SDN World 3 Commentary Thread I

[Minister of Pigeonry]

Ships that won't commission before 1 January 1926 don't count toward tonnage at all.

Seaplane tenders will still count as auxiliaries. MTBs do not. Sub chasers... would, I believe.

Okay then: Let's see what I can do with all that combat tonnage I just saved (I may now add some monitors to my fleet). So are we going with auxiliary tonnage = 1/4th combat tonnage? If so, then I'm pretty sure Norseman is well over that limit.

I went with 1/3 myself. It was what others did and, if I remember correctly, 1/3 was cleared.

[Steve]

I won't quibble with 1/3rd.

[Steve]

Actually, Rome's in Tuscany, so why would they be dominated by Constantinople?

[Lascaris]

Actually, Rome's in Tuscany, so why would they be dominated by Constantinople?

Ask Fin who wrote as much

[K. A. Pital]

So, from which nations came what?

1) Afghanistan - 1 division for internal security purposes - assigned to reinforce the Soviet-Chinese border in Central Asia, not to be used on the Soviet-Manchurian front.

2) Germany - roughly 2x regiments of infantry worth of volunteers

3) Byzantium - roughly ??? volunteers, expats and Russian sympathizers in the nation organized a donation campaign which yielded some old railway rolling stock and jewelry

4) Brazil - lots of men (5 full divisions worth)

5) Mongolia - ???, assisting with shipment of weapons and supplies to the Soviet Union

6) France - roughly 1 division of volunteers

... in total, the foreign forces coming to the USSR are worth more than 7,5 divisions so far (at least that number coming is definite). However, as I said, it would take time for them to arrive and be deployed.

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

Actually, Rome's in Tuscany, so why would they be dominated by Constantinople?

Ask Fin who wrote as much

Well, the Vatican I would imagine, jumps at the behest of the Patriarch of Constantinople. I would imagine some time during the Reformation, troops from S. Italy was sent up north to save his ass at least once.

[Steve]

Why? Italy remained solidly Catholic.

[Akhlut]

So, from which nations came what?

1) Afghanistan - 1 division for internal security purposes - assigned to reinforce the Soviet-Chinese border in Central Asia, not to be used on the Soviet-Manchurian front.

2) Germany - roughly 2x regiments of infantry worth of volunteers

3) Byzantium - roughly ??? volunteers, expats and Russian sympathizers in the nation organized a donation campaign which yielded some old railway rolling stock and jewelry

4) Brazil - lots of men (5 full divisions worth)

5) Mongolia - ???, assisting with shipment of weapons and supplies to the Soviet Union

6) France - roughly 1 division of volunteers

... in total, the foreign forces coming to the USSR are worth more than 7,5 divisions so far (at least that number coming is definite). However, as I said, it would take time for them to arrive and be deployed.

Mongolia is strictly not sending volunteer regiments to either country. Travel to both countries is being restricted, though a trickle of volunteers might reach both sides.

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

Why? Italy remained solidly Catholic.

That's because of the schism. But the Pope has always needed a protector. Be it the Holy Roman Empire, or France. But during the reformation, remember Rome got sacked by a bunch of unruly mercenaries. If the Pope can't rely on his traditional protectors, who does he go to? He would as usual extend a begging bowl back to Constantinople, his oldest protector.

[Steve]

It got sacked as a result of another tussle between the HRE and the Papacy, and the Pope became a hostage. And that, in turn, helped result in England going Protestant due to the Emperor not allowing the Pope to annul Henry VIII's marriage to his aunt, Catherine of Aragon.

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

It got sacked as a result of another tussle between the HRE and the Papacy, and the Pope became a hostage. And that, in turn, helped result in England going Protestant due to the Emperor not allowing the Pope to annul Henry VIII's marriage to his aunt, Catherine of Aragon.

Of course. But what if the Pope could scream for help before it got sacked? Under Basil II, he did scream for help when the Normans got frisky if I recall vaguely.

[Steve]

Actually, it makes more sense that the Pope could have spent the centuries skillfully playing the Byzantines and Habsburgs against each other to maintain control in central Italy. Sure, he may have asked the Emperor in Constantinople for help once and a while, but it probably worked the other way as well, and at various times in history the Pope also looked to France for aid and introduced a third power into the equation.

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

Actually, it makes more sense that the Pope could have spent the centuries skillfully playing the Byzantines and Habsburgs against each other to maintain control in central Italy. Sure, he may have asked the Emperor in Constantinople for help once and a while, but it probably worked the other way as well, and at various times in history the Pope also looked to France for aid and introduced a third power into the equation.

That will work sure. It has happened before with regard to Charlemagne.

[K. A. Pital]

OOC note: according to my declared borders (and the Treaty of Nerchinsk), there is no river Amur. No section of the Heilongjiang is shared in control with the Soviets. Additionally, there is no town of Skovorodino, or Soviet controlled town of Zeya. In fact, part of the left bank of the Shilka is also mine.

Just take it as if Skovorodino and Zeya were north of the whatever border you plotted.

Before the outbreak of war, the Navy's aircraft had been stripped from the carriers and seconded to the Army Air Corp

So while I post any deployments and re-assignments from anywhere to the front, you just fiat them. Good. I will fiat the same in the future, and will always behave in the same fashion.

The opposing M-24 floatplanes didn't stand a chance

You have no idea of air combat, right? Recon planes don't "fight", and they do not need to "stand a chance" against enemy planes. They are used for recon. Detection from the ground in this era is craptacular, and the planes would veer off if there were a serious attempt to attack them. Moreover, they operated in a very limited border area, not going deeper into Manchurian territory. Why would I send my recon planes into air combat?

Few fortifications fell to the heavy artillery, despite heavy shelling.

Yeah right. Concentrating 1000 pieces of artillery, including ultra-heavy howitzers, does NOTHING to destroy fortifications. No matter that heavy artillery is actually critical to have a chance to take a well-fortified position.

They rampaged behind the Soviet lines, losing some of their number, but successfully destroying additional barges, and even attacking the railroad guns brought by the Communists.

Attacking the TM-8? There'd be armored trains guarding that, and those have automatic small caliber artillery. Not good for the planes.

The bombing campaign had been largely ineffective. Only a single fortification had been struck, wiping out it's cupola mounted HMG ... The bombs were spread far and wide, simply due to the fact that it had been done at night.

Why was it done at night? Did I specify that? Night bombing is effectively impossible in the era; planes would only operate during light.

These were used to great effect as the Soviet troops struggled through the swampy, marshy bed of the Hailar He.

Like I said, the area of the marsh is very small near Priargunsk, and I even provided a map; you'll have to do better.

Unfortunately, they could only shoot in the direction that they were moving, and by the time they could range on the fortifications, many had been hit in the side.

How? By what? Do you realize the Mendeleev tank was basically a 100 mm armored box on all sides? Neither your AT guns, nor your rifles could do that - and your artillery in the forts is likewise forward firing. The M-tank is more an artillery platform than a tank; it's not meant to be used against infantry, so even the very idea of it being caught under fire and somehow damaged is preposterous. Against infantry the M-tank also had a turret machine gun on top of the hull; so it's not like you could freely assault it from any side with infantry.

Their threat description hadn't included protection against the .5t(15mm) HMGs that the Manchu Army utilized. The round had originally been designed for use in anti-tank rifles, and their performance was an overmatch for the light armor on the tanks.

The tower armor of the Russian Renault version of FT-17 actually had 22mm armor versus 16mm.

Manchu Army has contained the breakthroughs at Line Yi.

No, you haven't. I specifically attacked before you actually brought your reserves to full fighting capacity. You specified Line Yi as manned by reservists. And guess what, those units are off-hands until six months pass since the moment of activation. They wouldn't even have manned positions at the time. Retreating forces would have to man positions under constant fire from the pursuing army.

So effectively the Soviet Army broke through ACTIVE units and then, well... it attacked the units behind them, which are still UNDEPLOYED. And you know what happens when deployed units attack undeployed ones, right? I mean, everyone does. Undeployed units die and get captured, fast.

Total is approximately 125 thousand troops. 70 tanks: 40 light, 30 medium plus an unspecified number of Chinese tanks also are supporting the defense.

Did you bring and deploy "unspecified numbers" of Chinese tanks there by magic?

All have been prepared for gas warfare.

Really?

In the Western front, the Soviets are stopped ahead of line Yi.

Really? Stopped before Hailar? What's there to stop me? Your undeployed units, where I have a 1:10 superiority? Bullshit.

Only a single Manchu division was on the line

Yeah, and it is now destroyed, dispersed or captured - choose one.

An additional reinforced Corps is being shuttled from the south by rail, and should reach the line of defense in a day.

CORPS? You both transport and deploy a CORPS in the matter of ONE DAY? That's nuts. I'll do the same if you don't mind. A rifle corps is 2-3 divisions. That's around 30-45 thousand men. You claim to transport and deploy them in the matter of 1 day? I understand transporting a division in 1 day (and even that is very straining), but an entire corps?

You have a concept of logistics of the era or not?

[Lonestar]

CORPS? You both transport and deploy a CORPS in the matter of ONE DAY? That's nuts. I'll do the same if you don't mind. A rifle corps is 2-3 divisions. That's around 30-45 thousand men. You claim to transport and deploy them in the matter of 1 day? I understand transporting a division in 1 day (and even that is very straining), but an entire corps?

You have a concept of logistics of the era or not?

Why not? The Confederates shuttled, well, not a corps, but 12,000 men to meet up with Beauregard the day before the First Battle of Bull Run on a 1860s railroad to give them numerical parity with the Union army marching towards Richmond. And this was a haphazard "everyone get on the train and GO!" deal, as opposed to semi-modern dusting off of plans and schedules.

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

CORPS? You both transport and deploy a CORPS in the matter of ONE DAY? That's nuts. I'll do the same if you don't mind. A rifle corps is 2-3 divisions. That's around 30-45 thousand men. You claim to transport and deploy them in the matter of 1 day? I understand transporting a division in 1 day (and even that is very straining), but an entire corps?

You have a concept of logistics of the era or not?

Why not? The Confederates shuttled, well, not a corps, but 12,000 men to meet up with Beauregard the day before the First Battle of Bull Run on a 1860s railroad to give them numerical parity with the Union army marching towards Richmond. And this was a haphazard "everyone get on the train and GO!" deal, as opposed to semi-modern dusting off of plans and schedules.

Without their accompanying artillery and fire support?

[Lonestar]

Without their accompanying artillery and fire support?

IIRC, once Joe Johnston's guys disembarked at Manassas, the infantry out-walked the artillery to the battlefield site. Of course, artillery in those days was LOS. Not in the 20s.

[K. A. Pital]

Why not? The Confederates shuttled, well, not a corps, but 12,000 men

12 000 men is my rifle division. Like I said, shifting a division - fine. A REINFORCED corps, which presumes divisions are at full military strength, i.e. between 13 000 and 15 000 men each, and there's 2-3 of them, thus 30-45k men in total? Sorry, but that simply won't fly.

I didn't attack early just for the fun of it. I calculated realistic deployment schedules. Beowulf fiats forces. That is unacceptable.

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

Without their accompanying artillery and fire support?

IIRC, once Joe Johnston's guys disembarked at Manassas, the infantry out-walked the artillery to the battlefield site. Of course, artillery in those days was LOS. Not in the 20s.

It's tad suicidal in this current day and age in 1925 for infantry to be marching without fire support and artillery don't you think?

[loomer]

Yeah, I'm sorry, but I gotta call bullshit on that as well, Beowulf. It just reeks of one big 'No, fuck you.' instead of an actual, measured response.

[Raj Ahten]

Rather than just offer up mostly half trained recruits to the defense of Manchuria, I figure trained pilots would be a much more valuable commodity. Besides, we all need to get our Spanish civil war style experience going. But instead of Condor Squadron there will be the 24th volunteer squadron .

[Lonestar]

It's tad suicidal in this current day and age in 1925 for infantry to be marching without fire support and artillery don't you think?

I suppose I can point out the obvious, that said artillery could position several miles behind while the infantry moves up and/or digs in. It doesn't have to move as fast as the infantry.

12 000 men is my rifle division. Like I said, shifting a division - fine. A REINFORCED corps, which presumes divisions are at full military strength, i.e. between 13 000 and 15 000 men each, and there's 2-3 of them, thus 30-45k men in total? Sorry, but that simply won't fly.

Yeah, and the shuttle happened on a 1860s railroad with no planning other than marching the army southwest until you found a train station, and seizing the first train that comes across. As opposed to semi-modern staff work, planning, and logistics. If Joe Johnston can pull it off overnight in a (at best) semi-industrial environment with no prior planning, Beowulf should be able to move more. A lot more. This isn't Germany in '44 where every bridge between the Rhine and Poland has been hit, bringing movement to a crawl. It's the first weeks of a conflict with very primitive aircraft on both sides. Sheer congestion is going to be the major problem.

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

It's tad suicidal in this current day and age in 1925 for infantry to be marching without fire support and artillery don't you think?

I suppose I can point out the obvious, that said artillery could position several miles behind while the infantry moves up and/or digs in. It doesn't have to move as fast as the infantry.

Even the infantry support guns? I recall by end of WWI, many of these were in deployment as they are.

[K. A. Pital]

I also would directly request the moderators to remove the following heap of bullshit.

...as the Soviet troops struggled through the swampy, marshy bed of the Hailar He. The marshes were narrower st Starotsurukhatuy, than elsewhere along the Hailar He, but it was still over a mile wide at that point, and troops and machines simply bogged down during the assault. As they began their assault, parachute flares were sent skyward, courtesy of each fortification's mortar. Many of the armored cars which were to support the assault simply sank down to their axles and failed to move.

I sent engineers to help with the roads - and anyhow, "over a mile" of marshes never stopped the Soviet Union in real life when it attacked Manchuria (Manchukuo). The point at Starotsurukhaitui was likewise chosen, and the units attacked efficiently. These extremely small "marshes" - quite ordinary for a river to have on it's sides - never posed any problem whatsoever.

If Beowulf thinks that my army simply sent men and machines into the bog - when it had like, 20 years to study that river's banks and terrain, and specifically prepare for a crossing, that's just preposterous.

I haven't RPed a single unit of Beowulf's so far. He considers allright to RP my units.

[CmdrWilkens]

Lonestar, the rail confusion is exactly why you shouldn't be able to do it in a day. Part of the problem France confronted in 1870-1 and then solved in 1914 was how to properly utilize the rail system...but to do so required massive investment based on plans that spent years in preparation along with schedules that took up whole books. Suddenly shifting an entire corps unless it was part of a preplanned deployment schedule CAN be done but it should wreck the remainder of the deployments behind it causing logistics pile ups, starving troops or guns running short of ammunition.

It should also be noted that the movement at Manassas was over less than 90 miles along one of the best available rail line and the troops still had issues deploying properly with FAR less equipment than a 1920s division takes with them.