SDN World 3 Rules Discussion Thread

[Norseman]

I kind of like the military stuff, that part *does* make sense, but the civil development stuff... I mean fer crying out loud I do *not* want to be planning every road and large scale dam in *BRAZIL*.

I think it would be possible to outline major projects (e.g. 300 MW dam in X river) as well as general goals for road construction across multiple cities, for example. So 1000 km of urban road construction, 3000 MW of dams, or something. It won't be necessary to lay out every city plan, development and suburb extension! (unless you want to.)

Even that is too much! Note I will devote IBPs to one project, but it is an absolutely enormous project on the scale of the Hoover Dam. Other than that I want to just RP it, I hate paperwork! Stop trying to think of more numbercrunching! I don't want to think about how mayn thousand miles of road I may or may not have made!

[Coyote]

I admit it is an imperfect system; in some ways it is very detailed (facilites per 5,000 people in a city, for example) and in other ways it is very broad and general (no way to really gauge reinforced building types).

I posted it so that it could be a source of consideration but by no means is it to be taken as a Commandment that we have to adopt the system. It can be taken in parts, as well-- for example, some may like the way the military costs are structured, but not the rest.

We could just simplify things even more and generally say that certain projects are "small scale" and cost 2 IBPs, some are "medium scale" and cost 4 IBPs, and some are "large scale" that cost 5 IBPs, and some are "mega engineering feats" that cost 10 IBPs. Something like Hoover Dam would be a "mega feat".

Like I said, this is by no means set in stone.

[Thanas]

No way I am going to read through those lines of text and then figure out what I want to do etc. Let's just RP it completely.

Also: No way I am going to redo my budget according to these new construction rules. WTH is this, the tenth rulechange in two weeks?

[Steve]

Jeez, this isn't a rule change. It's Coyote making proposals on how to quantify various infrastructure improvements. A proposal he's brought public on the question of allowing industrial expansion so that we might have inspiration for such things and which I already turned down as a model for use in the game.

[Coyote]

I just presented it as something to think about, and pick and choose what is liked and discarding the rest if desired. I presented a similar version of this to Steve in PM a week or so ago and he rejected the idea, but I decided to present it in cse there was either something worth salvaging, or, if someone sees the germ of an idea that they can take and modify into something better, more logical, etc.

[Thanas]

The rules about population, economy, industry, etc stay the same. This is for tracking IBPs.


COYOTE'S PROPOSED IDEA FOR IBP TRACKING/COSTS and RAISING SCORES:


The costs given here are to RAISE a NEW UNIT. It takes 1 year to do that.
Once the Brigade/Squadron/etc is raised, cut the cost in 1/2. That is how much it costs to MAINTAIN.
If you wish, wait until you have assembled your DIVISIONS, WINGS or SHIP as you like them, then cut the cost of the whole unit in half. It may be easier to keep track that way.


The Army:
1 IBP = 1 Light Infantry Brigade of 5,000 men (includes support units).
3 IBPs = 1 Infantry Division.
Prerequisite: None
Horse transport cost: add +1 per Brigade (doesn't make them Cavalry)
Engineers: add +1 per Brigade. Prereq: Econ & Ind must equal 4.
Commando/Sturmtruppen: add +2 per Brigade. Prereq: Econ & Ind =5

2 IBPs = Motorized Brigade (Infantry in trucks; OR armored cars; OR motorcycles)
6 IBPs = Motorized Division
Prerequisite: None
Engineers: add +1 per Brigade.
Commando/Sturmtruppen: add +2 per Brigade.

3 IBPs = Cavalry Brigade
9 IBPs = Cavalry Division
Prerequisite: None

5 IBPs = Armored Tank Brigade
15 IBPs = Armored Tank Division
Prerequisite:
WW1 era tech: Industry, Econ and Infrastructure must equal 4 or more
Postwar tech: Industry, Econ and Infrastructure must equal 5 or more

4 IBPs = Artillery Brigade, Horse (Tractored: +1)
12 IBPs = Artillery Division, Horse (Tractored: +1)
Prerequisite:
Horse-drawn: Industry, Econ and Infrastructure must equal 5 or more
Tractored: Industry, Econ and Infrastructure must equal 6 or more

This allows you to create "triangle" or "square" (or even "hexagonic") combined-arms Divisions as you see fit; the cost per Division will rise accordingly.

-------------------------------

Air Force:
4 IBPs = Fighter Squadron, pre-war type. War era: +1; postwar: +2
12 IBPs = Fighter Wing, pre-war type. War era: +3; postwar: +6
Prerequisite:
pre-war: Industry, Econ and Infrastructure must equal 4 or more
war-era: Industry, Econ and Infrastructure must equal 5 or more
postwar: Industry, Econ and Infrastructure must equal 6 or more

5 IBPs = Bomber Squadron, pre-war type. War era: +1; postwar: +2
12 IBPs = Bomber Wing, pre-war type. War era: +3; postwar: +6
Prerequisite:
pre-war: Industry, Econ and Infrastructure must equal 4 or more
war-era: Industry, Econ and Infrastructure must equal 5 or more
postwar: Industry, Econ and Infrastructure must equal 6 or more

5 IBPs = Autogyro Squadron
15 IBPs = Autogyro Wing
Prerequisite: Industry, Econ and Infrastructure must equal 5 or more

Note: for specialized aircraft, ie flying boats, floatplanes, or aircraft with special gear attached such as arrestor hooks, parasite fighter attachments, or catapault launch gear, add +1 per Squadron.

Zeppelins:
10 IBPs = 1 Zeppelin
Prerequisite: Industry, Econ and Infrastructure must equal 5 or more

-------------------------------

The Navy:
Ships:
1 IBP = 1000 tons worth of ship. (so, 5 IBPs makes a 5000 ton ship, etc)
Submarines are x2 cost.

Yeah, this is a proposed rule change and quite an extensive one.

[Steve]

That's why I rejected it.

[Steve]

Anyway, going to go ahead and kill maintenance costs for now.

If I ever bring them back, I may set a "cap" for them at, say, 10 IBPs per service (so never more than 30 IBPs overall).

[K. A. Pital]

Makes no difference; they (maintenance costs) are small anyway. I don't understand why there's such a fuss.

[Steve]

A note: if someone is at war and has initiated total mobilization, any industrial expansion spending will be capped at 20 IBPs for 5 IBPs/year growth. This is to prevent people from using the rather large extra quantity they get from being at war to shovel a massive chunk into IBP growth.

[loomer]

What's the policy on attaching mountain guns/light artillery and light mortars to an infantry division? Acceptable, so long as the numbers and size of the pieces remain within reason, I assume?

[Steve]

They're presumed to be part of the unit already.

[Steve]

Okay, advancement with IBPs.

To expand IBPs, you invest for a year and get a 25% return. Invest 20 IBPs and get 5 a year later.

As for tech advancement, it's been noted I should quantify this and I agree. Upgrade to Army or Air Tech will require a minimum of 2 years, during which increasingly improved designs that "catch up" to modern air power will be permitted, if one spends 20 IBPs for the advancement. The total will be determined by month; to get advancement in two years you must have 20 IBPs allocated every month, for a total of 480 points. For instance, I have spend 100 IBPs (20 from January to April, then in May reduced to 10 for May and June). Maintain this rate and every quarter I will permit you to have a new prototype ready at ever increasing rates; by 1927, if you spent from Q1 of 1927, you'll be caught up, with 1926 aircraft first permitted in the last quarter of 1927 for prototype testing. In my case, even if I go back to 20 IBP in August I'll still need an extra quarter or so to catch up.

In both cases, 20 IBP is the cap for spending. I won't permit expansion or advancement faster than what's specified.

Infrastructure will take... longer. At least 3 years I think, assuming 20-25 IBP expenditure. I honestly want to take this on a case by case basis since local conditions would determine a lot.

[Norade]

Should my autogyro/helicoptor, jet engine, and rocket tech spending be redone then? Seeing as two of them over lap somewhat. Also what benefits and prototypes might I get from these after a quarter?

As well my autogyro budget is 27 points a quarter with 20 being mine and 7 being from Spain.

[Steve]

It will be years before I let you even consider having jets or rockets, so don't bother spending IBPs for them yet.

[Minister of Pigeonry]

I imagine we shouldn't be seeing practical jets until the late 30's at the very earliest.

[Steve]

Norade here wants to develop the Whittle engine, which was drawn up in 1930, 1931, and which the RAF rejected.

[Norade]

Why can't I use solid fuel rocket designs again? They were used in the IRL American civil war and if my nation was invested in them (to the tune of 5 points a month into them) I can't see why I wouldn't get new designs.

As for jet engines, they did exist in the 1920's even if they were massively inefficient beasts and as a by product of my research I should be developing turboprops sometime soon. Not to mention that historically research wasn't being heavily conducted in this time and Whittle's design could have been developed far earlier as it was a simple idea (a centrifugal compressor) and not a technical advancement (such as aerofoil compressor blades developed in 1926) that created the real shift in thinking. I will post what I want my team working on in more detail, but I dislike hearing that the best jet minds of the era with strong funding are accomplishing nothing in an era where historically research wasn't being funded.

Also, I'm not sure what I should be getting in terms of new helicopter and autgyro designs but I think I should be at least on pace with such design as it was in history with all other nations not researching it being further behind.

Lastly I thought IBP's were simply slots taken up? So your monthly calculations make no sense. A better way would be to say that 20 IBP must stay focused to a task for an entire year for maximum results.

[Steve]

Works, but I thought the "cost" element would help people quantify it, and to calculate what would delay them if they ever had to lower those allocations for other projects.

[Minister of Pigeonry]

Norade here wants to develop the Whittle engine, which was drawn up in 1930, 1931, and which the RAF rejected.

Ahh, I see.

Perhaps it would just be better to allow jet technology to become viable (breakthroughs being made) earlier for those who are both at the top of their game in the aviation field and who have, beside the 20 or so IBPs toward Aviation, an additional investment into Jet tech. Though it would take quite a while before real results began to show*, investors would be ahead of others who have only pursued base aviation tech research.

*Mod's Discretion.

[Norade]

I currently have my research as follows.

Domestic Projects: 20 points per quarter
-Health care research 5 IBP per quarter starting in Q2.
-Education funding, 5 IBP per quarter starting in Q2.
-Welfare, 10 IBP per quarter starting in Q2.

Military Research
-Research into rotary winged aircraft [No projected completion date at this time.] (27 IBP starting in Q2, 20 IBP a quarter starting in Q3) [7 IBP from Spain]
-Research in jet engine design [No projected completion date at this time.] (20 IBP starting in Q2)
-Research in rocketry [No projected completion date at this time.] (15 IBP starting in Q2)
-Aircraft research [20 IBP starting in Q3]
-Naval research [6 IBP, starting in Q3]
-Tank research [5 IBP, starting in Q3]
-Small Arms research [5 IBP, starting in Q3]

So I have fully 60 points a quarter (75 if you count rockets as more air tech) devoted to aircraft and aircraft technology so I would expect to have the best of the best designs far and away past those of other nations.

Seeing as most nations currently have no investment in any specific technologies or even in most general ones I would expect to be the world's leader in new technologies related to air design. Also, I would like to know if I can expect my funding in domestic projects to yield anything or if they should be used towards something that might actually have some in game effect.

[Steve]

I'll discuss it with my co-mods.

[Thanas]

So industry advancement is capped at 20 per year? Meaning, I can't invest more than 20 points a quarter? While nations with lesser industry scores can invest more?

Furthermore, what guarantee is there that this rule will not change in the future? For example, if I now commit the several hundreds of IBPs that just got freed up to long term projects, what guarantee do I get that this rule will not get changed again in the future?

Quite frankly, I think I am getting very tired with all those rule changes. This is the sixth time I have to redo my budget and I am getting very close to just going "frell it" and dropping out altogether. It isn't worth it if I have to recalculate my entire budget every damm week before I write a story post.

[Norseman]

All the rule changes is another reason why I don't bother showing my budget just yet Far less frustration and I can make it up when it seems relevant.

[Coyote]

"It was valid at the time it was posted."