Swiss vote bans minarets

[weemadando]

The Swiss have a really fucked up system for citizenship (which I'm guessing his has become a natural extension of). I'm not surprised that a country where citizenship requires a majority vote in favour from your neighbours is afraid of the brown people.

[[R_H]]

The Swiss have a really fucked up system for citizenship (which I'm guessing his has become a natural extension of). I'm not surprised that a country where citizenship requires a majority vote in favour from your neighbours is afraid of the brown people.

It's not just brown people, it's foreigners period. What the Turkish and Yugoslav immigrants are going through now (and in the past, especially during the late 80s, early 90s) the Italians went through after the Second World War. People here, especially those not living in the large cities (Zuerich, Geneva, Lausanne, Basel, Bern) are pretty distrustful of outsiders (somewhat like how Broomstick and Frank Hipper describe rural Virgina/Kentucky.)

The voting on citizenship isn't done in larger communities anymore, but people still have to show that they've integrated into the community.

[Norseman]

I for one am not surprised in the least. Switzerland didn't even start allowing women to vote federally until the 70s. Is it any surprise that most Swiss are still backwards xenophobic bigots?

Well Women lead Swiss in vote to ban minarets apparently Swiss feminists are big on supporting this ban, indeed the polls showed women being more in favour of the ban than men. That's a bit surprising to me since it's usually the women who are in favour of immigration / tolerance and the men who want to keep immigrants out.

[CJvR]

Architecture is generally the least offensive part of a religion.

[KrauserKrauser]

Well Women lead Swiss in vote to ban minarets apparently Swiss feminists are big on supporting this ban, indeed the polls showed women being more in favour of the ban than men. That's a bit surprising to me since it's usually the women who are in favour of immigration / tolerance and the men who want to keep immigrants out.

It makes a bit more sense when you factor in the gross inequality in the sexes in the stereotypical Muslim household. Not eating with the men, wearing burka's, etc. I can see the vast majority of women being opposed to the spread of Islam in general and this is a rather petty way of going about it, but women being generically against Islam I fully understand.

[ray245]

Instead of tackling the problem head on, they want to do something that will radicialize the muslim population in Switzerland?

[Netko]

Not eating with the men, wearing burka's, etc. I can see the vast majority of women being opposed to the spread of Islam in general and this is a rather petty way of going about it, but women being generically against Islam I fully understand.

Is it that much to ask that you read the previous page where it is clearly established that the Muslims in question don't fucking impose the mentioned things. Here, I'll give you a quote from Fox News on the subject:

Muslims comprise about 6 percent of Switzerland's 7.5 million people. Many are refugees from the Yugoslav wars of the 1990s and about one in 10 actively practices their religion, the government says.

Seriously, the Swiss just essentially told the Islamic version of Western European Catholics that they are not wanted there. Its pure Xenophobia with no basis in fact.

I'll throw in another anecdote just to illustrate the point yet again. A friend of mine who is into the CouchSurfing scene had an American vegetarian over (cool guy, from Utah or Idaho I think and nothing like the stereotype one would associate with those places). So this guy wants to taste the local foods, as most tourists do. Trouble is, the Balkans aren't really all that welcoming to vegetarianism as a culinary choice (outside, of course, of various desserts and sweets) when it comes to traditional foods. But, after a bit of thinking about it, we decided to take the guy out for burek with cheese. Naturally, since this is originally a Bosnian food, we went to a family-operated Bosnian joint near the Zageb mosque. So you can imagine the profile of the patrons. Anyway, the American loved the burek so much that he asked the chef for the recipe. The chef goes on and on about the type of cheese and how to make the dough and he finally arrives at the baking. This is the exchange:
"The most important thing to make sure you do right is to use pig fat."
"Pig fat?"
"Yes, pig fat! Oh, sure, there are some that use vegetable oils, but that screws up the taste. As you can taste for yourself, our bureks are better!"
"But aren't you a Muslim? I mean, we're next to the mosque and all?"
"Yeah, I go to the mosque. What has that got to do with anything?"

These Muslims are not the same as Arab extremists.

[Grif]

I find it odd no Muslim majority countries are screaming Discrimnation! or Jihad! against the Swiss government yet. This makes great fodder for anyone wanting to radicalise the Swiss Muslims.

I'm curious as to how the average Swiss Muslims are reacting to this.

[Sarevok]

If they ban minarats they should ban cathedrals as well.

[Thanas]

If they ban minarats they should ban cathedrals as well.

That won't really promote equality as nobody except the poles built cathedrals anymore in Europe. Or did you miss the part where it said existing structures would not be torn down?

[Sarevok]

Well I am not familiar with christian structures much. But is not there a common pattern in traditional church construction ? My point is if a certain architecture style identifiable as being islamic is banned architecture that looks christian should also be banned. Otherwise it's hypocracy. I am not saying tear down existing structures. But if no more new minarats are allowed on grounds of religon the arguement should cover all religons. Basically I think targeting personal expression that don't bother others by specific religious groups whether christian, muslim or jewish is dumb and hypocritic.

[Thanas]

You're missing the point.

A ban on cathedrals would not do anything as nobody builds new cathedrals. OTOH, muslims want to ban minarets. So who do you think a ban on cathedrals and minarets would hurt more?

[Sarevok]

Ah ok. I thought they still build those old style churches you see in tv and movies. My mistake.

Still the fact remains that banning minarats is bad thing. A minarat is just part of a building. It does not hurt anyone anymore than a basement or attic does.

[wolveraptor]

Is it that much to ask that you read the previous page where it is clearly established that the Muslims in question don't fucking impose the mentioned things. Here, I'll give you a quote from Fox News on the subject:

I submit that the impression Swiss women have of Islam is far more relevant than the actual facts here.
Also:

OTOH, muslims want to ban minarets.

Wha?

[Duckie]

Nate Silver has noted that there is a strong correlation of religiousness and wanting to ban Minarets, as if we need any more evidence of right-wing christian intolerance. There also was a large degree of correlation found by Renard Sexton, same website, between ethnic homogenity of the canton and wanting to ban it, with the exception of two cantons (one with a lot of 'foreigners' actually just being Italian Auslanders, so hardly an exception but rather that 'foreigner' isn't accurate enough to correlate exactly with 'level of muslims').

In other words, rural right wing christians who have never met a muslim hate muslims. News?


Source: Nate Silver, 538

Source: Renard Sexton, 538

[Liberty]

This whole thing with muslims is a problem going on all over Europe. Sure, in this case, the muslims are fairly moderate, but not all are. See the issue over the Mohammed cartoons for example.

So I'm curious. Some of you are from various European countries. What's your take? What solution do you advocate?

[Stark]

The solution to what? Muslim immigration or minarets? I didn't see any explanation for the idea that minarets are Mohammad Pylons shooting Allahrays into people's heads. Hell, the only thing I've seen a minaret used for is to call the faithful to prayer, which is about as annoying as church bells (although not at 2am).

[Samuel]

This whole thing with muslims is a problem going on all over Europe. Sure, in this case, the muslims are fairly moderate, but not all are. See the issue over the Mohammed cartoons for example.

So I'm curious. Some of you are from various European countries. What's your take? What solution do you advocate?

If I remember correctly most of the protests occured outside Europe. Sure you have nut job Muslims, but you can always attempt to assimilate them. Really, there is no reason to believe that the US, Argentina and others are unique in the ability to take foreigners and make them part of the mainstream.

I didn't see any explanation for the idea that minarets are Mohammad Pylons shooting Allahrays into people's heads.

Next you will be saying that floride isn't a communist plot to control our minds.

[wolveraptor]

This whole thing with muslims is a problem going on all over Europe. Sure, in this case, the muslims are fairly moderate, but not all are. See the issue over the Mohammed cartoons for example.

So I'm curious. Some of you are from various European countries. What's your take? What solution do you advocate?

I think a better example of what you are talking about would be those French riots that happened around 2005. I remember the BBC contextualizing it as unrest among low/no-income populations due to percieved discrimination against Islam and (IMO more importantly) a high-unemployment rate.

[hongi]

I didn't see any explanation for the idea that minarets are Mohammad Pylons shooting Allahrays into people's heads.

Damn. I got milk up my nose now.

[Thanas]

Also:

OTOH, muslims want to ban minarets.

Wha?

Yeah, mixed up "built" and "ban". Happens sometimes in a third language.

[hongi]

Swiss minaret ban condemned by Vatican

The Vatican has condemned the Swiss ban on the construction of Islamic minarets as a 'blow to freedom of religion'.

It's worth knowing that Christian, Jewish and human rights groups were opposed to the ban from the start.

[Siege]

Of course they do. The vatican is usually all over this sort of thing, they can look tolerant denouncing something that's obviously disliked by the better part of the world already.

What solution do you advocate?

A good place to start would be for moderate muslims to acknowledge they have a massive PR problem. If they did something about their press - preferably making sure they don't only make the news when one of their wayward fundamentalist cousins has done something terrible - that would go a good long way toward relieving the paranoia and xenophobia of the more reactionary part of the European populace.

Moderate islam in Europe is stuck fire-fighting and reacting to fundamentalist nonsense, which makes it entirely too easy for hysterical right-wingers to paint all muslims as Sharia-endorsing, women-beating, sneaky insurrectionist up-to-no-goods every time a lunatic fundamentalist mucks something up. If they want to change public perception they have to be more proactive in spreading word about what they are and what they are not.

And it's not just the timing of their message, it's the tone of that message that needs to change as well. It's unfortunate for the moderates, but if the only time you ever appear on television is when either something got blown up or there's people rioting in the streets over something particularly silly, you can't seriously expect to get away with an old saw like "but Islam is the religion of peace!" and not be perceived as disingenuous. Acknowledge that there's lunatics out there and move on.

If those two problems were to be adressed I don't think it would solve every integration-related issue in Europe, but it would go a long way toward reducing muslim vulnerability to being painted in corners. Right now they're the right's favorite punching bag, and whilst the right may very well have a point with some of their criticism right now moderate Islam in Europe is making it entirely too easy on the populists.

[Hillary]

I think a better example of what you are talking about would be those French riots that happened around 2005. I remember the BBC contextualizing it as unrest among low/no-income populations due to percieved discrimination against Islam and (IMO more importantly) a high-unemployment rate.

As I recall, these were nothing to do with Islam - it was all about racism.

[wolveraptor]

I think a better example of what you are talking about would be those French riots that happened around 2005. I remember the BBC contextualizing it as unrest among low/no-income populations due to percieved discrimination against Islam and (IMO more importantly) a high-unemployment rate.

As I recall, these were nothing to do with Islam - it was all about racism.

On further investigation, I'm finding that even non-Muslims and whites were involved. While there were definite religious and racial overtones, I'm thinking this was largely a class issue. This was around the time Sarkozy made that jackassed comment about poor people, remember?
So perhaps it isn't a good analogy to the Swiss situation at all.