New Avatar trailer is out

[Lord Relvenous]

I think the humans are for the most part live-action. The CGI is the Na'vi, Pandora, the animals on Pandora, and the humans' ships, AFAIK.

Why CGI real actors when you can just take a live-action shot and blend it into the CGI? (Serious question)

[Terralthra]

I think the expressions on their humans are a whole order of magnitude above the Uncanny Valley shit seen in Christmas Carol and Christmas Train or whatever it was. I mean, when you see Michelle Rodriguez in the dropship she looks like she's about to say shit like "in the pipe, five by five" or tell them that they're in for some chop. It's almost photorealistic, and is damn good CGI.

heh, you do know that Ferro from Aliens was totally not played by Michelle Rodriguez, right?

[Sarevok]

I think the humans are for the most part live-action. The CGI is the Na'vi, Pandora, the animals on Pandora, and the humans' ships, AFAIK.

Why CGI real actors when you can just take a live-action shot and blend it into the CGI? (Serious question)

One day it might be cheaper than paying millions of dollar to someone to stand infront of a camera for few minutes.

But clearly that day is not today. Avatar is going to be one of the most expensive films ever.

[Zor]

Just a thought of mine and this may sound really petty, but on the matter of the Na'vi, they seem a bit out of place as four limbed creatures on a world where the vertibrate annolouges all seem to have six limbs (and yes, i do understand the motion capture factors). I can't even say that giving her four arms would detract that much from the hotness that the Na'vi female has.

Zor

[Companion Cube]

Damn That bucket wheel excavator is fucking huge.

In General it looks like we have some cool hardware. Although i say that the Machine Gun Nest with sandbags on the back of that Dragon thing is pretty silly idea.

Zor

Having poked around one of the film's fansites, I found a screenshot from the second trailer which seems to show the same arrangement. Whatever they've set up on top of, it doesn't look like the Dragon, which we see doing some fairly violent maneuvers in the trailers. I think it might be one of their space shuttles, which is hilarious. I can't blame them for not putting WW2-style ball turrets all over the thing.

Just a thought of mine and this may sound really petty, but on the matter of the Na'vi, they seem a bit out of place as four limbed creatures on a world where the vertibrate annolouges all seem to have six limbs (and yes, i do understand the motion capture factors). I can't even say that giving her four arms would detract that much from the hotness that the Na'vi female has.

Obviously their breasts are vestigial limbs! Two birds, one stone.

[Covenant]

What exactly IS their method of CGI-ing? A lot of those CGI-faces, even from that rough weatherbeaten-looking officer, look way better than that Christmas Carol Express shit.

They aren't CGing them at all, they're just recording them in front of a greenscreen and layering them into the scene, the scenes that aren't actually CG. And then you can CG objects into the scenes, like the dudes in tubes, the same way they did it back in Star Wars. For example, here's one of the actors receiving direction from the director:


And here's a shot of Cameron in a green set, with the scanny tube in the foreground and the spaceship's front a big greenscreen so you can fake the illusion of depth:


For scenes where they simply cannot layer the real people into the scene, like the infantry, they seem to be blurring and obscuring faces, putting a lot of them behind glass and stuff so they can have some 'real' parts and some 'fake' parts (robots, bodies, etc) without actually having to do a lot of facial animation. Absolute worst case, you can scan in a face using a laser and take a digital picture of it and use that as a texture, which would make applying it to a model very easy, and such a procedure might be used for a few of the shots. All in all, it's the MONEY that is impressive. The CG is meh, but Toy Story's is better. Given that none of their full CG characters are as exciting as the Pixar ones, this move is going to need to be a rousing action story, which is where I'm considering it bland with a touch of insulting.

But I'm sure it'll be gorgeous. That giant monster aircraft carrier is awesome, but I just hate it when they put awesome stuff in a movie where the plot is right out of a 10 cent comic book.

[Wing Commander MAD]

How the hell is this avatar premise even supposed to work. Big deal they put a human mind into an alien body, what's to stop the other aliens from seeing that this one doesn't act right? Most people are going completely stick out like a sore thumb in most foreign places simply by thier mannerisms and such (even if they physically pass for a local), and thats without having a completely alien culture and language to deal with. If they are taking the time to actually learn and thus teach their infiltrating avatars how to be and act alien, why are they strip mining to begin with? Strip mining is done because its damn cheap and pretty quick, learning and teaching language and culture are not. Normally I'm not really great at finding plot holes, but this one is so absolutely large that it becomes apparent with even the tinyest bit of thought. Did I miss something that was covered in the latest teasers or something, that makes the basic premise any less stupid and implausible?

[Ghost Rider]

How the hell is this avatar premise even supposed to work. Big deal they put a human mind into an alien body, what's to stop the other aliens from seeing that this one doesn't act right?

Hell, in the latest preview he lands with clothes and a gun and apparently encounters them this way.

Most people are going completely stick out like a sore thumb in most foreign places simply by thier mannerisms and such (even if they physically pass for a local), and thats without having a completely alien culture and language to deal with. If they are taking the time to actually learn and thus teach their infiltrating avatars how to be and act alien, why are they strip mining to begin with? Strip mining is done because its damn cheap and pretty quick, learning and teaching language and culture are not. Normally I'm not really great at finding plot holes, but this one is so absolutely large that it becomes apparent with even the tinyest bit of thought. Did I miss something that was covered in the latest teasers or something, that makes the basic premise any less stupid and implausible?

As for making it less stupid? I doubt it.

So far the movie has these characters. Disabled main, kindly scientist looking for the nonviolent solution, asshole corporate, hard ass Marine, side chick/failed love interest, love interest, faceless troops, warrior to the end natives. And of course add in stupid mecha(agains...legs are not a good platform) as well as natives who appear to give the evil human a run for their money with giant birds and arrows.

The previews have really failed to make me interested beyond the pretty shiny CGI.

[mr friendly guy]

If they are taking the time to actually learn and thus teach their infiltrating avatars how to be and act alien, why are they strip mining to begin with? Strip mining is done because its damn cheap and pretty quick, learning and teaching language and culture are not. Normally I'm not really great at finding plot holes, but this one is so absolutely large that it becomes apparent with even the tinyest bit of thought. Did I miss something that was covered in the latest teasers or something, that makes the basic premise any less stupid and implausible?

The preview has one character saying that the Navi have to be relocated as their village lies right at the site they want to mine. I am going to hazard a guess that not all humans have a might makes right mentality, and some are advocating settling the issue more peacefully, hence the use of the avatars. Since a lot of our policy is made through compromises between people with different agendas, I guess this is the compromise.

This is just a guess though, but this plot hole isn't too hard to explain away if a writer could be bothered to. I would be more worried about explaining how guys with bows and arrows (even ones who can breath the toxic atmosphere and are much stronger than humans) would win against guns and mecha (even though mecha are worse than tanks from a design perspective). Although if there was a plan to make the Navi win, which makes sense, they are not going to show it in the preview.

[Bounty]

I would be more worried about explaining how guys with bows and arrows would win against guns and mecha

Bows, arrows, intimate knowledge of human technology and tactics, and agents within the human camp. That's quite the equalizer right there.

[Bob the Gunslinger]

I'm not sure how much of an equalizer that would be. The humans still have guns, after all.

I still find it hard to believe that this movie either has the inane plot it seems to have or, if it actually is well written, is marketed to look as if it has the inane plot it seems to have. Either way, I'm still waiting for someone to explain how a studio thought it was a good idea to make this turd.

[Shroom Man 777]

The fact that they've got giant monster animals might be an equalizer, seeing as how a stray bird can ruin even modern day supersonic technological badass bomber aircraft.

[Bounty]

I'm not sure how much of an equalizer that would be. The humans still have guns, after all.

The key for the locals then is to put the humans into situations where they can't use those weapons. Use the terrain, use false planted intel, use sabotage, use the human tech's weaknesses and blind spots which they'd know about if they have one or more sympathisers on the inside. That would not make the two groups equal in a stand-up fight by a longshot, but in a guerilla campaign - or one that focuses on a few key targets - they might have a fighting chance.

[Shroom Man 777]

The fact that jungle environments has always been a bitch for counter-insurgency operations, and this movie seems to be set in a very whacky jungle, would make COIN operations even more difficult.

Yes, you could just burn everything and chuck crap from orbit. But imagine the backlash on Earth when people find out that, upon discovering a strange and alien world with life on it, humanity's first action was to burn everything with space-napalm in order to mine some xyz resource... man, that would suck. The space hippies would have space rallies and space protests, in space!

[Sarevok]

I'm not sure how much of an equalizer that would be. The humans still have guns, after all.

The key for the locals then is to put the humans into situations where they can't use those weapons. Use the terrain, use false planted intel, use sabotage, use the human tech's weaknesses and blind spots which they'd know about if they have one or more sympathisers on the inside. That would not make the two groups equal in a stand-up fight by a longshot, but in a guerilla campaign - or one that focuses on a few key targets - they might have a fighting chance.

Pandora itself seems to be a Gaia like organism actively working against foreign incursion. A planetmind could pull off a successful defense against unprepared landing teams who were initially only expecting some hostile native peoples.

[Zac Naloen]

I'm not sure how much of an equalizer that would be. The humans still have guns, after all.

The key for the locals then is to put the humans into situations where they can't use those weapons. Use the terrain, use false planted intel, use sabotage, use the human tech's weaknesses and blind spots which they'd know about if they have one or more sympathisers on the inside. That would not make the two groups equal in a stand-up fight by a longshot, but in a guerilla campaign - or one that focuses on a few key targets - they might have a fighting chance.

Pandora itself seems to be a Gaia like organism actively working against foreign incursion. A planetmind could pull off a successful defense against unprepared landing teams who were initially only expecting some hostile native peoples.

By that do you mean that all that plant life is actually a giant organism capable of basic thought "Hey, that hurts! Stop that!"

[Sarevok]

Its not my theory mind you.

The gaia/planetmind aspect was in an early draft according to what I read on the avatar thread in SB. Whether it remains is unknown but I am leaning towards an yes since Avatar would be a terrific way to introduce the concept to the general audience.

[mr friendly guy]

Pandora itself seems to be a Gaia like organism actively working against foreign incursion. A planetmind could pull off a successful defense against unprepared landing teams who were initially only expecting some hostile native peoples.

How do you figure that? All I can get was the Navi had domesticated some of the fauna to use against the humans. Although if that was true it might help explain how the primitive culture wins, assuming they do.

[PeZook]

Even if they can kill the fuck out of human soldiers, they can't win. American indians also won some spectacular victories, and it didn't help them accomplish squat.

Think about it: if the natives killfuck the humans, slaughter them and drink their blood, what will happen? The humans will either leave (which is a tactical victory) or kill the natives from orbit if they want the mineral badly enough.

Personally, I think the only way for the plot to be intelligent is to avoid the Spectacular Final Battle cliche at all costs, but the damn trailer has a scene which smells suspiciously like the SFB. Unless the movie wins on sheer thrilling suspense and excellent characterization.

[McC]

Overthinking It has a great post titled 5 Reasons Avatar Will Suck, which I pretty much agree with across the board.

The highlight (to me) is this:

Avatar better have a really sad ending, because if these cat people are actually saved because Sam Worthington gets a fur-on for one of them, that’s just nonsense.

[Shroom Man 777]

If the humans think the planet is too much trouble and just leave the fuck outta there, that means the aliens do win the war.

I guess the Vietnam War also sucked because it had the happy ending of Murricans leaving en masse after deciding the whole thing wasn't worth it. Or does that count as a sad ending?

EDIT:

Also, as for that list...

#5 - What? lol avatars suck rite guise? Jesus Christ, guy sounds like an internet fatty. Am i rite?

#4 - Jesus Christ. He's bitching about the appearance of power armor? I guess he didn't like District 9 either.

#3 - Nerdrage over superficial anthropomorphic detail on female alien space cat? Lol.

#2 - Who's that shitpiece from Star Battles Galaxies anyway? Who cares?

#1 - Ferngully wasn't bad.

[Crazedwraith]

Overthinking It has a great post titled 5 Reasons Avatar Will Suck, which I pretty much agree with across the board.

The highlight (to me) is this:

Avatar better have a really sad ending, because if these cat people are actually saved because Sam Worthington gets a fur-on for one of them, that’s just nonsense.

Oh noes! A Happy ending! That means it will suck because it is unrealistic! Except you know all happy endings are pretty unrealistic. Realistic for Star Wars would be Luke missing the one in a million shot and the outgunned, outmanned, rebellion being squashed and the Empire ruling over everyone, forever. Man; you're right that ending's so much better!

[McC]

Shroomy, did you completely miss the point? A lot of that article is tongue-in-cheek, and the name of the site is Overthinking It.

#5 - What? lol avatars suck rite guise? Jesus Christ, guy sounds like an internet fatty. Am i rite?

See above.

#4 - Jesus Christ. He's bitching about the appearance of power armor? I guess he didn't like District 9 either.

The only time giant hi-tech bipedal power armor works in stories is when it is there by accident, abandoned by somebody and found by an unlikely hero who has to figure out how to get it to work.

He implicitly mentions District 9 as being a good exception.

#3 - Nerdrage over superficial anthropomorphic detail on female alien space cat? Lol.

Yes, because "cat boobs!" is clearly a serious objection rather than a nitpick. He's also correct; the Na'vi chick is clearly anthrosexualized. But, so are twi'lek. Personally, I don't really have a problem with either, but I found this section entertaining to read anyway.

#2 - Who's that shitpiece from Star Battles Galaxies anyway? Who cares?

His point is that Sam Worthington has not exemplified himself as the sort of leading man who can carry a movie like this. I don't really think that Tahmoh is either, but the point about Worthington is valid, I think.

#1 - Ferngully wasn't bad.

FernGully was a flat-out fantasy. The villain was an evil spirit that fed on pollution. If Avatar starts throwing evil spirits around, then you can use that as a dodge. So long as its the technological vs. primitive/natural, you don't get to make that comparison and expect it to be valid.

Oh noes! A Happy ending! That means it will suck because it is unrealistic! Except you know all happy endings are pretty unrealistic. Realistic for Star Wars would be Luke missing the one in a million shot and the outgunned, outmanned, rebellion being squashed and the Empire ruling over everyone, forever. Man; you're right that ending's so much better!

"Happy ending" in this case meaning that the primitive natives triumph over the technologically superior human force in a direct, epic final battle. Your Star Wars example is horseshit because the two sides had technological parity, even if one possessed numerical superiority. If the Na'vi are fighting technology with technology, that's an entirely different matter. But if the power of the noble savage defending his home trumps basic technological dominance? Yeah, that will suck.

"Happy ending" doesn't have to mean that--this movie could certainly have a happy ending that doesn't involve the above bullshit contrivance. The trailers strongly imply otherwise. Maybe it's a massive failure (or success) of marketing. The movie is being pitched as one thing, but it'll pull a fast one and turn out to be something completely different on actual viewing. I'm going to wait and see and I'll probably go see it if reviews aren't abysmal.

But if the movie ends up presenting "noble savage overcomes technological conqueror," then it's a pile of shit, no matter its other accolades.

[Shroom Man 777]

Shroomy, did you completely miss the point? A lot of that article is tongue-in-cheek, and the name of the site is Overthinking It.

Okay, yeah, I was being a humorless ass.

He implicitly mentions District 9 as being a good exception.

Errr... ahh... yeah. Still, not fair to say that xyz-type of power armor invariably suck in ALL circumstances.

His point is that Sam Worthington has not exemplified himself as the sort of leading man who can carry a movie like this. I don't really think that Tahmoh is either, but the point about Worthington is valid, I think.

Meh. Sam Worthington wasn't bad in T4, and he was pretty much one of the more compelling characters there, along with Kyle Reese, since Christian Bale was pretty meh there.

FernGully was a flat-out fantasy. The villain was an evil spirit that fed on pollution. If Avatar starts throwing evil spirits around, then you can use that as a dodge. So long as its the technological vs. primitive/natural, you don't get to make that comparison and expect it to be valid.

This has blue people riding dragon-things in a planet with floating islands!

You know what, yeah, you are correct. But geeze, who says that this movie is resolved because a bunch of loinclothed space-injuns took on a heavily-armed military force in a conventional face-to-face battle and won?

Geeze mangs, hasn't it been conclusively proven that trailers anyway prove jack and shit when it comes to the actual-factual movie and that lots of times trailers end up being totally misleading amyway?

But if the movie ends up presenting "noble savage overcomes technological conqueror," then it's a pile of shit, no matter its other accolades.

There are a binillion ways for noble savages to overcome technological conquerors, mang.

[McC]

Okay, yeah, I was being a humorless ass.

Just checking.

Errr... ahh... yeah. Still, not fair to say that xyz-type of power armor invariably suck in ALL circumstances.

No, you're right. But I don't think he's saying that, either. He's making a generalization that power armor is often used in stories in such a way that they end up being dragged down for it. Starship Troopers (the book), for example, used it very well. District 9 used it very well. But does anyone take Voltron (their cited example) seriously? Fun? Maybe so. But more in spite of the ridiculousness of its mecha than because of it (or enjoyed because it's ridiculous; that's valid too).

Meh. Sam Worthington wasn't bad in T4, and he was pretty much one of the more compelling characters there, along with Kyle Reese, since Christian Bale was pretty meh there.

I didn't see T4. I was interested in seeing T4 until it came out and pretty much everyone said it was terrible. In the case of T4, though, I would actually argue (bearing in mind that I haven't seen it) that it was Christian Bale who had the "leading man" spot; not Sam Worthington.

This has blue people riding dragon-things in a planet with floating islands!

I'm hoping there's a good explanation for the floating islands. Blue people riding dragon-things doesn't itself stray beyond the realm of science fiction, though.

But geeze, who says that this movie is resolved because a bunch of loinclothed space-injuns took on a heavily-armed military force in a conventional face-to-face battle and won?

No one; that's the point I made toward the end of my last post. The trailers heavily imply that this happens, but we just don't know.

Geeze mangs, hasn't it been conclusively proven that trailers anyway prove jack and shit when it comes to the actual-factual movie and that lots of times trailers end up being totally misleading amyway?

Absolutely. That's why I'm still holding out hope that this movie will end up being good after all.

There are a binillion ways for noble savages to overcome technological conquerors, mang.

In a direct stand-up final epic showdown fight? Name one.