Dresden Files vs X-Files.

[Atavarius]

You really have no basis to assume that the Laws of Magic would be suspended under any circumstance. The dogma of the White Council is that the use of black magic drives you insane and makes you evil. Now, there is some room for debate about this, both in and out of universe, but it's worth noting that the best sentence you can get for killing someone in self-defense via magic is still a one-strike-you're out policy, and McCoy had to

If their existence is threatened they would not have a choice.

The Merlin had Morgan try to provoke Harry into killing him, and they were willing to remove Harry's status in order to prevent their own destruction. Maybe black magic might drive them insane, but they are obviously not possessing moral qualms with killing their own, let alone those wanting to kill them.

Good point. Not only that, but they can still use white magic to kill and keep the whole use black magic and your dead. In fact the Council already permits this by having a Blackstaff. I am pretty sure if the existence of wizards was threatened to the extent suggested, they wouldn't really have a problem suspending the Laws (at least for white magic).

[Bakustra]

You really have no basis to assume that the Laws of Magic would be suspended under any circumstance. The dogma of the White Council is that the use of black magic drives you insane and makes you evil. Now, there is some room for debate about this, both in and out of universe, but it's worth noting that the best sentence you can get for killing someone in self-defense via magic is still a one-strike-you're out policy, and McCoy had to

If their existence is threatened they would not have a choice.

The Merlin had Morgan try to provoke Harry into killing him, and they were willing to remove Harry's status in order to prevent their own destruction. Maybe black magic might drive them insane, but they are obviously not possessing moral qualms with killing their own, let alone those wanting to kill them.

He still didn't authorize Morgan to use magic to kill him. The point is not that they would kill if threatened, but that they wouldn't Spoiler

excepting the Blackstaff

use magic to do so. They still have access to modern weapons, and younger Wardens use them fairly extensively (Ramirez). Granted, their definition of human is fairly narrow, since it incorporates changelings but not the White Court.

You really have no basis to assume that the Laws of Magic would be suspended under any circumstance. The dogma of the White Council is that the use of black magic drives you insane and makes you evil. Now, there is some room for debate about this, both in and out of universe, but it's worth noting that the best sentence you can get for killing someone in self-defense via magic is still a one-strike-you're out policy, and McCoy had to

If their existence is threatened they would not have a choice.

The Merlin had Morgan try to provoke Harry into killing him, and they were willing to remove Harry's status in order to prevent their own destruction. Maybe black magic might drive them insane, but they are obviously not possessing moral qualms with killing their own, let alone those wanting to kill them.

Good point. Not only that, but they can still use white magic to kill and keep the whole use black magic and your dead. In fact the Council already permits this by having a Blackstaff. I am pretty sure if the existence of wizards was threatened to the extent suggested, they wouldn't really have a problem suspending the Laws (at least for white magic).

Black magic, in the Dresdenverse, is not a variety of magic per se. Any magic used to break the Laws is considered black magic. Some varieties, such as telepathy and necromancy, are considered more inherently corruptive than homicide or precognition, both of which are permitted to limited extents. Note that this is the ideology of the White Council, which has been challenged by at least one "black mage" indirectly. It is impossible to use white magic to kill someone, as all magic that violates the Laws is black magic. Given a mortal world sufficiently devoted to wiping them out, some wizards may use black magic, but bear in mind that the ideology of the White Council is ingrained in Harry Dresden, (who was only definitely taught in its ways for several years as a young man), to such an extent that in Storm Front he is unable to initially conceive of someone using magic to kill in cold blood.

They're pretty damn forgiving for killings that can be construed as defensive though.

They would still have likely killed Dresden had Spoiler

McCoy not intervened

and they still placed him under the Doom of Damocles. Furthermore, it seems the very act of reading another's thoughts mandates the death penalty from the wording of the Third Law. Of course, the White Council are still free to kill any aliens or other freaks the U.S. Government can call upon in this scenario, as they do not count as human.

[Atavarius]

Black magic, in the Dresdenverse, is not a variety of magic per se. Any magic used to break the Laws is considered black magic. Some varieties, such as telepathy and necromancy, are considered more inherently corruptive than homicide or precognition, both of which are permitted to limited extents. Note that this is the ideology of the White Council, which has been challenged by at least one "black mage" indirectly. It is impossible to use white magic to kill someone, as all magic that violates the Laws is black magic. Given a mortal world sufficiently devoted to wiping them out, some wizards may use black magic, but bear in mind that the ideology of the White Council is ingrained in Harry Dresden, (who was only definitely taught in its ways for several years as a young man), to such an extent that in Storm Front he is unable to initially conceive of someone using magic to kill in cold blood.

I've just power read through all the Dresden novels twice in the past month and Harry definitely seems to speak of white and dark magic a 2 separate sides. If using magic to kill was always considered black, I highly doubt that they would let 1 wizard, Spoiler

especially one of the high council

, use it freely. If the Blackstaff position was using black magic as you say, I think Harry would be much, much more concerned with Spoiler

McCoy's

usage of it don't you think? Harry describes using black magic as addictive and even the smallest usage can corrupt you. Spoiler

McCoy used magic to pull a communication satellite from orbit and killed quite a few people. Don't you think they'd be at least the smallest bit worried of corruption, not just the Council, but Harry as well?

Spoiler

In fact it seems to me that the Blackstaff position, at least as it is currently being used by McCoy, is probably still avoiding using black magic and is instead basically just being used to ignore the first law in relation to using white magic to kill.

[Gaidin]

They're pretty damn forgiving for killings that can be construed as defensive though.

They would still have likely killed Dresden had Spoiler

McCoy not intervened

and they still placed him under the Doom of Damocles. Furthermore, it seems the very act of reading another's thoughts mandates the death penalty from the wording of the Third Law. Of course, the White Council are still free to kill any aliens or other freaks the U.S. Government can call upon in this scenario, as they do not count as human.

Yea they have something of a no exceptions rule, but Dresden probably wouldn't have even needed McCoy because they couldn't prove it was non-defensive as Dresden's was the only testimony. That shows they're pretty damn forgiving(relatively speaking regarding how they handle the Laws) regarding killing and magic and defense. They did kind of hope McCoy would just kill him but that wasn't to be. You can also toy with the wording of a few of the laws, especially the third. Invading someone's mind implies a lack of permission. Depending on who you are the council might ignore the circumstance and not kill you if you had permission, but then again if they don't like you they might kill you anyway. Could depend on something as little as which mage of the high council got up on the wrong side of the bed that morning.

[Alyrium Denryle]

I've just power read through all the Dresden novels twice in the past month and Harry definitely seems to speak of white and dark magic a 2 separate sides. If using magic to kill was always considered black, I highly doubt that they would let 1 wizard,

I am doing the same thing right now actually, and as far as I can tell from the world's metaphysics there is definitely something to be said for this position.

It is very clear that in Grave Peril, Dresden did in fact kill several humans and felt like shit. However he did so in self defense. In Storm Front it was made very apparent that Black Magic had more to do with intent and partaking in dark desires than with the actual effect of the magic.

[Bakustra]

Black magic, in the Dresdenverse, is not a variety of magic per se. Any magic used to break the Laws is considered black magic. Some varieties, such as telepathy and necromancy, are considered more inherently corruptive than homicide or precognition, both of which are permitted to limited extents. Note that this is the ideology of the White Council, which has been challenged by at least one "black mage" indirectly. It is impossible to use white magic to kill someone, as all magic that violates the Laws is black magic. Given a mortal world sufficiently devoted to wiping them out, some wizards may use black magic, but bear in mind that the ideology of the White Council is ingrained in Harry Dresden, (who was only definitely taught in its ways for several years as a young man), to such an extent that in Storm Front he is unable to initially conceive of someone using magic to kill in cold blood.

I've just power read through all the Dresden novels twice in the past month and Harry definitely seems to speak of white and dark magic a 2 separate sides. If using magic to kill was always considered black, I highly doubt that they would let 1 wizard, Spoiler

especially one of the high council

, use it freely. If the Blackstaff position was using black magic as you say, I think Harry would be much, much more concerned with Spoiler

McCoy's

usage of it don't you think? Harry describes using black magic as addictive and even the smallest usage can corrupt you. Spoiler

McCoy used magic to pull a communication satellite from orbit and killed quite a few people. Don't you think they'd be at least the smallest bit worried of corruption, not just the Council, but Harry as well?

Spoiler

In fact it seems to me that the Blackstaff position, at least as it is currently being used by McCoy, is probably still avoiding using black magic and is instead basically just being used to ignore the first law in relation to using white magic to kill.

Spoiler

Why do you think the Blackstaff is called the Blackstaff? Perhaps because he uses black magic? Further, when Dresden found out about McCoy's position, note that he immediately feels betrayed at the very thought of McCoy using magic to kill people, and finds it inconsistent with his soulgaze of McCoy as a goodhearted man. Dresden presumes, merely a few years before taking a renegade witch under his wing, that someone who uses magic for evil cannot be goodhearted or be kind in personality. This is strongly consistent with my theory of the White Council considering all illegal magic black magic. Do you have any specific counterexamples?

They're pretty damn forgiving for killings that can be construed as defensive though.

They would still have likely killed Dresden had Spoiler

McCoy not intervened

and they still placed him under the Doom of Damocles. Furthermore, it seems the very act of reading another's thoughts mandates the death penalty from the wording of the Third Law. Of course, the White Council are still free to kill any aliens or other freaks the U.S. Government can call upon in this scenario, as they do not count as human.

Yea they have something of a no exceptions rule, but Dresden probably wouldn't have even needed McCoy because they couldn't prove it was non-defensive as Dresden's was the only testimony. That shows they're pretty damn forgiving(relatively speaking regarding how they handle the Laws) regarding killing and magic and defense. They did kind of hope McCoy would just kill him but that wasn't to be. You can also toy with the wording of a few of the laws, especially the third. Invading someone's mind implies a lack of permission. Depending on who you are the council might ignore the circumstance and not kill you if you had permission, but then again if they don't like you they might kill you anyway. Could depend on something as little as which mage of the high council got up on the wrong side of the bed that morning.

Still incredibly arbitrary. Furthermore, they don't even research defenses against telepathy, Spoiler

as shown by Harry's mental defenses being described as amateurish and pathetic by Capiorcorpus, and him requiring Hellfire to stop her intrusion,

so it seems unlikely that they'd be particularly effective when attempting to use illegal magic, at least at first.

I've just power read through all the Dresden novels twice in the past month and Harry definitely seems to speak of white and dark magic a 2 separate sides. If using magic to kill was always considered black, I highly doubt that they would let 1 wizard,

I am doing the same thing right now actually, and as far as I can tell from the world's metaphysics there is definitely something to be said for this position.

It is very clear that in Grave Peril, Dresden did in fact kill several humans and felt like shit. However he did so in self defense. In Storm Front it was made very apparent that Black Magic had more to do with intent and partaking in dark desires than with the actual effect of the magic.

We are talking about the White Council's approach, though. They apparently consider any murderous magic to be black magic, which does fit in under intent, but you are saying they would, en masse, murder people in cold blood. Further, if black magic is a matter of intent, then why does the Council apparently refuse to even research illegal magic, and come down on anyone doing so? Their inability to defend against telepathic incursions is shown in Dead Beat.

[Gaidin]

We are talking about the White Council's approach, though. They apparently consider any murderous magic to be black magic, which does fit in under intent, but you are saying they would, en masse, murder people in cold blood. Further, if black magic is a matter of intent, then why does the Council apparently refuse to even research illegal magic, and come down on anyone doing so? Their inability to defend against telepathic incursions is shown in Dead Beat.

It's also shown pretty well in Turn Coat, what with the high council not having a damn clue their secretary has been manipulating them for years and has been undermining pretty much every warden that goes to Scotland on a consistent basis. I'm thinking we'll be seeing unofficial responses to that in the next book given the Grey Council that McCoy has formed, and I even wouldn't be surprised if the Merlin himself and the rest of the high council started playing dirty behind the scenes regarding defense against black magic even if they maintained a politically clean public image.

[Bakustra]

We are talking about the White Council's approach, though. They apparently consider any murderous magic to be black magic, which does fit in under intent, but you are saying they would, en masse, murder people in cold blood. Further, if black magic is a matter of intent, then why does the Council apparently refuse to even research illegal magic, and come down on anyone doing so? Their inability to defend against telepathic incursions is shown in Dead Beat.

It's also shown pretty well in Turn Coat, what with the high council not having a damn clue their secretary has been manipulating them for years and has been undermining pretty much every warden that goes to Scotland on a consistent basis. I'm thinking we'll be seeing unofficial responses to that in the next book given the Grey Council that McCoy has formed, and I even wouldn't be surprised if the Merlin himself and the rest of the high council started playing dirty behind the scenes regarding defense against black magic even if they maintained a politically clean public image.

That certainly seems more likely now that they've been particularly hurt by mind-altering magic. It really says a lot about the Council and its dogma/metaphysics that they are unwilling to do any research into mental magic, even for defensive purposes.

[Alyrium Denryle]

We are talking about the White Council's approach, though. They apparently consider any murderous magic to be black magic, which does fit in under intent, but you are saying they would, en masse, murder people in cold blood. Further, if black magic is a matter of intent, then why does the Council apparently refuse to even research illegal magic, and come down on anyone doing so? Their inability to defend against telepathic incursions is shown in Dead Beat.

Defending one's self or others against annihilation is not murder. They can invoke the Doctrine of Double Effect if they must and say that the intent was defense, the death was a side effect.

[Atavarius]

Spoiler

Why do you think the Blackstaff is called the Blackstaff? Perhaps because he uses black magic? Further, when Dresden found out about McCoy's position, note that he immediately feels betrayed at the very thought of McCoy using magic to kill people, and finds it inconsistent with his soulgaze of McCoy as a goodhearted man. Dresden presumes, merely a few years before taking a renegade witch under his wing, that someone who uses magic for evil cannot be goodhearted or be kind in personality. This is strongly consistent with my theory of the White Council considering all illegal magic black magic. Do you have any specific counterexamples?

Spoiler

Bloody hell. I am not arguing that the Blackstaff cannot use black magic. I am arguing that McCoy has obviously been allowed to kill people for a long time, and yet no mention is made of anyone in the bloody Dresden universe being worried about him being corrupted. He does not have a squad of Wardens following him around watching him pre-war. He is still the senior council's foremost combat wizard. They let him lead an effort to rescue the trainee Wardens! Would you let someone who is one of the most powerful wizards on the planet and possibly being corrupted by black magic lead an op to rescue the future fighting force of a severely depleted White Council?

Here is an example that I think best illustrates this. When Harry tries to kill Cowl. Cowl is a mortal, he may be a black magic practitioner, but he is still a mortal. Harry uses one of his normal white spells (Forzare, I checked). The last time Harry killed a warlock, Justin DuMorne, the Council put him up for trial. Yet this time Harry does not even worry about his attempt to kill Cowl, even though again it was in self defense (granted he has other things on his mind, but still he shows no worry at all).

Honestly though, I think we are kind of arguing the same thing just from different perspectives. You're saying that the White Council declares that all magic against the laws is black. You're arguing their doctrine. I am saying that might be true, but we have seen that there is a differentiation between white and black magic in universe. I think what it all comes down to is Butcher wants it one way (I suspect the way you say it), but has written in some wiggle room to keep the story going. I suspect we will have to wait until the conclusion of the series to get a 100% definitive, or at least close to definitive answer.

[Atavarius]

Bah missed the edit window.

I meant to say that we have seen that there is a differentiation between killing with white and black magic in universe.

[Bakustra]

Spoiler

Why do you think the Blackstaff is called the Blackstaff? Perhaps because he uses black magic? Further, when Dresden found out about McCoy's position, note that he immediately feels betrayed at the very thought of McCoy using magic to kill people, and finds it inconsistent with his soulgaze of McCoy as a goodhearted man. Dresden presumes, merely a few years before taking a renegade witch under his wing, that someone who uses magic for evil cannot be goodhearted or be kind in personality. This is strongly consistent with my theory of the White Council considering all illegal magic black magic. Do you have any specific counterexamples?

Spoiler

Bloody hell. I am not arguing that the Blackstaff cannot use black magic. I am arguing that McCoy has obviously been allowed to kill people for a long time, and yet no mention is made of anyone in the bloody Dresden universe being worried about him being corrupted. He does not have a squad of Wardens following him around watching him pre-war. He is still the senior council's foremost combat wizard. They let him lead an effort to rescue the trainee Wardens! Would you let someone who is one of the most powerful wizards on the planet and possibly being corrupted by black magic lead an op to rescue the future fighting force of a severely depleted White Council?

Here is an example that I think best illustrates this. When Harry tries to kill Cowl. Cowl is a mortal, he may be a black magic practitioner, but he is still a mortal. Harry uses one of his normal white spells (Forzare, I checked). The last time Harry killed a warlock, Justin DuMorne, the Council put him up for trial. Yet this time Harry does not even worry about his attempt to kill Cowl, even though again it was in self defense (granted he has other things on his mind, but still he shows no worry at all).

Honestly though, I think we are kind of arguing the same thing just from different perspectives. You're saying that the White Council declares that all magic against the laws is black. You're arguing their doctrine. I am saying that might be true, but we have seen that there is a differentiation between white and black magic in universe. I think what it all comes down to is Butcher wants it one way (I suspect the way you say it), but has written in some wiggle room to keep the story going. I suspect we will have to wait until the conclusion of the series to get a 100% definitive, or at least close to definitive answer.

Spoiler

I think that there are two levels of "black magic" in universe. I definitely think that the Council's doctrinaire stance causes them to generally equate the two, but there is some evidence to support the idea that altering the minds of others is corruptive, (e.g. Capiorcorpus and the warlock in the opening of Proven Guilty) while killing people is not, or else the White Council wouldn't have a self-defense exception. For that matter, neither is precognition/time travel, which suggests that while some of the laws (1st and 6th for sure, probably the 7th too) are to prevent abuses of power by wizards, the others may be due to debilitative effects on the soul. I will point out that we only see McCoy using his position as Blackstaff to break the first law. This is pure speculation mind, and I'm away from all of them except Turn Coat at the moment.

We are talking about the White Council's approach, though. They apparently consider any murderous magic to be black magic, which does fit in under intent, but you are saying they would, en masse, murder people in cold blood. Further, if black magic is a matter of intent, then why does the Council apparently refuse to even research illegal magic, and come down on anyone doing so? Their inability to defend against telepathic incursions is shown in Dead Beat.

Defending one's self or others against annihilation is not murder. They can invoke the Doctrine of Double Effect if they must and say that the intent was defense, the death was a side effect.

Spoiler

They really don't have anybody holding them accountable except the Unseelie Accords, so the only obstacle is the reluctance of most wizards to use magic for preemptively striking against the G-men in this scenario. Of course, they have faced annihilation before, from the Red Court, and did not do so then. Further, I will note that that was only Shep masturbating to the death of magical individuals, and his scenario betrays more than a little ignorance about the Dresden Files. I seriously doubt, from what The Romulan Republic has said, that the shadowy conspiracy of shadows will necessarily try to wipe out the wizards.

[The Romulan Republic]

Bakustra's right, in that there's really no probability of the alien conspiracy to get involved. Sure, they might crack down on the wizards if they knew about them, but if the wizards have stayed hidden this long, they'll probably stay hidden now. I doubt the conspiracy would give a shit about Mulder's investigations except where they interfere with the conspiracy's goals. Why would the Greys or their human pawns give a flying fuck if some FBI Agents are investigating wearwolves in Chicago? If anything, they'll be glad to have Mulder's attention elsewhere for a while.

Of course, I'm not denying its interesting to speculate about what such a conflict would be like.

[Bakustra]

Bakustra's right, in that there's really no probability of the alien conspiracy to get involved. Sure, they might crack down on the wizards if they knew about them, but if the wizards have stayed hidden this long, they'll probably stay hidden now. I doubt the conspiracy would give a shit about Mulder's investigations except where they interfere with the conspiracy's goals. Why would the Greys or their human pawns give a flying fuck if some FBI Agents are investigating wearwolves in Chicago? If anything, they'll be glad to have Mulder's attention elsewhere for a while.

Of course, I'm not denying its interesting to speculate about what such a conflict would be like.

If we presume that the two universes merge, then we already have statements about supernatural influence in government and the military and it's fairly minimal. The vampires are the only group to really enter into the US government, and only at local levels. The vamps do have larger presences within the entertainment industry and South and Central American governments, depending on the "species," though. Granted, there does seem to be some kind of MiB in the Dresdenverse, as in the original Fool Moon, the footage gained of one of the werewolves was shown briefly on local news before vanishing mysteriously.

Of course, the wizards remain hidden through a mix of Buffy-esque willful blindness on the part of society and the fact that the only organized wizard groups are fairly exclusive and secretive, leaving a large number of people with minor talents forming the mystical communities of most cities around the world. The actual members tend to reside in fairly remote locales, excepting a few like Dresden and Liberty, as well, and they are fairly isolationist. The conspirators are likely to be allowed to sign the Unseelie Accords and gain official recognition, given the other groups that have joined, unless they decide to pull the "purge-by-fire" routine immediately, the end results of which would vary depending on just how the fey respond.

[PainRack]

Spoiler

[rant]I'm curious as to how the Denarians maintain a position as part of the Unseelie Accords. They regularly disregard them blatantly, generally act in such a way as to draw more attention to the supernatural, and attempt to murder millions of people through magic. Why hasn't the White Council placed kill-on-sight orders for them? Is it impossible to kick somebody out of the accords once they're in? (If so, then why does anybody care about breaking the accords, if they're meaningless?) It's not as though the typical Denarian is that formidable, whining from TVTropes about downgrading aside. We see the White Council enforcing the law on a number of ordinary people. Do they simply consider their jurisdiction to not include the Denarians? For that matter, why does the Church keep the coins instead of welding them in a steel block, or dumping them in an abyssal region, or for that matter, getting them aboard a rocket to geosynch? This is without considering the possibility of melting the coins down, which, granted, is probably unlikely to work, but you'd think somebody would try, at least.

(Please spoilerize for the benefit of the OP.)

Spoiler

We don't know what parts of the Unseelie Accords they belong to. Similarly, they haven't actually been seen to violate the major bits of the Accords in universe. Remember, the only known source of them always being treacherous is their dealings with the knights of the Cross and they aren't part of the Accords.White Night also establishes that apparently, massacaring the populace isn't violating the Accords..... its only when someone steps in to defend them and claim political authority over them that is. As it is, Mab DID step in to defend the Accords by sending Dresden..... a wizard whoose power is supposed to be comparable with One of the Three Swords.
As for melting the coins down, I believe Traitor covers that. They can't. They need something to break the spells first, similar to how Harry broken the Sword of Love and Nicodemus plans to trick him into breaking the Sword of Faith.

[Bakustra]

Spoiler

[rant]I'm curious as to how the Denarians maintain a position as part of the Unseelie Accords. They regularly disregard them blatantly, generally act in such a way as to draw more attention to the supernatural, and attempt to murder millions of people through magic. Why hasn't the White Council placed kill-on-sight orders for them? Is it impossible to kick somebody out of the accords once they're in? (If so, then why does anybody care about breaking the accords, if they're meaningless?) It's not as though the typical Denarian is that formidable, whining from TVTropes about downgrading aside. We see the White Council enforcing the law on a number of ordinary people. Do they simply consider their jurisdiction to not include the Denarians? For that matter, why does the Church keep the coins instead of welding them in a steel block, or dumping them in an abyssal region, or for that matter, getting them aboard a rocket to geosynch? This is without considering the possibility of melting the coins down, which, granted, is probably unlikely to work, but you'd think somebody would try, at least.

(Please spoilerize for the benefit of the OP.)

Spoiler

We don't know what parts of the Unseelie Accords they belong to. Similarly, they haven't actually been seen to violate the major bits of the Accords in universe. Remember, the only known source of them always being treacherous is their dealings with the knights of the Cross and they aren't part of the Accords.White Night also establishes that apparently, massacaring the populace isn't violating the Accords..... its only when someone steps in to defend them and claim political authority over them that is. As it is, Mab DID step in to defend the Accords by sending Dresden..... a wizard whoose power is supposed to be comparable with One of the Three Swords.
As for melting the coins down, I believe Traitor covers that. They can't. They need something to break the spells first, similar to how Harry broken the Sword of Love and Nicodemus plans to trick him into breaking the Sword of Faith.

Spoiler

You know, I never thought about it that way. (Mab using Harry to enforce the accords.) That's actually pretty clever. The situation with the coins is unsurprising, alas. I will note that none of the people to be massacred in White Night actually belonged to any Accord-signing group, so they are essentially free game until someone declares responsibility for them, which is why Dresden and Elaine established the Ordo Lebes, as the White Council wouldn't take on such a responsibility when they're in the middle of a war that's going poorly. As for the Denarians and treachery, you do make a good point. Further, Nicodemus seems to be the one signed on as a freeholding lord, which explains why the Winter Court hasn't actively condemned or accused him of a role in the attack on Arctis Tor.

[PainRack]

Spoiler

You know, I never thought about it that way. (Mab using Harry to enforce the accords.) That's actually pretty clever. The situation with the coins is unsurprising, alas. I will note that none of the people to be massacred in White Night actually belonged to any Accord-signing group, so they are essentially free game until someone declares responsibility for them, which is why Dresden and Elaine established the Ordo Lebes, as the White Council wouldn't take on such a responsibility when they're in the middle of a war that's going poorly. As for the Denarians and treachery, you do make a good point. Further, Nicodemus seems to be the one signed on as a freeholding lord, which explains why the Winter Court hasn't actively condemned or accused him of a role in the attack on Arctis Tor.

Spoiler

Is there any evidence that the ordo Lebes is part of the Accords and etc? It would seem that the Para-net that Harry and Elaine set up is something apart from the Wardens and the White Council. A private group that's relatively pro-active. Remember, the White Council apparently only takes the top percentile in wizards and ignores everyone else training, apart from telling them they can't break the Laws of Magic. We don't really know their system though.. the only things we do know is that to become a Wizard requires a Trial of some sort, and a duel is an acceptable form of Trial.

[Bakustra]

Spoiler

Is there any evidence that the ordo Lebes is part of the Accords and etc? It would seem that the Para-net that Harry and Elaine set up is something apart from the Wardens and the White Council. A private group that's relatively pro-active. Remember, the White Council apparently only takes the top percentile in wizards and ignores everyone else training, apart from telling them they can't break the Laws of Magic. We don't really know their system though.. the only things we do know is that to become a Wizard requires a Trial of some sort, and a duel is an acceptable form of Trial.

Spoiler

There isn't any evidence for it, but I suspect that the Para-net/Ordo Lebes will eventually try to sign the Accords, if only for the protection it grants them against vampire raiders, particularly if they can pick up allies like the Fellowship of St. Giles and possibly the White Council. Of course, this is pure speculation. The White Council seems to be fairly exclusive, as Kumori being a potential member of the White Council was something noteworthy enough for Harry to report it to the Wardens.

[PainRack]

Spoiler

There isn't any evidence for it, but I suspect that the Para-net/Ordo Lebes will eventually try to sign the Accords, if only for the protection it grants them against vampire raiders, particularly if they can pick up allies like the Fellowship of St. Giles and possibly the White Council. Of course, this is pure speculation. The White Council seems to be fairly exclusive, as Kumori being a potential member of the White Council was something noteworthy enough for Harry to report it to the Wardens.

Spoiler

Signing the accords actually OPEN them up to challenges by other parties of the Accord, along with the dangers of host/mediators and etc. Marcone signing the Accords is understandable. Without the Accords, he couldn't actually challenge any of the supernatural forces targeting his organisation, and he hired supernatural muscle via Gard. The Paranet on the other hand goals are aimed at survival, not at becoming a major political power. The repercussions alone if the Merlin discovered the intent of the Para-net to sign the Accord would be enormous. Dresden would immediately be designated a traitor and a political opportunist. As for Kumori, Dresden suspicion of her being a White Council rests entirely on the fact that she was attempting to coneal her identity from him. That and the fact that she had considerable more power than the normal practitioner.

It would be interesting to know how the White Council and magical training is conducted in the Dresden verse. Snippets of Dresden training and Mai views aside, magic is apparently easy enough that it can be picked up without formal or apprentenice training like Kim and Victor Sells. Indeed, Spoiler

Thomas Raith can do a tracking spell in one of the spin off short stories. In the same short, he compared himself as attending a two month vocational educational course while Harry had multiple degrees from MIT, Yales and Harvard. He also noted that magic was a skill and it was exhausting and give people headaches.

. Of course, Dresden concern that Victor may had some training by rogue wizards is plausible.

[Bakustra]

Spoiler

There isn't any evidence for it, but I suspect that the Para-net/Ordo Lebes will eventually try to sign the Accords, if only for the protection it grants them against vampire raiders, particularly if they can pick up allies like the Fellowship of St. Giles and possibly the White Council. Of course, this is pure speculation. The White Council seems to be fairly exclusive, as Kumori being a potential member of the White Council was something noteworthy enough for Harry to report it to the Wardens.

Spoiler

Signing the accords actually OPEN them up to challenges by other parties of the Accord, along with the dangers of host/mediators and etc. Marcone signing the Accords is understandable. Without the Accords, he couldn't actually challenge any of the supernatural forces targeting his organisation, and he hired supernatural muscle via Gard. The Paranet on the other hand goals are aimed at survival, not at becoming a major political power. The repercussions alone if the Merlin discovered the intent of the Para-net to sign the Accord would be enormous. Dresden would immediately be designated a traitor and a political opportunist. As for Kumori, Dresden suspicion of her being a White Council rests entirely on the fact that she was attempting to coneal her identity from him. That and the fact that she had considerable more power than the normal practitioner.

It would be interesting to know how the White Council and magical training is conducted in the Dresden verse. Snippets of Dresden training and Mai views aside, magic is apparently easy enough that it can be picked up without formal or apprentenice training like Kim and Victor Sells. Indeed, Spoiler

Thomas Raith can do a tracking spell in one of the spin off short stories. In the same short, he compared himself as attending a two month vocational educational course while Harry had multiple degrees from MIT, Yales and Harvard. He also noted that magic was a skill and it was exhausting and give people headaches.

. Of course, Dresden concern that Victor may had some training by rogue wizards is plausible.

Spoiler

Some of Butcher's quotes suggest that magic may be partly genetic, and partly a result of the environment somebody grows up in. A number of people probably have a small talent (like werewolves) that can be awakened under the right conditions. Kim herself seems to have been skilled enough to make the grand circle on her own before the FBI agents sabotaged it, but not good enough for the Council. Perhaps the Council is extremely picky.

[Gaidin]

The vibe I'd been getting from the books is that the Council doesn't really care for specialists. There are plenty of people that can match the Council bit for bit in their field but had no ability in anything else. While the Council has its own specialists, they aren't limited to just their talents. Though yea you are right, power level is also a factor, as Elaine so aptly demonstrated when she failed out on purpose.

[Bakustra]

The vibe I'd been getting from the books is that the Council doesn't really care for specialists. There are plenty of people that can match the Council bit for bit in their field but had no ability in anything else. While the Council has its own specialists, they aren't limited to just their talents. Though yea you are right, power level is also a factor, as Elaine so aptly demonstrated when she failed out on purpose.

That makes sense. Dresden seems to lack any talent in Spoiler

ectomancy,

for example.

[PainRack]

Bakustra, I believe the OP asked us to place spoilers around events occuring in novels beyond Fool Moon as he had not read them yet. It shouldn't be neccesary to put in spoilers stuff from Fool Moon.

Also, is there any evidence that Kim actually COULD had imprisoned the werewolf? If anything, the novel read as the original circle being broken, and Kim attempts to repair/hold him in the second month failed.

[Bakustra]

Bakustra, I believe the OP asked us to place spoilers around events occuring in novels beyond Fool Moon as he had not read them yet. It shouldn't be neccesary to put in spoilers stuff from Fool Moon.

Also, is there any evidence that Kim actually COULD had imprisoned the werewolf? If anything, the novel read as the original circle being broken, and Kim attempts to repair/hold him in the second month failed.

I thought that Kim managed to make another circle, which was then fucked up by the FBI agents. Unfortunately, I don't have Fool Moon handy at the moment, and won't for another week in all likelihood. Of course, it's quite possible that the Loup-Garou couldn't have broken the circle on its own, either, and the only problem would be in ensuring an accurate circle and in investing enough initial power to keep the circle "running". Hmm. Could somebody with a copy handy clear this up for us?

[PainRack]

From my copy.

The scarlet footprints of something like a large wolf led in a straight line toward the shattered window. In the center of the room were the remains of a greater circle of summoning, its three rings of symbols carefully wrought in white chalk upon the wooden floor, burning sticks of incense interspersed among the symbols of the second ring. What was left of Kim Delaney lay naked and supine.....

Later on in the search in another room

In the center of the chamber was another three-ring summoning circle, but this one's symbols had been made from silver and set into the concrete of the floor. Short bars of what looked like a mixture of silver and obsidian were interspersed around the second circle

The one broke up by the FBI occured a month before Kim approached Dresden.

it is possible that Kim did imprison MacFinn once or so depending on the night of the full moon and his transformation, but is there any evidence that this occured? The exact dates of MacFinn transformation is unclear and so far, all the internal evidence from Fool Moon, including Tera West condemnation of Kim suggest otherwise.