Projections from exit polls suggest that voters in Switzerland have backed a referendum proposal to ban the building of minarets.
The result is not yet official, but the BBC's correspondent in Berne says if it is confirmed, it would be a surprise.
The proposal was backed by the Swiss People's Party (SVP), the largest party in parliament, which claims minarets are a sign of Islamisation.
Opponents say a ban would discriminate and that the ballot has stirred hatred.
The government opposes a ban.
Switzerland is home to some 400,000 Muslims and has just four minarets. Official referendum results are due at 1700 GMT.
Under the Swiss system, a referendum result is not binding unless a majority of canton voting districts approve it, as well as a majority of voters.
'Huge surprise'
The BBC's Imogen Foulkes, in Bern, says the voting trends are very bad news for the Swiss government which had urged voters to reject a ban on minarets, fearing unrest among the Muslim community and damage to Switzerland's relations with Islamic countries.
But voters worried about rising immigration, and with it the rise of Islam, seem to have ignored the government's advice, our correspondent says.
Partial results from the poll which closed at 1100 GMT indicated that the German-speaking canton of Lucerne accepted the ban, while French-speaking cantons Geneva and Vaud voted against, news agency AFP reported.
"The initiative would appear to be accepted, there is a positive trend. It's a huge surprise," French-language television said, 30 minutes after polls closed at midday.
Islam is the most widespread religion after Christianity in Switzerland, but it remains relatively hidden.
There are unofficial Muslim prayer rooms, and planning applications for new minarets are almost always refused.
Supporters of a ban claim that allowing minarets would represent the growth of an ideology and a legal system - Sharia law - which are incompatible with Swiss democracy.
But others say the referendum campaign has incited hatred. On Thursday the Geneva mosque was vandalised for the third time during the campaign, according to local media.
Before the vote, Amnesty International warned that the ban would violate Switzerland's obligations to freedom of religious expression.
'Political symbol'
Sunday's referendum was held after the People's party collected 100,000 signatures from eligible voters within 18 months calling for a vote.
SVP member of parliament Ulrich Schluer said the referendum campaign had helped integration by encouraging debate. He rejected the charge of discrimination.
"Every Muslim is allowed to come together with other Muslims to have the religion together," he told the BBC.
"But a minaret is a political symbol. It is a symbol for introducing, step-by-step, Sharia rights also in Switzerland, parallel to the Swiss law which is a result of Swiss democracy. And this is the problem. It is nothing against Muslims."
In recent years many countries in Europe have been debating their relationship with Islam, and how best to integrate their Muslim populations.
France focused on the headscarf, while in Germany there was controversy over plans to build one of Europe's largest mosques in Cologne.
Last projection says that the vote for the ban is around 59%.
To give you an idea, this is the poster that the ban-faction has hung all over the Swiss.
"Every Muslim is allowed to come together with other Muslims to have the religion together," he told the BBC.
"But a minaret is a political symbol. It is a symbol for introducing, step-by-step, Sharia rights also in Switzerland, parallel to the Swiss law which is a result of Swiss democracy. And this is the problem. It is nothing against Muslims."
But how do they know that minarets is a symbol for creeping Sharia law? Isn't the construction of mosques even more of a political symbol? There should be hundreds in Switzerland already.
"Every Muslim is allowed to come together with other Muslims to have the religion together," he told the BBC.
"But a minaret is a political symbol. It is a symbol for introducing, step-by-step, Sharia rights also in Switzerland, parallel to the Swiss law which is a result of Swiss democracy. And this is the problem. It is nothing against Muslims."
But how do they know that minarets is a symbol for creeping Sharia law? Isn't the construction of mosques even more of a political symbol? There should be hundreds in Switzerland already.
"Every Muslim is allowed to come together with other Muslims to have the religion together," he told the BBC.
"But a minaret is a political symbol. It is a symbol for introducing, step-by-step, Sharia rights also in Switzerland, parallel to the Swiss law which is a result of Swiss democracy. And this is the problem. It is nothing against Muslims."
Fucking seriously, Switzerland?
That scans pretty much exactly like Orson Scott Card's two-faced "tolerance" of homosexuality: it's okay as long as you NEVER tell other people about it. Because, you know, any public acknowledgement of your sexuality religion would be deeply offensive to all right-thinking Americans Swiss.
I've got little but contempt for Sharia law, but that's not what we're looking at here. 400,000 Muslims aren't going to be taking over their nation; it's a bare-faced anti-immigrant gesture with a rich side of racism from the opportunistic Conservative wing with a surge of scapegoat hungry morons behind them.
I'm for this as long as they also ban church steeples.
1980s Rock is to music what Giant Robot shows are to anime
Think about it.
Cruising low in my N-1 blasting phat beats,
showin' off my chrome on them Coruscant streets
Got my 'saber on my belt and my gat by side,
this here yellow plane makes for a sick ride
130 seems like a little bit of a tight fit for hundreds of thousands of Muslims.
Minarets aren't required in the religion, so no big loss if they are banned. But I just don't see the logic behind trying to ban it.
With respect to 130 mosques to hundreds of thousands of Muslims (many of them from the Balkans), you're making the assumption that a significant portion of them is religious and goes to a mosque regularily. Interestingly enough, some Alevis were for the ban because of what is going on in Turkey between them and the government.
I wonder what will happen to the four minarets that are already standing, in light of this ban.
[R_H] wrote:With respect to 130 mosques to hundreds of thousands of Muslims (many of them from the Balkans), you're making the assumption that a significant portion of them is religious and goes to a mosque regularily. Interestingly enough, some Alevis were for the ban because of what is going on in Turkey between them and the government.
I wonder what will happen to the four minarets that are already standing, in light of this ban.
“The Federal Council respects this decision,” the government said in a statement. “Consequently, the construction of new minarets in Switzerland is no longer permitted. The four existing minarets will remain. It will also be possible to continue to construct mosques. Muslims in Switzerland are able to practice their religion alone or in community with others, and live according to their beliefs just as before.”
“The Federal Council respects this decision,” the government said in a statement. “Consequently, the construction of new minarets in Switzerland is no longer permitted. The four existing minarets will remain. It will also be possible to continue to construct mosques. Muslims in Switzerland are able to practice their religion alone or in community with others, and live according to their beliefs just as before.”
To the great surprise of pollsters and the regret of the government, the Swiss on Sunday said yes to a ban on the construction of minarets.
According to final results, 57.5 per cent of voters and a majority of cantons backed the initiative.
Turnout was high, at around 55 per cent.
The result comes as a major surprise and a slap in the face of the government. Opinion polls ahead of the vote had predicted the ban would be rejected by 53 per cent of the electorate.
The proposal on banning minaret construction was championed by rightwing and ultra-conservative groups. The government and most political parties as well as churches and the business community came out strongly against it.
"A majority of the Swiss people and the cantons have adopted the popular initiative against the construction of minarets. The Federal Council respects this decision," a government statement said."Consequently the construction of new minarets in Switzerland is no longer permitted. The four existing minarets will remain. It will also be possible to continue to construct mosques."
The statement said freedom of belief would not be affected. "Muslims in Switzerland are able to practise their religion alone or in community with others, and live according to their beliefs just as before."
"Proxy war"
Swiss Justice Minister Eveline Widmer-Schlumpf had argued strongly against a ban on minaret construction.
"The initiative is a kind of 'proxy war'. Its supporters say they are against minarets. But they want to fight what they consider creeping Islamicisation and sharia law," she said ahead of the vote.
Opponents warned that approval of the proposal would fuel Islamic extremism and damage Switzerland's image abroad, particularly in the Muslim world.
Supporters of a ban argued minarets are a symbol of an Islamic claim to power.
"The Islamic religion is intolerant, but we do not want to limit freedom of religion, we want to outlaw the political symbol," said Ulrich Schlüer, a member of the rightwing Swiss People's party and one of the leading promoters of the anti-minaret initiative.
Supporters tapped into public concern about the growing Muslim community in Switzerland, radical imams, the role of women, as well as head scarves and other dress codes.Immigrants
The number of Muslim immigrants has increased to about 350,000 (up to 4.5 per cent of the Swiss population) since the 1990s. Most came from the former Yugoslavia and Turkey and are considered moderates.
There are an estimated 160 mosques and prayer rooms in Switzerland, mainly in disused factories and warehouses. Only four have a minaret, including the mosques in Geneva and Zurich.
In the wake of heated debates at a local level about requests to build more minarets, members of the People's Party and the Federal Democratic Union collected enough signatures to force a nationwide vote.
Their campaign made use of a provocative poster campaign, which was criticised as racist by non-governmental organisations and international bodies.
What I don't understand is why the poster campaign was criticised as being racist, the Muslims here in Switzerland and elsewhere aren't all of one specific ethnicity.
What I don't understand is why the poster campaign was criticised as being racist, the Muslims here in Switzerland and elsewhere aren't all of one specific ethnicity.
Yes they are- the ethnicity is "not Swiss". Do you honestly think racists care much beyond "not one of us"?
The number of Muslim immigrants has increased to about 350,000 (up to 4.5 per cent of the Swiss population) since the 1990s. Most came from the former Yugoslavia and Turkey and are considered moderates.
Grr, I saw some number very early this morning (and of course I can't find it now!) about the percentage of those 350,000 Muslims in Switzerland that actually practice Islam. Does anyone know that number?
While I don't have the numbers for Switzerland, the mix of nations for the muslim population is roughly the same as in Germany, so I guess it should be roughly the same. While muslims are still more religious than the rest of the population, the religiosity has lessened a lot. So as far as I know only roughly half of them in Germany actually do follow Islam actively, and that in various degrees, too (like the "I go once a wekk to church"-Christian).
It's obvious that prologed exposure to the surroundings had a rather negative effect on the religiosity.
Tribun wrote:While I don't have the numbers for Switzerland, the mix of nations for the muslim population is roughly the same as in Germany, so I guess it should be roughly the same. While muslims are still more religious than the rest of the population, the religiosity has lessened a lot. So as far as I know only roughly half of them in Germany actually do follow Islam actively, and that in various degrees, too (like the "I go once a wekk to church"-Christian).
It's obvious that prologed exposure to the surroundings had a rather negative effect on the religiosity.
But it's this kind of reactionary nonsense that will drive Swiss Muslims towards radicalism. I'm not justifying any future extremist activity, but really, what other effect could a law this petty and childish have? If the Swiss really want to ban the expression of Islam in public, they should cut to the chase instead of beating around the bush like this.
"If one needed proof that a guitar was more than wood and string, that a song was more than notes and words, and that a man could be more than a name and a few faded pictures, then Robert Johnson’s recordings were all one could ask for."
It isn't the surroundings as much as their cultural background - they're Bosniaks, Albanians and Turks mostly (the 4th most spoken mother language in Switzerland is Serbo-Croatian, having five times more speakers then the 4th official language, Romansh, and most of those are of Bosniak origin - just to give a feel for the importance of that community). Those are the Muslim equivalents of the "Christmas, Easter, weddings and funerals" Catholics in their own countries as well (with over 10% of Bosniaks declaring themselves as non-religious in an surrounding that considers religious affiliation equal to ethnic affiliation, skewing the numbers of religious adherents severely upwards - compare that with religious affiliation in any Arab country) - look at the practical nonpracticing of most Islamic rules like daily prayer, ban on alcohol, very loose adherence to halal food rules, headscarves being mostly limited to the "religious grandmother" types (which is actually common in Christian elder women in the region, as well), not to mention the complete absence of burqas (which, by the way, makes that agitprop poster even more heinous).
I for one am not surprised in the least. Switzerland didn't even start allowing women to vote federally until the 70s. Is it any surprise that most Swiss are still backwards xenophobic bigots?
Ohhhh, let's just see how this one flies in the EU Court of Human Rights.
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—Abraham Lincoln
People pray so that God won't crush them like bugs.
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Oil an emergency?! It's about time, Brigadier, that the leaders of this planet of yours realised that to remain dependent upon a mineral slime simply doesn't make sense.
—The Doctor "Terror Of The Zygons" (1975)
Ahh, so Swiss people are afraid of the bogeyman of Muslims who will be driven to feel angry and disenfranchised by a clash between their beliefs and Swiss culture. Their brilliant solution? Pass laws designed to make Muslims legitimately angry and disenfranchised. Genius!
"It's not evil for God to do it. Or for someone to do it at God's command."- Jonathan Boyd on baby-killing
"you guys are fascinated with the use of those "rules of logic" to the extent that you don't really want to discussus anything."- GC
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I'm confused here. How the hell is a minaret supposed to be any more of a symbol of "Sharia law" than the mosque itself, or the fucking Qu'ran for that matter? I'm not exactly a fan of Islam but the whole 'reasoning' behind this seems ridiculous.
Last edited by General Zod on 2009-11-29 10:23pm, edited 1 time in total.
"It's you Americans. There's something about nipples you hate. If this were Germany, we'd be romping around naked on the stage here."
Patrick Degan wrote:Ohhhh, let's just see how this one flies in the EU Court of Human Rights.
Slight problem of jurisdiction there, since Switzerland isn't in the EU. Switzerland has voluntarily adopted a fair number of EU regulations, primarily to facilitate commerce, but AFAIK they haven't signed on to the human rights program and they certainly don't recognise the authority of the ECoHR.
Last edited by Starglider on 2009-11-29 10:23pm, edited 1 time in total.
General Zod wrote:I'm confused here. How the hell is a minaret uspposed to be any more of a symbol of "Sharia law" than the mosque itself, or the fucking Qu'ran for that matter? I'm not exactly a fan of Islam but the whole 'reasoning' behind this seems ridiculous.
They're just trying to ban whatever they can successfully ban. Banning places of worship or pieces of literature would probably result in far more outrage among Muslims and self-doubt among Swiss voters. Since there are only 4 minarets in the entire country, they can ban this with little effect, which means it's easier to pass.
"It's not evil for God to do it. Or for someone to do it at God's command."- Jonathan Boyd on baby-killing
"you guys are fascinated with the use of those "rules of logic" to the extent that you don't really want to discussus anything."- GC
"I do not believe Russian Roulette is a stupid act" - Embracer of Darkness
"Viagra commercials appear to save lives" - tharkûn on US health care.
General Zod wrote:I'm confused here. How the hell is a minaret uspposed to be any more of a symbol of "Sharia law" than the mosque itself, or the fucking Qu'ran for that matter? I'm not exactly a fan of Islam but the whole 'reasoning' behind this seems ridiculous.
They're just trying to ban whatever they can successfully ban. Banning places of worship or pieces of literature would probably result in far more outrage among Muslims and self-doubt among Swiss voters. Since there are only 4 minarets in the entire country, they can ban this with little effect, which means it's easier to pass.
I figured that was the case, but I'd be interested in seeing their justification behind this (not that I really expect to see one). As far as I can tell there doesn't seem to be one in the OP's article other than their say-so.
"It's you Americans. There's something about nipples you hate. If this were Germany, we'd be romping around naked on the stage here."
Patrick Degan wrote:Ohhhh, let's just see how this one flies in the EU Court of Human Rights.
Slight problem of jurisdiction there, since Switzerland isn't in the EU. Switzerland has voluntarily adopted a fair number of EU regulations, primarily to facilitate commerce, but AFAIK they haven't signed on to the human rights program and they certainly don't recognise the authority of the ECoHR.
Yeah, they did and do and have since the 1970s. Cases have been decided against the Swiss government in that court before. But with the backlog that court operates under a new case could also take ten years to get a hearing.
"This cult of special forces is as sensible as to form a Royal Corps of Tree Climbers and say that no soldier who does not wear its green hat with a bunch of oak leaves stuck in it should be expected to climb a tree"
— Field Marshal William Slim 1956
Sea Skimmer wrote:Yeah, they did and do and have since the 1970s. Cases have been decided against the Swiss government in that court before. But with the backlog that court operates under a new case could also take ten years to get a hearing.
Apologies, I really should look these things up, if a few seconds of reflection reveals that my knowledge comes from half-remembered news stories.
