SW vs 40K

[hongi]

"Tell these superiors of yours that if my demands are not met within ten minutes, I will personally disembowel Supreme Chancellor Palpatine, live on the HoloNet. Am I understood?" Revenge of the Sith Novelisation, page 97.

It's late in the Battle of Coruscant. Dooku is dead by the hands of Anakin. Palpatine, Anakin and Kenobi are brought up to the bridge. Canonically, a fight breaks out. Things turn out differently. Palpatine is clipped by a stray shot, and the Jedi are too busy to stop Grievous when he takes the opportunity to open a HoloNet feed and gut the Chancellor before hundreds of trillions of people. Greivous is understandably spooked by Dooku's death and feels that a dead Chancellor is better than an escaped one. Grievous escapes by blowing out the windows, the Jedi duo land the ship safely on Corsuscant etc etc.

The Separatist fleet escape. The Republic is in complete shock, and while Anakin wants to personally rend Grievous limb from limb, the Senate almost immediately accepts a cease-fire treaty offered by the CIS. Grievous isn't too happy about it either, but Dooku's death deprives the Separatists of their charismatic 'glue' that keeps thousands of systems in line. So he goes back to lick his wounds. Besides, for some strange reason, Sidious is silent. The Republic and CIS draft a border and a tenuous 'peace' reigns.

Okay, one year later. A wormhole appears deep in CIS space, leading to the WH40K universe. For shits and giggles, it's close to Tau space.

Grievous decides that he could use the resources of this new galaxy to create droid, heavy industry, warship etc factories that are untouchable to reprisal attacks from the Republic. The Republic will not attack the CIS because they're a bunch of chicken-shits. How does the CIS fare in the WH40K verse?

Second scenario, and in my opinion, a lot more interesting. A second wormhole opens at the same time in Republic territory, right in the Damocles Gulf and close to Tau space. The Republic think that it's a smashing idea to destroy the CIS there as well. How do they both fare in the WH40K verse?

The Warp exists in the Star Wars universe. But all SW biological sentients are Warp neutral and they can't tap or influence the Warp in any way, so it's very calm in the SW galaxy. The Force is something totally different from the Warp. In the 40K galaxy likewise, SW forces have little impact upon the Warp and vice versa, much like the Tau. However, entering regions of dense Chaos activity (like the Eye of Terror) will fuck the SW forces up like you'd expect, for balance reasons mostly.

40K ships and psykers that enter the SW galaxy will think they have died and gone to heaven. I'm not sure if the Astronomicon would even be necessary.

*I did this same crossover in SB, only for a retarded Warsie to screw it over. I have nothing against the Wars side, but he wasn't the brightest bulb in the room if you know what I mean. And there's many more people knowledgable about 40K here.

[Shroom Man 777]

I think that with the CIS' enormous numerical advantage, plus hyperdrives, that gave it the capacity to ruin Republic shit all throughout the SW Galaxy, they will have a distinct advantage over the 40k forces in terms of strategic movement since 40k FTL leaves a lot to be desired and limits all 40k factions. The CIS has no such limits, its ship sports Wars-grade firepower, and it's got the advantage of obscene mass production. For all the Roger-Rogers and droid slapstick, they're gonna be like the Orks, the Nids and the Necrons combined and loaded with steroids. Goddamn.

When I read the first part of the OP, though, I thought it was going to be a reverse of the Empire sieging Holy Terra thread, with the Imperium or other 40k factions entering the Battle of Coruscant instead. That would've been interesting to see.

[Darth Hoth]

The portion on Warp interactions needs to be clarified: Are Force powers and Warp magic-sorcery mutually exclusive, as in incapable of touching each other? If so, neither side has any defence against the magic of the other and any combat between them devolves to who lands the killing shot/TK brainburst/mindrape first.

[hongi]

The portion on Warp interactions needs to be clarified: Are Force powers and Warp magic-sorcery mutually exclusive, as in incapable of touching each other? If so, neither side has any defence against the magic of the other and any combat between them devolves to who lands the killing shot/TK brainburst/mindrape first.

*scratches head*

Hm. I didn't think about this. Say a Jedi tries to read the mind of a psyker, the psyker throws up a mental block and stops the Jedi...that sort of compromises the distinction I wanted to make between the Force and the Warp as two different things.

And yet if the two couldn't react, I'd have ridiculous things like a Jedi willy-nilly mind reading a psyker and vice versa. So I guess I'd have to say that the two can interreact. Any suggestions as to how?

[Darth Hoth]

As I read things, standard practice in Vs debating magic/psychic powers is to assume that these powers are compatible between universes - e.g., a Gray Lensman's telepathy should protect him from Jedi/Sith mindrape (or vice versa), Obi-Wan's telekinesis should work against a Scanner, &c. The actual sources of power or mechanisms of the magic might be separate, but should be capable of interaction. If so, their respective feats would be used to attempt to establish relative power, as per standard suspension of disbelief procedure (although obviously mental powers are usually harder to quantify).

Though you might want something different for your particular scenario.

[Serafina]

The portion on Warp interactions needs to be clarified: Are Force powers and Warp magic-sorcery mutually exclusive, as in incapable of touching each other? If so, neither side has any defence against the magic of the other and any combat between them devolves to who lands the killing shot/TK brainburst/mindrape first.

Keep in mind that 40K psychic powers can be orders of magnitudes more powerfull than SW-force users (even including Wankatine).

However, the Force is way safer to handle and easier to controll.
Since apparently, controll is essential in blocking warp-based powers, which should give SW an defensive advantage, propably enough to chancel the power-advantage of 40K.

[Darth Hoth]

Can be, but they rarely are. Storm of the Emperor's Wrath is all fine and good, but who apart from the Warp Gods/Eldritch Horrors puts out multi-teraton attacks over lightyears ranges like Palpatine's Force Storms? Even the Apex Twins are not (so far as I am aware) responsible for anything remotely that impressive, and they are supposedly above the Alpha Plus Uber Beings who cannot be controlled and used safely by the Imperium.

Although generally the average psyker is better than the average Jedi, there are very few people in 40k who can match the sheer brute force of the high-end Jedi/Sith feats by people like Palpatine, Luke, Naga Sadow, et al.

[Serafina]

Various Tzeentch Sorcerers (especially in Circles), Primarchs.

Yes, those are rare - but so are uber-Force users.

And in generall, Psykers show more impressive feats than Jedi/Sith - attacks capable of destroying heavy tanks with a single hit (Vortex of Doom & others), Teleportation and powerfull force barriers.
Heck, even normal imperial psykers can unleash attacks that can kill a dozen enemies.

Furthermore, we have multiple examples where psykers are used as anti-titan or even anti-ship weaponery - presumably with large enhancers, but still.

It is hard to establish good numbers for those, but they definately exist.

[Darth Hoth]

Quantification for uber psykers who are supposedly orders of magnitude more powerful than Palpatine, please? Demonstrated abilities? Range, destructive effects? And if we are bringing artificial power amplifiers into it, there are Sith crystals that let even mediocre Force-users (e.g., Aleema in The Sith War) induce hyperaccelerated supernovas.

[Serafina]

Quantification for uber psykers who are supposedly orders of magnitude more powerful than Palpatine, please? Demonstrated abilities? Range, destructive effects? And if we are bringing artificial power amplifiers into it, there are Sith crystals that let even mediocre Force-users (e.g., Aleema in The Sith War) induce hyperaccelerated supernovas.

As i said, it is hard to quantify them exactly, but some observed effects:

"Vortex of Doom" is capable of killing multiple enemies in an instant (by pulling them into the warp) and damaging/destroying vehicles by the same mechanism. Avaiable to numerous Space Marine Psykers and presumably also other strong psykers.

"Smite", "Storm of the Emperors Wrath", "Fury of the Ancients" and "Lightning Arc" regulary kill multiple enemies.
Comparable to a strong blast of force lightning, but actually one of the weaker powers avaiable to 40K-Psykers.

"Gaze of Mork" is an (orcish) psychic attack that can damage the various warmachines - including titans.
It is regulary used on orcish gargants.
Both Eldar and the Imperium have Psi-Titans which presumably have similar attacks.
Similar attacks are used on warships.

Those are apparently pretty common powers which already exceed most of the observed capabilities of most Jedi/Sith.

Now, some of the stronger capabilities. Most of these are actually a combination of the powers of multiple individuals.

In one of the Gaunt's Ghos Novels (sorry, can not recall the name right now), an Eldar rune prophet unleashes a warp storm that halts an complete imperial warfront and destroys at least a dozen vehicles, too.
The effects are similar to one of the strongest storms on earth, with added effects like summoning warp creatures etc.
However, this was an accident, altough it is implied that he could have controlled this in his younger ages.

In another Gaunts Ghost-Novel, a demon summons a continent-wide warpstorm in the upper atmosphere that is capable of crushing all landing crafts within it.
While it could be argued that this was from a demon and not a psyker, similar effects can be duplicated with psyonik rituals.


Generally, we can say that the average psyker has more powerfull abilities than the average Force-user.
They repedeately demonstrate powerfull offensive powers that range from single-person inceriation to vehicle-destroying powers.
The "upper class" of psykers (or psy effects in general) are both more numerous and powerfull than force-effects, being able to destroy warmachines and to damage warships. However, the Imperium itself rarely uses them offensively, focussing instead on defense.
The highest demonstrated effects in 40K exceed the feats of force-users - devastation of lightyear of space (Storm of the Emperors Wrath), destruction of solar systems (Magnus the Red), Teleportation of whole armies (Ahrimahn), coordination of dozens of armies (Eldad Ulthran) and farsight for hundreds or thousand of years (Eldar Farseers).

The force appears to be more an "inward" ability, while pys-powers are more "outward".
Force users are generally better at self-enhancement and seem to have an advantage in farsight at the "lower levels".
However, the psykers can match all of these feats at "higher levels" and generally display far more offensive, direct powers than forceusers. Leaving "uber-feats" aside, a typical 40K-psyker can match a forcelightning from Dooku or Palpatine, and stronger ones are capable of exceeeding this.
40K also has more numerous capabilities to enhance the effects of their psychic powers - not only do they have acces to more numerous "focus artefacts", but they are also capable of combining their efforts, something which is quite rare in SW.


However, most of this is irrelevant to the actual discussion, since the Tau do not HAVE any psy-powers.

On the technical side of the discussion:
Wars would have a field-day in space against the Tau. Their ships are more numerous, have equal or better armament, are more agile and have the advantage of FAR better FTL.
The Tau fleet would be reduced to an defensive position, where they presumably could damage some Wars-vessels but would be beaten nontheless.

Meanwhile, the Tau army has firepower at the same levels as 40K, so it actually comes down to tactics.
At the first glance, the Tau profit from a highly mobile strategy of concentrated firepower and specialists (battlesuits), something which both the droid and clone armies have demonstrably only limited amounts of.
However, they have great logistic and numeric advantages, since they are winning in space all the time.

[Grif]

Do you think the Imperium will ally with the Tau against the CIS? Not that it is likely but I do think the IoM is a practical sort when it comes to choosing the enemies.

They wouldn't be happy with all the amount of droids the CIS would probably proceed to pump out, spreading heretical notions of "Men of Iron" and the sort. In fact, come to think of it, wouldn't it be practically a heresy, forcing IoM to declare a crusade of some sort to exterminate the CIS?

[Ryan Thunder]

The Tau are a drop in the fucking bucket. There's no reason the Imperium would have anything to gain by allying with them.

[hongi]

As I read things, standard practice in Vs debating magic/psychic powers is to assume that these powers are compatible between universes - e.g., a Gray Lensman's telepathy should protect him from Jedi/Sith mindrape (or vice versa), Obi-Wan's telekinesis should work against a Scanner, &c. The actual sources of power or mechanisms of the magic might be separate, but should be capable of interaction. If so, their respective feats would be used to attempt to establish relative power, as per standard suspension of disbelief procedure (although obviously mental powers are usually harder to quantify).

Though you might want something different for your particular scenario.

No, that sounds good.

[Helo]

I think that force users might have a big shock when they step in W40K galaxy.I remember from one book when Carida system was destroyed all jedi felt the pain.It was really traumatic for them.I'd like to see what will happen to them in galaxy where milions are dieing every second.

[Aaron]

However, most of this is irrelevant to the actual discussion, since the Tau do not HAVE any psy-powers.

Technically that is correct. However they do have psykers from vassal races. I don't know much about them (Tau aren't my thing) but Conner likely does, the make an appearance in Kill Team.

Your still setting the Tau up for an utter ass-raping mind you.

[Serafina]

However, most of this is irrelevant to the actual discussion, since the Tau do not HAVE any psy-powers.

Technically that is correct. However they do have psykers from vassal races. I don't know much about them (Tau aren't my thing) but Conner likely does, the make an appearance in Kill Team.

Your still setting the Tau up for an utter ass-raping mind you.

I really doubt they matter, since they are not commonly employed - if tolerated at all, since the Tau do not trust warp powers.

On the other hand, the standard Tau technology should be able to match the tech of Star Wars in ground combat.
Assuming that their enemies engage in ground combat, Star Wars should get at least a bloody nose, with substantial more trouble on the inner worlds.

[hongi]

I think that force users might have a big shock when they step in W40K galaxy.I remember from one book when Carida system was destroyed all jedi felt the pain.It was really traumatic for them.I'd like to see what will happen to them in galaxy where milions are dieing every second.

Not much different from their own galaxy I'd suppose.

[Serafina]

I think that force users might have a big shock when they step in W40K galaxy.I remember from one book when Carida system was destroyed all jedi felt the pain.It was really traumatic for them.I'd like to see what will happen to them in galaxy where milions are dieing every second.

Not much different from their own galaxy I'd suppose.

Well, not quite.

Natural death has no effect on the Jedi (tough the can feel pain/death of relatives/loved ones).
But we know that they can feel great devastation (Obi Wan in ANH), and we know that war helps the Dark Side clouding stuff.
The SW-galaxy is not at a constant state of war - even the Clone Wars and later the Rebellion were relatively benign, compared to 40K.
Meanwhile, the Imperium is fighting hundreds of small wars, and planetary annihilation is not a rare event. Add the horrors inflicted by Chaos, Dark Eldar and even the Imperium, and you propably get a pretty violent mix.

[Darth Hoth]

"Gaze of Mork" is an (orcish) psychic attack that can damage the various warmachines - including titans.
It is regulary used on orcish gargants.
Both Eldar and the Imperium have Psi-Titans which presumably have similar attacks.
Similar attacks are used on warships.

Disrupting the internal workings of a war machine to damage it would be trivially simple to the telekinesis demonstrated by many Jedi (the games even have a power for this, "Disrupt Droid"). Is it specified how the damaging is done? And this still is not close to Palpatine in Dark Empire. Also, you mentioned something about artificial psi-boosters earlier?

Those are apparently pretty common powers which already exceed most of the observed capabilities of most Jedi/Sith.

Most Jedi, at least; I would not necessarily say most Sith. Although I never contested the point that the average psyker is better at telekinesis and so on than the average Jedi, I challenged your claim that there were common psykers who could outclass Palpatine and other high-end Jedi/Sith.

In one of the Gaunt's Ghos Novels (sorry, can not recall the name right now), an Eldar rune prophet unleashes a warp storm that halts an complete imperial warfront and destroys at least a dozen vehicles, too.
The effects are similar to one of the strongest storms on earth, with added effects like summoning warp creatures etc.
However, this was an accident, altough it is implied that he could have controlled this in his younger ages.

In another Gaunts Ghost-Novel, a demon summons a continent-wide warpstorm in the upper atmosphere that is capable of crushing all landing crafts within it.
While it could be argued that this was from a demon and not a psyker, similar effects can be duplicated with psyonik rituals.

Calculating the energy required to affect weather patterns is sadly beyond me. In lieu of hard numbers on either side I will note that Force-sensitive untrained primitives (Witches of Dathomir) have demonstrated the ability to create storms as well (ref: The Courtship of Princess Leia).

They repedeately demonstrate powerfull offensive powers that range from single-person inceriation to vehicle-destroying powers.

The telekinesis required to levitate such things as spacecraft (Yoda in the films and various EU examples, aforementioned primitives, for example, levitated the Millennium Falcon if I recall correctly) easily generates force in excess of what is needed to destroy a vehicle, nevermind kill someone. The same would be true of the power required for demonstrated feats of acceleration (tens to hundreds of gravities at conservative estimates) in Episodes I and II. Jedi usually do not do this for "good guy" reasons (although see destruction of 'droids in visual media), but it is easily done; Zannah, a child, kills with TK in the Jedi Vs Sith comic.

The "upper class" of psykers (or psy effects in general) are both more numerous and powerfull than force-effects, being able to destroy warmachines and to damage warships. However, the Imperium itself rarely uses them offensively, focussing instead on defense.

How common is warship destruction? This is the first time I hear about this, leading me to believe that it is not a commonly utilised tactic.

The highest demonstrated effects in 40K exceed the feats of force-users - devastation of lightyear of space (Storm of the Emperors Wrath), destruction of solar systems (Magnus the Red), Teleportation of whole armies (Ahrimahn), coordination of dozens of armies (Eldad Ulthran) and farsight for hundreds or thousand of years (Eldar Farseers).

Can you list the sources for this?

I already conceded on the Emperor of man. As for the rest:

Destruction of solar systems: Sith have done this in the past (by supernova: first Naga Sadow, Dark Lord of the Sith, and then Aleema, Goth cultist Sith wannabe brat, though the latter had to use a Sith crystal Force-amplifying weapon)

Teleportation: That one I cannot think of a direct counter-example to; Palpatine teleported Luke and Artoo, but not those masses. How large was the army and how long a distance was it teleported?

Co-ordination: Joruus C'baoth, a deranged clone, does this easily (co-ordinates multiple space battles and capable of direct mind-control of tens of thousands of military officers minimum), and Palpatine thought him a pitiful failure (Ref: Dark Empire Sourcebook).

Precognition: Sith have demonstrated this as well, e.g. Darth Traya, who predicted the death of Jango Fett thousands of years into the future (Ref: Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords).

However, the psykers can match all of these feats at "higher levels" and generally display far more offensive, direct powers than forceusers. Leaving "uber-feats" aside, a typical 40K-psyker can match a forcelightning from Dooku or Palpatine, and stronger ones are capable of exceeeding this.

Force Lightning is, however, a useless ability when compared to something as simple as telekinesis. It is a terror weapon used to torture and intimidate the ignorant and the weak, not a useful combat ability. Better by far to induce stroke or just snap the opponent's neck. (See the current discussion on Force powers in the Wars forum.)

40K also has more numerous capabilities to enhance the effects of their psychic powers - not only do they have acces to more numerous "focus artefacts", but they are also capable of combining their efforts, something which is quite rare in SW.

There are ample examples of both Jedi and Sith combining their abilities in the EU, as well as artificial amplifiers being used, and Palpatine specifically has demonstrated the use of both of these. 40k amplifier technology may be more common, but not unique.

No offence, but I see no evidence of abilities orders of magnitude superior to Palpatine's.

[Darth Hoth]

I think that force users might have a big shock when they step in W40K galaxy.I remember from one book when Carida system was destroyed all jedi felt the pain.It was really traumatic for them.I'd like to see what will happen to them in galaxy where milions are dieing every second.

Not much different from their own galaxy I'd suppose.

Well, not quite.

Natural death has no effect on the Jedi (tough the can feel pain/death of relatives/loved ones).
But we know that they can feel great devastation (Obi Wan in ANH), and we know that war helps the Dark Side clouding stuff.
The SW-galaxy is not at a constant state of war - even the Clone Wars and later the Rebellion were relatively benign, compared to 40K.
Meanwhile, the Imperium is fighting hundreds of small wars, and planetary annihilation is not a rare event. Add the horrors inflicted by Chaos, Dark Eldar and even the Imperium, and you propably get a pretty violent mix.

Then the odds are the galaxy will soon see multiple holes in the Force. If a single brutal battle can create one, more or less every world in GRIMDARK! 40k should qualify. Then we have fun with multiple new Darth Nihilus equivalents . . .

[Serafina]

Disrupting the internal workings of a war machine to damage it would be trivially simple to the telekinesis demonstrated by many Jedi (the games even have a power for this, "Disrupt Droid"). Is it specified how the damaging is done? And this still is not close to Palpatine in Dark Empire. Also, you mentioned something about artificial psi-boosters earlier?

Melting at least, possibly vaporisation. The damage is in the same order of magnitude as melters (kilotons at least, IIRC), altough with higher range.

Calculating the energy required to affect weather patterns is sadly beyond me. In lieu of hard numbers on either side I will note that Force-sensitive untrained primitives (Witches of Dathomir) have demonstrated the ability to create storms as well (ref: The Courtship of Princess Leia).

How violent were those? Are they created by a single or multiple persons?

The telekinesis required to levitate such things as spacecraft (Yoda in the films and various EU examples, aforementioned primitives, for example, levitated the Millennium Falcon if I recall correctly) easily generates force in excess of what is needed to destroy a vehicle, nevermind kill someone. The same would be true of the power required for demonstrated feats of acceleration (tens to hundreds of gravities at conservative estimates) in Episodes I and II. Jedi usually do not do this for "good guy" reasons (although see destruction of 'droids in visual media), but it is easily done; Zannah, a child, kills with TK in the Jedi Vs Sith comic.

And yet, we do not see Jedi blasting Droids with TK in the arena-battle of Geonosis.
Levitating the MF required a great deal of concentration - even Yoda had to concentrate enough to levitate the boulder in AotC. This does not translate into an offensive capability.

How common is warship destruction? This is the first time I hear about this, leading me to believe that it is not a commonly utilised tactic.

No, the psykers are quite literary used as guns - they generate psyblasts which are then thrown at the enemy ships.
This is, however, mostly done by the Chaos forces.

However, Alpha+ psykers are able to destroy (cutting/smashing) Titans.
Higher psyker levels exist.

Can you list the sources for this?

I will try to do so. Most of these are from various short stories in the White Dwarf.

Destruction of solar systems: Sith have done this in the past (by supernova: first Naga Sadow, Dark Lord of the Sith, and then Aleema, Goth cultist Sith wannabe brat, though the latter had to use a Sith crystal Force-amplifying weapon)

+
I am talking about inceriating a whole solar system, destroying at least one fleet of ships and destroying the surface of various planets directly. Done by Magnus the Red while escaping to the Eye of Terror, and presumably again later on (without witnesses tough).

Teleportation: That one I cannot think of a direct counter-example to; Palpatine teleported Luke and Artoo, but not those masses. How large was the army and how long a distance was it teleported?

Ahriman teleported his entire coven (~100, tough it is possible that they were at reduced strenght) and accompanying cultists (unknown number, but more - assuming 3-4 per sorcerer, 3-400) (about 500 people total) over an interstelar distance. It is possible that it was not "true" teleportation but rather really quick warp travel, tough.

Co-ordination: Joruus C'baoth, a deranged clone, does this easily (co-ordinates multiple space battles and capable of direct mind-control of tens of thousands of military officers minimum), and Palpatine thought him a pitiful failure (Ref: Dark Empire Sourcebook).

Eldrad Ulthran was able to precisely time the arrival of hundreds of strike teams.
However, i will conceed that this is matched by Wars.

But army-level mind controll is repedeately displayed by powerfull psykers in 40K, right down to the individual soldiers.

Precognition: Sith have demonstrated this as well, e.g. Darth Traya, who predicted the death of Jango Fett thousands of years into the future (Ref: Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords).

This is a single example, while Eldar reportedly do this all the time - with dozens of Farseerers per worldship, at least.
Eldrad Ulthran was able to predict the 14th Black Crusade at least 10.000 years ago.
He was also able to match the Deceiver at least once, who has farsight for millions of years.
They also demonstrate a far wider range (prediction of complex events rather than single events).

Force Lightning is, however, a useless ability when compared to something as simple as telekinesis. It is a terror weapon used to torture and intimidate the ignorant and the weak, not a useful combat ability. Better by far to induce stroke or just snap the opponent's neck. (See the current discussion on Force powers in the Wars forum.)

Granted, that may be. However, they still demonstrate a lack of direct offensive power.
Also, how do you explain the usage of force lightning against both Mace Windu and Yoda if it is a strict terror weapon?

There are ample examples of both Jedi and Sith combining their abilities in the EU, as well as artificial amplifiers being used, and Palpatine specifically has demonstrated the use of both of these. 40k amplifier technology may be more common, but not unique.

Conceeded.
However, how long does that take, and what kind of effects can be caused by that?

No offence, but I see no evidence of abilities orders of magnitude superior to Palpatine's.

Why should i take offense?

Either way, it is possible that Palpatines offensive powers match those of the most powerfull 40K-psykers, i am not all that familiar with him. However, beings of this power are more numerous in 40K - altough not fielded by the Imperium.

Then the odds are the galaxy will soon see multiple holes in the Force. If a single brutal battle can create one, more or less every world in GRIMDARK! 40k should qualify. Then we have fun with multiple new Darth Nihilus equivalents . . .

Quite possible. In fact, there already should be a lot of them.
Millions of deaths are no rarity in 40K - heck, we have possible billions of deaths as an off-hand note in Necropolis (the makropole that gets nuked).

[Darth Hoth]

Melting at least, possibly vaporisation. The damage is in the same order of magnitude as melters (kilotons at least, IIRC), altough with higher range.

Do you have a quote describing the damage?

How violent were those? Are they created by a single or multiple persons?

Unknown, it could be several of them. I do not remember the precise effects, it was a while since I read the book. Give me a couple of days and I can check it.

And yet, we do not see Jedi blasting Droids with TK in the arena-battle of Geonosis.
Levitating the MF required a great deal of concentration - even Yoda had to concentrate enough to levitate the boulder in AotC. This does not translate into an offensive capability.

Anakin did not need minute concentration to decelerate when dropping on Zam's speeder in Ep II, and Jinn and Kenobi accelerated at tens of gravities at least in combat in Ep I. You also ignore multiple depictions of Force Shove trashing 'droids and such examples as Zannah. The Jedi on Geonosis were pulled from the Temple - i.e. mostly sedentary Jedi, librarians, archivists and suchlike, who might not want to use harsh measures, or not be the best at combat in the first place (not all Jedi are equally endowed with telekinesis).

This discussion has been had many times before. Consult, for example, this thread.

No, the psykers are quite literary used as guns - they generate psyblasts which are then thrown at the enemy ships.
This is, however, mostly done by the Chaos forces.

However, Alpha+ psykers are able to destroy (cutting/smashing) Titans.
Higher psyker levels exist.

Alpha Plus is the highest named level as I recall, and those are dangerously unstable. And these "psyblasts", how do they work? Could you post an example of one in action?

I will try to do so. Most of these are from various short stories in the White Dwarf.

Very well.

I am talking about inceriating a whole solar system, destroying at least one fleet of ships and destroying the surface of various planets directly. Done by Magnus the Red while escaping to the Eye of Terror, and presumably again later on (without witnesses tough).

And a supernova does not do all this? The destruction is comparable, and inducing it in a normal main sequence star likely requires more energy (although since it is magic it can arguably be a "technobabblish" effect, but whatever).

Ahriman teleported his entire coven (~100, tough it is possible that they were at reduced strenght) and accompanying cultists (unknown number, but more - assuming 3-4 per sorcerer, 3-400) (about 500 people total) over an interstelar distance. It is possible that it was not "true" teleportation but rather really quick warp travel, tough.

A fairly small group to call an "army", I would say. Even so, if that is true then it exceeds Palpatine's demonstrated capabilities in that regard.

But army-level mind controll is repedeately displayed by powerfull psykers in 40K, right down to the individual soldiers.

And so in Wars as well. Palpatine thought that the guy who did the above was a weakling. A completely untrained Bothan did something similar with a bunch of primitive apes with a Sith amplifier in an X-wing comic.

This is a single example, while Eldar reportedly do this all the time - with dozens of Farseerers per worldship, at least.
Eldrad Ulthran was able to predict the 14th Black Crusade at least 10.000 years ago.
He was also able to match the Deceiver at least once, who has farsight for millions of years.
They also demonstrate a far wider range (prediction of complex events rather than single events).

Traya also predicted the fall of the Republic, certainly a longer process. Many other Sith have demonstrated impressive precognition as well (e.g., Kadann, Palpatine). I will concede, however, that Eldar appear (from what I know) to do so with greater frequency.

Also, how do you explain the usage of force lightning against both Mace Windu and Yoda if it is a strict terror weapon?

Because he was overconfident and liked to toy with them? He is prone to that, occasionally.

Conceeded.
However, how long does that take, and what kind of effects can be caused by that?

It depends on the magnifier. A circle of Jedi cadets using Sith architecture on Yavin TK-pushed multiple ISDs and accelerated them to relativistic velocities in Darksaber, but generally the effects are less grand.

Either way, it is possible that Palpatines offensive powers match those of the most powerfull 40K-psykers, i am not all that familiar with him. However, beings of this power are more numerous in 40K - altough not fielded by the Imperium.

My impression of 40k is that while demigods can approach that level, most of the psykers never do. I am, however, not all that familiar with late 40k; I basically dropped the franchise some years ago.

[Serafina]

The psi-rating system in 40K, used by the Imperium of Man:

Omaga till Sigma are "negative psykers" - they negate psypowers or are highly resistant to them. Omage has more severe effects.

Rho&Pi are normal humans - don't know what the difference is here.

Omikron till Kappa can show psionic activity, but normally only while under emotional stress.

Ioate till Epsilon are the first real psykers, with growing potential.

Delta, Gamma, Beta and Alpha are the most powerfull sane psykers under humans, with the exceptions of very rare individuals. These levels are normally only achieved after intense training.

Alpha Plus is the level where the really powerfull stuff happens.
We rarely see them in action, but they are reported to "enslave cities, kill hundreds of humans with mindblasts and destroy titans".
Thats mighty scetchy, so i am attributing lower levels here - enslaving about 2000 people, killing 200 with mindblasts and destroying a warhound titan by tearing its limbs off (altough they have to blast trough the shields, since those work against psypowers - this would require a brute-force power of at least megatons).

Even higher plus-levels exist (counting down the alphabet - gamma+ is more powerfull than beta+), but those are reserved for Xenos&Demons.


Again, i am looking for quoatable material or secondary sources - the above was given out during a games day in germany 3 (?) years ago. Which makes it official and canonic material.

[Shroom Man 777]

The Eisenhorn books had a great example of a group of rogue psykers causing massive devastation in a large urban setting. Routinely, even psykers of modest ability have also shown considerable endurance - in Scourge the Heretic one of them gets shot through the chest by a large-caliber handgun, with a big hole through his chest, and he seems unaffected by it and well enough to trash talk the protagonist (before getting stabbed in the eye). In Eisenhorn, one of those massively powerful psykers was able to continue fighting despite having most of his head blown off by weapons fire.

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

Destruction of solar systems: Sith have done this in the past (by supernova: first Naga Sadow, Dark Lord of the Sith, and then Aleema, Goth cultist Sith wannabe brat, though the latter had to use a Sith crystal Force-amplifying weapon)

Within Warhammer 40K, there's not even need for force amplifying weapons to do that.

Teleportation: That one I cannot think of a direct counter-example to; Palpatine teleported Luke and Artoo, but not those masses. How large was the army and how long a distance was it teleported?

That wasn't teleportation. That was telekinetics.

Force Lightning is, however, a useless ability when compared to something as simple as telekinesis. It is a terror weapon used to torture and intimidate the ignorant and the weak, not a useful combat ability. Better by far to induce stroke or just snap the opponent's neck. (See the current discussion on Force powers in the Wars forum.)

Why are you bothering with this counterargument when psykers are known to shatter and kill with telekinetics themselves? Hell, Inquisitor Ravenor had a Telekine within his retinue, and she isn't exactly the most powerful around.

Hell, a psyker might not even need that. Some psykers like Ravenor are known to use a form of mind war to attack their enemies. Ravenor was nearly bested by a rogue psyker, if not for someone else's help.

There are ample examples of both Jedi and Sith combining their abilities in the EU, as well as artificial amplifiers being used, and Palpatine specifically has demonstrated the use of both of these. 40k amplifier technology may be more common, but not unique.

The most extreme example of amplifier technology was that device buried in Saint Sabbat's homeworld, that when awakened, obliterated the entire Chaos army on the planet, and swatted aside an invading fleet in the warp.

No offence, but I see no evidence of abilities orders of magnitude superior to Palpatine's.

Let's try an Rogue Inquisitor's pet Daemonhost.