SW vs 40K

[Imperial Overlord]

Painrack, all psychic powers draw from the warp, but not all warp powers are psychic abilities (such as sorcery, daemonic abilities, or warp cannons). Please, for the love of the Emperor, don't misuse the language.

Pyromancy is canonically one of the most common psychic abilities, so

1) There are billions of Imperial astropaths alone and a renegade inquisitor can acquire over a hundred alpha plus psykers

2) You can fry a man's mind with telepathy (astropath's specialty) and they aren't restricted to telepathy

3) Pyrokinetic and telekinetic abilities are common among the psyker population

4) Gamma grade psykers can manifest attacks so powerful they cause massive collateral damage as secondary effects. Alpha grade can mind control whole cities, crush titans, etcetera.

5) The Jedi Order, the largest group of Force users in the galaxy, at its height can barely crack double digit thousands and many of their members aren't that powerful.

This leads to

6) 40K grossly outnumbers SW when it comes to numbers of powerful combat mage types

[Darth Hoth]

Try obliterating a Warlord Titan with the flick of a finger. Putting a Super Star Destroyer in perspective, it maybe big, it's only an issue of time before one gets obliterated.

"Obliterating" meaning incineration, vapourisation, what? And how big are those? Keep in mind that we are talking about a Star Wars warship with a volume of many hundreds of cubic kilometres.

Contrary to popular opinion, it's more likely Jerec would have burnt himself out using that much Force. Even the Emperor, for all his damn glory, couldn't contain the Dark Side Energies well that he had to have clone bodies by the dozens

Perhaps a transcendent being no longer requires a human body? Even Palpatine made it a point that he "live[d] primarily as energy", and the canon has examples of disembodied Sith spirits of much lesser power who did not appear terribly bothered by their lack of a corporeal host (e.g., Freedon Nadd). Nothing in the canon indicates that his apotheosis would be unstable.

[Darth Hoth]

5) The Jedi Order, the largest group of Force users in the galaxy, at its height can barely crack double digit thousands and many of their members aren't that powerful.

For the absolute high-end Wars Force-user number, the DESB and derived sources speak of Palpatine planning to replace the Imperial government ministers and planetary governors with his Dark Side Adepts, who then presumably must have numbered at least in the millions. The source still indicates that most of them would have been on the weak end of the spectrum, and even so their numbers probably do not match those of 40k. Still, it is notable that the Empire appears to have fielded more Force adepts than the Jedi at their height, what with Adepts, Inquisitorius, Sovereign Protectors, Prophets of the Dark Side and all.

Dark Forces: Jedi Knight names Lord Kaan's Brotherhood of Darkness (a group of pseudo-Sith/fallen Jedi) to have numbered ~20,000 at their height. THe death of ~2,000 of them and an equivalent number of Jedi to a thought bomb created the Valley on Ruusan.

[Serafina]

Try obliterating a Warlord Titan with the flick of a finger. Putting a Super Star Destroyer in perspective, it maybe big, it's only an issue of time before one gets obliterated.

"Obliterating" meaning incineration, vapourisation, what? And how big are those? Keep in mind that we are talking about a Star Wars warship with a volume of many hundreds of cubic kilometres.

Let's take "cutting apart violently" as a lower limit. And let's take a Warhound Scout Titan as another lower limit (there are no smaller titans).
That still means that a Psyker can destroy a 20m tall machine of war.

Now, if we consider that we have seen demonhosts melt Warlord Titans (IIRC) which are about 2.5 times as high and much more voluminous, and that Demonhosts are not way more powerfull as Alpha+ psykers - well, they propably could damage a Star Destroyer if they are in range.

Also, consider that 40K-shields actually protect against psypowers - and that even a Warhound's shield can withstand at least kilotons of firepower (if not megatons). Which means that your average Alpa+psyker can dish out kilotons of firepower at least as a lower limit - and way more if we are talking about a Reaver or Warlord Battletitan).

Edit: scratch the "40m"-figure, that was for a Reaver - i was talking about a Warhound, which is about 20 high.

[Serafina]

5) The Jedi Order, the largest group of Force users in the galaxy, at its height can barely crack double digit thousands and many of their members aren't that powerful.

For the absolute high-end Wars Force-user number, the DESB and derived sources speak of Palpatine planning to replace the Imperial government ministers and planetary governors with his Dark Side Adepts, who then presumably must have numbered at least in the millions. The source still indicates that most of them would have been on the weak end of the spectrum, and even so their numbers probably do not match those of 40k. Still, it is notable that the Empire appears to have fielded more Force adepts than the Jedi at their height, what with Adepts, Inquisitorius, Sovereign Protectors, Prophets of the Dark Side and all.

Dark Forces: Jedi Knight names Lord Kaan's Brotherhood of Darkness (a group of pseudo-Sith/fallen Jedi) to have numbered ~20,000 at their height. THe death of ~2,000 of them and an equivalent number of Jedi to a thought bomb created the Valley on Ruusan.

Are Acolytes stated to be force-sensitive?

Well, let's take them as force-sensitives.
Admit it, your average untrained force-sensitve is not impressive. At best, they seem to be able to move small items and have some minor foresight. That's not something very impressive, nor is it usefull in battle.
(i am assuming Anakin in EP I here, even if he was the "chosen one").

______________________________________________________________________________________________________
Ghetto-Edit-Edit regarding the Warhound: Warhounds weight 412 tons, Reavers 738 tons and Warlords about 1.5-2 times that number (making it between 1080 and 1500 tons).

[Darth Hoth]

Dark Side Adepts are described as Force-sensitive (minorly, most of them) with varying degrees of training by Palpatine and/or his higher-ranking flunkies. It is implied that most are comparatively weak; then again, the Sovereign Protectors (of which Carnor Jax was an example - minor TK abilities and kick-ass fighting skills perhaps on par with your "average combat Jedi") were noted as inferior to them and training under them.

[Imperial Overlord]

Acolytes are Force sensitive. Whatever Palpatine's ambitions with regard to recruiting and training Dark Side adepts (did he mean to replace every planetary governor or only the important ones? How long term was the goal? Did he plan to swell the number of Force users by by policies that favored the growth of groups with high numbers of Force Sensitives in their populations?), that still doesn't change the fact that even large scale SW Force user organizations don't break the low double digit thousands in terms of number.

[NecronLord]

How so? Dorsk 81 died using that much Force. Why should it be different for Jerec?

Oh yes, why sould a pseudo-Sith Lord be able to accomplish more than a random apprentice?

If there's only one way for him to survive? Is to become something similar to Darth Nihilus, who happens to be more armor than man.

Or through the theory that one can create life with the force. This would be quite sufficient to prevent dying.

[Darth Hoth]

EDIT: Reply to Imperial Overlord

I do not presently have the actual DESB article on hand. Here is what A Guide to the Star Wars Universe (Third Edition) has to say on the subject of "Dark Side Adepts":

. . . [Palpatine] began to train men of great intelligence who demonstrated some ability to use the Force. He twisted them to the dark side, turning them into powerful Force users. These adepts served the Emperor's will, and he planned to eventually disperse them throughout the galaxy, to replace the planetary governors.

I suppose you can take "eventually" to mean the distant future, but to me it looks as though he actually had the people to do this (or a significant percentage of them) around already at the time.

[Imperial Overlord]

EDIT: Reply to Imperial Overlord

I do not presently have the actual DESB article on hand. Here is what A Guide to the Star Wars Universe (Third Edition) has to say on the subject of "Dark Side Adepts":

. . . [Palpatine] began to train men of great intelligence who demonstrated some ability to use the Force. He twisted them to the dark side, turning them into powerful Force users. These adepts served the Emperor's will, and he planned to eventually disperse them throughout the galaxy, to replace the planetary governors.

I suppose you can take "eventually" to mean the distant future, but to me it looks as though he actually had the people to do this (or a significant percentage of them) around already at the time.

He did plan on being immortal so "eventually" can mean a very long time. It does indicate that he had started, but even long term projects never get finished if you don't start sometime. "Some ability to use the Force" is another nicely vague phrase when you consider that there are whole species like the Miraluka who have "some ability to use the Force", but don't produce armies of Jedi.

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

Oh yes, why sould a pseudo-Sith Lord be able to accomplish more than a random apprentice?

Since when is Force skill any correlation to one's body being able to tolerate sheer power of the use of the Force? Flesh can only take so much power, and even the Emperor couldn't take too much of it.

Or through the theory that one can create life with the force. This would be quite sufficient to prevent dying.

And the Dark Side is known for creating life beyond corrupting it? Sure, some Siths have acquired the ability to preserve their flesh, but they are few in the number and hell knows if they do so via using the Force in controlled intensity, rather than obliterating suns with the flick of a finger, or consuming all life on a planet.

[NecronLord]

Since when is Force skill any correlation to one's body being able to tolerate sheer power of the use of the Force? Flesh can only take so much power, and even the Emperor couldn't take too much of it.

And Jerec Ascendant was outright stated to have become omniscient during developing the power talked about. The Emperor's knowledge of its ways is insignificant in comparison, orders of magnitude less.

Ultimately, all of Jerec's pupils were killed by the Jedi Kyle Katarn, but the price was worth the reward. Jerec at last gained access to the valley, and for one lucid moment, absolute omniscience was his. The will of the Force, Chaos, the ancient civilizations of the Rakata and Xim, what lay beyond the galactic barrier, and the origins of the universe - - Jerec understood them all, and endowed with Force powers beyond imagination, he would have ruled accordingly.

And the Dark Side is known for creating life beyond corrupting it? Sure, some Siths have acquired the ability to preserve their flesh, but they are few in the number and hell knows if they do so via using the Force in controlled intensity, rather than obliterating suns with the flick of a finger, or consuming all life on a planet.

And their power and knowledge is childlike in comparison.

[PainRack]

Painrack, all psychic powers draw from the warp, but not all warp powers are psychic abilities (such as sorcery, daemonic abilities, or warp cannons). Please, for the love of the Emperor, don't misuse the language.

I'm trying to differentiate between two seperate concepts. Common pyschic powers such as telepathy, communication and etc are different from physical manifestation of the warp in terms of pyromancy and etc afterall.

As it is, I'm not abusing the language that badly since the Imperium does differentiate between warp sorcercy and pyschic talents.

Pyromancy is canonically one of the most common psychic abilities, so

And I will argue in terms of story bias. When the main character/villian is a pysker, he develop pyromancy and other lightning/physical based attacks.

When they aren't, their powers fade away significantly.

This gets worse once we consider the backstory of Wh40k.

1) There are billions of Imperial astropaths alone and a renegade inquisitor can acquire over a hundred alpha plus psykers

A "rare" incident. If gathering a hundred alpha plus psykers is "common", then the Shadowlight and its effect of warp sorcercy would not be considered so odd or valuable in Duty Calls.

2) You can fry a man's mind with telepathy (astropath's specialty) and they aren't restricted to telepathy

I'm not arguing that Imperial pyskers don't have telepathic powers.

3) Pyrokinetic and telekinetic abilities are common among the psyker population

Telekinetic is common. Pyrokinetic?

6) 40K grossly outnumbers SW when it comes to numbers of powerful combat mage types

And my contention is that 40k outnumbers SW. My contention is that the Imperium doesn't have that many pyskers that it can actually gather enough psykers to make this a powerful combat multiplyer against the CIS.
ESPECIALLY in lieu of the other threats facing the Imperium.
Well, actually, the basis of my op was to contend shroom argument that such manifestations of warp sorcercy and the Imperium has a high density of combat capable psykers.

[Shroom Man 777]

I just think that the density of combat capable psykers is higher, at least, than that of combat capable Jedi/Force users.

A "rare" incident. If gathering a hundred alpha plus psykers is "common", then the Shadowlight and its effect of warp sorcercy would not be considered so odd or valuable in Duty Calls.

It's not common. But it shows that a single time, such powerful psykers can number in the hundreds. While Jedi/Sith of such caliber don't occur in such numbers.

The Shadowlight and its effects on warp sorcery would be odd and valuable because a.) it would not require a rogue Inquisitor to steal high-value targets such as alpha plus psykers and b.) even the lowest-grade psyker could have his powers boosted significantly, allowing the shadowlight's user access to an enormous number of potentially powerful psykers "mass produced" (or mass enhanced) through "artificial" means rather than a limited number of difficult to acquire "naturally occurring" alpha plus psykers.

Hrm.. on a separate note... just how different is the shadowlight in the Cain books from the wraithbone in the Scourge the Heretic/Innocence Proves Nothing novels?

[Serafina]

Painrack, all psychic powers draw from the warp, but not all warp powers are psychic abilities (such as sorcery, daemonic abilities, or warp cannons). Please, for the love of the Emperor, don't misuse the language.

I'm trying to differentiate between two seperate concepts. Common pyschic powers such as telepathy, communication and etc are different from physical manifestation of the warp in terms of pyromancy and etc afterall.

As it is, I'm not abusing the language that badly since the Imperium does differentiate between warp sorcercy and pyschic talents.

That is because they are different things.
Someone without psychic talent can learn warp sorcery. We do not know it's exact mechanism, but it is essentially a way to channel warp energies trough specific rituals instead of ones mind.

Meanwhile, telepathy, pyrokinetics, telekinetics etc. all have different effects, but they all use the same basic process - psychic powers.

Again:
Warp Sorcery and psychic powers are not the same thing.

Pyromancy is canonically one of the most common psychic abilities, so

And I will argue in terms of story bias. When the main character/villian is a pysker, he develop pyromancy and other lightning/physical based attacks.

When they aren't, their powers fade away significantly.

This gets worse once we consider the backstory of Wh40k.

Well - we DO know how easy it is to learn certain psychic disciplines. Pyrokinetics is one of the easiest disciplines, while e.g. Biomancy is one of the most complex ones.
Note that this is not a strict limitation - rather, it is an actual learning process. Pyrokinetics are just easier to learn.

1) There are billions of Imperial astropaths alone and a renegade inquisitor can acquire over a hundred alpha plus psykers

A "rare" incident. If gathering a hundred alpha plus psykers is "common", then the Shadowlight and its effect of warp sorcercy would not be considered so odd or valuable in Duty Calls.

No one said it is common.
However, they can not be too rare, otherwise, a individual with limited resources could not gather a hundred of them.

2) You can fry a man's mind with telepathy (astropath's specialty) and they aren't restricted to telepathy

I'm not arguing that Imperial pyskers don't have telepathic powers.

And they are more powerfull than SW-telepathics, since mindraping is very common for telepathy-specialised psykers, while it is not for SW-force users.

3) Pyrokinetic and telekinetic abilities are common among the psyker population

Telekinetic is common. Pyrokinetic?

As i said - it is not a limitation.
Psykers may have a specific talent for one or the other discipline, but that does not mean they can not learn something else. You may have a talent for math, but that does not mean that you can not learn biology, too.
Similary, a psyker may have a talent for biomancy, but he may learn telepathy instead.

Pyrokinetics is quite common, since it is usefull in combat and easy to learn.

6) 40K grossly outnumbers SW when it comes to numbers of powerful combat mage types

And my contention is that 40k outnumbers SW. My contention is that the Imperium doesn't have that many pyskers that it can actually gather enough psykers to make this a powerful combat multiplyer against the CIS.
ESPECIALLY in lieu of the other threats facing the Imperium.
Well, actually, the basis of my op was to contend shroom argument that such manifestations of warp sorcercy and the Imperium has a high density of combat capable psykers.

They do not have to "gather" them. They already have them. As a psyker, you are either in hiding, on a Black ship, or working for the Imperium.

But yes, psykers will only play a minor role. But they WILL play that role.

[Imperial Overlord]

Painrack, all psychic powers draw from the warp, but not all warp powers are psychic abilities (such as sorcery, daemonic abilities, or warp cannons). Please, for the love of the Emperor, don't misuse the language.

I'm trying to differentiate between two seperate concepts. Common pyschic powers such as telepathy, communication and etc are different from physical manifestation of the warp in terms of pyromancy and etc afterall.

As it is, I'm not abusing the language that badly since the Imperium does differentiate between warp sorcercy and pyschic talents.

You are horribly mangling the concepts. Sorcery is similar to psychic powers in results (warp energy manifesting in the material universe) but very different in execution (strong personal connection to the warp versus calling on warp entities to aid you and/or doing actions in the material universe that will draw warp energy across. Sorcery can also be used to boost a psyker's abilities, at the cost of increased risk). Manifesting telepathic abilities can have strong telekinetic side effects, for example, because all psychic powers function by drawing on warp energy. Thus a telepathic duel can throw around so much energy that nearby cars explode. It's fine to distinguish between abilities that are direct combat powers like blades of TK force or defensive shields and less flashy abilities like divination, but they all deal in manifesting warp energy in the physical universe.

And I will argue in terms of story bias. When the main character/villian is a pysker, he develop pyromancy and other lightning/physical based attacks.

When they aren't, their powers fade away significantly.

This gets worse once we consider the backstory of Wh40k.

What the fuck is this bullshit? You can't hand wave away the canonical background material of the setting by saying "story bias", as if that meant something. First, you haven't provided any evidence to support your nonexistent point. Second, I'm talking about the source book material that explicitly states that pyromancy is one of the most common abilities (Inquisitor, Dark Heresy).

A "rare" incident. If gathering a hundred alpha plus psykers is "common", then the Shadowlight and its effect of warp sorcercy would not be considered so odd or valuable in Duty Calls.

It absolutely proves that psykers and high level psykers are far more common than Force Usera and high powered Force Users in SW. Your strawman of my position that I'm arguing that army enslaving alpha plus psykers grow on trees doesn't enter into it at all. Shadowlight creates psykers and amplifies existing talents tremendously. Psyker's aren't common in 40K and are quite valuable, but in comparison skilled Force Users are ridiculously rare in SW.

3) Pyrokinetic and telekinetic abilities are common among the psyker population

Telekinetic is common. Pyrokinetic?

Yep. One of the most commonly occurring abilities according to the source material, even more so than TK (although pyrokinesis usually [but not always] called pyromancy.) (Inquisitor, Dark Heresy)

6) 40K grossly outnumbers SW when it comes to numbers of powerful combat mage types

And my contention is that 40k outnumbers SW. My contention is that the Imperium doesn't have that many pyskers that it can actually gather enough psykers to make this a powerful combat multiplyer against the CIS.
ESPECIALLY in lieu of the other threats facing the Imperium.
Well, actually, the basis of my op was to contend shroom argument that such manifestations of warp sorcercy and the Imperium has a high density of combat capable psykers.[/quote]

The Jedi clearly made a difference in the Clone Wars and the IoM can field far more psykers than the Republic could Jedi and that many of them will be power houses compared to Jedi. Fire killed battledroids nicely and, as has been mentioned, pyromancy is fucking common. Telepathy, TK, divination, biomancy, etcetera all have their place as well. As to who would win, I'm not commenting. I'm just saying the Imperium can bring useful psykers in sufficient numbers to matter.

[hongi]

The CIS are already coming off the end of a long and brutal war, and are, as per the OP, politically fragmented - and they have a galaxy-sized DMZ to keep an eye on. I doubt that the logistic advantage typically granted to Star Wars applies, here.

On the other hand, they don't have Sidious meddling with the war and playing both sides off each other. I feel quite safe in saying that without Palpatine's interference, the war could have dragged out for a LOT longer.

If they manage to finish the Ultimate Weapon in a couple of years, what difference would it make?

[PainRack]

You are horribly mangling the concepts. Sorcery is similar to psychic powers in results (warp energy manifesting in the material universe) but very different in execution (strong personal connection to the warp versus calling on warp entities to aid you and/or doing actions in the material universe that will draw warp energy across. Sorcery can also be used to boost a psyker's abilities, at the cost of increased risk). Manifesting telepathic abilities can have strong telekinetic side effects, for example, because all psychic powers function by drawing on warp energy. Thus a telepathic duel can throw around so much energy that nearby cars explode. It's fine to distinguish between abilities that are direct combat powers like blades of TK force or defensive shields and less flashy abilities like divination, but they all deal in manifesting warp energy in the physical universe.

So, what terms would be better? Warp sorcercy vs pyschic powers?

What the fuck is this bullshit? You can't hand wave away the canonical background material of the setting by saying "story bias", as if that meant something. First, you haven't provided any evidence to support your nonexistent point. Second, I'm talking about the source book material that explicitly states that pyromancy is one of the most common abilities (Inquisitor, Dark Heresy).

What about lack of evidence? We seldom see members of the Choir, telepaths assigned to the Adminstration manifest such powers.
And quoting sourcebooks that discuss the type of psykers that will manifest such stories is a perfectly good example of story bias. The RPGs will lean towards psykers manifesting combat powers for PC as well as villian NPC. The bog standard pysker maintaining communications between Tallarn and Ultramar is left out.

It absolutely proves that psykers and high level psykers are far more common than Force Usera and high powered Force Users in SW. Your strawman of my position that I'm arguing that army enslaving alpha plus psykers grow on trees doesn't enter into it at all. Shadowlight creates psykers and amplifies existing talents tremendously. Psyker's aren't common in 40K and are quite valuable, but in comparison skilled Force Users are ridiculously rare in SW.

EXCUSE ME. You're STRAWMANNING MY POSITION.
My OP was with regards to Shroom post where a significant portion of the Black ship harvest are made up of combat ready psykers, and his follow up post on how no name pyskers can manifest fireballs, lightning and etc on the battlefield.
My rebuttal is that this isn't true. The majority of the Black Ship harvest isn't made up of Gamma,Delta or Alpha psykers. They're made up of pyskers who either be fed to the Emperor or utilised for adminstrative roles and will not exhibit warp scorcery.
A secondary point was that with regards to useful Imperium pyskers, high level pyskers powers should be using Chief Librarians as the gauge as they're more reliable tools of the Imperium that other alpha plus psykers.
When asked to elaborate my stance regarding the OP SW vs 40k, my contention was that due to the relative scarcity of psykers, the Imperium will be unable to concentrate sufficiently large numbers of pyskers to make a difference in battle.

Yep. One of the most commonly occurring abilities according to the source material, even more so than TK (although pyrokinesis usually [but not always] called pyromancy.) (Inquisitor, Dark Heresy)

Then give an explaination why in a goodly number of the stories, the common pyskers assigned to the Imperial governer and etc fail to manifest pyromancy.

The Jedi clearly made a difference in the Clone Wars and the IoM can field far more psykers than the Republic could Jedi and that many of them will be power houses compared to Jedi.

Except the Jedi influence on the battlefield was not due to their actual Force Powers.
Seriously, outside of Mace Windu who kungfued several hundred battledroids, the Jedi don't crush hundreds and thousands of battledroids via the use of Force Push or other force powers. They're useful in special op roles, but even here, their utility rests more in their training combined with Force enhanced reflexes and etc. Inquisition pyskers and several other exception aside, the Imperium doesn't use pyskers for commando purposes. Or to rally troops and provide leadership.There is the issue of precognition.

Hell, to replace the Jedi, just simply subsitute Space Marines. Their heavy armour more than compensate for the Jedi lightsabre deflection of blasters and their reflexes and etc are on par of most Jedi onscreen performance. Throw in training and tactics in actual commando training as opposed to the Jedi SWAT mentality and they're arguably superior to the Jedi. At most, Space Marines don't lead Imperium armies as generals.... and this is due to Imperium doctrine and doctrination.

Fire killed battledroids nicely and, as has been mentioned, pyromancy is fucking common. Telepathy, TK, divination, biomancy, etcetera all have their place as well. As to who would win, I'm not commenting. I'm just saying the Imperium can bring useful psykers in sufficient numbers to matter.

And my argument is that they won't. Any effect general psykers has on the battlefield against the CIS is relatively insignificant when compared to Imperium arms. The Imperium can't concentrate sufficient high level pyskers on the battlefield to meet the CIS. They can't do so against the Tau, they won't be able to do so against the CIS. Afterall, as a relative threat level, the CIS is on par with the Tau.

[fgalkin]

I'm trying to differentiate between two seperate concepts. Common pyschic powers such as telepathy, communication and etc are different from physical manifestation of the warp in terms of pyromancy and etc afterall.

No they're not. That is why you have ice forming on surfaces as a common side effect of psychic powers- a psyker could be trying to read someone's mind, and yet the material world would be affected by the warp. Which make sense, considering that to use psychic powers, a psyker is opening a conduit to the warp. If anything, pure "telepathy" is much rarer than physical manifestations.

As it is, I'm not abusing the language that badly since the Imperium does differentiate between warp sorcercy and pyschic talents.

Warp sorcery is a completely different thing entirely- it's trying to deliberately weaken the fabric of reality to open a conduit to the warp- trying to imitate the effect of psychic powers without using them. The effects of warp sorcery and psyker powers are very similar, it's the methods that are different. You've got it all backwards.

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

[Serafina]

The Jedi clearly made a difference in the Clone Wars and the IoM can field far more psykers than the Republic could Jedi and that many of them will be power houses compared to Jedi.

Except the Jedi influence on the battlefield was not due to their actual Force Powers.
Seriously, outside of Mace Windu who kungfued several hundred battledroids, the Jedi don't crush hundreds and thousands of battledroids via the use of Force Push or other force powers. They're useful in special op roles, but even here, their utility rests more in their training combined with Force enhanced reflexes and etc. Inquisition pyskers and several other exception aside, the Imperium doesn't use pyskers for commando purposes. Or to rally troops and provide leadership.There is the issue of precognition.

Yes, psykers are not commonly used for commando purposes. They are used as force multipliers, similar to support weapons.

However, Jedi were ALSO used in that manners. Heck, they explicitly were the commanders of clones. SpecOps don't command normal soldiers, even if they are better fighters.
So, why were they employed as commanders? Simple, they could take out unexpected threads (as can psykers), they can guide their troops with precognition (as can psykers), they can protect them with their lightsabers (which psykers can do with various powers) and they have a a certain fame and prestige wich is good for moral (also true for psykers, even if they are despised).

In fact, the Imperium (and other 40K races) employs it's psykers smarter than the Repbulic used their Jedi.
They are assigned on a command level, because their precognition/telepathy is most usefull there.
They are not used as living shields (jedi, tough they were protected by their lightsabers), but rather normally well-protected.
Even purely offensive psykers are held back to be employed in critical situations, which makes them hihly-effective combat reserves.

Hell, to replace the Jedi, just simply subsitute Space Marines. Their heavy armour more than compensate for the Jedi lightsabre deflection of blasters and their reflexes and etc are on par of most Jedi onscreen performance. Throw in training and tactics in actual commando training as opposed to the Jedi SWAT mentality and they're arguably superior to the Jedi. At most, Space Marines don't lead Imperium armies as generals.... and this is due to Imperium doctrine and doctrination.

Actually, they did during the Horus Heresy. However, it was found that Space Marines tend to overestaminate their non-augmented subordinates, and that they were held back by them. Which also holds true IRL for special forces, tough obviously to a smaller extent.
Similar things apply to the Jedi/Clone relationship. Notably, a lot of the commando operations were undertaken solely by Jedi, with no clone support, even if it would have been readily avaiable. Not only does this leave the clones without their commanders, but it also shows that the skills of the Jedi are wasted in the role they are normally employed in.

[Imperial Overlord]

[
So, what terms would be better? Warp sorcercy vs pyschic powers?

As I said, you're drawing a difference that doesn't exist. All psychic powers draw on the warp.

What about lack of evidence? We seldom see members of the Choir, telepaths assigned to the Adminstration manifest such powers.
And quoting sourcebooks that discuss the type of psykers that will manifest such stories is a perfectly good example of story bias. The RPGs will lean towards psykers manifesting combat powers for PC as well as villian NPC. The bog standard pysker maintaining communications between Tallarn and Ultramar is left out.

Canon background material trumps your erroneous flailing. Dark Heresy starting characters can only manifest minor psychic powers, so not only are you trying to substitute your personal opinion for canon, you're arguing from a position that doesn't exist.

My OP was with regards to Shroom post where a significant portion of the Black ship harvest are made up of combat ready psykers, and his follow up post on how no name pyskers can manifest fireballs, lightning and etc on the battlefield.

Lots of psykers can, many can't. Alpha pluses, for example, are so fucking dangerous that they usually are killed instead taken aboard the Black Ships because they're almost too powerful to manage safely. Other guys are shmucks.

My rebuttal is that this isn't true. The majority of the Black Ship harvest isn't made up of Gamma,Delta or Alpha psykers.

That's true, but you don't have to be Delta to do a fuckload of damage. Delta is really fucking powerful.

They're made up of pyskers who either be fed to the Emperor or utilised for adminstrative roles and will not exhibit warp scorcery.

Again, you're confusing your biases for fact. Many will be fed to the Emperor, burn out maintaining the Astronomicon, or end up being relatively weak functionaries. Many others won't

And again you horribly misused the term sorcery. I know I've said this a bunch of times, but you keep on failing to comprehend it. There isn't a magic line between those who can fry people and those who can't. With the right gifts and training, even a minor psyker can turn a fairly large number of people into ash. On the other hand, if a psyker's talents are only healing and divination, he's not going to be able to wrack up a similarly powerful pyromancer's body count (but could be even more useful if used right). Astropaths use a lot of warp energy to send messages. Any of them who have offensive TK or telepathic gifts have plenty of strength to fuck someone up.

A secondary point was that with regards to useful Imperium pyskers, high level pyskers powers should be using Chief Librarians as the gauge as they're more reliable tools of the Imperium that other alpha plus psykers.

The Imperium rarely uses alpha pluses as they tend to be hard to capture for the Black Ships. I tend to use Gamma as a personal benchmark of really high powered(Chief Librarians tend to be on the strong side and are experienced leaders, but they vary in talents and power). Primaris combat psykers (IG Sanctioned Psyker field officers) are scary mother fuckers and they aren't the equals of Chief Librarians. Gamma is heinous, where the excess warp energy from when they go all out can send cars flying as a secondary effect and that was from a telepathic duel.

Then give an explaination why in a goodly number of the stories, the common pyskers assigned to the Imperial governer and etc fail to manifest pyromancy.

1) There are billions of psykers. Many millions of them won't be pyromancers and the sample size from stories is tiny.
2) How do you know they aren't pyromancers? They won't be using pyromancy when they're trying to probe someone's mind or trying to find a warp disturbance. It's not a power it is wise to invoke carelessly.

The Jedi clearly made a difference in the Clone Wars and the IoM can field far more psykers than the Republic could Jedi and that many of them will be power houses compared to Jedi.

Except the Jedi influence on the battlefield was not due to their actual Force Powers.
Seriously, outside of Mace Windu who kungfued several hundred battledroids, the Jedi don't crush hundreds and thousands of battledroids via the use of Force Push or other force powers. They're useful in special op roles, but even here, their utility rests more in their training combined with Force enhanced reflexes and etc. Inquisition pyskers and several other exception aside, the Imperium doesn't use pyskers for commando purposes. Or to rally troops and provide leadership.There is the issue of precognition.
[/quote]
Actually it does. Senior sanctioned psykers act as advisers to IG leadership and have command authority on the battlefield. As mentioned, psykers are much more powerful than most Jedi. The Jedi use their Force powers to protect themselves while leading spec op missions and fighting from the front lines, as well as helping guide their decisions. The Clone Wars cartoons are full of the Jedi using the Force to help them overcome obstacles and enhance their chances of success while leading armies. A few at the right place can produce an enormous concentration of power and effort, just as with any other high value military unit. Then there's the issue of the Inquisition and Marine Librarians who do that shit all the time.

Hell, to replace the Jedi, just simply subsitute Space Marines. Their heavy armour more than compensate for the Jedi lightsabre deflection of blasters and their reflexes and etc are on par of most Jedi onscreen performance. Throw in training and tactics in actual commando training as opposed to the Jedi SWAT mentality and they're arguably superior to the Jedi. At most, Space Marines don't lead Imperium armies as generals.... and this is due to Imperium doctrine and doctrination.

Space Marines have no compunction about taking over command of a war zone if they think its warranted.

Any effect general psykers has on the battlefield against the CIS is relatively insignificant when compared to Imperium arms. The Imperium can't concentrate sufficient high level pyskers on the battlefield to meet the CIS. They can't do so against the Tau, they won't be able to do so against the CIS. Afterall, as a relative threat level, the CIS is on par with the Tau.

Are you kidding? The ability to shatter vehicles, control the weather, predict the enemy's moves, mind rape captives for information, shut down technology, and fry battledroids en masse is irrelevant? The Tau have dozens of worlds and maybe the population of one large hive world. The CIS has tens of thousands of worlds. Do you have any evidence that the Imperium has never made a significant amount of psyker support for any campaign against the Tau?

[Serafina]

Now, let's consider a battle were we see a lot of Jedi in action, as opposed to just a one or two.
The Battle of Geonosis comes to mind, where about 200 Jedi were employed.


First, let's consider the objectives of the battle:
-Rescue the prisoned Anakin, Obi-Wan and Padme
-Prevent the Seperatists from escaping

The destruction of the droid army was presumably not an actual objective, rather, it was necessary to reach the other goals.

Given that the Republic only achieved one of their goals, we can, at best, call this a draw. However, since achieving the second goal would have prevented the Clone Wars, i think we can file the outcome of the battle as a loss for the Republic.

Avaiable forces:
The Republic employed an initial strike team of about 200 Jedi. Also, they have reserves arriving shortly thereafter - actually, all of their army at that time.

Now, the Imperiums Forces. Let's assume that the initial strikeforce is also from a psyker-organisation.
However, there is no conveiable szenario where only psykers would be employed. Therefore, the strikeforce would also contain Strom Troopers and perhaps also Sisters of Silence (similar to the Sororitas, but blanks).
I propose a group of 50 low-level combat psykers, 20 highly-trained combat psykers and 5 alpha-psykers (standing in for the named jedi), in addition to 25 Sisters of Silence and 100 Storm Troopers.

The reinforcements would consist of several imperial guard regiments, along with several Space Marines (standing in for the Clone Commandos) and propably a small element of a Titan legion.

Opposing forces:
About 10.000 battledroids in the arena, and a total of ~1.5 million battledroids in the later battle.

Now, how would the Imperium fare here?

The arena is quite a deadly battleground - overwhelming forces and almost no cover.
However, let's start at the beginning.
In the original battle, the Jedi take their stands at the viewer ranks of the arena, while Mace Windu is sent to deal with Dooku. There appears little reason why the Imperiums strikeforce would be unable of dubplicating that feat.
However, they would not need to go down into the arena to fight - all they have to do is get their comnrades out there.
Given the avaibilty of teleportation/warp gates (and the number of avaiable psykers), this could be quickly accomplished.

Now, against the overwhelming enemy numbers, they would still have to put up a fight.
But unlike the Jedi, they have
-cover on the viewing ranks of the arena
-acces to actual ranged weapons from the stormtroopers
-acces to a wide range of psy-powers, which can destroy a large number of droids and shape the battlefield in their favour.
Given these factors, it seems quite likely that they can hold out until the reinforcements arrive, with fewer casualties.

Now, another important factor here is the attempted capture of the seperatist leaders, especially Count Dooku.
Now, the Imperium does not tend to dally with their enemies (especially traitors), so it is quite likely that they would shoot and do not ask questions later.
But who would they send to capture them?
Well, we have two options:
-The Sisters of Silence, who are specifically trained to deal with rogue psykers, and are not detectable by psypower (and therefore the force, similar to Ylamismari).
-A single Alpha-Psyker, assuming that there was a reason why they only sent Mace Windu.

The Sisters of Silence could quickly overwhelm Count Dooko. They would not dally with talking to him, and they could acutally surprise him, given that he can not detect them with the force. They could simply employ flamethrowers or anti-psi grenades to overwhelm Dooku. Furthermore, it is possible that they would deploy Assault Sisters for that mission, which employ Terminator Armor and the typical weapons for those (Heavy Flamers, Assault Cannons and Cyclone Missile Launchers), in addition to psycannons.
Similary, an Alpha Psyker would be able to overwhelm Dooku with vastly superior offensive capabilities (i think these have been sufficiently demonstrated). He is also well-protected from any counterattacks, including the attackin B2-droids - even a refractor field could withstand a few hits from a lightsaber with ease, not to speak of more powerfull forcefields.

Now, if the events unfold like that, the actual battle after that is largely irrelevant - for all purposes, it could devolve into a trench war. The leadership of the Seperatitst is dead or imprisoned, and the prisoners are rescued. Destroying the droid armies and their factories is mostly irrelevant, since they lack the leadership to employ them.

[Darth Hoth]

I will again note that Geonosis is a bad example if one is looking for "typical" Jedi performance, given that the Jedi there were a) mostly sedentary ones from the Temple, on the order of archivists and librarians - the very opposite of military specialists, and b) suffering from the Shroud of the Dark Side diminishing their powers. At best it is a lower-end example.

Ysalamiri are not undetectable by the Force - in fact, their "anti-Force bubble" effect stands out like a red sheet to Force-enhanced senses. If a blank is taken to work similarly, they would be easily discovered (although not necessarily easily fought). It is also questionable whether a blank is analogous to one; I would rather compare them to the Vong (who are more difficult, although not impossible, to detect).

[Serafina]

I will again note that Geonosis is a bad example if one is looking for "typical" Jedi performance, given that the Jedi there were a) mostly sedentary ones from the Temple, on the order of archivists and librarians - the very opposite of military specialists, and b) suffering from the Shroud of the Dark Side diminishing their powers. At best it is a lower-end example.

Ysalamiri are not undetectable by the Force - in fact, their "anti-Force bubble" effect stands out like a red sheet to Force-enhanced senses. If a blank is taken to work similarly, they would be easily discovered (although not necessarily easily fought). It is also questionable whether a blank is analogous to one; I would rather compare them to the Vong (who are more difficult, although not impossible, to detect).

Geonosis may be a sub-par performance. However, that only shows that the Jedi-order contains a large number of bad combatants. Also, they had at least a couple of Jedi Masters (8 according to Wookiepedia).
It might not be unreasonble to assume that a couple of Space Marine Termiantors would have taken that battle.
By that logic, a Terminator is more powerfull than a Jedi Master (and we are talking about capable combatants here).

Regarding Blanks:
Blanks are not detectable by warp-based measures (which include various technologies). Hence my assumption that they are not detectable by force-means either.
However, they also block warp-based abilities. When they arer in blocking range, they are detected.

[Darth Hoth]

How does it prove that the Jedi have large numbers of bad combatants when most of the sample for that battle was cherry-picked from the least combat-capable segment of the Order? Two hundred administrators from the central Temple are hardly representative of tens of thousands of capable field operatives. Their role is passive exactly because their powers are best suited for that (or in plain language, weak - just look at Tionne in the new Jedi Order).

The demonstrated powers of higher-ranking Masters are definitely in excess of what was observed on Geonosis. The disparity between the performance of Windu, Kenobi, et al there and elsewhere is considerable. I am at a loss to explain this rationally in an in-universe fashion (out of universe, this is, of course, due to inconsistent writing by Lucas and his pets), but again, it might be related to the aforementioned Shroud of the Dark Side.