Arizona State University Pimp Slaps John McCain with Class.

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Arizona State University Pimp Slaps John McCain with Class.

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GOP and John McCain Call Social Insect Research, among other Science, Waste
“I had no idea that so much expertise concerning ants resided in the major universities of my state,” said McCain. “I say that with an element of pride, but I’m not sure it's deserving of these taxpayers’ dollars.”

The State University of New York at Buffalo won $390,000 to study young adults who drink malt liquor and smoke marijuana. The National Institutes of Health got $219,000 in funds to study whether female college students are more likely to “hook up” after drinking alcohol.

The University of Hawaii collected $210,000 to study the learning patterns of honeybees, and $700,000 went to help crab fishermen in Oregon recover lost crab pots.
ASU (defending the labs I used to work in... because I used to do research in the labs he specifically mentioned) Fires Back
Ants touted in Financial Times’ ‘books of the year.’

Pulitzer-Prize winner and Arizona State University professor Bert Hölldobler and Edward O. Wilson’s newest collaborative publication “The Superorganism: The beauty, elegance and strangeness of insect societies” has been chosen as one of the standout books of 2009 by the Financial Times.

Written in fine detail for a broad readership, “The Superorganism” chronicles the “remarkable growth of knowledge concerning the social insects during the past two decades and provides a deep look in to a part of the living world hitherto glimpsed by only a very few.”

Featured not only by the Financial Times, but also chosen as the New York Times Notable Book of the Year (2008) and Library Journals Top Sci-Tech Books (2008), “The Superorganism’s” power resides in our long-standing fascination and relationship (and yes, dependence) on social insects, in combination with the skill and passion of its authors.

It is easy to overlook ants, bees and termites, unless they complicate our lives with invasions or stings. However, social insects are among the most ecologically important species in almost all land ecosystems, Hölldobler says. Making up only 2 – 3 percent of all animal species, they comprise nearly 80 percent of the entire insect biomass and 35 percent of the entire animal biomass (excluding humans). Arizona, home to Hölldobler and ASU’s School of Life Sciences’ Social Insect Research Group, holds the richest ant fauna in the United States. Ants farm, go to war and play key roles in the environment – turning over soils, distributing seeds, and hunting plant-eating insects; they and other social insects also play growing roles in studies of complex adaptive systems, swarm theory, social complexity, aging and biomedical discovery. “The Superorganism” details just one of the many intriguing studies of Hölldobler with leaf-cutting ants which revealed ants’ use of vibrations to slice through leaves; work which inspired engineers from the Technical University in Ilmenau, Germany, to develop vibrational micro-surgery tools.

Superorganisms, those self-organized entities that emerge from countless interactions of hundreds, thousands or millions of individuals tightly knit by altruistic cooperation, complex communication and division of labor, find their highest expression in the insects, according to Hölldobler. And while the concept of the collective – the superorganism – is not new and indeed has been popularized in novels, movies and television, it is gaining new impetus and understanding.

For example, studies of ant and bee collectives have translated into ways of managing our own human societies. Savvy businesses translate findings from insect studies into corporate savings. Air Liquide uses ant-based delivery protocols to save more than 6 million dollars a year. Companies in Italy and Switzerland, according to a piece in National Geographic (2007) use: “fleets of trucks carrying milk and dairy products, heating oil, and groceries all use ant-foraging rules to find the best routes for deliveries. In England and France, telephone companies have made calls go through faster on their networks by programming messages to deposit virtual pheromones at switching stations, just as ants leave signals for other ants to show them the best trails. In the U.S., Southwest Airlines has tested an ant-based model to improve service at Sky Harbor International Airport in Phoenix."

And we haven’t even started to talk about our dependence on, study of and investment in bees. The USDA estimates that there are up to 212,000 hobbyist bee keepers and 1,600 commercial operations in the United States, with the honey crop valued at $153 million in 2007. Bees are critical pollinators. According to the National Honey Board, the first colony rented out to help pollinate crops was in 1909. Now more than 2.5 million colonies are rented for pollination, producing agricultural crops that topped $5.7 billion in the U.S. The California almond crop, produced from 420,000 acres of trees, is entirely dependent on honey bee pollination and involves up to 1 million bees.

What else do ants, bees and wasps hold in secret? Hölldobler says that while more than 13,000 species have been discovered; there are thousands more yet to be found. “The Superorganism” is one glowing chapter in the-book-yet-to-be-written and brings us closer to the mystery, diversity and invention of our insect neighbors.

“The nature of our planet without ants, bees or termites would look very different. The tremendous ecological success of these social insects is certainly due to their elaborate systems of division of labor and complex social organizations. They are fantastic model systems for the study social complexity and the evolution of social life on Earth.”

Hölldobler came to ASU’s College of Liberal Arts and Sciences in 2004. He is a member of several national and international Academies, among them the German National Academy of Sciences (Leopoldina), the American Philosophical Society, the American Academy of Arts and Sciences, and the National Academy of Sciences (USA). He is also the recipient of numerous honors, including the Gottfried Wilhelm Leibniz Prize of the German Science Foundation, one of the highest science prizes in Europe, and the National Merit Medal of Germany. He has authored three books with Wilson, including “The Ants” which won the Pulitzer Prize for General Nonfiction in 1991.
This is just fucking great.
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Re: Arizona State University Pimp Slaps John McCain with Class.

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Did you honestly expect a GOP Conservative to understand Science?
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Re: Arizona State University Pimp Slaps John McCain with Class.

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LadyTevar wrote:Did you honestly expect a GOP Conservative to understand Science?
Fuck no. I am just thoroughly impressed that the University smacked him down with such class.
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Re: Arizona State University Pimp Slaps John McCain with Class.

Post by Tellos »

I can see how this could be a win for the research community. However McCain made a good point that in the rather dreadful ecconamy it might be wise to prioritize where our money will go at this time. I admit the class in which they smacked his face with his a credit to the University however I feel we shouldint write off McCain as just a republican becasue he might wish to try and actualy act like a conservative unlike many who claim to be such.
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Re: Arizona State University Pimp Slaps John McCain with Class.

Post by Tanasinn »

Or we could assume he's being a politician and targeting "government spending absurdities" that he knows his base objects to because they're as dumb as a bag of dog shit and twice as obnoxious. You know, the "correct" assumption to make. The university's response is impressive, if futile - the only people that are going to care are the people on their side.
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Re: Arizona State University Pimp Slaps John McCain with Class.

Post by Tellos »

Saddly you are likely correct I was just trying to give McCain a snowballs chance in hell he might actualy be finaly doing something smart. The trouble is all these congressional muppets act the same and I wished we could get a serious third party not the 10 or so parties who have the same 12 losers who vote for it every election. I actualy read one of those voter books they send you here in washington state and you see maybe 7 or 10 other parties most however have no serious chance of winning.
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Re: Arizona State University Pimp Slaps John McCain with Class.

Post by Alyrium Denryle »

Tellos wrote:I can see how this could be a win for the research community. However McCain made a good point that in the rather dreadful ecconamy it might be wise to prioritize where our money will go at this time. I admit the class in which they smacked his face with his a credit to the University however I feel we shouldint write off McCain as just a republican becasue he might wish to try and actualy act like a conservative unlike many who claim to be such.
To put this in perspective. If we do not understand bees, food markets can collapse. Your life, whether you know it or not, is dependent upon social insects.

Cutting pure research is basically cutting the heart out of your future, and considering the tiny tiny portion of our nations budget that goes to it (only a few tens of billions a year, out of the Massive budget) it is worth the cost.
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Re: Arizona State University Pimp Slaps John McCain with Class.

Post by Tellos »

I can see your point there Iguess I'd just like to see the government try to not spend 15 grand on a study to find out why people want to get out of prision. I heard this on a Lewis Black album so it might be pure BS but if it is true I'd say I could tell you fairly accuratly why they want out and I never have been in prison. Either way you are right we cannot just cut swaths of research with no thought to what actualy relies on that research. A fine point made sir I am refreshed to have serious civlized and logical conversations with people as those I live with seem unable to have sane disagreements and beleive everything their told.
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Re: Arizona State University Pimp Slaps John McCain with Class.

Post by Alyrium Denryle »

I can see your point there Iguess I'd just like to see the government try to not spend 15 grand on a study to find out why people want to get out of prision.
Recidivism rates are very very high. It is in everyone's best interests to figure out ways to decrease it. What better way to do that than find out what motivates people to get the fuck out of prison, or stay out, and then work to make sure they can make good on those motivations.

And 15 grand is nothing when it comes to research. That is the cost of a massive mail and phone survey, and paying people to enter and analyze a metric asston of data.
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Re: Arizona State University Pimp Slaps John McCain with Class.

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Tellos wrote:I can see your point there Iguess I'd just like to see the government try to not spend 15 grand on a study to find out why people want to get out of prision. I heard this on a Lewis Black album so it might be pure BS but if it is true I'd say I could tell you fairly accuratly why they want out and I never have been in prison. Either way you are right we cannot just cut swaths of research with no thought to what actualy relies on that research. A fine point made sir I am refreshed to have serious civlized and logical conversations with people as those I live with seem unable to have sane disagreements and beleive everything their told.
I think the problem comes that McCain was trying to score a cheap political point with his substitutents, by criticizing research which he knows nothing about and is profoundly ignorant of its ramifications, but still willing to declare it a waste of taxpayers dollars.
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Re: Arizona State University Pimp Slaps John McCain with Class.

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I don't think it's possible to overstate the impact that Holldobler and Wilson's work has had on behavioral and ecological studies. McCain just made himself look a complete fool.
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Re: Arizona State University Pimp Slaps John McCain with Class.

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Alyrium Denryle wrote:To put this in perspective. If we do not understand bees, food markets can collapse. Your life, whether you know it or not, is dependent upon social insects.
I was unaware that corn/wheat required pollination by beeeees. Losing bees would mean prices on certain food crops would go up by several magnitudes; but the overall staples of food production would remain constant, albeit with increased prices from the increase in demand to fill the gap left by other crops.
Cutting pure research is basically cutting the heart out of your future, and considering the tiny tiny portion of our nations budget that goes to it (only a few tens of billions a year, out of the Massive budget) it is worth the cost.
Except this kind of research is bullshit -- and I say this as a resident of a state that has a not-insignificant fishery population (the blue crab is on my drivers license, FYI) -- why the fuck should we give universities $390 k to study people who drink hard liquor and smoke pot? Or give them $219k to study whether women are more likely to have sex with you if they're drunk?

Or getting $210k to study the learning patterns of honeybees or $700k to recover lost pots for Oregon Crabbers?

A better use of this money would be to spend it on finding out why honeybee colonies keep dying -- and better ways to increase the population of bivalves in the Chesapeake bay via planting of farm grown bivalves (e.g find a way to make it more efficient).

The remainder can go to the Nuclear Regulatory Council, the successor to the Atomic Energy Commission; to help fight the bullshit that environuts keep hitting nuclear industries with.
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Re: Arizona State University Pimp Slaps John McCain with Class.

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I was unaware that corn/wheat required pollination by beeeees. Losing bees would mean prices on certain food crops would go up by several magnitudes; but the overall staples of food production would remain constant, albeit with increased prices from the increase in demand to fill the gap left by other crops.
They dont. But 30 percent of what you eat does. Corn and wheat are NOT a complete diet.
Except this kind of research is bullshit -- and I say this as a resident of a state that has a not-insignificant fishery population (the blue crab is on my drivers license, FYI) -- why the fuck should we give universities $390 k to study people who drink hard liquor and smoke pot? Or give them $219k to study whether women are more likely to have sex with you if they're drunk?
Crab and lobster traps have huge amounts of bycatch. They are death traps for more than just their target organisms if they get lose and are not checked.

And dont you think that drug use and drunk-sex (which is legally rape) are legitimate targets for study when we are trying to reduce the incidence of both of them?
Or getting $210k to study the learning patterns of honeybees
Because that knowledge has direct industrial application.

http://sols.asu.edu/frontiers/2010/index.php
A better use of this money would be to spend it on finding out why honeybee colonies keep dying -- and better ways to increase the population of bivalves in the Chesapeake bay via planting of farm grown bivalves (e.g find a way to make it more efficient).
Both of these are getting very very generous funding

I realize you dont give a shit about research that does not lead to people's deaths, or chronicle said death but do try not to be so fucking short sighted.
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Re: Arizona State University Pimp Slaps John McCain with Class.

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MKSheppard wrote: A better use of this money would be to spend it on finding out why honeybee colonies keep dying
They've already made quite a bit of progress in that.
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Re: Arizona State University Pimp Slaps John McCain with Class.

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Did you honestly expect a GOP Conservative to understand Science?
No, but I do expect you to understand that when he questions whether these studies deserve taxpayer funding, he is not also implicitly questioning the merit of scientific studies generally.

I don't pretend to have a handle on the merits of any of these research projects, and I do believe that taxpayer money should be used to fund scientific research in numerous fields. However, there are strong practical arguments to be made about spending with discretion.

If one reads the original article, Republicans are (correctly) concerned about the merit of spending taxpayer dollars on a geothermal energy system for a shopping mall in decline; on paleontology (which, while interesting, pales in importance to research on living organisms); and on political theater. Why is a dinner cruise out of the Port of Chicago receiving money for counter-terrorism operations? Skepticism of the study of ants in particular may not be borne out, after further consideration, but looking before you spend is just good, sound judgment.
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Re: Arizona State University Pimp Slaps John McCain with Class.

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Axis Kast wrote:No, but I do expect you to understand that when he questions whether these studies deserve taxpayer funding, he is not also implicitly questioning the merit of scientific studies generally.

I don't pretend to have a handle on the merits of any of these research projects, and I do believe that taxpayer money should be used to fund scientific research in numerous fields. However, there are strong practical arguments to be made about spending with discretion.
Sure he is. He knows nothing about the research in question or research in general, but he questions its worth to exist. If you cut off government funding to alot of even necessary research, like energy production (something I'm involved in tangentially now that I've selected my research group), it goes right down the tube. While private industry does provide funding to research, they themselves very deliberately let the government provide most of the funding from government grants, for understandable reasons. Merck may not see money back for years when they fund organic chemistry groups, they are betting on the notion that eventually the PIs and the graduate students they are funding will cough up something marketable and are nervous that it might not pan out, even if the failure does lead to new understanding about the systems studied.

Read McCain's comments. He knows absolutely nothing about the research being done, but still feels the need to say that it shouldn't be funded. Hell, McCain went from high school, to the Navy, and then directly into Arizona politics in his career. He doesn't know dick about science. I take this somewhat seriously because I happen to be a PhD candidate in Arizona, a state that's already burdened with a State Senate that loves slashing research budgets on the altar of Conservativism, despite collectively about about as well educated in science as McCain himself is (that is; none at all).
If one reads the original article, Republicans are (correctly) concerned about the merit of spending taxpayer dollars on a geothermal energy system for a shopping mall in decline; on paleontology (which, while interesting, pales in importance to research on living organisms); and on political theater. Why is a dinner cruise out of the Port of Chicago receiving money for counter-terrorism operations? Skepticism of the study of ants in particular may not be borne out, after further consideration, but looking before you spend is just good, sound judgment.
Republicans hate Paleontology because it supports conclusions about a non-Genesis Earth and don't understand its ramifications anyway. You yourself prove that, given you seem to be unaware that studying evolution and how older living systems existed in terms of anatomy, physiology and habits very strongly have alot to do with studying living systems today. Paleontology is not merely stamp collecting in the same way studying superorganisms like ants isn't.

However, to the crux of your argument, it is all well and good to say you should look before you fund research, which is what grant proposals are for, but since when is someone like McCain (with his vast high school education) remotely qualified to make that determination? Or most politicians, for that matter? McCain put his foot in his mouth here in a large way on the subject, why you you defend their ignorance as them being sensible when mostly its that they don't understand research and thus don't understand what its good for in a practical way?
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Re: Arizona State University Pimp Slaps John McCain with Class.

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Axis Kast wrote:If one reads the original article, Republicans are (correctly) concerned about the merit of spending taxpayer dollars on a geothermal energy system for a shopping mall in decline
Aren't all shopping malls in decline at the moment? And wouldn't an older less successful mall be one of the ones with the greatest need for increased efficency?
on paleontology (which, while interesting, pales in importance to research on living organisms);
What is that saying about those who do not know their history? Also keep in mind that fossils wait for no man-erosion is constant and implacable and will continue regardless of whether or not we send out scientists to see what it uncovers.
and on political theater.
Hey, I happen to think communist puppet shows are hilarious. Would they be better if they were gay puppets? Early Muppet preservation?
Why is a dinner cruise out of the Port of Chicago receiving money for counter-terrorism operations?
I dunno, one might think that a boat on the lake might have a viewpoint you don't have from the shoreline and some sort of link to the harbormaster or other authorities. Or maybe they have security guards and hire a bomb sniffing dog to check incoming purchases and items.
Skepticism of the study of ants in particular may not be borne out, after further consideration, but looking before you spend is just good, sound judgment.
Given the number of forms one has to fill out to get government money, I think there's plenty of looking going on in general. There are certainly cases of excessive spending, but on the average, what does the picture look like?
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Re: Arizona State University Pimp Slaps John McCain with Class.

Post by Coyote »

I like that, Aly, but here's the problem: the typical GOP conservatard will see this:
conservative thought process wrote:John McCain is a great American hero, and said science is a waste of taxpayers' money

The Scientists responded with:
words words words words big fancy high-falutin' words
"Gol' durn them fancy-pants big-city college boys! Johnboy McCain oughta' beat 'em up, like he beat up then thar Veet-Nammese!"

Sorry to pee in your Cheerios, but... that's what we can expect.
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Re: Arizona State University Pimp Slaps John McCain with Class.

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"Gol' durn them fancy-pants big-city college boys! Johnboy McCain oughta' beat 'em up, like he beat up then thar Veet-Nammese!"
not to be crass but my response would be "Actually if my understanding of history is correct, it was the other way around with the Vietnamese"
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Re: Arizona State University Pimp Slaps John McCain with Class.

Post by Axis Kast »

Sure he is. He knows nothing about the research in question or research in general, but he questions its worth to exist.
He's being asked to make a snap judgment based on limited information. He's sharing a preliminary opinion, not stripping their funding summarily.
If you cut off government funding to alot of even necessary research, like energy production (something I'm involved in tangentially now that I've selected my research group), it goes right down the tube. While private industry does provide funding to research, they themselves very deliberately let the government provide most of the funding from government grants, for understandable reasons. Merck may not see money back for years when they fund organic chemistry groups, they are betting on the notion that eventually the PIs and the graduate students they are funding will cough up something marketable and are nervous that it might not pan out, even if the failure does lead to new understanding about the systems studied.
I am aware, and sympathetic to, the strong arguments on behalf of government funding for the sciences. I am also aware, however, of the already enormous, and constantly increasing demand on, the limited supply of federal tax money.

Fueled by the media's constant coverage of politics in our nation's capital -- where the biggest players roll the dice for the highest stakes -- we are increasingly prone to assume those decision makers can, and should, help us solve a wide range of problems. In some cases, government has neither the architecture nor the capacity to meet our expectations. I am reminded of a thread in which I questioned whether people have realistic expectations of what the government can do for them during a disaster event, and warned that the government wasn't going to render the assistance expected. The reply was, "But you're an idiot! The government is required to do that!" The government is expected, or required, to do a great many things. It does not do all of them. It does not do all of them well. In a roundabout way, here is my point: stimulating research that can improve the public good is a necessary and worthy activity that deserves a slice of the finite pie we call the federal budget. I get the impression, however, that yours is a kneejerk reaction to the idea that any scientific endeavor may be unworthy. For instance, I am especially interested to see some proof that the practical applications that have emerged from paleontology are, on the whole, more important than those that have arisen from the study of living organisms.

You do yourself a grave disservice, too, in assuming that a religious agenda -- which, I assure you, I do not have -- informs or encourages my skepticism. The Bible is, to the best of my understanding, a very readable piece of collaborative myth-making which has been turned to the service of a variety of agendas over the centuries. I don't doubt Evolution for one second. I do, however, doubt the spirit in which the criticisms of McCain's position are being made.
However, to the crux of your argument, it is all well and good to say you should look before you fund research, which is what grant proposals are for, but since when is someone like McCain (with his vast high school education) remotely qualified to make that determination? Or most politicians, for that matter? McCain put his foot in his mouth here in a large way on the subject, why you you defend their ignorance as them being sensible when mostly its that they don't understand research and thus don't understand what its good for in a practical way?
McCain is one of the people who controls the purse-strings. Regardless of his educational background, he is not only entitled, but expected, to ask, "Where are these funds going? Why? What are the other demands?"
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Re: Arizona State University Pimp Slaps John McCain with Class.

Post by Alyrium Denryle »

He's being asked to make a snap judgment based on limited information. He's sharing a preliminary opinion, not stripping their funding summarily.
He did not even know that two of the largest research groups in his state, one of which has a National Academy member as its head existed.
McCain is one of the people who controls the purse-strings. Regardless of his educational background, he is not only entitled, but expected, to ask, "Where are these funds going? Why? What are the other demands?"
He is also being dishonest, casting the research funded by the stimulus as pork. It is not. The funds go to the NSF, NIH, NASA, the DOE, EPA, DOD etc and they decided based upon their professional expertise where the money should go through a competitive review process. It is their specifically chartered mission to do just that, free of political interference from congress.
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Re: Arizona State University Pimp Slaps John McCain with Class.

Post by Axis Kast »


He did not even know that two of the largest research groups in his state, one of which has a National Academy member as its head existed.
Is that found somewhere in the article you quoted, or your above statement refer to a different incident in which he betrayed ignorance?
He is also being dishonest, casting the research funded by the stimulus as pork. It is not. The funds go to the NSF, NIH, NASA, the DOE, EPA, DOD etc and they decided based upon their professional expertise where the money should go through a competitive review process. It is their specifically chartered mission to do just that, free of political interference from congress.
A quick (third) read of the article indicates that McCain in particular is concerned at (1) the nature of the programs which have been found to merit funding; (2) the manner in, and conditions under which funding were disbursed.

The NSF, NIH, NASA, DoE, EPA, and DoD are perfectly capable of engaging in acts which could only be described as "boneheaded," quite without help from Congress.
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Re: Arizona State University Pimp Slaps John McCain with Class.

Post by Alyrium Denryle »

Is that found somewhere in the article you quoted, or your above statement refer to a different incident in which he betrayed ignorance?
I used to work in ASU's Social Insect Research Group. In fact I worked with the very lab he is bitching about. I know most of the people in each one. That is how I know how well funded they are and the composition.
“I had no idea that so much expertise concerning ants resided in the major universities of my state,” said McCain. “I say that with an element of pride, but I’m not sure it's deserving of these taxpayers’ dollars.”
IE. He did not know that those labs existed.
A quick (third) read of the article indicates that McCain in particular is concerned at (1) the nature of the programs which have been found to merit funding; (2) the manner in, and conditions under which funding were disbursed.
I can tell you, at least as far as the NSF is concerned. They have several focus areas (topics, like ecology, or high energy physics) where funding can be allocated. A scientist submits a proposal which includes an itemized budget, and this is sent to the relevant subject group. A panel of scientists in the relevant field reviews the proposal to determine whether it has merit. If it does it gets sent up the chain and eventually (after a few program officers review it) it is either accepted or rejected

http://www.nsf.gov/about/how.jsp

It is a peer reviewed process and frankly the congress has Zero competence or even authority to decide which proposals get funding. If they start getting involved, science becomes a political hot potato. Now I suppose they could de-fund the agencies... That however would be a very bad idea.
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Re: Arizona State University Pimp Slaps John McCain with Class.

Post by Gil Hamilton »

Axis Kast wrote:He's being asked to make a snap judgment based on limited information. He's sharing a preliminary opinion, not stripping their funding summarily.
Limited information? He clearly doesn't know anything on the issue. No, he was trying to score political points by talking about sparing taxpayers dollars to research that he's deemed useless despite knowing nothing about it. If he knew nothing about the topic and of what the research was good for, why did he comment at all, had he not decided that it was a safe topic to use as money going down a hole by egghead researchers?
I am aware, and sympathetic to, the strong arguments on behalf of government funding for the sciences. I am also aware, however, of the already enormous, and constantly increasing demand on, the limited supply of federal tax money.

Fueled by the media's constant coverage of politics in our nation's capital -- where the biggest players roll the dice for the highest stakes -- we are increasingly prone to assume those decision makers can, and should, help us solve a wide range of problems. In some cases, government has neither the architecture nor the capacity to meet our expectations. I am reminded of a thread in which I questioned whether people have realistic expectations of what the government can do for them during a disaster event, and warned that the government wasn't going to render the assistance expected. The reply was, "But you're an idiot! The government is required to do that!" The government is expected, or required, to do a great many things. It does not do all of them. It does not do all of them well. In a roundabout way, here is my point: stimulating research that can improve the public good is a necessary and worthy activity that deserves a slice of the finite pie we call the federal budget. I get the impression, however, that yours is a kneejerk reaction to the idea that any scientific endeavor may be unworthy. For instance, I am especially interested to see some proof that the practical applications that have emerged from paleontology are, on the whole, more important than those that have arisen from the study of living organisms.
Those resources got to agencies with experts who decide who gets the money based on a review process. That's why, for example, my group writes grants to the Department of Energy and the National Science Foundation. If jackasses like McCain close the coffers because they are profoundly ignorant of how money is used and what research does, then alot of important research is going to just run dry because there is no one else to fund them.
You do yourself a grave disservice, too, in assuming that a religious agenda -- which, I assure you, I do not have -- informs or encourages my skepticism. The Bible is, to the best of my understanding, a very readable piece of collaborative myth-making which has been turned to the service of a variety of agendas over the centuries. I don't doubt Evolution for one second. I do, however, doubt the spirit in which the criticisms of McCain's position are being made.
Except that many Republicans absolutely DO feel that way. My addressing to you was the notion that paleontology was somehow what's called a "stamp collecting" science, one that is interesting but not particularly useful, not that you are a creationist (even though you use the limited political power you have to further Creationism). That is not true, of course, but you seem to be unaware of that.
McCain is one of the people who controls the purse-strings. Regardless of his educational background, he is not only entitled, but expected, to ask, "Where are these funds going? Why? What are the other demands?"
Yet he is not qualified to make that determination, because he knows nothing about what research is good and deserves funding and what is not. His snide little comment about the superorganism research demonstrates this. Someone who struggled to do college algebra at the Naval Academy has no place saying anyone's research isn't worthy of existing. Yet, there he went.
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Re: Arizona State University Pimp Slaps John McCain with Class.

Post by Axis Kast »

IE. He did not know that those labs existed.
He was unaware the majority universities of his state hosted leading researchers of ants. This is surprising? No matter how large it is, the subject matter is, for most folks, pretty esoteric; even unapproachable. Research into super-organisms may make dollars and cents, but it's unglamorous, and unlikely to rise to the attention of anybody not closely tied to either the issue, or the university's science department.
It is a peer reviewed process and frankly the congress has Zero competence or even authority to decide which proposals get funding. If they start getting involved, science becomes a political hot potato. Now I suppose they could de-fund the agencies... That however would be a very bad idea.
Reducing the funding given to the agencies which make those decisions appears to be exactly what Coburn and McCain have in mind. It's imperfect to try and target specific projects by proxy, but all they can do.

And let's be realistic: if taxpayer money is flowing into science, it's going to become a political issue. The science itself should not be politicized, but there is no reason that the benefits -- or lack thereof -- should not receive scrutiny from those who steward public funds.
Limited information? He clearly doesn't know anything on the issue. No, he was trying to score political points by talking about sparing taxpayers dollars to research that he's deemed useless despite knowing nothing about it. If he knew nothing about the topic and of what the research was good for, why did he comment at all, had he not decided that it was a safe topic to use as money going down a hole by egghead researchers?
He's a politician. Why are you so surprised that he rushed to render judgment? Senators and Congressmen stake their careers on making gut calls; we tend to perceive those who ask for more time, or all the facts, as wishy-washy. I don't like it, but I also don't see how we're going to fix it anytime soon. It's unremarkable, at this point.

Much of the tarring of the grants appears to be valid, on the face of it. A $1 million grant to secure a dinner cruise out of Chicago?
Those resources got to agencies with experts who decide who gets the money based on a review process. That's why, for example, my group writes grants to the Department of Energy and the National Science Foundation. If jackasses like McCain close the coffers because they are profoundly ignorant of how money is used and what research does, then alot of important research is going to just run dry because there is no one else to fund them.
The only thing they can do is turn down the flow of money, hoping that it encourages what they would consider "wiser" decisions on the part of the bodies that dispense that money. Again, with the possible exception of the scientific studies coming onto the chopping block, some of which may not, in fact, be worthwhile, I don't see much to complain about. The consensus here appears to be that all science is worthwhile, all the time. You don't seem to be taking into account that the federal government has plenty of other competing, urgent debts. Some science is a luxury we may, or may not, be able to afford, depending on the circumstances.
Except that many Republicans absolutely DO feel that way. My addressing to you was the notion that paleontology was somehow what's called a "stamp collecting" science, one that is interesting but not particularly useful, not that you are a creationist (even though you use the limited political power you have to further Creationism). That is not true, of course, but you seem to be unaware of that.
Prove that McCain and Coburn feel that way. Prove that I do. If you can't, we can dismiss your remark as non-sequitor.

I don't use the limited political power I have to further Creatonism; I use it to vote for individuals whom I think will address correctly those issues which I think are most important and most superable. If they support the Creationist's agenda -- and they tend to -- that's unfortunate fallout.

I would like to see some discussion of the practical benefits of paleontology, should you know of any. I have to guess that there might have been some breakthroughs in our understanding of geology arising from the search for, and discovery of, the bones of animals recently and long extinct, but nothing in the way of medical breakthroughs. I am, however, aware of a recent venture by American tycoon John Hammond in Costa Rica...
Yet he is not qualified to make that determination, because he knows nothing about what research is good and deserves funding and what is not. His snide little comment about the superorganism research demonstrates this. Someone who struggled to do college algebra at the Naval Academy has no place saying anyone's research isn't worthy of existing. Yet, there he went.
The Naval Academy is, as I understand it, one of the most rigorous educational institutions on earth, although John McCain did not achieve high marks or honors.

More to the point, you seem incapable of understanding that McCain has a responsibility to decide whether we ought to spend money on research grants, or other priorities, including servicing the national debt. He isn't depriving money from "The Sciences" for no reason other than because he is a ghoulish Republican.

Your claim that he is fallible because he did not achieve high marks in school is spurious. I trust you would not automatically credit my opinions with greater weight than anyone else's on this board, though I graduated from Johns Hopkins summa cum laude? Shall I snub my nose at those who do not have a Master's Degree, though one member of this community previously evinced shock that I do not. I do not expect John McCain to know much about good and bad research; I expect him to spend money in a reasonable manner, balancing probable outcomes. As far as I can tell, much of the money in question in the original article was badly misspent. McCain and Coburn may eventually fire from the hip; there could be collateral damage in the Academies. If it is too great, they will have won my criticism. If not, my praise.
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