SDN World 3 Rules Discussion Thread

[Steve]

Listen, everyone can spend up to 80 IBPs to gain 20 IBPs per annum. I'm just being a forgetful moron, arguing with Hotfoot on LibArc over navies has left my brain all frazzled.

[Thanas]

Okay. So according to the rules, that would be 20 points per quarter for a total (and maximum gain of 20 points per year), if I understand it correctly.

[Steve]

Well, I'd intended it to be 80 IBP per quarter and then after a year you get the 25% return. But your way could work and may be more generous. However, if so I'll require those doing it to commit to that specific level of spending the entire year I think.

[Norseman]

Well, I'd intended it to be 80 IBP per quarter and then after a year you get the 25% return. But your way could work and may be more generous. However, if so I'll require those doing it to commit to that specific level of spending the entire year I think.

No! 80 IBP per quarter through the year sounds good, moreover it's more in line with how fast real economies advanced. Also that means that a country whihc is forced to stop expanding their industries won't be left completely behind after a couple of years. So please, go with the expensive option, that way expanding your capacity actually becomes a sacrifice and you have to balance expansion against future gain.

[Steve]

Point, point. 80 IBPs for the entire year, constant expenditure, to get 20 at year's end.

[Thanas]

I would caution against the expensive option. It requires one to spend 420 points total for a gain of twenty points. This means the expenditure would only be recouped after 21 quarters or after five years.

What point is there for me to invest then? I can easily spend that on the military and go PvP for more gain. In short, peaceful expansion just became costly to no point. So no, 80 point spread over four quarters is way better and does not force anyone to committ to PVP that early.

[Norseman]

80 x 4 = 320
20 x 4 = 80

320/80 = 4

So you'd recoup your investment after four years.

However I would recommend the expensive option since the cheap option would mean that *everyone* would do it. The expensive option means that not investing into industry becomes a viable short term option, so people can have the glorious wars they want In short the expensive option means that the industrial game-map will be fairly constant over a decade, which makes more sense IMHO.

[Thanas]

So, Germany will have to wage war then.

[Norseman]

So, Germany will have to wage war then.

Well *I* am planning on making big investments in new industry actually.

[Thanas]

...within the 80 point limit, of course.

[Minister of Pigeonry]

I don't wish to complicate things any further, though, I was thinking about the 20 IBP requirement towards Air Tech (and potentially Army Tech as well) today and had a bit of an idea. Those 20 points are dedicated to research, no? It generates information, new designs, etc., with that in mind, is it reasonable for two+ nations to contribute IBPs, designers and such, toward Air Tech improvement for a shared total of 20 IBPs, say 10/10 from each, and reap the collective benefits that a lone nation investing 20 of its own points might achieve? Basically, working together generates the same benefit for the same "price" but spread between two.

[CmdrWilkens]

So on a note that has been getting kicked around on the commentary thread but may belong here I do have an idea:

Once upon a time (back when it was ASVS and we all had planet detroying superweapons in backpacks) we all just wrote about the devestating effectiveness of our attacks...at which point our opponents wrote abotu their devestating counter-attack and things proceeded apace until a third party tried to land grab at which point apocalypse ensued and we all left happy having destroyed million ship fleets in the blink of an eye...

I don't think that idea really is going to work anymore, the reason those games had such wild swings that made attack and counter-attack equally devestating was that they took place in such a tech advanced era that you COULD basically will your forces in to place as needed. This game (and the ones that have preceded it) are different. The suspesion of disbelief is harder because we connect more with the actions taken because we live in a world where we KNOW the limitations of the technology to ovecome.

So having said that I think we need to rethink HOW we post combat.

So I have a proposal with an increasing order of Mod work required:

Before any major campaign or offensive the attacking party should submit to one of the Mods a Battle Plan (it can be as simple as "attack with 30 divisions here" or as complex as a Five paragraph order )
The battle plan, however, should include at a minimum the forces committed, the reserve forces available, and the initial, secondary, and principal objectives.

After the attack is announced (or is otherwise pending) the defender should submit a battle plan as above (though objectives might be better called "counter-attack plan")

The Mods would then (dice-roll/rock-paper-scissors/consult the oracles) in order to determine success at which point they woudl inform the players of the top-level overview of how the campaign shakes out

The players then post whatever they want as illustrative text which still has the effect of showing out the mod decision.

Rinse and repeat every couple weeks of the war.


My idea is that, in a more simplified idea, combatants shoudl send their plans to the mods who decide who wins and by how much then inform the players who can post the story and then submit their new plans based on the revised status of forces.


Example with no real world relevance: Mexico and the US get in a shooting war:
Mexico is the aggressor and send the mods plans to rush troops up to the Rio Grande, strip the Caribbean for troops to assault Cuba and deploy the fleet to attempt a blockade of New Orleans
The US sends plans for a counter attack where forces from Florida and Cuba are stripped to mount an amphibious attak on Veracruz a la 1846 along with most of the Fleet elements, defensive only alignment on the Rio

The mods then can pretty easily set up a series of rolls for all of the major points of conflict. Since nobody is contesting the Rio border everyone just entrenches and counter-entrenches, in the Gulf and Caribbean at some point the US and Mexican fleets clash, if the US wins they attack Veracruz, if Mexico wins they attack Cuba.

Results are forward to the players who then write the fluff needed and send their plans for phase 2 of the war to the mods, rinse and repeat.


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Please note this is a PROPOSAL and I'm sure that there is plenty of room for improvement so please let me know if its worth developing further or if its something folks would rather not do.

[Steve]

It's a good one, and given the clusterfuck we're seeing over Manchuria it may be how we need to go. I'd hoped to give players more freedom, but alas that may not be possible.

[Raj Ahten]

I like Wilken's plan and I am willing to support it or a variation thereof. It still allows for lots of role playing and dramatic scenes, which is a plus. Only problem I see is that someone may not like a mod decision and have an unholy argument over it. But this being SD.net, no one is really afraid of a little debate .

[CmdrWilkens]

I like Wilken's plan and I am willing to support it or a variation thereof. It still allows for lots of role playing and dramatic scenes, which is a plus. Only problem I see is that someone may not like a mod decision and have an unholy argument over it. But this being SD.net, no one is really afraid of a little debate .

If they don't like a mod decision then they shouldn't be playing the game

Anyway what I'm concerned about is figuring out how well definied the requirement should be and what kind of timeframes we would attach to this. My thought remains to treat eveyrthing mostly as a sort of simultaneous turn-based game only instead of a computer sifting through the conflicting objectives we have the three mods. The question is how long the "turns" should be and how much info shoudl be required for the mods to be able to make an informed decision.

[Thanas]

I have posted a pretty detailed map to the mods, including location of opposition forces, all existing OTL railroads and roads and where I will attack.