SW vs 40K

[Shroom Man 777]

The Daemonhost was able to obliterate a walking warmachine that's supposed to be able to withstand kiloton-level firepower, or something, in one move. It killed a Titan.

Hell, that Daemonhost was able to travel from Eisenhorn's basement to an entirely different planet with just a few minute's ritual, and was summoned to a starship in deep space with just an incantation.

[Darth Hoth]

Within Warhammer 40K, there's not even need for force amplifying weapons to do that.

Naga Sadow may or may not have needed amplifiers when he did it.

Who is it in 40k that is bursting stars on a regular basis? C'tan, perhaps, but psykers?

That wasn't teleportation. That was telekinetics.

I only went with what Serafina told me. Do you know the source of that story? If it is old enough, it might be in my possession.

Why are you bothering with this counterargument when psykers are known to shatter and kill with telekinetics themselves? Hell, Inquisitor Ravenor had a Telekine within his retinue, and she isn't exactly the most powerful around.

Because Serafina appeared to be arguing that Force Lightning was among the better Sith weapons and thus anyone who could do better than that was stronger than they.

The most extreme example of amplifier technology was that device buried in Saint Sabbat's homeworld, that when awakened, obliterated the entire Chaos army on the planet, and swatted aside an invading fleet in the warp.

Hm. Taking your description at face value, that does sound rather comparable to Palpatine's wormhole.

Let's try an Rogue Inquisitor's pet Daemonhost.

What do they do that beats destroying Super Star Destroyers with brute force?

[Imperial Overlord]

Naga Sadow may or may not have needed amplifiers when he did it.

He only ever star busted when he was on his ship which had that amplifier on it, a force weapon powerful enough that a Sith acolyte was able to blow up a sun. There is zero evidence that he could do it without the amplifier.

It is excellent evidence that the ancient Sith could build heinously and comparatively compact force weapons.

[Dark Hellion]

Hoth, I think people may be taking exception to your argument because you are pitting individual force users who are so powerful their names are remembered throughout history (Naga, Palpatine, etc.) against individuals who are basically pretty mundane in terms of the absolute scale of psychic power. Alpha+s are rare but not so rare that they can't simply end up as faceless casualties. Compared to psychics on the absolute high-end of the scale (where Palpatine clearly is for force users) destroying a Super Star Destroyer is pretty mundane. I do not have books with me, but I am sure others can post the psychic exploits of real heavy hitters like Greater Daemons, Daemon Princes, Chaos Sorcerers, or Malcadore the Sigilite. This is excluding the super heavy hitters like Gork and Mork, the Chaos Gods, or the big man himself the God Emperor of Mankind.

[Darth Hoth]

He only ever star busted when he was on his ship which had that amplifier on it, a force weapon powerful enough that a Sith acolyte was able to blow up a sun. There is zero evidence that he could do it without the amplifier.

It is excellent evidence that the ancient Sith could build heinously and comparatively compact force weapons.

There is also nothing conclusive in the comic that says that he was in fact using the weapon, as there was with Aleema; it is not mentioned in the dialogue nor the narration, and the art was inconclusive. Nevertheless, in the name of being conservative we can assume for the sake of the argument that he needed the booster.

Hoth, I think people may be taking exception to your argument because you are pitting individual force users who are so powerful their names are remembered throughout history (Naga, Palpatine, etc.) against individuals who are basically pretty mundane in terms of the absolute scale of psychic power. Alpha+s are rare but not so rare that they can't simply end up as faceless casualties. Compared to psychics on the absolute high-end of the scale (where Palpatine clearly is for force users) destroying a Super Star Destroyer is pretty mundane. I do not have books with me, but I am sure others can post the psychic exploits of real heavy hitters like Greater Daemons, Daemon Princes, Chaos Sorcerers, or Malcadore the Sigilite. This is excluding the super heavy hitters like Gork and Mork, the Chaos Gods, or the big man himself the God Emperor of Mankind.

My debate with Serafina and the others has from the start been about comparing "heavy hitters" like Palpatine, Naga Sadow et al to their opposite numbers in the 40k Grimdarkverse - that is, similarly human and mortal high-end figures. If I wanted to contend with the likes of the Deceiver and the Emperor of Man I would bring up Ubergod Jerec from the WOTC material (who was supposedly omnipotent and omniscient and could erase star systems from the universe with a passing thought) or Zonama Sekot, the Living Planet. Nor has it been about "Joe Jedi Librarian Vs Jane Delta Psyker" average vs average gladiator fights. The question I have been asking has all along been what human (or vaguely human/humanoid/whatever) psykers, if any, are in the upper Jedi/Sith range, not what gods/Eldritch Horrors are. If I have somehow been unclear with this I apologise.

[Serafina]

The problem about the whole "induced supernove"-thing is that it is not DET.
Or rather, the effects of the supernova are, but not the triggering of it.
It is comparable to triggering a nuke.
I can do that - does that mean that i can unleash megatons of destruction?

For all we know, the amounts of energy to do that are very small or even negative.

Meanwhile, the most powerfull example (Magnus the Red, twice) WAS DET - he created some kind of shockwave that destroyed at least half a dozen cruisers, killed everyone on two inhabitated planets, "layed waste to their cities" (destruction of civilian buildings), "scorched" the surface of these planets, melted at least a meter of ice on another planet and melted or vaporized all the asteroids within that system.
The death toll was "a billion souls" - 500.000.000 humans on each planet, give or take a few. Even if we assume that they had nothing but small houses, thats pretty impressive.

Altogether, at least a couple of teratons, if not more.

The effects are very likely to be DET, since it was not an instant propagation of destruction and he did not trigger any kind of mechanism.

I readily admit that that IS an exceptional example, and we do not know how often or easy he could do that.
But the same goes for Palpatine.

As far as sources go, that was in a german WD from 09. IIRC, it was a preview for the novel "A Thousand Sons", due to release in 2010.

[hongi]

My impression of 40k is that while demigods can approach that level, most of the psykers never do. I am, however, not all that familiar with late 40k; I basically dropped the franchise some years ago.

There are probably far more psykers in the 40K universe than Jedi exist in the SW galaxy at the point of the Clone Wars (a few thousand according to this source) so while most psykers are not as powerful as Gamma-class, I believe the point is that there are more of them than exist the high-end Jedi.

[Imperial Overlord]

My impression of 40k is that while demigods can approach that level, most of the psykers never do. I am, however, not all that familiar with late 40k; I basically dropped the franchise some years ago.

There are probably far more psykers in the 40K universe than Jedi exist in the SW galaxy at the point of the Clone Wars (a few thousand according to this source) so while most psykers are not as powerful as Gamma-class, I believe the point is that there are more of them than exist the high-end Jedi.

A billion astropaths died in one warp based catastrophe. A rogue inquisitor acquired over one hundred alpha plus psykers in the Eisenhorn trilogy. Psykers are far more common in 40K that Force users in Star Wars.

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

What do they do that beats destroying Super Star Destroyers with brute force?

Try obliterating a Warlord Titan with the flick of a finger. Putting a Super Star Destroyer in perspective, it maybe big, it's only an issue of time before one gets obliterated.

My debate with Serafina and the others has from the start been about comparing "heavy hitters" like Palpatine, Naga Sadow et al to their opposite numbers in the 40k Grimdarkverse - that is, similarly human and mortal high-end figures. If I wanted to contend with the likes of the Deceiver and the Emperor of Man I would bring up Ubergod Jerec from the WOTC material (who was supposedly omnipotent and omniscient and could erase star systems from the universe with a passing thought) or Zonama Sekot, the Living Planet. Nor has it been about "Joe Jedi Librarian Vs Jane Delta Psyker" average vs average gladiator fights. The question I have been asking has all along been what human (or vaguely human/humanoid/whatever) psykers, if any, are in the upper Jedi/Sith range, not what gods/Eldritch Horrors are. If I have somehow been unclear with this I apologise.

Contrary to popular opinion, it's more likely Jerec would have burnt himself out using that much Force. Even the Emperor, for all his damn glory, couldn't contain the Dark Side Energies well that he had to have clone bodies by the dozens

[Talk738kno]

Prefall Eldar could quench suns and destroy planets with ease, the only thing stopping them now is that Slanndash would eat them if they ever used that much power. Heck, ghosthelms explicitly restrict the amount of power Eldar psykers can put out for there own safety.

[Sarevok]

My knowledge of 40K is limited to a few of the game rule books I had once upon a time and the internet. Which is saying not much. But I don't recall anything about planetary shielding technology. The CIS can simply glass a few worlds every day until by end of the month there is nothing left of the Imperium of Man.

[Shroom Man 777]

There are void shields that protect hive cities, though. In the relatively obscure, or at least not super-special, local sector economic hub planet in Innocence Proves Nothing a hive city was like eight thousand or so kilometers in diameter and its buildings literally reached the atmosphere. Like, tiny continental Coruscants.

As for psykers, the Imperium sends Black Ships on a regular basis to collect untold numbers of psykers to be sacrificed by their thousands to the Emperor of Man on a daily basis, so he can have the energy to provide the astral coordinates needed for human FTL through a demon infested Warp that's also a battle ground for a cosmic never-ending celestial war between the Emperor himself and the various hideoustrosities that are the Chaos Gods.

EDIT:

Moreover, for no-name psykers stuff like throwing lightning or fire or stuff is pretty much the norm - even for those without much combat training at all. It's worth nothing that the vast majority of "standard" Jedi don't really exhibit lethal force-pushing or force-lightninging and still rely on their lightsabers, when compared to their 40k psyker counterparts.

[Serafina]

However, the existense of theater shields does not prove the existense of planetary shields.
They should be able to have them, but that does not prove that they DO have them.

[Sarevok]

There are void shields that protect hive cities, though. In the relatively obscure, or at least not super-special, local sector economic hub planet in Innocence Proves Nothing a hive city was like eight thousand or so kilometers in diameter and its buildings literally reached the atmosphere. Like, tiny continental Coruscants.

Ah thanks for clearing that up. Can you provide some additional questions ?

1. Is there anything known about the amount of firepower they can withstand ?

2. Do they let slow moving objects through like many other void shields ?

3. Are they common ? I mean every other week there is a ground invasion by orks, tyranids or whatever. You don't hear much about breaching shields of any kind before troops can be landed.

[Shroom Man 777]

Not my purview. My exposure to 40k is limited to the few books I find worth my while, the other fluff would be for more experienced peoples (Connor!) to expound on. That city I mentioned didn't have void shields, as far as I know, but I was just using that city to form a basis for the "standard" hive city. Hive cities have been shown to have void shields, but I can't come up with a specific example since I don't think I've ever read anything on large void shields myself and "hive city voidshields" was just something I heard second-hand.

In any case, should it come to a point where a hive city has to use a theater void shield to withstand a blockade, the city's probably already fucked then since hive cities import prodigious quantities of resources and supplies to prevent starvation and shit.

[Serafina]

Not my purview. My exposure to 40k is limited to the few books I find worth my while, the other fluff would be for more experienced peoples (Connor!) to expound on. That city I mentioned didn't have void shields, as far as I know, but I was just using that city to form a basis for the "standard" hive city. Hive cities have been shown to have void shields, but I can't come up with a specific example since I don't think I've ever read anything on large void shields myself and "hive city voidshields" was just something I heard second-hand.

In any case, should it come to a point where a hive city has to use a theater void shield to withstand a blockade, the city's probably already fucked then since hive cities import prodigious quantities of resources and supplies to prevent starvation and shit.

The hive city in "Necropolis" expected to hold a siege for months.

That may not be true for all hive cities, but it certainly applies to some.

[PainRack]

Hoth, I think people may be taking exception to your argument because you are pitting individual force users who are so powerful their names are remembered throughout history (Naga, Palpatine, etc.) against individuals who are basically pretty mundane in terms of the absolute scale of psychic power. Alpha+s are rare but not so rare that they can't simply end up as faceless casualties. Compared to psychics on the absolute high-end of the scale (where Palpatine clearly is for force users) destroying a Super Star Destroyer is pretty mundane. I do not have books with me, but I am sure others can post the psychic exploits of real heavy hitters like Greater Daemons, Daemon Princes, Chaos Sorcerers, or Malcadore the Sigilite. This is excluding the super heavy hitters like Gork and Mork, the Chaos Gods, or the big man himself the God Emperor of Mankind.

Why them and not the Chief Librarians of the Space Marine Chapters? They're supposed to be one of the higher end psykers in the Imperium as it is and their powress aren't exactly imba when compared to Palpatine.

The Imperium definitely holds the edge in mid level pyskers, but in terms of high end, reliable and well... useful pyskers, it do so in terms of numbers but not quality.

As for psykers, the Imperium sends Black Ships on a regular basis to collect untold numbers of psykers to be sacrificed by their thousands to the Emperor of Man on a daily basis, so he can have the energy to provide the astral coordinates needed for human FTL through a demon infested Warp that's also a battle ground for a cosmic never-ending celestial war between the Emperor himself and the various hideoustrosities that are the Chaos Gods.

Depending on which edition of the rulebooks you're using, the Black Ships may only visit a planet once a year or once a decade. Presumably even longer for planets on the Eastern Fringe.
Furthermore, the fact that the Black Ship actually spends years in transit collecting people before returning to Terra and the fact that the Imperium scarifices thousands of pyskers daily to feed the God Emperor may actually mean that sanctioned pyskers form a minute percentile of the Black Harvest.
And even amongst sanctioned pyskers, only a minority of them possess the powers for combat. And from this minority, another minority emerges that has high end powers.

Moreover, for no-name psykers stuff like throwing lightning or fire or stuff is pretty much the norm - even for those without much combat training at all. It's worth nothing that the vast majority of "standard" Jedi don't really exhibit lethal force-pushing or force-lightninging and still rely on their lightsabers, when compared to their 40k psyker counterparts.
There are void shields that protect hive cities, though. In the relatively obscure, or at least not super-special, local sector economic hub planet in Innocence Proves Nothing a hive city was like eight thousand or so kilometers in diameter and its buildings literally reached the atmosphere. Like, tiny continental Coruscants.

As for psykers, the Imperium sends Black Ships on a regular basis to collect untold numbers of psykers to be sacrificed by their thousands to the Emperor of Man on a daily basis, so he can have the energy to provide the astral coordinates needed for human FTL through a demon infested Warp that's also a battle ground for a cosmic never-ending celestial war between the Emperor himself and the various hideoustrosities that are the Chaos Gods.

Moreover, for no-name psykers stuff like throwing lightning or fire or stuff is pretty much the norm - even for those without much combat training at all. It's worth nothing that the vast majority of "standard" Jedi don't really exhibit lethal force-pushing or force-lightninging and still rely on their lightsabers, when compared to their 40k psyker counterparts.

No. No name combat pyskers are able to throw about lightning or fire. HOWEVER, they are in the minority STILL. Many sanctioned psykers are unable to manifest the warp on the battlefield. Their powers rest in mental shielding, intelligence, foretelling the future and etc.

[Serafina]

Why them and not the Chief Librarians of the Space Marine Chapters? They're supposed to be one of the higher end psykers in the Imperium as it is and their powress aren't exactly imba when compared to Palpatine.

The Imperium definitely holds the edge in mid level pyskers, but in terms of high end, reliable and well... useful pyskers, it do so in terms of numbers but not quality.

Librarians are know for their psychic strenght, but they do NOT use it purely for combat purposes.
Instead, they use their mental strenght for protection from enemy psionics - their psi-matrix allows them toe negate enemy psykers over a wide area.

But yes, the Imperium does not field many high-end psykers.
But a number of stable psykers in the Imperium can match many feats displayed by high-end force users, safe for planetary destruction.

And even amongst sanctioned pyskers, only a minority of them possess the powers for combat. And from this minority, another minority emerges that has high end powers.

Well, even if it is only one in a billion - the Imperium has many billions of subjects, and that quota is still higher than the one of Jedi/Sith.

No. No name combat pyskers are able to throw about lightning or fire. HOWEVER, they are in the minority STILL. Many sanctioned psykers are unable to manifest the warp on the battlefield. Their powers rest in mental shielding, intelligence, foretelling the future and etc.

Such psykers are numerous enough that nearly all Cadian Regiments can field several off them, AND that choirs of weaker psykers are fielded, too. And Cadia fields several dozen regiments.

While you are right that Imperial psykers focus on non-DET effects, most of them CAN manifest such attacks. And even very weak psykers can project anti-tank firepower in groups.

[Helo]

In Wolfs Blade Ragnar fought with untrained psyker.He had psy shield that withstood bolter fire and even granades.And some ability to melt space marine armor.Farseers are known to threw tanks in the air.Rogue alpha+ psyker in Einsenhorn mind controled part of hive city.Deamonhost destroyed titen in seconds.And there are more examples off very powerful psykers.

[bilateralrope]

My knowledge of 40K is limited to a few of the game rule books I had once upon a time and the internet. Which is saying not much. But I don't recall anything about planetary shielding technology. The CIS can simply glass a few worlds every day until by end of the month there is nothing left of the Imperium of Man.

I've heard some daemons that can use the deaths from exterminatus as sacrifices to increase their own power. That will be a nasty surprise to the CIS the first time it happens.

[Connor MacLeod]

Don't have time to get to everything yet, just want to touch on this.

I think that with the CIS' enormous numerical advantage,

They have numbers yes, although there seems to be reasons they never deploy all quintillions/quadrillions all at once (cost of transport perhaps) since they never steamrolled the REpublic. And their combined arms doctrine sucks (they had very light tanks and artillery compared to what the rEpublic fielded, and even teh gunship thing was only changed later.)

Their starships are quite frankly shit to what the Republic had.

plus hyperdrives,

Speed is going to depend alot on navigation. What with warp anomalies, space whales, random fuckery in the 40K galaxy, I wouldn't call navigating it "easy" or totally safe

Speed will also depend on accurate mapping and possibly access to some sort of holonet capacility (not insurmountable obstacles for them, but not trivial concerns either.) FTL comms suffer similar restraints.

that gave it the capacity to ruin Republic shit all throughout the SW Galaxy, they will have a distinct advantage over the 40k forces in terms of strategic movement since 40k FTL leaves a lot to be desired and limits all 40k factions.

Speed is debatable for various reasons, but reliability goes to hyperdrive (as long as you have the right data, at least.) The Eldar Webway and Necrons probably have parity or an edge though, and certain Imperial routes migth actually match or exceed what hyperdrive can do (it would just be limited to specific routes.)

The CIS has no such limits, its ship sports Wars-grade firepower, and it's got the advantage of obscene mass production.

Their starships are shit - poorly armed (GT or TT range guns mainly, mostly rely on missiles or axial superguns as if they were HW Ion cannon frigates) poorly armored (relying on shields for defense) and generally not well designed for combat. There's a reason Venators could take on Separatist destroyers on an IIRC 4-6 to one advantage.

Also again, they didn't steamroll the Republic though, even though they supposedly had a massive numerical advantage over the Republic as per TCW. So while they have massive industrial potential (they can build a DS) they don't apparently utilize it fully or intelligently.

For all the Roger-Rogers and droid slapstick, they're gonna be like the Orks, the Nids and the Necrons combined and loaded with steroids. Goddamn.

They'll be more like Chaos cultists, just more easily replaced really. To be a real threat you have to give them better weapons than those compact rifles and possibly some body armor at least, as wlel as some better tanks and artillery. and some fucking air support.

[Serafina]

Again, 40K is one of the few Sci-Fi universes that has relative parity with Wars.

Wars has it's usual speed advantage, and possibly numbers in some areas plus BDZ-capability.
However, 40K-ships can hold their own against Wars-Ships, and their ground armies are most likely better.

Wars would win if they utilise their speed advantage for massive force concentration in space and then BDZ every important planet.

However, if they overstretch themself and fail at force concentration, they will get a bloody nose in space.
And if they try to conquer anything but mostly undefended worlds, they will meet equal or superior opponents - about equal weaponery and quite often superior tactics.

In any prolonged war, Wars will get the upper hand due to higher production capability and their better capability to bring it to the battlefield. But in the individual battles, they are about equal with certain advantages and disadvantages for each side.

[Feil]

The CIS has no such limits, its ship sports Wars-grade firepower, and it's got the advantage of obscene mass production.

Their starships are shit - poorly armed (GT or TT range guns mainly, mostly rely on missiles or axial superguns as if they were HW Ion cannon frigates) poorly armored (relying on shields for defense) and generally not well designed for combat. There's a reason Venators could take on Separatist destroyers on an IIRC 4-6 to one advantage.

Also again, they didn't steamroll the Republic though, even though they supposedly had a massive numerical advantage over the Republic as per TCW. So while they have massive industrial potential (they can build a DS) they don't apparently utilize it fully or intelligently.

The Separatist fleet escape. The Republic is in complete shock, and while Anakin wants to personally rend Grievous limb from limb, the Senate almost immediately accepts a cease-fire treaty offered by the CIS. Grievous isn't too happy about it either, but Dooku's death deprives the Separatists of their charismatic 'glue' that keeps thousands of systems in line. So he goes back to lick his wounds. Besides, for some strange reason, Sidious is silent. The Republic and CIS draft a border and a tenuous 'peace' reigns.

The CIS are already coming off the end of a long and brutal war, and are, as per the OP, politically fragmented - and they have a galaxy-sized DMZ to keep an eye on. I doubt that the logistic advantage typically granted to Star Wars applies, here.

[PainRack]

Librarians are know for their psychic strenght, but they do NOT use it purely for combat purposes.
Instead, they use their mental strenght for protection from enemy psionics - their psi-matrix allows them toe negate enemy psykers over a wide area.

But yes, the Imperium does not field many high-end psykers.
But a number of stable psykers in the Imperium can match many feats displayed by high-end force users, safe for planetary destruction.

The point being raised by Shroom was that Imperium pyskers are superior to high end force users, and to do so..... he points to Daemonhosts?

Well, even if it is only one in a billion - the Imperium has many billions of subjects, and that quota is still higher than the one of Jedi/Sith.
Such psykers are numerous enough that nearly all Cadian Regiments can field several off them, AND that choirs of weaker psykers are fielded, too. And Cadia fields several dozen regiments.

While you are right that Imperial psykers focus on non-DET effects, most of them CAN manifest such attacks. And even very weak psykers can project anti-tank firepower in groups.

I'm not disputing that the Imperium pyskers outnumber force-users. I'm questioning Shroom implication that there exists a large core of high end Imperium pyskers capable of manifesting warp combat powers via the Black Ships. The density of combat pyskers isn't as high as Shroom implies. Most of them are tied up in the clerical aspects of keeping the Imperium running.
Every single Imperium warship/transport must have an astropath. The Imperium transports may do without, but ships expected to go beyond normal routes and respond flexibly such as the Black Ships and etc have them too. Every single Imperial world requires one pysker for communications. The adminstration must have more simply just to handle the influx of data and logistics. Indeed, the scarcity of pyskers and intersteller communication does more to explain why the Imperium logistics network is inefficient and why Imperial Guard regiments aren't routinely built up with reinforcements from the homeworlds.
And then the Astronomican also require psykers in the numbers of thousands on Terra alone, and there are choir relay beacons scattered throughout the Imperium.

All of these CAN"T manifest warp powers. They are able to use pyschic attacks and they are expected to be able to defend against telepathy and other pyschic attacks but that's it. And they're more along the lines of Force Suggestion, Minor mind control and etc than anything, if they do manifest any such offensive powers.
The Imperium afterall frowns on the training and the use of such capabilities.

Sanctioned psykers to the IG are combat capable. HOWEVER, alone, these "no name" pyskers aren't able to manifest warp powers in the extent of throwing around fireballs and etc on their own.

[PainRack]

Their starships are shit - poorly armed (GT or TT range guns mainly, mostly rely on missiles or axial superguns as if they were HW Ion cannon frigates) poorly armored (relying on shields for defense) and generally not well designed for combat. There's a reason Venators could take on Separatist destroyers on an IIRC 4-6 to one advantage.

Also again, they didn't steamroll the Republic though, even though they supposedly had a massive numerical advantage over the Republic as per TCW. So while they have massive industrial potential (they can build a DS) they don't apparently utilize it fully or intelligently.

Is there any indication that the CIS navy was decisively superior in numbers to the Republic? Shatterpoint is the only bit that comes to mind and Durge Lance but even here, the bits involved appears to be about starfighters and manpower issues, not starships.

Its entirely possible that the Republic maintained sufficient shipyards to maintain parity in terms of their navies. Kuat, Rothana, Correllia and other major shipyards of the SWU remained with the Republic and these were the major military shipyards of the galaxy then.
The Malevolence if anything suggest that the CIS had to concentrate more and more on "superbattleships" so as to offset Republic ships superiority, given that a good number of the TF ships are converted freighters. They may had been built as modular ships that can dedicate themselves to carriers/battleships/transports, but they were based on commercial designs afterall.