggest that more than two hundred of the traitors escaped the Palace of Thorns and into the Malestrom

200 Astral Claws survived, maybe.

Page 60

An entire continent was subjugated in a matter of weeks by Thraka's vast army.

For Orks, this is probably rather impressive.

Page 60

Yarrick had an excellent understanding of the Ork mind, even tlearning their language during his time fighting against them.

..

..Yarrick ordered the AStropaths to send a signal for aid, which in turn earned him Von Strab's displeasure and exile to HAdes hive.

Good old Yarrick.

[Connor MacLeod]

New update.. I'm covering Codex: Chaos Daemons this time... not much quantifiable stuff.. but it carries alot on the nature of the warp and the Chaso Gods in general and that is interesting and there are extrapolations to be pulled from all of that. Came out last year IIRC so its definitely 4th edition.

Page 4

It is constantly reborn but has never changed, eternally shifting though static. No natural, preternatural, or supernatural sense can see, smell, or hear it, except through illusory analogues that drive men insane. It is a place where gods thrive in constant war, fighting over the raw stuff of anti-creation that birthed them.

Warp description.

Page 4

In this unknowable realm titanic hosts clash, locked together in a conflict that is as old as the unvierse and can never be won. Armies formed of nothing but thoughtless energy rage and scream, driven onwards by the whims of their creators.

"insta armies" is a concept rather central to the Eye of Terror novel, it must be noted, so this isnt unprecedented.

Page 6

The Realm of Chaos, also known as the Warp, the Immaterium, or Warpspace, is a dimension parallel to our own, a universe devoid of matter and life, without laws of time and space. It is a random, unstructured dimension of pure energy and unfocused consciousness. It is Chaos, unfettered by the limits of physics and undirected by intelligent purpose.

Another description of the warp, along with the usual "doesnt obey physics" bit.

Page 6

The Chaos Gods and their dominions are one; both are formed of the same Warp energy. As a Chaos God gathers energy it expands, its corresponding influence on the Warp around it broadens and its territory in the Realm of Chaos grows.

..

as extensions of the gods, the appearancc of these domanisn are formed upon the same emotions that created their masters:

..

Though realm and god are as one, the Chaos Gods each have a form that embodies their personalities and dwells at the heart of their territories.

Creation and growth of Chaos gods. Its worth noting that this probably reflects on other powers as well (GeOM, Ork Gods, etc.)

Page 6-7

The Chaos Gods are not alone in Warpspace. They have created servants - Daemons - who are not so closely bound to the Warp. They are separate from the flow of their universe, small pockets of self-contained energy, and do not change iwth it. Daemons are beings of a completely differen tnature to their masters, and are the most numerous creatures in the Warp. A Daemon is "born" when a Chaos God gives up a little of its power to create a separate being. This power binds a collection of senses, thoughts, and purposes together, ,giving a personality or consciousness that moves within the Warp. The Chaos power can reclaim the power and independence it has given to its Daemon ch ildren at any time, thus ensuring their loyalty. It is only through the loss of this power that a Daemon can be truly destroyed, its mind dissolving into the whirls and currents of Warpspace.

The nature of daemons and their relations to the chaos god. This sounds alot like the "gestalt" interpretation of the Emperor from the Inquisition War, incidentally. It makes sense though, since Chaos Gods are largely a composite of the thoughts/feelings of countless individual souls as it is (and they grow in power by getting more of the same).

Page 7

Daemons have no physical presence within the Warp. The Realm of Chaos is anathema to matter of any kind and ships that navigate its depths do so by taking a skin or bubble of 'reality' with them when they enter. Instead of haivng a true phyiscal shape, Daemons project a form conjured from the Warp's raw energy.

..

These insubstantialf orms echo (or are echoed byh) the shapes adopted by Daemons in real space, and the chidlren of a Chaos Power will create and project similar forms.

Requirements of warp travel and the anture of a daemon's "physical" form. Its also likely that they rely on the acquisition some sort of realspace matter to support their physical body.


Page 7
[qote]
As with the Chaos Gods and their realms, these forms come to reflect the emotions a Daemon is based upon and have been shaped by centuries of feeding on belief. In the real universe a Daemon's form is no more physical than it is in the Warp, though it may appear to be made of normal matter.

...

Slaying a Daemon's phsical projection does not kill a Daemon, only its presence in reality; its true Warp power remains unharmed.

When a daemon is 'killed' in the material world, it is not truly destrtoyed but banished to the void. It must remain there to regain its strength, and is sometimes absorbed compltely by its creator, or will eventually manifest itself again. Legend has it that a Daemon banished in this way cannot return for a thousand years and a day, though it is of course impossible to prove such a bleief through study, and time is meaningless within the Warp.[/quote]

More on the physical form, including the "death" of a Daemon. The duration is probably variable, and largely referencing realspace time. (although the implication in Grey Knights is that its legit).

Page 7

The Realm of Chaos has no true time, and events do not occur in a strict sequnece of cause then effect. In essence, Slaanesh has always existed in the Warp, and yet has never existed.

The usual "time is irrelevant in the wArp." The bit about Slaanesh seems confusing, but it likely refers to the fact that the concept of Slaanesh (the emotional thoughts and feelings he/she represented) have always existed, but it wasnt until the fall they actually coalesced into some tangible, sentient form. This also means there are probably countless other "chaos godes" out there.

Page 8

With the ebb and flow of energy within the Warp, the power of a Chaos God expands and contracts, and his realm will shift accordingly. For long periods one god may dominate the others, fed by its own success, leeching its foes' energy for its own growth. Ultimately, the other gods will ally against the dominant force and through combined efforts reduce him in power, until another of their number rises to prominence.

..

No Chaos God can ever truly be victorious, for if all other Warp Powers were obliterated, the WArp would become a still, unmoving mass and Chaos would no longer exist.

Chaos gods are (predictably) variable in power, essentailly unkillable. The nature of the warp dictates that any eventual "domination" will eventaully fade through cooperative efforts.

The interesting bit (and perhaps the only thing that truly unifies them) is that if the Chaos Gods were "oblierated" the Warp would become tranquil again. Personally, I don't buy that, since its turbulent nature is tied to the increased psychic nature of the 40K galaxy's beings (remember the deal with the Eldar?) it probably wouldn't be permanant. And obliteration probably means rendering individual chaos gods into countless individual "components" rather than being a single, massive composite.

This does have implications outside 40K in terms of the vs debate. It probably reinfores teh idea that the "Warp" in other galaxies would not neccesarily reflect what it does in 40K. (In turn, the comments in Storm of Iron about Khorne conquering other galaxies would be taken into context in this respect. Possibly, technically true, but that would imply some larger "super-khorne" overreaching... my head hurts.)

[Connor MacLeod]

More Chaos Daemons.. I hope someone finds this interesting, because aside from the implications it holds for the warp and psychic entities in 40K in general, I find it a bit boring.

Page 8

When the gods war, the Immaterium trembles and Warpstorms billow across the galaxy.

This probably helps explain "spontaneous" warp storms fucking things up in the galaxy.

Page 8

Tzeentch is perhaps the most dangerous of all the gods, ,for he will always create a weakness to exploit before attacking.

..

Tzeentch frequently sets the other gods to war with each other.

Tzeentch is a danger to everyone, including himself, because of his nature and what he does. I don't imagine he actually gains dominance for very long, but I bet he is one of those quick to ally with others to destabilize someone else.

Page 8

For the most part, at least one god will be contending with the others and this occupies the attention of all, drawing their gaze away from the mortal realm. It is not unknown though for all four of the gods to agree on a common purpose, although each only consents to such truces in order to gain some kind of advantage. Once in every few thousand years, as we reckon it, there arises a being, place, or object in the material universe that attracts the attention of all the Gods of Chaos. So important is this new element, so desired or so dangerous, that all rivalry is temporarily put aside in order for Chaos to take advantage or thwart this threat. Then the Four work as one for a while, but as soon as their objective is achieved, the eternal struggle resumes.

Such as.. the GEoM. It suggests that stuff like the Horus Heresy isnt an unusual occurance, and may have happened in the past. Who knows, perhaps the Dark Age of Technology was another of those occurances, since it was the outbreak of rampant psyker activity that (IIRC) lead to the whole Age of Strife thing.

Another possible interpretation is that its not that an Emperor is reborn, but a physical avatar for him pops up.. such is implied in various things -The Thorian faction of the Inquisition, certain stories like Warped Stars, etc. Chaos definitely would not want the Emperor reincarnating again, after all. On the other hand it implies that objects or places can also draw that, so other reasons may be at play as well.

Another thing to note from this is how the interactions and goals of the Chaos entities reflect their thinking in terms of tactics and strategy. In simple terms a Chaos god wants souls and more power, and to promulgate its particular "quality" (EG Khorne war, Tzeentch change and betrayal, etc.) and to do that as much as they can. Winning and losing is almos tsecondary in that context, because by and large the Chaos entity "wins" on some level (Khorne doesnt care if the Imperials die or his own followers - the end result is largely the same to him)

Page 8

For Mankind, the most significant occasion of this type was the rise of the Emperor. During this period the Chaos Gods tried with all their might to bring about the Master of Mankind's downfall, culminating in their corruption of the Primarchs and the wars of the Horus Heresy. Other events have led to brief cessations of conflict in the REalm of Chaos: particularily promising Black Crusades by Daemon Princes or Chaos Space Marine warlords; the extermination or birtth of a new race; the rise of a new being.

One wonders if the rise of the tau has gotten any notice from Chaos.

Page 8

The Warp has no physical dimensions, and the Realm of Chaos is without limits or true geography. The areas of influence controlled by the Chaos Gods from their realms, and the rest of htis roiling landscape is often referred to as the Formless Wastes, the Land of Lost Souls or the Chaos Abyss.

..

Much of the Formless WAstes is random chaos, constantly churning and reforming depending upon the whims of moertals and currents in the Warp.

..

The Formless Wastes are home to the Furies - Daemons created by indecision and random chance, fed by baseless fear and dread. In great flocks they circle through the actinic sky, ,searching for vulnerable, easy prey - the fluttering souls of mortals that have not yet been absorbed into the warp.

More on the geography of Chaos, particularily the areas controlled by the Chaos Gods. I wonder if some of this might be drawn from the Warhammer Fantasy side.

Also unaligned demons known as "furies" - I wonder if this includes other creatures like Enslavers, or if this is just generall "unaligned" territory.

Page 9

It is also in the Formless Wastes that other powers create their abodes - the provinces of Greater Daemons and Daemon Princes grown powerful enough to instill a small measure of control over their surroundings.

It seems daemons do not have inherent control over just ANY part of the Warp.. at least not permanant control. Kinda like turf wars I suppose.

Page 9

Beside him [Khorne] rests a great two-handed sword, capable of laying waste to worlds with a single blow.

Truth or hyperbole? You decide.

Page 9

In the inward slopes of these jagged, fire-tipped peaks sprawl the foundries of Khorne. It is said that within these dire forges labour the souls of warriors who died in their sleep, forever doomed to serve Khorne as slaves.

..

These grim edifices keep Khorne's armouries filled; his numberless warriors armed and armoured by ceaseless toil.

Khornate forge worlds.

Page 10

The Dark PRince's realm is divided into six domains, arranged in concentric rings bout the Palace of Pleasure.

..

Each region is not only a celebration of Slaanesh's desires, but also his chief defence. An intruder can only reach the Palace of Pleasure in the very heart of Slaanesh's territory by passing through all six cricles - an act of willb eyond most souls, both mortal and daemonic.

The circles are Avidity (if you touch the wealth there you turn to gold), Gluttony (Where if you stay you gorge til you explode), Carnality (inhabited by daemonettes), Paramountcy (stay and fall to paranoia and become imprisoned in your own self doubt), Vainglory (a Garden that will choke sting or other nasty shit after you're fooled off the path by arrogance), and lastly Indolency (IF yo stay and rest you fall into a coma and die)

Page 11

the Crystal Labyrinth of Tzeentch sits upon an immense iridescent plateau, its presencec is felt across all the DAemonic realms. Intercahnging, shifting avenues made of crystals of every colour criss-cross Tzeentch's realm. Hidden pathways built from lies and schems infiltrate the dominions of the other gods, binding together the fractious Realms of Chaos.

Rather than outline the elements of the realm, its pretty easy to guess that its going to lie, fool, misdirect, and entrap through illusion, mutation, and constant change of every possible element within it. Oh and madness, lots of madness.

Only Lords of Change are said to be able to navigate it safely. Even then I'd bet that Tzeentch likes to fuck one up every once in awhile.

Page 12

The Hidden Library itself contains every scrap of knoweldge, every thought of every creature across space and time. The books, parchments and scrolls are bound with chains of magical fire, row upon row, shelf upon shelf all knoweldge stretching into the infinite recesses of Tzeentch's lair. Trapped within the shifting labyrinth, countless Pink Horrors and Blue Horrors creep and crawl over the library, tending to the books as a mad gardener might tend to a sprawling mess of weeds and thorns. The grimoires chatter to their keepers, using their voices to trap the Horrors in webs of deceit and scandal so that the Daemons eventually fade away and the Hidden Library absorbs their energy.

Tzeentch's Library, I guess. Not a place I plan to check anything out of.

Page 12

Tzeentch is the Changer of Ways, the Great Conspirator - the Architect of Fate for the universe.

..

None of Tzeentch's cogitations are simple, and indeed are often contradictory, for he aspires to nothing except eternal trickery and artifice.

...

Trapped within his own ineffable thoughts Tzeentch has no goals or aims other than the weaving of complex schemes.

Tzeentch's nature described in snippets. Basically he's everyone's enemy, even his own, and this makes him powerful. As I said, the different and often inhuman goals and methods of these creatures render judgement of their tactics hard to do. (How can you register something as a loss if losing your own forces strengthens you if you do so in a manner that is consistent with your beliefs?)

Page 12

- one other thing I will mention about this page is the mention of the Guardian of hte Maze. It mentions a "Path to infinite knowledge" through ine gates, seen over by a Guardian that is little more than a mouth and poses riddles from one of the 999 Riddles of Tzaratxoth. THe Guardian cannot hear the answers so does not know but the enchantment still allows the correct guess through. Incurect guesses get the person eaten. The riddles are so taxing that only the "greatest lateral and logical thinkers can discern their answers."

There's also al egend that only one challenger in the guise"of a young girl with a little black dog" making her way through the gates. Tzeentch questioned about this and the Guardian accused her of cheating.

No idea what it hints at, but its amusing.

[Bedlam]

There's also al egend that only one challenger in the guise"of a young girl with a little black dog" making her way through the gates. Tzeentch questioned about this and the Guardian accused her of cheating.

No idea what it hints at, but its amusing.

I think that might be a joke about the Wizard of Oz the little girl being Dorophy and the Dog Toto. I dont know if that would make the Guardian the Wizard or someone else from the story. Probably just a joke with nothing deeper.

[The Grim Squeaker]

There's also al egend that only one challenger in the guise"of a young girl with a little black dog" making her way through the gates. Tzeentch questioned about this and the Guardian accused her of cheating.

No idea what it hints at, but its amusing.

I think that might be a joke about the Wizard of Oz the little girl being Dorophy and the Dog Toto. I dont know if that would make the Guardian the Wizard or someone else from the story. Probably just a joke with nothing deeper.

It could be a Sandman reference, possibly to Delirium and Barnaby. (sounds like it, and a rather fitting in joke given Delirium's portfolio).

[Connor MacLeod]

Next, more Chaos Daemons: of particular note are the details on warp storms (at least, I found them interesting..)

Page 13

Beneath mildewed and sagging beams, the great god works for eternity at a rusted cauldron, a receptacle vast enough to contain all the oceans of all the worlds of the galaxy. Chuckling and murmuring to himself, Nurgle labours to create contagion and pestilence - the most perfect, unfettered forms of life. With every stir of Nurgle's maggot-ridden ladle, a dozen fresh diseases flourish and are scattered through the universes to bring low civilisations and destrroy the populations of worldds.

Nurgle working conditions.

Page 13

Though Nurgle's realm will eventually recede again, it will have fed deeply on the immateiral bodies of those who have perished, and will lie in gestate peace for another eternity until it is ready to swell once more.

Nurgle work goals - he seems a rather pragmatic sort, all things considered.

Page 14

These legions consist of Greater Daemons, Daemon Princes, Lesser Daemons, Daemonic Beasts, and other creatures beyond classification. Spawned and destroyed by the needs and whims of their Chaos God, the size of a god's forcese swells and ebbs with the power of their master.

Yet another indication of the ways that the forces of daemons that exist are tied to a Warp entitiy.

Page 14

.. the Daemons of Chaos lust after the mortal realm. It is here that the Daemons can dominate and destroy, conquer and corrupt, in a material universe that can be permanantly changed. For this reason, Daemons are constnatly seeking egress into the realm of mortals where they can wreak havoc and increase the power of their master and gain worshippers of their own.

The reasons why the Daemons are so all fired up to get into the real world. Its like a playground for them. the fact that things can stay changed in the mortal realm (while Chaos is ever changing) seems to be a particular attraction for them, as does the worship angle.

Furthermore: its noted in the codex that Daemons will fight against each other, even of the same alleigance, even aiding another master's daemons, simply because they're daemons and its chaotic and its what they do.

Page 14

Yet there are occasions when a life burns more brightly for an instant, and this may attract the attention of one or more gods.

..

Sometimes other events such as cataclysmic wars, the discovery of an ancient artefact or the rise of a new power will also distract a Chaos God from the Great Game. When such a significant occurance takes place, ,a Chaos God might pause for a moment to turn a tiny fraction of its atetntion to events in the physical universe, and will endeavour to influence the unfolding events to tis own gain. Sometimes a Chaos God will send a Daemon as a messenger, to bring power or information to a mortal.

..

A Chaos God might dispatch a Daemon to retrieve or placeea c ertain artefact, or to influence events in such a way that the outcome will bring power ot the Chaos God.

The sorts of things that are big/important enough to warrant the notice of a big old Chaos god. The Emperor almost certainly qualified as such, as do sufficiently powerful "appeals" (ie sacrificing large numbers of osuls)

An interesting implication behind this is that the power of the being and the "attention" it can focus on small matters varies inversely - IE Chaso gods wont notice individual mortals unless they stand out in some way, despite being virtually Godlike. This may be yet another reason why Chaos Gods bother expending part of their power/essence in creating lesser daemons - it creates weaker beings who can act as observers/scouts for them and thus potentially bring important matters to their attnetion (allowing it to "filter" up the chain of command, as it were.) A relatively small and weak daemon is more likely to notice individual mortals than a big ass Chaos God. They also can act more easily to collect individual souls and such to garner more power for their God and such.

Man, now that makes Chaos sound like some sort of Pyramid scheme, doesnt it?

Page 14

In order for a Daemon to break through into the mortal universe there must be a weakening of the barriers between Warpspace and the material realm -- a Warp rift. Some of these occur randomly, other times either the gods or mortals manufacture them.

"naturally" occuring warp rifts being random makes sort of sense, given the ever shifting nature of the Warp. It also suggests that there might be a "self healing" element to such - no natural warp rift would be permanant.

The "manufactured" rifts are fairly obvious - they can be created by large scale deaths like mass sacrifice or war. Its likely that only the artificial rifts are the dangerous ones.

Page 15

The size of a breach can vary tremendously, from a slight thinning of the dimensional walls that allows a Daemon to extend some of its power into the mortal world and possess an indviidual, to immense tears in reality that massive armies of Daemons use for invasion.

More of the vairability of warp rifts. It goes without saying that the big ones are the Eye of Terror and the Maelstrom and other such places - artificial rifts that are baiscally self-sustaining which is why they are semi-permanant. This is perrhaps one reason why there is a need for slaves and such from outside the Eye - to keep up all the warp fuckery that allows the Eye to exist.

Page 15

Daemons can possess morttals on the other side of the voidal barrier by transferring some of their power into the mind of their victim. They appear in dreams and vidisons, and through exploitation of a gap in realityies infuse their victim with a portion of their daemonic power. This inevitably leads to the destruction of the possessed mortal, as their physical frame is warped and twisted by the Ademon to suit its own needs and inhuman asthetic. A few mortals willingly allow themselves to be possessed,. glorying in the power and superhuman abilities they gain, even though the energies they crave will eventually destroy them.

Daemonic possession and its dangers. No possession is permanant, as the nature of warp has an ultimately corrosive effect on any normal matter (inability to handle constnat warping/mutation or the magnitude of energies channeled through it.)

Page 15

Though the physical and psychic power of a Daemon is severely limited by the mortal body it possesses, the scope for mayhem and carnage is still great.

They mention that those in positiosn of power possessed can wreak great havoc and chaos lasting for centuries (Wars, rebellions, etc.) which is pretty obvious. This passage naturally indicates a pretty obvious limitation in possession - there is both an inverse relationship between the duration of possession and the power expended, the quality of the vessel and such capabilities, AND an absolute limit on power or duration (even a powerful vessel wille ventually be lost.)

They mention "Imperial Commanders, army generals and political leaders" under daemonic influence.

Peversely this suggests that the best way to defeat a daemon is to get it to literally "burn itself up" - utilzing its powers and energies to combat its enemies and therefore use up its host. It also suggests that the most "effective" and potentially destructive possesers are the ones who are more subtle and less overt in using their powers - not only does minimal power usage prolong their existence in realspace, but it also makes it harder for them to be discovered.

Page 15

The World of Phalan 10 was subjected to a crippling month-long orbital bombardment under the orders of the Daemon-possessed Admiral Koth. Entire Imperial Guard regiments in transit to warzones have been turned by the power of Chaos when their commanders have been possessed by Daemons. Even some Inquisitors, in studying their enemies too closely, have fallen prey to Daemonic possession, unleashing bloodthirsty witch-hunts and starting costly conflicts, as when Inquisitor Vech oversaw the cleansing of the Angelion secotr in the late 38th Millenium.

The myraid ways in which chaos possession can occur and can inflct chaos and destruction on the galaxy.

Page 15

Using hosts or sacrifices, Chaos cultists sometimes create enough of a Warp breach for the essences of a few Daemons to create vessels in the real world. Such manifestations are often weak and short-lived - long enough for the mortals to achieve their purpose, but ultimately transitory and frustrating for the Daemons.

Power (warp power? soul power? I dunno what to call it) is needed to create and maintain a warp breach. The more power, the larger the breach and/or the longer it can be maintained. Such logic obviously extends upwards to other things (EG Starships and warp travel.)

Page 16

Often it is the tumultuous movements of the Warp itself that create a break into the material realm, allowing Daemons to spill through the resulting breach. This might happen by chancee circumstance; events such as Warp drive implosions and rogue psykers detonating can cause a rift to appear. At other times, the deliberate rituals of mortals can weaken the barriers between realms, allowing the teeming hordes of the Chaos Gods to smash through and enter the material realm. Sometimes, simple suffering, death, and misery on a massive scale - as occurs during wars and great calamities - forms a Warpstorm that a daemonic legion can use as a portal.

Examples of artifiically influenced warp behaviour causing breaches or rifts, either directly or indirectly. The implication seems to be that the Warp is somehow akin to weather patterns in some shape or form, with rifts being some sort of storm or weather phenomena (tornado, hurricane, etc.) due to the "shifting of currents" or whatnot.

Anyhow, as I noted before, large scale deaths and mass sacrifice can create rifts. The fact warp ships can do it is a no brainer either (and yet another reason for why they typically emerge from the edge of the system. - perversely this means what Admiral Rath did in the First Tyrannic war was both desperate and risky.)

Page 16

It does not require much energy for one of the Four to open a breach in the Warp for a single Daemon to enter through the mortal realm. There are times, though, when a whole army of Daemons is required for a momentus quest - a world destroyed, an army smashed asunder, a race wiped out. Rarely will a Chaos God risk the use of so much power, for such extravagance may leave the Chaos God vulnerable. However, at such times when it does unleash such devastating power, whole sectors are swept aside by the tide of Daemons vomited forth upon the unsuspecting galaxy.

A possible explanation for why Chaos Gods do not engage in large real space disturbances as a rule - the energy expenditure would leave them vulrnable to attack form their enemies (other Chaos gods, the Emperor, etc.) and risk their destruction. similarily, the Emperor probably does not to this for the same reason.

Likely one reason why sacrifices and worship matter ot them, sacrifices probably represent a brief burst of power they can utilize for advantageous purposes like this.

Page 16

Some Warp rifts last mere moments. The Daemonic army becomes immediately trapped in the material realm and will swiftly succumb to the constant leeching of Chaos energy required to maintain its presencec in the morttal realm. Warp rifts can also last for days, years and even centuries. Isolated from aid and escape by the perils of the Warpstorm, a world engulfed by a Warp rift becomes the playground and battlefield of the Daemons until the Warp rift finally seals and the Daemons can then be banished back to their everlasting realm. A few Warpstroms have endured so long that they can be considered permanant, their energies self-sustaining.

Wapr rifts are not just a means of egress for a daemon, they are its lifeline to persisting in realspace. Without which they will eventually "die" and fade off (prime example being Angron and the First Armageddon War.)

Also note the mention of "self perpetuating" warp rifts, places like the Eye and such (presumably.) Although their self sustaining nature likely depends on their size and the presence of large numbers of occupants.

Page 16

Of these, the greatest and most dangerous is the Eye of Terror, created by the birth of slaanesh and home to unnumbered worlds fought over by Daemons and mortals alike, the infamous Traitor Space Marine Legions amongst them. Another significant Warpstorm is the Maelstrom, found near to the galactic core and haven for thosuands of pirates and renegades, including the dreaded Red Corsaris. Other, less widely known Warpstorms exist, such ast he Heart of Darkness near to the world of Atilla, and the S torm of Judgement that engulfs almost all of the Caradryad sector on the Southern Rim.

The significant aforementioned "self sustaining" Warpstorms.

Page 16

Often strange portents herald this great weakening of the barriers between realms; psykers having waking nightmares, the sky and stars buckle and shift and a feeling of ever-present dread descends upon the hapless world. The rift itself can take many forms.

Translation: Warp rifts do not just happen and do not occur by surprise.

[Connor MacLeod]

Next Chaos Daemons update


Page 16

The Harlequins hate Chaos in all its forms and often appear to fight against daemonic incursions, guided by their Shadowseers and ancient Eldar prophecies.

Self-explanatory.

Page 16

The air around a daemonic host seethes with chaos energy, for the daemonic incursion brings a portion of the Realm of Chaos with it. The ground melts and warps beneath the tread of the daemons and the sky around them flickers with distant visions. As the Chaos power pours form the rift, matter and energy fuse, turning familiar landmarks into a blisterd mass of ever-changing horror.

Side effects of a daemonic incursion into realspace. The interesting question is if it is merely temporary or if the warping is permanant once the incursion retreats and the energy sustaining it dissipates.

Page 16

During an incursion on the hive world of Paraghast, the power of Chaos transofrmed the principle city of Patrihive into a nightmare. It became a twisted prison to billions of souls, trapping them within a writhing dome of flesh-hungry thorns and creepers twenty kilometres high. Its roots buried into the surrounding ash wastes for a hundred kilometres in every direction, breaking through the ruddy ground to attack the defenders of Paraghast..

Chaos finds a way to make life inside a hive even more unpleasant. Note the "billions of soulds" trapped in the Hive. Also note that this is a bit of a tactical advantage for Chaos, as it can turn even the hive against it.

Page 16

On the Eldar Exodite world of Menimshemash, the Daemons of Chaos entered through the planet's 'world spirit'. This crystalline psychic network, criss-corssed the world, joning together all of the Exodite settlements, housing the souls of their dead frrom five thousand years of occupation.

Probably explains why Chaos like to attack the Eldar so much and why infinity circuits on craftworlds are so heavily guarded against Chaos.

Page 17

Without the physical limitations that restrtict mortal armies, a daemonic legion can appear and disappear at will.

They mention both massing for great attacks or spreading out globablly for randomized murder and slavery. This is indicative that, as long as they have power available (IE a warp storm or they aren't cut off) daemons can have tremendous mobility. This probably is the main reason why they bother with all the religious crap like wards n shit too.

Page 17

Those mortals with even the least psychic potential suffer terribly as the influx of Warp energy unleashes the latent power of their mind; immolating them with magical fire, freezing their blood, turning them into rocky statues, causing arteries to burst or brains to explode. Poltergeist activity and random bursts of devastating telekinesis and pyrokinesis can level buildings and slaughter thousands.

The dangers of even the weakest of untrained psykerrs.

Page 17

A daemonic invasion is all but impossible to stop by conventional means; the very act of warring against Daemons feeds their power with fear and hatred. Even as the Daemon's forms are destroyed, more of their kind attack through the Warp rift. Only the closing of the Warp rift can deprive Daemons of their powert and allow the daemonic legions ot eventually be destroyed.

..

Once the Warp Rift closes, teh DAemons are cut off from their unnatural realm and can be hunted down.

It also mentions that nothing often can be done save to fight the incrusion and survive until the warp rift runs its course. Of course fighting also feeds the rift, thus lengthening its opening, ,hence the problem. It also echoes some of Amberley's sentiments about the dangers of using an Exterminatus against Chaos worlds. This is perhaps one of the difficulties that makes fighitng Chaos incursions so tricky - it also tends to suggest that "attritional" warfare does not work against Chaos, since that will simply benefit the daemons more.

PAge 17

It is in these death throes that a daemonic army often causes the most harm, butchering its way across a planet to satisfy its vengeance, heaping untold thousands of souls upon the altars of sacrifice in order to gain as much psychic energy as possible to sustain their weakening presence. During the Voxteth Annihilation, the Daemon known as Skulltaker killed nearly 400 foes in the 48 hours of daemonic incursion, ,twice the number of his victims over the previous five months. On Galdemor, the violence committed by the Daemon legion of Braskh'har the Devious, a Herald of Slaanesh, saw thousands slaughtered and caused such grief that a new Warp rift opened, spilling forth the armies of Khal'Thar'rak the Bloodied Fang and a host of necrotic Nurgle Daemons led by Prince Gurglish the Ever-Rotting.

what happens once their access to the warp is cut off or weakened, but again highlights some of the dangers of fighting a chaos incursion - problems that would not occur even with a CSM or cultist attack per se.

Page 18

Such battles as are fought against daemonic incursion are utterly different from those against mortal foes. With the Daemons having complete freedom to move about the engulfed world, rigid battle lines, defensive strtuctures, and garrisons have little or no effect. To wage war against invading daemonic hosts, an army must be on its guard at all times, ready to respond to the appearance of its adversaries.

Repeating that convnetional warfare does shit all against Daemons. At best you can do is fight defensively and keep as alert as possible. Normal defenses (as we've seen in countless novels) don't work. Only the religious nonsense does

I think this also serves as yet another example why its foolish to call 40k armies "static" or "stagnant" when it comes ot tactics. They literally deal with shit no modern force (and some sci fi forces) would be unprepared for, and the often cited "WW1 style trench warfare/bayonet charge" tactics rarely if ever work against a whole horde of daemons (unless your goal is to keep them here longer, that is.)

Page 18

The power of Chaos infuses worlds trapped within a Warp rift, entwining the impossibilities of the Warp and the realm of the physical. When this corruption is sustained for an age, it creates planets known as Daemon worlds. DAemon worlds straddle the universes, ,and are as strange as the Realms of Chaos. Like the nightmarish territories of the Dark Poiwers, Daemon worlds are free from phsysical constraint, ,shaped by the emotions of mortals and moulded by the caprice of the world's daemonic rulers.

The genesis of a Chaos/Daemon world.

Page 18

In an age long past, the Eldar learned many secrets of the Warp from the ancient races of the Old Ones. With this knowledge the Eldar created the webway; a pan-galactic network of navigable tunnels that exist within the Warp, but also slightly apart from it. AT the height of their power, the Eldar could use the webway to travel thousands of light years quickly and safely. It linked all of their worlds, and their starships could move from one end of the galaxy to the other without entering realspace.

A bit of historical 40K backstory, with reference to the Eldar learning from the Old Ones (not the first time this has been brought up.) Interestingly this time around it indicates the webway was created by the Eldar, rather than the Old Ones (some sources have suggested otherwise.)

Its a pity we don't know how quickly "quickly" is, aside from being faster and safer than normal warp travel, but it does allow for massive scope.

Page 18

When the Fall of the Eldar occured, much of the webway was destroyed or damaged in the catastrophe. The webway still links the craftworlds upon which the majority of Eldar who escaped the Fall now live, but it is far from safe. The complex psychic wards of its construction fell into disrepair and the Realm of Chaos entered. Chaos energy has overcome vast tracts of the webway and made the impassible.

Score one more for Grimdark! One wonders if the reason the Eldar fail to maintain it as much as they used to is because of their dwindling numbers or because Chaos has infected it.

Page 19

With a lurch they stepped through the portal, drenched by bloody rain, and were immediately engulfed in a storm of small explosions as the Space Marines opened fire with their bolters. Two of Deathrender's cohort shimmered and disappeared in fountains of gore as the detonations tore apart their physical manifestations.

Unquantified number of bolter rounds blow apart daemons of unknown type, aside from being Khornate foot soldiers - probably Bloodletters since that is what Deathrender was mentioned as leading. Interesting here is that its implied that bolters have a sort of "proximity" damage effect from their explosive component, which makes some sense.

Page 19

Anarkh'ad'nron had found a battle tank to vent his fury upon. His axe chewed a long rent in its hull and sent a sponson spinning into the air, the halved remains of the gunner spattered across the ground. The Bloodthirster's whip wrapped around the tank's main gun, and a pull with godlike thews ripped the turret from the superstructure. Another axe blow and hte Predator's fuel tanks exploded. With a triumphant shout, Anakh'ad'nron bathed in the roaring flames.

Bloodthirster vs Predator.

Page 20

Archeodiviners of the Adeptus Astra Telepathica arrived to investigate what had become of Toreus and the three billion souls who had lived there. As soon as they reached the surface, the psykers were overwhelmed by the residual Chaos tainting the planet.

Not sure what kind of world it is.. probably civilised or hive from the descriptions. Not sure what an Archaeodiviner is, but at a guess they use their psychic powers to probe the past (a form of seance or augery perhaps, or reverse precog) to find out what happens.

Page 20

Theosaphus orbital stration: Catastrophic implosion. 1.3 million crew lost, presumed dead.

In orbit around Toreus.

Page 20

Resistancee against daemonic incursion concentrated in this area. Refugees and military forces eventually overwhelmved by rampant daemonic host of inestimable size. Approximate casualties: 1.2 billion.

Size of the PDF is less than 1.2 billion. Not really surprising, since thats about 1/3 the populace.

Page 21
- a week of portents of a warp rift opening around Toreus included: blood dripping form the claws of a golden eagle above an altar in a temple, Birds seen flying bawkards and all the clocks in a city stopping at two minutes to midnight, an Adeptus Arbites precinct overrun by a plague of carnivorous toads, and a grox born with the head of a fish and the tail of a lion.

This suggests (Aside from being amusing) that a Warp rift is not an immediate thing, the effects do gradually seep into the world it infects over time, growing more pronounced until the actual rift occurs. One imagines that if forces are sufficiently close by or mobilized sufficiently quickly, and warp conditions do not degenerate too much, preemptive measures might be taken to counter such an incursion (and the Ordo Malleus would almost certainly take notice and make an effort at some sort of countermeasure if they have sufficient forwarning, since a daemon incursion into normal space is, to the Ordo Malleus, a Bad Thing.)


Page 21

There was nothing left of Toreus as it had been known, and in a rare moment of mercy the planet was virus bombed to remove any vestige of life that migth have survived such hideous torment.

[/quote]

And likely to prevent Chaos from using the planet again, since its irrevocably tainted.

[Talk738kno]

A bit of historical 40K backstory, with reference to the Eldar learning from the Old Ones (not the first time this has been brought up.) Interestingly this time around it indicates the webway was created by the Eldar, rather than the Old Ones (some sources have suggested otherwise.)

Its a pity we don't know how quickly "quickly" is, aside from being faster and safer than normal warp travel, but it does allow for massive scope.

The new Rogue Trader book on the webway speed pg 357 "Can reduce impossible journeys to a few hour's travel." This is supported that on durations of passage sidebar on pg 184 of the same book, that it would take several years to get from one end to the galaxy to the other side, using warp travel. Giving the Eldar speed comparable to hyperdrive i think.

[Connor MacLeod]

Page 23

Spacecraft travel through it, capable of voyaging for thousands of light years.

..

Through astrotelepathy and the psychic Navigators, the worlds of the Imperium are able to maintain their fragile bonds. The Emperor's will may be mighty indeed, but his reach is long only because his fleets can travel through Warpspace.

A bit on the Imperium and the importance of the warp to it.

Page 23

While mankind would be a fraction of its current numbers and strength without the Warp, Chaos would also be much diminished without the rise of Mankind. The Chaos Gods drink the emotions and thoughts of Mankind, growing bloated with power in the process.

..

As Man has spread across the stars, their numbers have grown immeasurably, fuelling the Chaos Gods.

Indication of the interdependent nature of the relationship between man and chaos (and thus man and the Chaos Gods). Sice humanity is (currently) the largest empire, small wonder they have the greatest impact (and small wonder the Eldar have shit themselves over humanity's actions in the past - eg Inquisition War or whatnot. given what they've been through, I'd want to try to get a handle on it too if I thought another race might lead to another Chaos God.)

Page 23

Psykers can send their minds into the Warp, for example, while hte Navigators of the Imperium have a third eye that allows them to observe the Immaterium from their spacecraft. Even with these supernatural senses, it is impossible to truly see the Warp, for its energy has no substance, no light to refract and reflect, no matter to create scale or distance. Filtered through even the extra senses of a psychic being, the Warp is an analogue created by mortal minds to comrpehend the incomprehendible, to insteill order and reason on pure chaos.

Perception of the warp in psykers.

Page 23

Warpspace has many strange properties, most of which remain a mystery to the research cosmologians of the Adeptus Mechanicus and Adeptus Astra Telepathica.

..

Psykers use their powers by drawing upon the Warp, using their minds to siphon its unnatural energy ot hurl blasts of power, teleport objects, send theirt thoughts across space and perform countless other "miracles"

The warp remainds a mystery in many ways, yet PSykers can use it to perform feats such as teleportation and telepathy and attack.

Page 23

However the number of psykers has risen with every passing century, now as high as one in every few thousands souls on some planets.

"high end" frequency of psykers on some worlds - contrast this with 1 every 100,000 (or roughly thereabouts) mentioned in "Faith and Fire".

Page 23

Every time a psyker draws upon the Warp, he disturbs its flow, creating an eddy that may simply die away or be fed by other movements until it becomes a raging tempest that feeds a Chaos God. Each psyker causes a pinprick of disturbance within the Warp; each can be the seed of a Warpstrom; each can rouse a Chaos Power.

Interesting in that its not simply the "connection" to the warp that forms Chaos entities - its the active tapping of the warp - actually using it seems to do so. Of course untrained psykers can unconciously tap the warp due to strong emotion, but even "trained" psykers create a danger when they tap the warp (even with its necessity). And not just Chaos entities, but warp storms or other phenomena, although I would expect (given the ocean/weather analogy used for the Warp) conditions have to be "right" for such seeding to work - there is still an element of chance after all.

Page 23

Tempting mortals with the rward of power in return for worship, they recruit millions of devoted and fanatical followers - uncountable hordes on innumerable worlds, throughout the vast gulfs of space and time, ready to obey the Chaos Gods' every whim and command. Even in Death, the souls of these mortals who have dedicated their lives to a Chaos God are claimed by their patron power.

Probably not just to get more souls, but also to encourage more mortals to actively use the warp and create more ddies or ripples.

Page 24

Ever so rarely, however, the Gods might bestow the one prize every Champion covets - to be lifted from his mortal condition into the Realm of Chaos, to be reborn in mind and body as a mighty Daemon Prince.

I think this is the "immortality" they are often mentioned as conferring. It seems a perverse sort of reward though, considering that most daemons spend their time scheming to get back INTO real space.

Page 24

Humanity is treading the same path towards the darkness of Chaos, a crude mirror of the Eldar's own disgrace. All the signs are there for those with the wit and experience to see them. The growth of mutation, the ever-increasing numbers of psykers and the swelling legions of those sworn to the Dark Gods all point towards the impending catacylsm.

More grimdark, but it gives us a glimpse into what the Eldar went through before and during the Fall.

Page 24

The teeming thousands of trillions of humans spread across the galaxy provide an unmatched source of psychic energy to feed the Chaos Gods.

Quadrillions of humans in the galaxy - but its not specified that all are part of the imperium. Given the volume of the galaxy they occupy, though, its safe to say more than half would HAVE to be in the Imperium - this meshes with the new population figures established since 5th edition came out as well.


Page 24

Only through the strength and sacrificee of the Emepror are the most dangerous predations of Chaos kept at bay.

Which we know and have observed through other sources, of course.

Page 24

Through his powerful mind and the unconquerable might of his will, the Emperor shields humanity from the worst depredations of Chaos. His mind directs the Astronomican-beacon for spacecraft; his will binds the Imperium together and guides his followrs through the Emperor's Tarot; he is a god and father to his race.

..

The price to pay is high, for the Emperor must feed constantly upon the souls of his loyal subjects- millions of psykers every year are sacrificed to the artifices of the Golden Throne that sustain his immortal presencec.

Unless "millions" means "billions" it seems that a very small portion of those deemed too weak to server as astorpaths or sacntioned psykers (or better) actually die in service to the Emperor. It could be that most of these go to fuelling the AStronomican but this is unlikely, even the more recent fluff specifies that 10,000 psykers power it, and they tend to last a months easily - a mere "hundreds" mentioned dying every day which would be at best only part of what dies annually to serve the Emperor. There must be quite a surplus of weak psykers on Terra.

Page 26

Then some spark awoke in the AVatar's spirit, roused by the death and destruction wrought upon Kher-Ys. Fuelled by the instinct to kill and destroy, the Avatar blazed into life, and seized Heartlsayer in its unbrekable grip.

Didnt do much good, as the Greater Daemon broke free and blinded the avatar. It was souleless" and untamed, and the Daemon occupied the AVatar.

This suggests the purpose of the sacrifice to the Avatar is to allow it to be inhabited and guided by said sacrifice - a very high end sort of Wraithguard/wriathlord, in other words. Or something akin to the incunabula (Eg Brass Thief) from the Ravenor novels.

Page 28

Perhaps the most fearful weapons ever created, these gigantic axes can cleave battle tanks in two, or hamstring a charging carnifex with a single blow. Not only they destroy a foe's body, but often consume his soul too, offering them to the Lord of Battle.

Bloodthirster's axe, as I recall.

Page 28

To this end they can strike down a distant foe with a long barbed whip, throwing axes or imply the shatteirng power of their deafening bellow.

Bloodthirsters have some ranged attacks.

Page 29

All of them (keepers of Secrets), however, are several times the height of a man, with jewel-like eyes and sinuous movements, and they all have a s plended crown of thorns.

Common features of Keeper of Secrets.

Page 30

filled with unholy vitality, a Great Unclean One is impervious to pain and physical wounds have little effect on it; plasma-burnt flesh quickly transforms into suppurating scars, bullet wounds become oozing pockmarks and tissues shredded by las-blasts forms into warty, crusted scabs.

effects of weapons fire on a Daemonic "Great Unlcean One" - plasma weapons burn, bullets do what bullets always do (poke holes in targets by mass and velocity) and lasers work by explosive/mechanical damage .

Page 31

They [Lords of Change] can turn scores of mortals to boneless spawn with a mere glance, ,destroy an armoured vehicle with the flick of a finger or wrench the soul out of the mouth of the mightiest wariror with a single world.

..

Magic is the power to change - to change matter into energy, unliving into living, lead into the gold, and the opposite of all these.

reputed powers of a Lord of Change (likely subject ot the whims of Tzeentch anyhow)

Page 31

Their great master, who knows all, has granted them [Lords of Change] the boon of seeing into the near future, a power that makes them almost impossible to defeat. How can one fight against an enemy that knows in advancee every move and every trick you are going to attempt.

..

A Lord of Change can be brought down by the weapons of mere mortals, but only when its demise is part of Tzeentch's schemes, and the Ultimate Deceiver tricks his won Daemon by sending it false visions of the future.

Lords of change have some sort of constnatly on, short term precognition akin to Jedi, but apparently much more reliable. Its implied (although whether this is true or not is up for debate) that it only fails if Tzeentch decides it does.

[Connor MacLeod]

Next Chaos Daemons update... more daemonic creatures...

Page 32

Be that as it may, it is a fact that no armour forged by mortals can withstand the assault of these dark swords...

Bloodletters Hellblades.

Page 32

Unlike other Daemons, Bloodletters march to war in regimented formations, for their creator is the Lord of Battle and they are united in the cause of spilling blood.

Some daemons of Khorne are not bersrkers, but can apparently use some form of discipline and tactics, at least up until melee is achieved. They're still no Blood Pact, of course.

Page 32

Some of these Daemon-officers (Heralds) are powerful enough that they can thrust their wailing Hellblade into the armoured hull of enemy battle tanks, ,tearing apart steel plates and armoured hatches in their frenzied eagnerness..

The strength of high end Bloodletters - the officers I believe.

Page 33

Plaguebearers are formed from the energy of mortals that died from Nurgle's Rot, the Lord of Decay's most virulent and deadly blessing. The souls of those infected by this disease are slowly leeched into Nurgle's realm, appearing as warty seed pods growing from the cracked branches of gloomy willows. Each pod swells and ripens as the Nurgle's Rot destroys its host in the real world and the nascent Plaguebearer feeds upon the victim's dying energies.

The nature of their creation would suggest Plaguebearers are incredibly numerous - one wonders if the Plaguebearer analogues of other Chaos Gods are also formed from mortal bodies/souls also...

Page 36

With steel-hard fangs the length of a dagger, powered by uncannily strong jaws, a red skin as tough as mesh armour and razor sharp claws, the Flesh hounds are a terrible foe for any mortal warrior.

Offensive and defensive capabilites of a Fleshound.

Page 39

Laughter suddenly turns to panic though, as the Flamers suddenly close in at unexpected speed ad unleash roaring gouts of alcehmical fire from their arms, incinerating anything in their path.

Of course their flames are nothing like the fire mortals have experiencecd on their own worlds, wehre the laws of nature apply. THe effects of the Fire of Change are as unpredictable s they are devastating - sometimes burning metal, flesh and stone equally to ashes in a multi-hued conflagration, sometimes turning to frozen crystal anything they come into contact with , while in other cases they might just spray the surprised enemies iwth an iridescent cascade of sweet-tasting liquor. They have been known to project lethal gasses that dissolve all living tissue, leaving behind only empty armour on uniforms, while on other occasions they have exactly the opposite effect, leaving the victims untouched but naked, unarmed and defenceless in the middle of the battlefield.

Flamers of Tzeentch "incinerate" their targets, although its a technobabble magical incineration (in keeping with the crazy nature of the Lordsof Change) but can use other forms of attack also. They're also pretty unpredictable.


Page 40

Khorne takes the Daemonsword known as Kartoth the blood hunger, which is capable of cutting through not only matter but also time, and hides it within one of his Flesh Hounds.

truth or myth? I suspect myth, but in 40K one could never be sure. I would NOT neccesairly use this as proof in a debate though, since its easy to refute on the grounds of "it may not be literal" hte entire context of this passage is that of a story rather than hard fact or analysis.

Page 40

These dim-witted brutes (Juggernauts) are covered in solid metal plates and have mechanical elements in their bodies, testaments to the part that the armourers and weapon-smiths of Khorne have in their creation.

Even Khorne appears to have R&D departments, of a sort.

Page 40

Juggernauts are slow, but nigh unstoppable, and their charging bulk can ram into most enemy vehicles and send them flying, or flatten squad after squad of mortal warriors.

..

Only anti-tank weapons have a realistic change of penetrating its armour and stopping its rampaging mass.

Juggernauts. Self explanatory.

Page 41

With this tongue the Steed of Slaanesh can taste the desire of mortals, following its scent for many miles.

Detection/tracking range of a Steed of Slaanesh.

[Connor MacLeod]

Last update for Codex: Chaos Daemons. Next up.. I dunno. Will have to think on that. Was thinking CSM maybe.

Page 43

Viscious shoals of screamers often follow ships in the Warp, patiently probing its psyhic defences. Should a weakness be found, the Screamers stream though the gap in its shields and attack the hull. In the mortal realm, a tank's turret or Dreadnougth's sarcophagus provide scant protection agianst jaws that canbe used to prise open an armoured starship!

Screamers.

Page 43

In order to traverse the Warp, a starship must be enveloped in a protective bubble. Imperial ships create a skin of reality around their hulls with a devicee known as a Gellar field. The creation of Gellar field technology is a secret held closely by the Adeptus Mechanicus and Adeptus Astra Telepathica. The Gellar field projects a psychic ward against the energy of Warpspace, protecting the ship against the corruption of raw Chaos as well as daemonic attack. However, just as Daemons can break through into the mortal universe, they can also breach the defenses of a Gellar field. Sometimes this begins with the possession of crew members, other times full physical manifestation of Daemons can overwhelm a ship. Such vessels are left to drift through Warpspace, and are deposited somewhere in space and time as sinister ghostships.

..

For this reason, Imperial warships are under standing orders to destroy these ghostships on contact.

Gellar fields are mentioned, and the mention of Ghost ships. In the case of the former, the implication is that its working is a collaborative effort between the AdMech and AdAstra Telepathica, which in turn suggests psykers are involved somehow (but exactly how is unknown, but the possibilities would be gruesome to contemplate.)

In the case of the latter, I wonder if the Ghost ships are similar to the BFg "daemon ships" we hear about.

Page 44

This accursed place is known as the Forge of Souls, where the blind, ever-mutating Daemon craftsmen of Chaos eterenally hammer at their creations in cyclopean smitheries.

...

By means of perverse technologies of the artisans of Chaos, daemonic energies are fused with arcane metals to create grgeat jagged blades, weeping swords, barbed steel whips and other potent weapons and talismans...

Daemonic equivalent to forge worlds?

Page 44

These terrifying creatures (Soul Grinders) are the fusion of the most powerufl daemonic entities with machines of war that originiate outside the Immaterium, but already have felt the touch of Chaos. These are often the wreckled remains of great Daemon engines and other possessed vehicles, like the mighty Battle Titans of the Legio Mortis, or the rampaging Defilers created by the traitor Legions. All this ruined material is absorbed into the warp as the flotsam and jetsam of a galaxy at war, flowing from real spacec into the Immaterium through the eye of Terror, the Maelstrom, and the other loci where different realities touch.

Chaos uses realspace materials and vehicles salvaged from the innumerable wars across the galaxy that somehow find their way into the warp, meaning they are also scavengers.

Page 44

- Forge of Souls are like Forge Worlds in that they are utterly independeent of the rest of Chaos. Should a Chaos God try to conquer it, all Soul Grinders will fight in its defense, irrespective of prior loyalties.

Page 44

Their daemonic nature (Soul Grinders) allows them to appear out of thin air where least expected, and their creamite hull, animated and protected by the supernatural energies of the Immateirum, makes them invulnerable to small arms fire and resilient to the hits of all but the most powerful anti-tank weapons.

Soul Grinders are increidbly durable and can teleport. joy.

Page 44

- its smoking maw is capable of unleashing the baleful energies of the Warp itself against the enemy. These attacks can take many different forms, all as lethal as they are bizarre to the eyes of mortal warriors.

Soul Grinders have ranged (energy?) attacks, too.


Page 45

The thing [daemon] was totally oblivious to the bolter shells that met its entrance. White-hot warpflame erupted from his maw and engulfed the Space MArines, instantly turning some of the armoured warriors into a cloud of ashes.

Assuming this isnt technobabble incineration a'la flamers of Tzeentch (which isnt indicated, but oh well) turning multiple astartes into clouds of ash is easily a multi-GJ event, although duration isnt known but assumed to be a short interval.

Page 46

The champion becomes a Daemon Prince, a great asset to the Dark Gods, with powers that rival those of the GReater Daemons.

Some daemon princes at least can match (or exceed?) Greater Daemons.

Page 47

Though powerful enough to have felled an army, Skarbrand's strike only opened a small chink in the armour of the Blood God...

Assuming no mythogloical hyperbole, that probably gives a relative indicator of just how powerful/durable Khorne is, and how strong some of his greatest daemons are.

Page 48

Rusted pipes funnel bacteria through fungal sieves, distilling poisons procured from a thousand million worlds and the furthest reaches of the ever-changing Realms of Chaos.

A "billion worlds" with disease... that implies they have an ecology. No indication of the breakdown of worlds though.

Page 49

Tzzentch's gaze encompasses all of the past and all of the present. The future, however, is a different matter. There are infinite futures, fragmented into uncountable threads, ever changing, ever twisting. Events in the present generate a new thread, which instnatly intertwines millions of others, created by the actions of creatures in all corners of the universe. Not even the Great Sorcerer can hold all of the threads in his mighty intellect.

Even Tzeentch's precog isn't perfect.

Page 73

The Daemon may open a small conduit to the Immaterium, exposing the victim to the touch of the raw stuff of the Warp for a second. This often causes uncontrollable, lethal mutation in a mortal, at times turning the victim into a many-armed monstrosity.

the warp and mutation.


PAge 73

Some Daemon Princes were oncee mighty Lords from a Space Marine traitor Legion or renegade Chapter, and their bodies are still clad in the power armour of the Adeptus Astarttes. Other Daemons may be blessed by their patron god with an impenetrable metal skin or a suit of Warp-forged armour.

Its implied that "magical" chaos armour could easily be equal to CSM armor.

Page 73

Daemonic Gaze Rays of unholy energy burst from the eyes of the Daemon, incinerating its enemies.

Another incineration reference.

Page 74

Bolt of Tzeentch: A solid beam of multi-coloured light strikes out of the Daemon's fingers and annihilates anything it touches, melting metals and vapourising flesh.

One assumes that this is literal melting or vaporization, but again given Tzeentch's flamers and Tzeetnch's nature in general.. hard to say. Could be calced if we ever have a target hit by it though.

Page 82

- a story here recounts that not all the Gods of the Eldar may be dead. Isha was reputedly rescued by Nurgle from Slaanesh, and is being kept prisoner and used to experiment upon by Nurgle to see how nasty his brews are. (She also reputedly whispers to mortals the cures for what she has been infected with.) The implication here is that she helps all mortals and not just Eldar ones. Could "Isha" simply be the Eldar aspect of this particular Chaos entity?

That some eldar gods survive leads to some other interesting questions. Was there a point in the past where other "Good" Chaos gods existed - not just the Eldar ones? ( I assume most eldar gods were good, at least) If so, was there a point in the past where the bad sides of Chaos (possibly due to the fuckery of the Old Ones) overcame the good ones and killed or imprisoned them like Isha is?

Page 83

As El'rahem and his allies were evacuated, the world was virus bombed by sleek, black Inquisition execution ships.

The Inquistion apparently keeps ships around for the sole purpose of exterminating worlds. It is rather interesting that they ar ewilling to evacuate demonstrably "loyal" subjects ven if they consign the rest of the world to oblivion - and this isn't the first time its happened either (the other IIRC happened during the Macharian crusades)

[Wing Commander MAD]

Connor, regarding the eldar gods, are we sure that they were actually chaos gods/warp entities in the same vein as Khorne, Nurgle etc.? I'm not sure if it's ever been discussed here, but I distinctly remember there being theories bandied about that the eldar gods(as well as Gork and Mork, hell even the Emperor) were/are actually Old Ones (mind you very powerful ones, maybe even "ascended" ones) that survivided the Enslaver Plauge at the end of the War in Heaven? This might make some degree sense of the Isha story, as the Old Ones were actually of the physical universe, yet undisputed masters of the warp (at least by standards of those from the physical universe), and supposedly messed with life across the galaxy "molding it in thier image" or somesuch. If this were the case, it might make sense for Nurgle to acquire a "base sample" that all others are "derived" from to test on so to speak. Then again, his various concoctions have warp based elements to them (they're not a purely warp phenomenon right?) that would no doubt muddle with certain barriers that would impede something purely biological like species and body chemistry. Not sure how or if this would affect your musings on "Good" chaos gods/eldar gods , but I'd certainly like to hear your take on it and this seems the best time and place to ask.

[white_rabbit]

In a similar vein to Warhammer, the "Gods" of 40k apparently have several lineages.

The Eldar pantheon is described in Liber Chaotica as initially being a bunch of artificially created superweapons, designed to combat the C'tan, who then become warp gods based on actual Eldar mythology.

I get the impression that they built some badass psychic weapon, called it " Khaine" after their Lord of Incredible Violence and were a little surprised to find out it decided it WAS Khaine, and had become the genuine nexus of the appropriate emotional and mental mojo in the warp.

Xenology hints that there are archetypal gods that have appeared to multiple races, some of which might have been genuine warp entities, others which might have been a C'tan or Old One playing silly buggers. The Deciever and the Dragon have both set themselves up as gods before, as opposed to just eating everybody like the Nightbringer.

As far as the Chaos gods go, it gets a bit tangled, various sources describe their existence as independent of linear time, so Tzeentch was around for millions of years, they variously exist/perceive future past time simultaneously, but explicitly not perfectly.

So on the one hand, Tzeentch, Nurgle were born from humanity, on the other hand, they existed previously, in some examples millions of years before.

Slaanesh itself had heralds, literal slaaneshi daemons that were involved in its birth, even before it was born, Tzeentch and Nurgle admonish Khorne for resisting, claiming it was predestined to happen, blah blah bullshit bullshit.

Q'ah is an Old One mentioned in Xenology who is implied to have existed/been in hiding in the warp, who was discovered and destroyed by Slaanesh, leaving only a race of bizarre shadow monsters who appear to be portions of its consciousness.

Not sure what kind of world it is.. probably civilised or hive from the descriptions. Not sure what an Archaeodiviner is, but at a guess they use their psychic powers to probe the past (a form of seance or augery perhaps, or reverse precog) to find out what happens.

It'll probably be either an "auto-seance" , similar to the ones Ravenor and Eisenhorn do. Although I recall a comic where an Arbites Marshall brings a psyker along to pull memories from the head of a dead Judge, on a genestealer infested world. Whether or not he's extracting memories or using it as a kind of psychopomp, I don't know.

[Connor MacLeod]

In a similar vein to Warhammer, the "Gods" of 40k apparently have several lineages.

The Eldar pantheon is described in Liber Chaotica as initially being a bunch of artificially created superweapons, designed to combat the C'tan, who then become warp gods based on actual Eldar mythology.

I get the impression that they built some badass psychic weapon, called it " Khaine" after their Lord of Incredible Violence and were a little surprised to find out it decided it WAS Khaine, and had become the genuine nexus of the appropriate emotional and mental mojo in the warp.

Xenology hints that there are archetypal gods that have appeared to multiple races, some of which might have been genuine warp entities, others which might have been a C'tan or Old One playing silly buggers. The Deciever and the Dragon have both set themselves up as gods before, as opposed to just eating everybody like the Nightbringer.

YEah, I remember that., given that the Ork sand Eldar were "engineered" as weapons, and they both seem to have "gods" of their own which perhaps act as control/guidance mechanisms as well as superweapons (Although probably more superweapon in the Eldar case, given we see the Eldar gods actually engage in direct warfare with the C'Tan more) I figured pretty much along the lines of what you described. And that it gets out of the Old Ones control is also sensible, considering everything else they fucked up on and what we know about Chaos entities frm this and other sources.

so basically the answer is as WR said, cuz he said it better

As far as the Chaos gods go, it gets a bit tangled, various sources describe their existence as independent of linear time, so Tzeentch was around for millions of years, they variously exist/perceive future past time simultaneously, but explicitly not perfectly.

So on the one hand, Tzeentch, Nurgle were born from humanity, on the other hand, they existed previously, in some examples millions of years before.

Slaanesh itself had heralds, literal slaaneshi daemons that were involved in its birth, even before it was born, Tzeentch and Nurgle admonish Khorne for resisting, claiming it was predestined to happen, blah blah bullshit bullshit.

I figured that meant they existed more as more separate and individual beings. We know that the great Chaos Powers are composed of lots and lots of individual spirits/souls, and daemons, and that it creates daemons by basically breaking off a little bit of itself. So basically you'd have lots of little "sub daemons" existing as aspects of the larger being before they coalesced. Likely there was some sort of primitive "gestalt" type thingy (eg "Slaanesh" sleeping or slumbering before the Fall occurs yet still influencing the Eldar) that was a "pseudo-God" until whatever criticla mass is needed to form said God is reached.

Q'ah is an Old One mentioned in Xenology who is implied to have existed/been in hiding in the warp, who was discovered and destroyed by Slaanesh, leaving only a race of bizarre shadow monsters who appear to be portions of its consciousness.

Heh. I'd forgotten that. I'd never paid Xenology much attention.