Swiss vote bans minarets

[Spoonist]

Maybe we are misunderstanding each other regarding the word xenophobia... If you are meaning the explicit meaning as in accute hatred or fear of everything foreign then we are not even on the same page and you should disregard what's below. I'm talking about everyday xenophobia as in being distrusting of foreigners and foreign culture/religion, if you still think that was uncalled for then go ahead and read the rest of this post.

Possibly by you backing up a statement about xenophobia in Europe by taking a potshot at Christian-Democrats, who are hardly xenophobic.

It's cute how you then try to weasel out of that snafu by linking to movements not in the EPP, which is akin to proving the Dalai Lama is racist by linking to the Ku Klux Klan website.

Now, if somewhere buried in your furious backpedalling is the point you may have been clumsily trying to make - that there is xenophobia in the EU - I can only say "no shit Sherlock". If you still cling on to the idea that the presence of a majority Christian-Democrat block is some sort of proof of this xenophobia, or that Chrstian-Democrats are xenophobes, you are an idiot.

Nice one, you fall back on the same strawman tactic. You misrepresent what I said and then you go after it. Are you familiar with the use of "also" as an adverb? Do you understand the implication of using someone's quote and then in that quote's context make a reply? Do you understand that then taking the reply out of its context would be misleading and even dishonest?

But just for you and just because I'm tired and irritated, I will bite. Even though that was not my intention we can discuss xenophobia and the christian democrats in europe.

Now how do you want it to be?

"More likely to have xenophobic tendencies"

Christian-Democrats, who are hardly xenophobic

If you consider the first to be possibly true then it follows that the second is possibly a lie. Otherwise you need to expand on what you where trying to say.

Do you argue that the parties in the European People's Party have not put forward xenophobic ideas/votes/agendas in their respective countries?
I'm not familiar with all of them, but I can tell you that most of them have put forward legislative proposals of increasing the teaching of either christianity or christian morals in schools, or do you not think that to be xenophobic? Or that most of them have voted for less immigration and stricter border security? Or is that not xenophobic either? Have not most of them had official politicians who have claimed islam to be a threat to national values? Or is that not xenophobic either? I mean not by a long shot can one claim that "Christian-Democrats are hardly xenophobic".
Which one do you want me to dig up sources on? (Off to bed now but I'll reply tomorrow).

[Liberty]

This whole thing with muslims is a problem going on all over Europe. Sure, in this case, the muslims are fairly moderate, but not all are. See the issue over the Mohammed cartoons for example.

So I'm curious. Some of you are from various European countries. What's your take? What solution do you advocate?

Are you asking for a solution to the Jewish Muslim problem

The solution is to make uneducated shitheads realise that Islam is not some kind of huge hive mind, and that what people do in holes like Saudi-Arabia shouldn't reflect on Muslims here, any more than Christian terrorists bombing abortion clinics, or the Pope not liking condoms, reflects on other Christians. The solution is to point out the huge fucking absurdity in the idea that an ethnically diverse small minority can somehow take over our judicial system, remove "our" culture, and steal "our" women. In short, the solution is to make ignorant people see their own ignorance and enlighten them.

But good luck with that.

Thank you for this. The American media makes it seem like Europe is simply being overrun by unassimilating muslims who hold radical beliefs and refuse to accept the values of a given European country. I've heard an especial amount about this with regards to England. However, I only know what I've read on the MSM.

So, is it all wrong? Is there no "radical Islam" problem in Europe?

[stormthebeaches]

Thank you for this. The American media makes it seem like Europe is simply being overrun by unassimilating muslims who hold radical beliefs and refuse to accept the values of a given European country. I've heard an especial amount about this with regards to England. However, I only know what I've read on the MSM.

So, is it all wrong? Is there no "radical Islam" problem in Europe?

As someone living in Britain let me tell you that the "unassimilating muslims" issue does exist. Here in Britain things seem to be okay but in France in particular has a problem. A large number of French immigrants are unassimilated and live in relative poverty compared to the rest of France. Just a few years ago there were mass riots by immigrants. Europe as a whole is not every good at assimilating immigrants (not just Muslims).

[[R_H]]

Thank you for this. The American media makes it seem like Europe is simply being overrun by unassimilating muslims who hold radical beliefs and refuse to accept the values of a given European country. I've heard an especial amount about this with regards to England. However, I only know what I've read on the MSM.

So, is it all wrong? Is there no "radical Islam" problem in Europe?

Depends on the country. Here in Switzerland, most of the Muslims (4% of the population) are from the Balkans, second largest group is from Turkey. Very few are from the Arabian Peninsula, the Levant or North Africa.

With non-citizens making up somewhere between 20 and 25% of the population, immigration and integration (assimilation isn't really mainstream) is a constant theme in politics and the media.

[Dooey Jo]

Thank you for this. The American media makes it seem like Europe is simply being overrun by unassimilating muslims who hold radical beliefs and refuse to accept the values of a given European country. I've heard an especial amount about this with regards to England. However, I only know what I've read on the MSM.

So, is it all wrong? Is there no "radical Islam" problem in Europe?

No, while there are radical Muslims in Europe, they are not the real problem. The problem is the terrible integration, which largely results from discrimination. At least in Sweden, it's very hard to get even a simple job if you have a foreign-sounding name, or don't speak perfect Swedish, so immigrants have pretty much no choice but to be poor and sit around very isolated, maybe with their closest family, or possibly start a restaurant. Ironically, employing them as fast as possible would help immensely with both their language (languages are best learned by actually using them in real situations, like at a work place), and integration (they'll probably get working buddies pretty quickly), but you never see politicians wanting to change employers' attitudes. Instead, it's all about "integration programs", like language courses and stuff, which might be useful, but don't address the real issue.

Sure, there are radical Muslims that "want" to do this or that, but I'm pretty sure they are by far outnumbered by right-wing extremists, and unlike Muslims, I've never seen a non-radical Nazi...

[Spoonist]

-To Bounty,
Reading my replies from yesterday I have to apologize. I was up late and the baby was not in the best of moods. So my tone and style was unecessary aggressive. So sorry about that.

Now I still don't get how you got from my statement to yours, and I still think the arguments hold true so if you want to continue albeit with a bit more rational and a bit less aggressive from my side then feel free to do so.

[hongi]

My German housemate tried to argue that Chinatowns (which in Australia, at least, are basically cafe strips, except for Chinese food and not coffee) and bilingual second generation immigrants were signs that immigrants were choosing not to integrate properly.

How many people would want to be integrated if that meant they only had to speak one language? How are the second generation 'immigrants' supposed to speak to their family?

[Stark]

Someone I know from work is such a lameass he didn't teach his kid English because the in-laws (Thai, I believe) were in the country for a year or two and he's spineless, so no English was used in the house at all for the formative period. So turns out the kid is 4 and can't speak a word of English and the government has to provide the kid with an interpreter for fucking kindergarten. Nanny state, lol?

One-language signs are not a problem for second-gen immigrants; while I don't see the big deal with multi-language signs, it's so easy to learn multiple languages as a child that if you grow up in a country unable to speak it's language that's lame, not cultural warfare. Hell, many second-gen immigrants here can speak English fine (often better than me, lol) and their parent's language enough to talk, but not enough to discuss at a high level or on complex issues because they've never had to.

[hongi]

Someone I know from work is such a lameass he didn't teach his kid English because the in-laws (Thai, I believe) were in the country for a year or two and he's spineless, so no English was used in the house at all for the formative period. So turns out the kid is 4 and can't speak a word of English and the government has to provide the kid with an interpreter for fucking kindergarten. Nanny state, lol?

One-language signs are not a problem for second-gen immigrants; while I don't see the big deal with multi-language signs, it's so easy to learn multiple languages as a child that if you grow up in a country unable to speak it's language that's lame, not cultural warfare. Hell, many second-gen immigrants here can speak English fine (often better than me, lol) and their parent's language enough to talk, but not enough to discuss at a high level or on complex issues because they've never had to.

Of course you need to speak English (or French, German etc) if you're living in a country where the majority of the people speak that language. It does piss me off to see people living here (i.e. not foreign students) who can't speak English.

But saying that bilingualism indicates a refusal to integrate is silly nonsense. There's nothing wrong with speaking two languages, and someone can be perfectly integrated into a society without aping everyone else and speaking only one language. Just because everyone here speaks only English doesn't mean that a person who speaks English and Thai is flipping the bird to Australia. There's a practical problem with enforcing monolingualism - most families don't move overseas en mass, so when the person goes to see his extended family, he's screwed since he can't speak their language.

[mr friendly guy]

My German housemate tried to argue that Chinatowns (which in Australia, at least, are basically cafe strips, except for Chinese food and not coffee) and bilingual second generation immigrants were signs that immigrants were choosing not to integrate properly. I don't think he was joking, but throughout the entire conversation, he seemed unable to get his head around the idea that integration was a two-way street.

Does he think Handorf is an example of Germans not assimilating. Since they still have traditional German style buildings and quite open about advertising their German heritage. I assume since you are from SA you would have been to Handorf.

I think it's rather easy to claim not to be racist when you don't have to worry about pesky things like your culture being influenced by migrants or deal with people from vastly different cultures. Actually being exposed to such things makes you more aware of the subtle things that can actually be really offensive.

Considering Pauline Hanson followed a racist comment with " I am not racist", I am pretty sure even a parrot could claim not to be racist. I do take your point that it is easier to claim not being racist when there are not a lot of "other" people around.

[Lusankya]

How many people would want to be integrated if that meant they only had to speak one language? How are the second generation 'immigrants' supposed to speak to their family?

Actually, he didn't actually think that integration was necessary. As far as he's concerned, the immigrants can do their thing and the locals can do their thing, and neither side has to make any effort to intermingle or anything, and society will work just fine and dandy like that. Don't ask me why he thought that. I couldn't understand myself.

Considering Pauline Hanson followed a racist comment with " I am not racist", I am pretty sure even a parrot could claim not to be racist. I do take your point that it is easier to claim not being racist when there are not a lot of "other" people around.

Well, my dumbass of a sister who thinks it's perfectly fine to say things like "You don't need to be all Asian now, Ali - you're in Australia now" (as though I don't already know that I'm under no obligation to act the way I do) or "come along, little Chinks, cross the road safely now" might be less likely to say that kind of thing if she had any Asian friends who could say, "Dude, you're being an ass." Apparently her sisters don't have enough authority on the matter for her to listen when we call her out for being a racist douche, because we can't speak for real Asians or something. Some people, I think, need to have stuff like that pointed out to them, because even though they might treat an individual well, the whole attitude is disgraceful, and sometimes people won't even notice they hold it unless attention gets drawn to it repeatedly.

[bobalot]

Well, my dumbass of a sister who thinks it's perfectly fine to say things like "You don't need to be all Asian now, Ali - you're in Australia now" (as though I don't already know that I'm under no obligation to act the way I do) or "come along, little Chinks, cross the road safely now" might be less likely to say that kind of thing if she had any Asian friends who could say, "Dude, you're being an ass." Apparently her sisters don't have enough authority on the matter for her to listen when we call her out for being a racist douche, because we can't speak for real Asians or something. Some people, I think, need to have stuff like that pointed out to them, because even though they might treat an individual well, the whole attitude is disgraceful, and sometimes people won't even notice they hold it unless attention gets drawn to it repeatedly.

I once had a guy at work tell me never to trust a group of people who could be blinded by a piece of dental floss. This got a huge laugh from everybody in the workshop, the only people who certainly weren't laughing were the other minorities.

When you tell people like this they are being epic douchebags, they start that bullshit about "political correctness". These same people will tell you with a straight face that the group of people facing the greatest discrimination today are middle aged white guys.

As for the main topic of this thread, I'm wondering what they hoped to achieve in the long term with this type of bullshit? Ethnic tension and riots? I seriously don't see an upside.

[Lusankya]

Don't forget, "Oh, but everybody knows I didn't mean any offence by it," or my favourite, "Oh, but I don't say things like that to their face."

[mr friendly guy]

Well, my dumbass of a sister who thinks it's perfectly fine to say things like "You don't need to be all Asian now, Ali - you're in Australia now" (as though I don't already know that I'm under no obligation to act the way I do) or "come along, little Chinks, cross the road safely now" might be less likely to say that kind of thing if she had any Asian friends who could say, "Dude, you're being an ass." Apparently her sisters don't have enough authority on the matter for her to listen when we call her out for being a racist douche, because we can't speak for real Asians or something. Some people, I think, need to have stuff like that pointed out to them, because even though they might treat an individual well, the whole attitude is disgraceful, and sometimes people won't even notice they hold it unless attention gets drawn to it repeatedly.

This is not your left leaning anti nuclear power sister is it?

I once had a guy at work tell me never to trust a group of people who could be blinded by a piece of dental floss. This got a huge laugh from everybody in the workshop, the only people who certainly weren't laughing were the other minorities.

Uh, forgive my ignorance, but I don't get the joke.

I have argued with some people on youtube and you see in the letters to the editor that these people also take the attitude that it happens in "their" country, so we can do it in ours. Ignoring for a moment a) that claim is unsupported b) even if true, what the hell does that have to do with the people over here, especially given that they like using examples of countries where the people don't have a free vote.

[wolveraptor]

I once had a guy at work tell me never to trust a group of people who could be blinded by a piece of dental floss. This got a huge laugh from everybody in the workshop, the only people who certainly weren't laughing were the other minorities.

Uh, forgive my ignorance, but I don't get the joke.

Think of the traditional depiction of Asian peoples' eyes in cartoons. Like slits. You could blindfold them w/ dental floss.

And honestly, I loll'd. It's kinda funny, and I don't think that alone could be enough to label someone a racist. I mean, the "I could never trust" part is a little iffy, but the second half is so over-the-top absurd that I found if funny.

[Lusankya]

Well, my dumbass of a sister who thinks it's perfectly fine to say things like "You don't need to be all Asian now, Ali - you're in Australia now" (as though I don't already know that I'm under no obligation to act the way I do) or "come along, little Chinks, cross the road safely now" might be less likely to say that kind of thing if she had any Asian friends who could say, "Dude, you're being an ass." Apparently her sisters don't have enough authority on the matter for her to listen when we call her out for being a racist douche, because we can't speak for real Asians or something. Some people, I think, need to have stuff like that pointed out to them, because even though they might treat an individual well, the whole attitude is disgraceful, and sometimes people won't even notice they hold it unless attention gets drawn to it repeatedly.

This is not your left leaning anti nuclear power sister is it?

No. This is my friends-with-the-Lord-Mayor's daughter, texts while driving, speeds constantly and bullies her boyfriend and my mother to take the demerits for her (thus causing her boyfriend to lose his licence after getting a demerit for not wearing a seatbelt - this did not stop her from speeding), leaves parking tickets on the windscreen for so long that they get $200 late fees attached to them, drives to Adelaide Oval when the bus stops right outside, takes 40 minute showers every day, gets to play hockey for Australia sister.

I talk to left leaning anti-nuclear power sister quite regularly, but last time I spoke to this sister was a couple of months ago to wish her well just before she went to England for a year (she's back in Australia already, after experiencing too much culture shock*). I suppose I will talk to her if she's near any of my other family members when I call them to wish them Merry Christmas, and maybe on her birthday.

I dunno. I guess my grandpa says racist stuff more regularly than she does, but he's 92, and unlike my sister, he actually stops and listens when people say to him, "Grandpa, that's really not on." I guess I hold my sister to a higher standard because she grew up in an environment where she should damn well know what's what.

[Garibaldi]

she's back in Australia already, after experiencing too much culture shock*

At the risk of rapidly dragging this thread off topic I'd be amused to hear what this could possibly be. I was in England for a few months and the only culture shock I experienced was that you can't buy real lemonade. Granted, I'm not Australian, but everything I've seen on TV leads to me to believe its just a goofier version of southern California.

[Lusankya]

Beats me. I don't talk to her. I only get second hand information from the rest of my family. To be honest, that was probably a bit of hyperbole: I'm fairly certain that the weather, the homesickness, and the fact that things weren't 100% perfect from the get-go also played crucial factors.

Oh, and in Australia at least, if you want to buy real lemonade, you have to buy "Traditional Lemonade". It's quite possibly the same in England. (I assume that's what you're talking about - it's the one that tastes like lemonade, rather than Sprite.)*

*I think if you want to respond to this last bit at all, it would probably be best to reply in this thread, which is far more closely related to the topic of lemonade.