Question regarding canon-rules

[Sela]

So I finally had a chance to play KOTOR 2 and this idea came to me. According to the hierarchy of canon (as I understand it) we give the movies the highest credibility, then the books, then the other lucasfilm licensed merchandise/games - right?

So what's to stop a creative bastard from claiming infinite - or at the very least "arbitrarily high" energy capacity for Star Wars weaponry? In KOTOR a player can build a lightsaber, ignite it, and use observational evidence to show that it has an unrealistically large "battery" life. Or if you want to be even more technical, claim to decompile the EXE, and show how - per the game rules - it has an infinite energy capacity. Or you could claim that a Jedi can go for an arbitrarily long amount of time without needing to eat.

My point being that since this doesn't explicitly contradict higher canon, what plugs this loophole?

[Crazedwraith]

Game mechanics are not canon. Game storylines are, albiet very low.

Plus people do eat in the films; Dex's diner as an example.

[Havok]

People eat in Dex's diner. We see no Jedi eating there.
Seriously though, Anakin eats a few grubs in TCW, and with Padme in AOTC. Qui-Gon eats with Anakin and Shmi on Tattoine in TPM and Yoda eats with Luke on Dagobah. So the idea that anyone would claim that Jedi don't eat is ridiculous. However making the claim that they don't need to eat isn't quite as far fetched, (although logically, Jedi should need to eat far more often than a regular person to keep their energy levels up*) as the only times we see them eating is to facilitate something else and not because they were in need of it.

But yeah, what happens physically in the games themselves are crap as far as canon goes. If the story specifically cites something from game mechanics, then it becomes canon.

*IIRC, Jedi carry some sort of food/energy supplement in their Bat-Belts.

[Thraxis]

Further, if you look in any of the books such as Essential Guide to Weapons and Technology (C-Canon sources), they specifically detail that blasters have a limited number of shots per power pack. I think the rule of thumb is that game mechanics could be used for evidence to support some other conclusion, but are worth crap versus any other source.

[Stark]

Further, if you look in any of the books such as Essential Guide to Weapons and Technology (C-Canon sources), they specifically detail that blasters have a limited number of shots per power pack. I think the rule of thumb is that game mechanics could be used for evidence to support some other conclusion, but are worth crap versus any other source.

Some games go in the other direction, claiming blasters have quite small magazines and require constant reloading.

[Batman]

(although logically, Jedi should need to eat far more often than a regular person to keep their energy levels up*)

Err-why? Jedi DON'T do the incredible feats they do by burning a fuckton more calories than ordinary humans, they do them by directly drawing on the Force.

[NecronLord]

Useless trivia: For the record, the higher canon writeups suggest that lightsabers don't use much of their battery power unless hitting something, and that makes a good degree of sense; unless they're heating something, they're not doing much actual work; they don't give out as much light than a ten watt strip light in my kitchen, and supposedly don't heat the air around them much. They do exhaust of course, but only when actually doing damage do they deplete at a significant rate, but you can keep them turned on for an unspecified long time if you're just waving them about.

[Batman]

Further, if you look in any of the books such as Essential Guide to Weapons and Technology (C-Canon sources), they specifically detail that blasters have a limited number of shots per power pack. I think the rule of thumb is that game mechanics could be used for evidence to support some other conclusion, but are worth crap versus any other source.

Some games go in the other direction, claiming blasters have quite small magazines and require constant reloading.

I think we can happily ignore that as game mechanics given that those games ALSO will happily let you shove replacement magazines in wether you emptied the last one or not and have their capacity ADD UP as long as you don't exceed the maximum ammunition capacity
Okay, so that's THEORETICALLY feasible what with their canonically being ways to charge one power pack from another so maybe the maximum number of shots at default power levels for an E-11 power pack IS 500 shots, but one then wonders why EACH and EVERY replacement power pack you find is depleted to EXACTLY 15 shots...

[Stark]

But surely that's just the magazine using it's tibanna gas to refill the gun?

[Darth Fanboy]

(although logically, Jedi should need to eat far more often than a regular person to keep their energy levels up*)

Err-why? Jedi DON'T do the incredible feats they do by burning a fuckton more calories than ordinary humans, they do them by directly drawing on the Force.

I think Hav is saying that "logically" Jedi should consume more calories but he isn't necessarily implying that they do because in this case the Force defies logic.

[Batman]

@Stark
See the edit. And I don't think they ever mentioned tibanna being involved on the personal weapon scale? It would make sense, given that hand weapons seem to behave pretty much like starship ones, but I don't think that was ever actually stated. If it WAS then of course my bad.

[Batman]

I think Hav is saying that "logically" Jedi should consume more calories but he isn't necessarily implying that they do because in this case the Force defies logic.

There's NO WAY for Jedi to do the things they do by simply burning more calories than ordinary humans (no matter by how much). Thus, no, there's no reason to assume they do.

[Stark]

@Stark
See the edit. And I don't think they ever mentioned tibanna being involved on the personal weapon scale? It would make sense, given that hand weapons seem to behave pretty much like starship ones, but I don't think that was ever actually stated. If it WAS then of course my bad.

Heh. And I thought that was the EU explanation, if that was just the heavy weapons that's fine.

[Batman]

As I said it would make perfect sense. I just can't recall it ever actually being MENTIONED for smallarms.

[Darth Fanboy]

There's NO WAY for Jedi to do the things they do by simply burning more calories than ordinary humans (no matter by how much).

NOBODY is suggesting that.

Thus, no, there's no reason to assume they do.

Physically more powerful people do need to consume more calories because they expend more energy. So if a being is demonstrating physical prowess beyond the normal capability of an average member of their species it would be logical to guess that perhaps they have an increased energy requirement.

But given what we know about the Force we know that Jedi do not need to eat more. In this case we as third party observers with knowledge about the Force know that the seemingly logical conclusion is incorrect. If you weren't familiar with the nature of the Force however, it would be a reasonable theory.

[Bounty]

I'm pretty sure we see Jedi being physically exhausted from activity, so unless you want to claim that's Force Panting to cool down or something you have to accept that not all their god mode superpowers come through the magic of the Force.

[Havok]

(although logically, Jedi should need to eat far more often than a regular person to keep their energy levels up*)

Err-why? Jedi DON'T do the incredible feats they do by burning a fuckton more calories than ordinary humans, they do them by directly drawing on the Force.

Uh, then why do they move their legs at super speed when they run in TPM and not just levitate down the hallway? Why do Luke and Yoda both show physical exhaustion after lifting objects? Why was Qui-Gon exhausted after dueling with Maul on Tattooine?

I mean, seriously, you're a fucking idiot. You burn more calories just from walking faster than normal.

[Batman]

(although logically, Jedi should need to eat far more often than a regular person to keep their energy levels up*)

Err-why? Jedi DON'T do the incredible feats they do by burning a fuckton more calories than ordinary humans, they do them by directly drawing on the Force.

Uh, then why do they move their legs at super speed when they run in TPM and not just levitate down the hallway?

For some reason.

Why do Luke and Yoda both show physical exhaustion after lifting objects? Why was Qui-Gon exhausted after dueling with Maul on Tattooine?

Because, apparently, using the Force is physically exhaustive?

I mean, seriously, you're a fucking idiot. You burn more calories just from walking faster than normal.

We see Jedi do things that even if they were physically possible would require them to burn HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF TIMES the energy human biology is designed to handle but 'I' am the idiot for thinking they DON'T do it by eating like hogs.

[Darth Hoth]

I'm pretty sure we see Jedi being physically exhausted from activity, so unless you want to claim that's Force Panting to cool down or something you have to accept that not all their god mode superpowers come through the magic of the Force.

Or perhaps the tiredness is psychosomatic? Anyway, as Batman points out, the vast majority of the energy must come from an outside source, given the minimum requirements for many of the demonstrated feats.

Uh, then why do they move their legs at super speed when they run in TPM and not just levitate down the hallway?

Why do they so rarely use the Force to fly, when demonstrated onscreen telekinesis easily generates force in excess of 1G? For some arbitrary reason not explained to us (since we know it can logically be done, and have examples of it in the EU to boot). The fact remains that moving that fast by ground traction is physically impossible, so it must invariably come down to some use of TK.

[Bounty]

Or perhaps the tiredness is psychosomatic?

How does that make even a lick of sense?

[Darth Hoth]

That they think they ought to be tired, therefore they are, in spite of nothaving expended much energy of their own? As Yoda explained the force in tESB, it is foremost a matter of belief ("You must unlearn all that you have learnt" in order to lose the old limits on what is possible and what is not, and so forth).

[Havok]

That they think they ought to be tired, therefore they are, in spite of nothaving expended much energy of their own? As Yoda explained the force in tESB, it is foremost a matter of belief ("You must unlearn all that you have learnt" in order to lose the old limits on what is possible and what is not, and so forth).

Uh, really? So then why does Yoda, whom obviously subscribes to your theory, show the same exhaustion?

[Stofsk]

Which example are you referring to? In ESB, Luke can't lift his X-wing and collapses on the ground panting heavily. Yoda closes his eyes, moves the ship and doesn't display any signs of exhaustion. In AOTC Yoda effortlessly rebukes Dooku's force lightning attacks twice, again, showing no signs of exhaustion, and similarly in ROTS.

Physical conditioning is obviously very important for Jedi, otherwise Yoda wouldn't have gotten Luke to do all those athletic and acrobatic manoeuvres, but I don't know how that translates into them needing to eat more than normal people.

[Havok]

Which example are you referring to? In ESB, Luke can't lift his X-wing and collapses on the ground panting heavily. Yoda closes his eyes, moves the ship and doesn't display any signs of exhaustion.

Watch the movie again. After Yoda finishes lifting the X-Wing, he is visibly tired and sighs heavily. Whether this is physical or mental exhaustion can be debated, but clearly, there is a force exerted on the body from using the Force and it is NOT just 'hur hur, boy this should make me exhausted, therefore I am!' if Yoda is the one that knows that to be false as Hoth claims.

In AOTC Yoda effortlessly rebukes Dooku's force lightning attacks twice, again, showing no signs of exhaustion, and similarly in ROTS.

This is true, but at that point in time Yoda was in his peak, and presumably, had a well maintained lifestyle. There is no reason he should show exhaustion at these points, whereas on Dagobah, he was certainly not sitting in the lap of luxury, living off whatever he could find to make soup out of.

However, as I pointed out, Qui-Gon did show signs of being tired after dueling with Maul, while Maul showed little. (Maul being someone that maintains peak physical conditioning) I would assume, that using the Force to duel and such is physically more taxing then just running down the hallway or blocking blaster botls and that once the Sith reemerged, Jedi began preparing for the likelihood of a confrontation.

Physical conditioning is obviously very important for Jedi, otherwise Yoda wouldn't have gotten Luke to do all those athletic and acrobatic manoeuvres,

For the record... 'Ordinary', 'normal' humans, i.e. fat ass nerds and office workers i.e. us, are not what Jedi are. Jedi can easily be classified as World Class, Galactic Class even, athletes, and news flash, that level of physical activity DOES require far more energy to maintain.

but I don't know how that translates into them needing to eat more than normal people.

Oh really? An example.

Swimming sensation Michael Phelps has an Olympic recipe for success - and it involves eating a staggering 12,000 calories a day.

"Eat, sleep and swim. That's all I can do," Phelps, who won two more gold medals today, told NBC when asked what he needs to win medals. "Get some calories into my system and try to recover the best I can."

By comparison, the average man of the same age needs to ingest about 2,000 calories a day.

Phelps, 23, will swim 17 times over nine days of competition at the Beijing Games - meaning that he will need all the calories he can shovel in his mouth in order to keep his energy levels high.

Phelps' diet - which involves ingesting 4,000 calories every time he sits down for a meal - resembles that of a reckless overeater rather than an Olympian.

Phelps lends a new spin to the phrase "Breakfast of Champions" by starting off his day by eating three fried-egg sandwiches loaded with cheese, lettuce, tomatoes, fried onions and mayonnaise.

He follows that up with two cups of coffee, a five-egg omelet, a bowl of grits, three slices of French toast topped with powdered sugar and three chocolate-chip pancakes.

At lunch, Phelps gobbles up a pound of enriched pasta and two large ham and cheese sandwiches slathered with mayo on white bread - capping off the meal by chugging about 1,000 calories worth of energy drinks.

For dinner, Phelps really loads up on the carbs - what he needs to give him plenty of energy for his five-hours-a-day, six-days-a-week regimen - with a pound of pasta and an entire pizza.

He washes all that down with another 1,000 calories worth of energy drinks.

Phelps remains on course to at least equal Mark Spitz's record of seven gold medals won at the 1972 Munich Games.

At these Summer Games, a typical day for Phelps starts with a 5 a.m. wake-up call. Most of his races have taken place between 8 p.m. and 10 p.m. ET when in China - 12 hours ahead of East Coast time.

And he is just a swimmer.

[Ghost Rider]

To be honest Hav, we have no idea how to rate caloric intake if there is one. Let's take the free fall of Anakin. Literally thousands of Gs, and the most he gets is a slight wind punched out. To buffer this would need hundreds of thousands(and I am lowballing this) of calories. He not only has to make sure he doesn't splatter, he has to make sure the craft doesn't fly wildly off course due to impact as wel and there are even a few other factors involved. Yet Anakin doesn't think "Better suck down on an energy bar or hundred" afterwards. Really, there is more credence that it's a mental exhaustion, given the books do go into far more detail that using the Force is exhausting for the mind rather then the body.