Swiss vote bans minarets

[charlemagne]

So I'm curious. Some of you are from various European countries. What's your take? What solution do you advocate?

My take is that banning minarets is a horrible, stupid and disgusting thing to do. Doesn't matter if they're built all over the place or not. Banning minarets is something that shouldn't even occur to someone living in a supposedly enlightened environment. I feel ashamed that so many xenophobic stupid fucktarts that aren't even afraid to show their xenophobic stupidness in this way are living right here in the middle of Europe. Minarets in Europe aren't used by angry towelheads advocating the killing of non-believers. Banning them is like banning church towers because there's tons of angry delusional gay-hating "Christians" in the southern US.

[Dooey Jo]

This whole thing with muslims is a problem going on all over Europe. Sure, in this case, the muslims are fairly moderate, but not all are. See the issue over the Mohammed cartoons for example.

So I'm curious. Some of you are from various European countries. What's your take? What solution do you advocate?

Are you asking for a solution to the Jewish Muslim problem

The solution is to make uneducated shitheads realise that Islam is not some kind of huge hive mind, and that what people do in holes like Saudi-Arabia shouldn't reflect on Muslims here, any more than Christian terrorists bombing abortion clinics, or the Pope not liking condoms, reflects on other Christians. The solution is to point out the huge fucking absurdity in the idea that an ethnically diverse small minority can somehow take over our judicial system, remove "our" culture, and steal "our" women. In short, the solution is to make ignorant people see their own ignorance and enlighten them.

But good luck with that.

[hongi]

BERLIN (JTA) -- A mainstream Swiss political leader is calling for a ban on separate Muslim and Jewish cemeteries.

Christophe Darbellay, president of the Christian Democratic People's Party of Switzerland, made the statement in a television interview Tuesday, two days after Swiss voters passed an initiative to ban minarets.

Like attracts like. Assimilate or get out Muslims and Jews!

[Sarevok]

Is there anything rest of the EU can do about this ban on minarets ? Switzerland is not in the EU iirc. So is there anyway rest of the European community can convince them without sounding like interfering in domestic affairs ?

[wolveraptor]

It's weird, I'm used to thinking of Europe as so liberal and progressive. This kind of asshattery is supposed to happen here in America, not over there.

[Elfdart]

This reminds me of when Oklahoma banned whaling.

[salm]

It's weird, I'm used to thinking of Europe as so liberal and progressive. This kind of asshattery is supposed to happen here in America, not over there.

Eh, we´ve got our share of racism, sexism, homophobia and other backwardness. There are loads and loads of assholes in Europe.

[CJvR]

It's weird, I'm used to thinking of Europe as so liberal and progressive. This kind of asshattery is supposed to happen here in America, not over there.

The Swiss have a unique advantage in this kind of issues in their direct democracy. In most other nations opinions like this exists and are probably much stronger than what the election results for the extremist parties would indicate. But since most of the voters are not quite readdy to vote on only one issue in a general election there is no outlet for such attitudes.

[Civil War Man]

It's weird, I'm used to thinking of Europe as so liberal and progressive. This kind of asshattery is supposed to happen here in America, not over there.

My sister lives in Switzerland, having moved there from the bastion of New England liberalism where we grew up, and she had the same reaction. There are some segments of Europe that are fairly casual and open about their racism. At one point she told me that she suspects that one of the reasons is that the South was extremely violent in its attempt at oppressing blacks during the Civil Rights Era, and the images are still pretty fresh in the nation's memory.

It kinda goes both ways. On the one hand, the Civil Rights Era being relatively recent means we still have a lot of old racists. But it also means there are still a lot of people who remember the lynchings, the church bombings, siccing attack dogs on protestors, etc.

Also apparently the vote differed from canton to canton (a Swiss canton being similar to a state in the US). Most of the support for the ban came from the predominantly German and Italian cantons, while most of the opposition was in the French cantons.

[[R_H]]

Also apparently the vote differed from canton to canton (a Swiss canton being similar to a state in the US). Most of the support for the ban came from the predominantly German and Italian cantons, while most of the opposition was in the French cantons.

The cities Basel and Zürich voted against the ban, I'm not sure if the other large(r) ones were in favour or opposed. The Tessiner and Innerschwyzer (probably the most religious, and Catholic regions) voted strongly in favour of the ban.

[Darth Wong]

It's weird, I'm used to thinking of Europe as so liberal and progressive. This kind of asshattery is supposed to happen here in America, not over there.

I don't know why people always assume this. Europe has a long history of racism and backward-assed thinking. It's a popular notion that World War 2 completely purged all of that shit, but that's impossible and you know it. The ultimate catastrophe of WW2 strengthened liberalist and progressive social movements, but it certainly didn't erase all of the centuries of prejudice and tradition which led up to it.

I don't know why Switzerland in particular gets such a pass. That country has served as a haven for organized crime and war criminals for decades, sheltering Nazi money in WW2 and helping tax evaders escape justice from other countries ever since. It's only been in very recent years that the Swiss banks and government have loosened up on their insistence on absolute privacy for their customers.

[Korgeta]

Am in partial agreement with the ban, minarets are there to dominate the thought of the mass, it's noisy and disruptful (and i do say this out of experince). For that matter i hate bell towers as well. The swiss aren't racist, certinely not over half the voters, but it seems there is a problem with intergration of other faiths and culture. At least the swiss get a vote on what they want. Actually there has been to an extent in the UK and other countries a problem with cultural intergration. Many who immigrate over (like in switzerland) are from the eastern european countries and not all assimilate straight away to that the lifestyle of that country. Faith for western europeans it is just a nod to tradition for some immigrating from eastern europe, it's a source of cultural integrity and ultimately there will be a clash between those two elements. However some will make that out as a sign of intrusion on their way of life as it seems to be the case in switzerland.

[Siege]

Is there anything rest of the EU can do about this ban on minarets ? Switzerland is not in the EU iirc. So is there anyway rest of the European community can convince them without sounding like interfering in domestic affairs ?

The European Court of Justice could force Switzerland to lift the ban. Quite a few people are arguing that the ban is contrary to the European Convention on Human Rights, so the ECJ might decide to overturn the law on that basis. That, however, would in turn mean the ECJ has just forced the Swiss to change their constitution, which would probably mean the Swiss would have to vote on the reversion as well. How that turns out would be anybody's guess at this time.

There's also the European Court of Human Rights but its president, Mr. Jean-Paul Costa, has already said it is unlikely the case will end up before it, since in order for the ECHR to take it up as a case someone has to demonstrate they are a direct victim of the ban. Considering it's banning minarets, not infringing on the actual freedom of Muslims to practice their religion, it'll probably be argued that the ban does not victimize anyone directly and so the ECHR won't have jurisdiction over the matter.

Mike also has it right with respect to the perception of European progressiveness. Europe, or the EU for that matter, is far from a single homogeneous culture. Bits and pieces of it are flaming liberal and progressive by most American standards, but at the very same time other bits and pieces are conservative as all hell, xenophobic, racist, regressive, extremely religious, or a combination of those. We're no different than the USA in that respect: just because Washington might be a liberal haven does not mean Georgia is as well.

[Sarevok]

Am in partial agreement with the ban, minarets are there to dominate the thought of the mass, it's noisy and disruptful (and i do say this out of experince). For that matter i hate bell towers as well. The swiss aren't racist, certinely not over half the voters, but it seems there is a problem with intergration of other faiths and culture. At least the swiss get a vote on what they want. Actually there has been to an extent in the UK and other countries a problem with cultural intergration. Many who immigrate over (like in switzerland) are from the eastern european countries and not all assimilate straight away to that the lifestyle of that country. Faith for western europeans it is just a nod to tradition for some immigrating from eastern europe, it's a source of cultural integrity and ultimately there will be a clash between those two elements. However some will make that out as a sign of intrusion on their way of life as it seems to be the case in switzerland.

Well minarats are not allowed to broadcast azan over loud speakerd in Switzerland. That is an acceptable restriction. So given that is the case I dont see how they can disruptive to non muslims.

[Stark]

And since they won't take the existing ones down and don't even MENTION preventing the call to prayer, simply talking about them as structures, I don't see how that's relevant.

It's laughable that anyone could think banning a religious structure would HELP 'integration'.

[Spoonist]

It's weird, I'm used to thinking of Europe as so liberal and progressive. This kind of asshattery is supposed to happen here in America, not over there.

I don't know why Switzerland in particular gets such a pass. That country has served as a haven for organized crime and war criminals for decades, sheltering Nazi money in WW2 and helping tax evaders escape justice from other countries ever since. It's only been in very recent years that the Swiss banks and government have loosened up on their insistence on absolute privacy for their customers.

Ah, but you got to remember its recession time and europe definately have a history of xenophobia during recessions. Also the biggest block in the EU are the "christian democrats" after all.

[Lusankya]

Personally, now that I'm running into more Europeans than I did in Australia, I'm beginning to think that a large part of Europe's reputation for being liberal and progressive is that many places in Europe don't have the same kind of racial mix that's prevalent in the New World countries, which means that racial tensions don't get so much press. My German housemate tried to argue that Chinatowns (which in Australia, at least, are basically cafe strips, except for Chinese food and not coffee) and bilingual second generation immigrants were signs that immigrants were choosing not to integrate properly. I don't think he was joking, but throughout the entire conversation, he seemed unable to get his head around the idea that integration was a two-way street.

I think it's rather easy to claim not to be racist when you don't have to worry about pesky things like your culture being influenced by migrants or deal with people from vastly different cultures. Actually being exposed to such things makes you more aware of the subtle things that can actually be really offensive.

[The Grim Squeaker]

It's weird, I'm used to thinking of Europe as so liberal and progressive. This kind of asshattery is supposed to happen here in America, not over there.

The USA is far less xenophobic than Europe, and much more culturally open and better at assimilating immigrants. (Moslems included).
The US is politically & culturally more right wing than much of Western Europe, but it's less hidebound.

In other words, better to be a black man in Kentucky than a black man in Moscow (was how someone put it).

[charlemagne]

My German housemate tried to argue that Chinatowns (which in Australia, at least, are basically cafe strips, except for Chinese food and not coffee) and bilingual second generation immigrants were signs that immigrants were choosing not to integrate properly. I don't think he was joking, but throughout the entire conversation, he seemed unable to get his head around the idea that integration was a two-way street.

I think it's rather easy to claim not to be racist when you don't have to worry about pesky things like your culture being influenced by migrants or deal with people from vastly different cultures. Actually being exposed to such things makes you more aware of the subtle things that can actually be really offensive.

Yeah, there's truth to that. Most people around here are scared of immigrants because they talk their native language at home and kinda "stay to themselves", i.e. moving to places where lots of their (ex-)countrymen live.

[Bounty]

]Ah, but you got to remember its recession time and europe definately have a history of xenophobia during recessions. Also the biggest block in the EU are the "christian democrats" after all.

Your point being? Unless you want to try and argue that Christian Democrats are actually all xenophobes, in which case I have to question your political awareness.

[ray245]

My German housemate tried to argue that Chinatowns (which in Australia, at least, are basically cafe strips, except for Chinese food and not coffee) and bilingual second generation immigrants were signs that immigrants were choosing not to integrate properly. I don't think he was joking, but throughout the entire conversation, he seemed unable to get his head around the idea that integration was a two-way street.

I think it's rather easy to claim not to be racist when you don't have to worry about pesky things like your culture being influenced by migrants or deal with people from vastly different cultures. Actually being exposed to such things makes you more aware of the subtle things that can actually be really offensive.

Yeah, there's truth to that. Most people around here are scared of immigrants because they talk their native language at home and kinda "stay to themselves", i.e. moving to places where lots of their (ex-)countrymen live.

You doesn't even need to speak in your second language to make people scared. In Singapore, there is a lot of dislike towards Chinese immigrants ( from China) even though most Singaporeans do speak Chinese.

Additionally, even though there are a lot of cultural similarities between Singaporean and Mainland Chinese, a lot of people here still form some kind of hatred and dislike towards the sub-culture of Mainland Chinese.

[salm]

]Ah, but you got to remember its recession time and europe definately have a history of xenophobia during recessions. Also the biggest block in the EU are the "christian democrats" after all.

Your point being? Unless you want to try and argue that Christian Democrats are actually all xenophobes, in which case I have to question your political awareness.

You have to admit, though, that christian democrats are more likely to have xenophobic tendencies than for example social democrats.

[Bounty]

]Ah, but you got to remember its recession time and europe definately have a history of xenophobia during recessions. Also the biggest block in the EU are the "christian democrats" after all.

Your point being? Unless you want to try and argue that Christian Democrats are actually all xenophobes, in which case I have to question your political awareness.

You have to admit, though, that christian democrats are more likely to have xenophobic tendencies than for example social democrats.

"More likely to have xenophobic tendencies", perhaps, not not outright xenophobic. That's left to the loony fascist-wannabe parties.

[Spoonist]

Ah, but you got to remember its recession time and europe definately have a history of xenophobia during recessions. Also the biggest block in the EU are the "christian democrats" after all.

Your point being? Unless you want to try and argue that Christian Democrats are actually all xenophobes, in which case I have to question your political awareness.

Nice, not only a did you miss an obvious reply to wolveraptor. You also did a nice indefencible strawman to fire upon. How could one even possibly (without stimulants) get from my statement to "all cristian democrats must be xenophobes" that is just plain dumb.

I will embellish so that even you get it:
No, europe is not as liberal/progressive as most americans assume, the biggest political block in the EU are Christian Democrats who are conservative right wing with a bit of "christian morals" sprinkled on top. Now just as in the US those christian morals are not the ones preached by Jesus and his disciples in the new testament but rather the version from church tradition.
Then you have the Europe of Freedom and Democracy Group which, without irony, as one of their 'programme' has: "Peoples and Nations of Europe have the right to protect their borders and strengthen their own historical, traditional, religious and cultural values. The Group rejects xenophobia, anti-Semitism and any other form of discrimination." You know that they are nice people when they have to include that second sentance. (In europe most countries actually have hate speech laws that trumps free speech, so for example the KKK would be illegal).
On top of this we also have the European Conservatives and Reformists Group which in response to accusations (in the UK) of homophobia and racism pointed the finger and said that the accusation was hypocrtitical becasue the EU's socialist block have anti-semites, ex-terrorists and homphobes. Yupp, that is right, that fish is definately red.
In between them these groups have 352/736 of the EU parliament. That is almost half. But to that you got to add almost 30 seats of right wing loons.

Which brings me to the really funny part, we had a "Nationalists of europe, Unite!" block. Yes, read it again, think about the implications. Yes they failed spectacularly to hold together after Mussolini's granddaughter insulting the others' ethnicity. But they are still there in the EU among the Non-Inscrits which is usually a collection of nutjobs who can not even get along with anyone long enough to have a block. So these are the friends of the Swiss party with the minaret vote.

So europe has more than its share of conservatives. But what we do have that the US don't is actual liberals, socialists, communists, feminists, environmentalists, etc, in political parties so that is where some of the progressive parts come from.

Now just for you Bounty here are my claims:
1) Yes you will find more xenophobes in the Group of the European People's Party, the European Conservatives and Reformists Group, Europe of Freedom and Democracy Group and most certainly in the leftovers of the Identity, Tradition, Sovereignty group than in the Group of the Progressive Alliance of Socialists and Democrats in the European Parliament, Group of the Alliance of Liberals and Democrats for Europe, Group of the Greens/European Free Alliance or Confederal Group of the European United Left - Nordic Green Left.
2) Yes, xenophobia goes up in europe during and directly after recessions. Especially not just talking but acting upon it.
3) You must have been in a strange mindset to go so overboard on my post.

[Bounty]

How could one even possibly (without stimulants) get from my statement to "all cristian democrats must be xenophobes" that is just plain dumb.

Possibly by you backing up a statement about xenophobia in Europe by taking a potshot at Christian-Democrats, who are hardly xenophobic.

It's cute how you then try to weasel out of that snafu by linking to movements not in the EPP, which is akin to proving the Dalai Lama is racist by linking to the Ku Klux Klan website.

Now, if somewhere buried in your furious backpedalling is the point you may have been clumsily trying to make - that there is xenophobia in the EU - I can only say "no shit Sherlock". If you still cling on to the idea that the presence of a majority Christian-Democrat block is some sort of proof of this xenophobia, or that Chrstian-Democrats are xenophobes, you are an idiot.