Question about the Force

[OmegaRed]

This is something that has been bothering me for the longest. What determines what side of the Force you're on?

How does one decide which side of the force they want to practice. For example, you're a Jedi, who uses the Lightside of the Force. One day, you're tired of being a goody two shoes, and you want to follow the Dark Side of the Force. So, do you make that decision up in your mind and the force within you switches to Dark Side mode; therefore, making dark side powers and attritubes available for your use?

Or, do you simply have to become angry or channel some anger in some way to switch sides?

[Stark]

Did you even watch the movies?

[Aaron]

This is something that has been bothering me for the longest. What determines what side of the Force you're on?

How does one decide which side of the force they want to practice. For example, you're a Jedi, who uses the Lightside of the Force. One day, you're tired of being a goody two shoes, and you want to follow the Dark Side of the Force. So, do you make that decision up in your mind and the force within you switches to Dark Side mode; therefore, making dark side powers and attritubes available for your use?

Or, do you simply have to become angry or channel some anger in some way to switch sides?

It's obviously gradual, a series of baby steps until you wind up on the Dark Side (assuming you started at Light). Vader didn't start as a mass-murdering psychopath after all, he went from slaughtering a tribe of sand-people in a fit of anger to chopping off Dooku's hands to choking his wife to death (probably a bunch more in there if I read the EU).

So it's obviously not a "hmm...think I'll free the slaves on Tatooine" or "think I'll kill the population of a small system today" type of deal.

[Stark]

The idea of needing to get force-clearance to use evil 'attributes and powers' is nuts. The only definately 'evil' power is force lightning, something that's pretty inefficient anyway.

[SCRawl]

The idea of needing to get force-clearance to use evil 'attributes and powers' is nuts.

Yeah, pretty nuts. Obviously, if a Jedi uses the Force only for "knowledge and defence", he probably won't start learning the nastier Sith powers, as he'd have no use for them. He has to travel a ways down that road before he'd even consider this, and by then he will probably have been corrupted by the Dark side.

The only definitely 'evil' power is force lightning, something that's pretty inefficient anyway.

Its inefficiency isn't clear to me from looking at the movies. It's the first bullet in the guns of both Darth Sidious (except when first confronted by four armed Jedi masters) and Darth Tyrannus, after all, and this leads me to think that it's a pretty good option.

[Stark]

I mean the lack of it doesn't really hurt Jedi (even if you assume it is hard 'dark only' which I don't) and if they wanted Jedi could kill people with the force in other ways. It's just a showy power that's good against the unprepared (ie, a terror weapon). If Sidious had been, say, shot in the face in ROTS he'd have been actually dead instead of a bit melted.

I don't see that not being dark really limits a force-users powers at all (outside philosophy) thus the idea of needing to do a ritual or get a licence to use certain powers when you 'change alignment' is daft. I hear in the EU there are some specific powers that require special training or certain power levels, but again this isn't a 'switch my force to dark please' thing.

[Bakustra]

I mean the lack of it doesn't really hurt Jedi (even if you assume it is hard 'dark only' which I don't) and if they wanted Jedi could kill people with the force in other ways. It's just a showy power that's good against the unprepared (ie, a terror weapon). If Sidious had been, say, shot in the face in ROTS he'd have been actually dead instead of a bit melted.

I don't see that not being dark really limits a force-users powers at all (outside philosophy) thus the idea of needing to do a ritual or get a licence to use certain powers when you 'change alignment' is daft. I hear in the EU there are some specific powers that require special training or certain power levels, but again this isn't a 'switch my force to dark please' thing.

Interestingly enough, there are certain powers (in the old WEG system, mind) that were inherently "dark" or "light", but those generally involved calling upon the light or dark side directly for power. Otherwise, something was only "dark" if it involved killing or torturing someone (this meant that the injure/kill ability was always considered evil). Lightning is classified as auto-evil as well, as are force storms. The ROTJ novel suggests that Luke considers Palpy's lightning to be an aberration, but- it's Luke. I think way too many people have been influenced by Jedi Knight and its approach to the Force. (Evil people can't heal themselves! Holding onto something with the Force is of the Dark Side!)

[Knife]

I agree with Stark here. The notion that any particular power as a totally separate skill set than another related power, let alone alignment points, is silly. Force choke is, or should be, very similar to plain old levitation, or push, or pull. Perhaps a finer control than just a big mental shove, but same 'power'. Deflecting blaster bolts with the Force and a lightsaber by seeing into the future by scant seconds is basically the same power as seeing longer into the future, albeit with less difficulty due to less things happening, less choices.

Intent seems to be the factor that makes light side or dark side. How and why you use the Force and against what seems to be a deciding factor. Luke escapes the Darkside by not killing his father in a rage. Anakin falls to the Darkside by killing Mace in desperation and greed, again he falls further by killing younglings to cover up his mistake and for pride, and later, kills his wife with the Force out of anguish, petty jealousy, and fear.

[Simon_Jester]

Some powers seem strongly correlated with which side of the Force you're using: witness the Sith techniques of life extension mastered by Darth Plagueis, which have no real counterpart on the Light side (so far as I know). But most do seem to exist across both sides, with minor differences in application and tactics.

The extremely dualistic approach taken by many Star Wars games, with both sides having very different power sets, is most likely just that: a game mechanic.

[Crazedwraith]

Interestingly enough, there are certain powers (in the old WEG system, mind) that were inherently "dark" or "light", but those generally involved calling upon the light or dark side directly for power. Otherwise, something was only "dark" if it involved killing or torturing someone (this meant that the injure/kill ability was always considered evil). Lightning is classified as auto-evil as well, as are force storms. The ROTJ novel suggests that Luke considers Palpy's lightning to be an aberration, but- it's Luke. I think way too many people have been influenced by Jedi Knight and its approach to the Force. (Evil people can't heal themselves! Holding onto something with the Force is of the Dark Side!)

You realise that's all purely for game balance reasons right? Generally not considered canon.

As to the OP using Dark Side or Light Side is pretty much a constant decision. Act from peace and so forth and your drawining the light; act from emotion and anger and so forth and you are drawing on the dark side. (From a certain point of view of course. The EU [esp. Stover] has presented other interpretations.)

[Darth Hoth]

Its inefficiency isn't clear to me from looking at the movies. It's the first bullet in the guns of both Darth Sidious (except when first confronted by four armed Jedi masters) and Darth Tyrannus, after all, and this leads me to think that it's a pretty good option.

Lightning is dumb and useless when you have the ability to dump energy right into someone's system via telekinesis. If you want to kill someone quickly, just burst the blood vessels in his brain, or if you do not have that delicate control, Force shove him with enough force to snap his neck. Of course, sensible uses of telekinesis like this are very rare in the EU, but not unheard of (Nightsisters, or basically primitives who believe the Force is Voodoo magic, did this to Luke in The Courtship of Princess Leia, and Zannah, a child without Jedi training to hold her back, killed a couple of powerful Jedi this way in Jedi vs Sith - I imagine they would have felt rather stupid in their final moments).

Lightning, like Vader's trademark strangulation, is a terror weapon to torture and intimidate the ignorant. When Force-users who are less scrupulous with the rules dish it out, they have more effective means of putting an end to the opposition.

[Darth Hoth]

On topic, the actual depiction of Force powers in the EU (which is higher canon than game mechanics) militates against "restricted powers lists". Freedon Nadd, an extreme Darksider, was capable of healing a dying man in Tales of the Jedi: Dark Lors of the Sith, thus disproving the notion that healing must be good, and Jedi have been depicted as using "offensive" powers as well (e.g. Force lightning, A.K.A. "Electric Judgment" in Jedi newspeak).

[Napoleon the Clown]

From the EU stuff I know about, it seems what's dark side and what isn't is a relatively complex thing. Mace Windu, for example, used some powers often considered to be of the dark side, yet he was most certainly on the light side of things, to the point where he was on the Counsel. His advantage was that he was in total control of the emotions used to tap into the powers typically associated with the dark side. He didn't fear a fall to the dark side, and he wasn't in a blind rage. This control is why he mastered Vapaad, rather than it mastering him.

That being said, if he had snuffed out as many lives at once as his power level could allow him, he'd probably have netted himself some pretty nasty dark side side-affects. Mostly, though, it seems to come down to the uncontrolled emotions and intent. Choking someone just long enough to get them to decide it's better to just stand aside, as Luke did to Jabba's guards, isn't inherently bad, especially since he was completely calm while doing so. Better than if he had mind-raped them or killed them outright.


As far as decisions to go dark or light, some people do make a conscious decision from the word "go." Most dark siders, it seems, are cases of them being too emotional and then slowly sliding to the point where they've been fucked up enough in the head that they find themselves doing deplorable acts and enjoying it. Most signs point to the dark side having this nasty side-effect of driving you insane in the legal sense. And having a habit of eroding your ability to keep your emotions in check.


On the subject of Force Lightning, it is, as Darth Hoth said, a terror tactic. It's like a flame thrower. Yeah, it will get the job done of killing someone, but it's main benefit is it instills blind terror. It's about scaring the piss out of someone and putting them through physical agony. Which is why it's pretty much guaranteed to help you right down the dark path. There's certainly ways to use it in a beneficial manner, but then it's likely not going to be considered Force Lightning. Luke's Green Judgment, or whatever the hell it's called, is basically a green version of Force Lightning that isn't something that pulls the user toward the dark side of things. Once again, emotion seems to be the real reason for this.



My favorite force move is "Force Neck Snap" where you use telekinesis to just break the bastard's neck like one would with their hands. Force Crush is, of course, a fairly vicious one. That'd be a good tactic for scaring the piss out of a group of people. Seeing your buddy lift into the air, gurgle, and the crunch of his bones getting pulverized would demoralize pretty much anyone.

[Crazedwraith]

It's worth noting that 'keep people from dying' is pretty much a super sized version of healing that explicitly a Sith power. Of course, the act of healing can be done from both points of view; a jedi will heal someone because its the right thing todo; wheras Sith will want to heal people (such as Padme) because they belong to the Sith in question and they're to allowed to die without his permission.

[Bakustra]

Interestingly enough, there are certain powers (in the old WEG system, mind) that were inherently "dark" or "light", but those generally involved calling upon the light or dark side directly for power. Otherwise, something was only "dark" if it involved killing or torturing someone (this meant that the injure/kill ability was always considered evil). Lightning is classified as auto-evil as well, as are force storms. The ROTJ novel suggests that Luke considers Palpy's lightning to be an aberration, but- it's Luke. I think way too many people have been influenced by Jedi Knight and its approach to the Force. (Evil people can't heal themselves! Holding onto something with the Force is of the Dark Side!)

You realise that's all purely for game balance reasons right? Generally not considered canon.

As to the OP using Dark Side or Light Side is pretty much a constant decision. Act from peace and so forth and your drawining the light; act from emotion and anger and so forth and you are drawing on the dark side. (From a certain point of view of course. The EU [esp. Stover] has presented other interpretations.)

I was actually mocking the mindset of people who take the mechanics literally, rather than suggesting that Jedi Knight's mechanics be taken literally. Just a pet peeve of mine. The WEG material is interesting only in that it lacks any restrictions on what powers you can learn, as long as you find someone who can teach it to you. Now, one of the few interesting things the EU did with the Force is suggest that there are groups that draw upon a different aspect than the light side/dark side, and have wildly different powers as a result. Thankfully they're restricted to one sourcebook and two novels, or else they'd no doubt be up there with "Grey Jedi" and other wankery.

[Mad]

I agree with Stark here. The notion that any particular power as a totally separate skill set than another related power, let alone alignment points, is silly. Force choke is, or should be, very similar to plain old levitation, or push, or pull. Perhaps a finer control than just a big mental shove, but same 'power'. Deflecting blaster bolts with the Force and a lightsaber by seeing into the future by scant seconds is basically the same power as seeing longer into the future, albeit with less difficulty due to less things happening, less choices.

Intent seems to be the factor that makes light side or dark side. How and why you use the Force and against what seems to be a deciding factor. Luke escapes the Darkside by not killing his father in a rage. Anakin falls to the Darkside by killing Mace in desperation and greed, again he falls further by killing younglings to cover up his mistake and for pride, and later, kills his wife with the Force out of anguish, petty jealousy, and fear.

One's mindset and way of thinking might affect what kinds of powers can be accessed. Luke couldn't lift his X-wing out of the swamp because he didn't think it was possible. He was powerful enough, but his doubt may have created a kind of mental block that prevented him from accomplishing it. Similarly, a Jedi may have a mental block in regards to using the Force to attack living creatures in certain ways because they are "wrong."

Likewise, a Sith's precognition may come from a desire to control the future instead of the Jedi's desire to simply see what will happen. Or may be in the moment, emotionally, and not able to see the consequences effectively. Each individual's perspective may alter the perception of what can be seen through the Force.

So there doesn't seem to be anything that would outright prevent a Jedi or Sith from accessing the "other side's powers," though there might be some inherent difficulties due to the individual's way of thinking (be it due to nature or nuture). Just as some Jedi or Sith have their own difficulties and talents with their "own side's powers."

[Stark]

If you accept that, than it's still not about 'sides' or being 'allowed' to use powers; it's about philosophy or training.

For instance, is specific training required to use lightning? Is it only taught to high-end sith doods? If so, of COURSE the Jedi don't use it; they have no idea how and they can TK their way through combat anyway.

[Havok]

This is something that has been bothering me for the longest. What determines how you use guns?

How does one decide how they will use guns? For example, you're a Cop, who uses guns to serve an protect. One day, you're tired of being a goody two shoes, and you want to use guns to commit crimes. So, do you make that decision up in your mind and the gun in your hand switches to crime mode; therefore, making evil guns available for your use?

Or, do you simply have to become angry or channel some anger in some way to switch sides?

You already answered your own question.

[Knife]

I agree with Stark here. The notion that any particular power as a totally separate skill set than another related power, let alone alignment points, is silly. Force choke is, or should be, very similar to plain old levitation, or push, or pull. Perhaps a finer control than just a big mental shove, but same 'power'. Deflecting blaster bolts with the Force and a lightsaber by seeing into the future by scant seconds is basically the same power as seeing longer into the future, albeit with less difficulty due to less things happening, less choices.

Intent seems to be the factor that makes light side or dark side. How and why you use the Force and against what seems to be a deciding factor. Luke escapes the Darkside by not killing his father in a rage. Anakin falls to the Darkside by killing Mace in desperation and greed, again he falls further by killing younglings to cover up his mistake and for pride, and later, kills his wife with the Force out of anguish, petty jealousy, and fear.

One's mindset and way of thinking might affect what kinds of powers can be accessed. Luke couldn't lift his X-wing out of the swamp because he didn't think it was possible. He was powerful enough, but his doubt may have created a kind of mental block that prevented him from accomplishing it. Similarly, a Jedi may have a mental block in regards to using the Force to attack living creatures in certain ways because they are "wrong."

Likewise, a Sith's precognition may come from a desire to control the future instead of the Jedi's desire to simply see what will happen. Or may be in the moment, emotionally, and not able to see the consequences effectively. Each individual's perspective may alter the perception of what can be seen through the Force.

So there doesn't seem to be anything that would outright prevent a Jedi or Sith from accessing the "other side's powers," though there might be some inherent difficulties due to the individual's way of thinking (be it due to nature or nuture). Just as some Jedi or Sith have their own difficulties and talents with their "own side's powers."

That sounds more like how to access the Force, and not about which side of it you are on.

Force- lifting something with the Force is lifting something with the Force. Don't believe you can lift it, you can't lift it.

Lightside/Darkside- being at peace to lift the ship/ using your rage at being stuck in a swamp to lift the ship.

[Havok]

Right. It comes down how you decide to use the tool.

[Sarevok]

TK is different. It is an universal power every Jedi and Sith has. It is their users choice to decide whether they will snap necks or merely push away enemies. TK is really just a tool as Havok describes it.

What matters is unique dark side abilities like lightning. Can you be a Jedi and still generate lightning ? I have not seen a satisfactory answer to that.

[Bakustra]

TK is different. It is an universal power every Jedi and Sith has. It is their users choice to decide whether they will snap necks or merely push away enemies. TK is really just a tool as Havok describes it.

What matters is unique dark side abilities like lightning. Can you be a Jedi and still generate lightning ? I have not seen a satisfactory answer to that.

Yes. Joruus C'Baoth was able to generate lightning in Heir to the Empire and The Last Command. Now, the question of whether you can generate lightning without drawing upon the Dark Side is also yes, because of the godawful "electric judgment" that the NJO borrowed from a videogame. Further, there is nothing preventing a Jedi from learning these abilities while remaining a part of the order, or even using them. Dark Jedi are still generally considered Jedi unless they have left the order.

[Thraxis]

It is worth noting that Joruus C'Baoth was pretty much darkside through and through (not to mention insane) by the time he used force lightning.

Further, to sarevok, yes, Jedi can use force lightning. Jedi Master Plo Koon, in fact, is reknowned for having created a "light side force lightning". Since the force is really just attitude dependant (as has been said innumerable times above), it's just a matter of throwing lightning for a good reason. EG, electricity is good against droids.

Further, it is worth noting that the emperor was specifically toying with Luke while using force lightning, not trying to kill him outright. Further, as mentioned above, the fact that both Tyrannus and Sidious would turn to it so quickly means that it is likely not as weak as it might seem. Finally, although game mechanics are not canon by a long shot, it is worth noting that force lightning is a lethal ability in almost every video game and RPG. With KotOR especially, the advanced forms of force lightning can take out entire squads of fairly powerful enemies with one blast. Full jedi or sith in 2 or 3. As such, this suggests that if used with lethal intent, it can actually be quite deadly (whereas torturing someone to death like Palpatine was doing to Luke would likely be a low powered version).

[Havok]

Force lightning is still just a tool. The reason you don't see Jedi using it is because it's only function is to basically torture and Jedi don't do that. If you needed as jumpstart on your hover car, I'm sure if there was a Jedi around that had bothered to learn how to use FL, he could get you going.

[Bakustra]

It is worth noting that Joruus C'Baoth was pretty much darkside through and through (not to mention insane) by the time he used force lightning.

Ahh, but the point is that, without any Sith training, he was able to generate lightning and make use of it, suggesting it may not be as secret as people presume.

Force lightning is still just a tool. The reason you don't see Jedi using it is because it's only function is to basically torture and Jedi don't do that. If you needed as jumpstart on your hover car, I'm sure if there was a Jedi around that had bothered to learn how to use FL, he could get you going.

Precisely my point. We see at least one Jedi who knew how to use the power, and apparently there are others within the Old Republic. It's fairly useless for most situations. It's like the "accelerate plant growth" power. Many Jedi may know it, they're just not in a position to use it ever when we see them.