SD+SB in Middle Earth

The Dark · Post by **The Dark** » 2003-02-14 01:20am

Another nasty boobytrap would work if we knew they were planning on laying siege to a place. What you'd do is dig small holes. Place one nail in each hole, then place a bullet on top of it (NOT a rimfire bullet). When something step on the tip of the bullet, it's forced down on the nail, causing the bullet to be fired from the ground, shattering the foot of whatever stepped on it. Simple, and effective. The VC have many lessons to teach.

Typhonis 1 · Post by **Typhonis 1** » 2003-02-14 01:23am

pity we dont have a large movie projector*L* imagine the orcs reaction to seeing Nemesis played on the side of a mountain near Helms Deep

The Dark · Post by **The Dark** » 2003-02-14 01:25am

Typhonis 1 wrote:pity we dont have a large movie projector*L* imagine the orcs reaction to seeing Nemesis played on the side of a mountain near Helms Deep

I'm pretty sure that would violate the Geneva Convention and get every civil rights organization in the multiverse on our back. I might be willing to deal with the White Hand, but the ACLU? No thanks.

Typhonis 1 · Post by **Typhonis 1** » 2003-02-14 01:26am

Forget them those groups wont be in Middle Earth to stop us

BlkbrryTheGreat · Post by **BlkbrryTheGreat** » 2003-02-14 01:31am

Darth Wong wrote:I can't imagine something much worse for Orc morale than the drifting clouds of gaseous death we had planned earlier.

I would only use that as a last resort, or if it posed no danger to us. Last I checked, we dont have any chemical warfare suits and Poison Gas isn't exatly the kind of stuff you wanna use unless your desperate; if the wind gusts the wrong way you could be screwed quite quickly. If we use Mustard Gas we could always piss on rags as a last resort, but I rather avoid the use of Gas all togehter if possible.

The Duchess of Zeon · Post by **The Duchess of Zeon** » 2003-02-14 02:07am

BlkbrryTheGreat wrote:
I would only use that as a last resort, or if it posed no danger to us. Last I checked, we dont have any chemical warfare suits and Poison Gas isn't exatly the kind of stuff you wanna use unless your desperate; if the wind gusts the wrong way you could be screwed quite quickly. If we use Mustard Gas we could always piss on rags as a last resort, but I rather avoid the use of Gas all togehter if possible.

You can build mortars with enough range that it won't be a major factor, and filter-style gas masks are easily within your capabilities to produce (you can even farm part of the process out to the locals, with instruction), which will provide effective if limited-duration protection against inhalation gasses.

Connor MacLeod · Post by **Connor MacLeod** » 2003-02-14 02:22am

Darth Wong wrote:I can't imagine something much worse for Orc morale than the drifting clouds of gaseous death we had planned earlier.

A horde of RSA clones rushing to meet the orcs.

Robert Treder · Post by **Robert Treder** » 2003-02-14 02:46am

I was just thinking, acquiring the Ring would be quite easy. Since this starts 1 year before FOTR, nobody is guarding the Ring, and we know exactly who has it. A strike team could descend upon the Shire, kick the shit out of Bilbo, and take the Ring. The Hobbits don't seem to have any real defenses, and we have guns that they might as well think are magic.
At that point in time, the greater races wouldn't give a shit about some raid on Hobbiton. Not until it's too late, that is.

Post by **Vympel** » 2003-02-14 04:14am

Patrick Ogaard wrote:A proposal for standardization of small arms:

#1: The standard weapon for at least two thirds of the troops should be a suitable civilian, semiautomatic copy of the M14 rifle, cleaning kit, basic repair kit, shoulder sling, bayonet, at least 20 magazines, a low-power (4x) telescopic sight, a padded and zippered scabbard, and a carrying case. This provides a forgiving weapon with high knockdown power, long range, a good-sized magazine (20 rounds), and the ability to fire rapidly when (not if) the enemy closes the range. Also, fitted with a bayonet the M14 is a long but fairly streamlined weapon, and the wooden furniture of the weapon will be relatively easy to repair compared to plastic and sheet metal.

#2: The remaining third of the troops should invest in a 5.56 mm semiautomatic knockoff of the assault rifle of their choice, with the same accessories as above. The only requirement is that the weapon must be able to use the standard NATO pattern of magazine as used by the M16, allowing troops to swap magazines and pool their resources while in the field. These lighter rifles are ideal for second line troops, and an orc is unlikely to sneeze at having two or three bullets in its gizzard.

I gotta disagree. Standard rifle must be 5.56x45mm calibre for all. 7.62x51mm NATO is big, but it goes straight through the target instead of causing much worse wounds than a NATO 5.56. In addition, 7.62mm rifles are inherently heavier and harder to fire. We need weapons that are easily handled.

As an addenum, squad leaders should all have 40mm grenade launchers with their rifles.

We should all use the same rifle though- we need to be able to exchange parts. Best candidate is probably the G36.

#3: Anyone who brings a shotgun or submachine gun instead will be soundly thrashed and turned over to Mr. Wong for suitable "corrective entertainment." The only exceptions are those persons who are really, really good with their chosen weapons and can prove it. Both weapon types are designed for extremely close range combat, ranges where a bow or a thrown spear will kill. Also, shotguns, unless loaded with exotic ammunition, will be less than stellar when pitted against wooden shields and armor composed of layers of iron and leather and padded cloth.

Agreed- utterly useless.

#4: The standard pistol should be the ever-popular 9 mm Beretta as employed by the US military. The 9 mm Parabellum round (AKA 9 mm Luger) has excellent penetration for a handgun round, combined with moderate killing power and a good reserve of ammunition. Standard accessories should be: cleaning kit, basic repair kit, dummy cord, at least 10 magazines (likely as not the 10-round models currently legal), a tiny low-powered telescopic sight, a standard military hip holster complete with protective flap, a shoulder holster for covert work, and a carrying case.

9x19mm parabellum against Orcs? I'd rather take a .45 military pistol, like those used by US Special Forces (SOCOM?)

#5: If legal in the scenario, every weapon should come with a laser targeter, thermal sight and spare batteries for the same. Even if never used, having access to all that stuff will be potentially useful (if just for morale).

Thermal sights for infantry weapons don't exist do they? *shrug* I take it you mean image intensifiers?

#6: In addition to the knife bayonet, everyone should also carry a conventional combat/survival knife of sturdy construction (and not so impracticably long as to be compensating for shortness elsewhere), as well as a pocket tool like a Leatherman or imitator thereof, and a large folding knife. The classic Ka-Bar with leather washer handle would be a good choice, as would the survival knives of the other military services.

Just put both in the same thing- M9 Wire Cutter Bayonet.

Post by **Coyote** » 2003-02-14 04:43am

5.56 would be good, but I still like the 7.62x39 COMBLOC round. We'll need heavy punching stuff for the orcs, especially if they are using shields. And agreed about the 9mm sidearms, we'll need at least .45; .40; and 10mm at the minimum. That said, I'd not discount a 9mm for use on others if necessary.

Don't give squad leaders the M-203s, SLs have enough to do. Ordinarily they'd go to a senior enlisted man in a squad, in this case we'll farm them out to team leaders. Remember, if we play our cards right we'll be advisors and do little of the actual fighting except when recon forces meet.

Don't discount shotguns, either-- in fact, I'd bring my Mossberg 590. Jacketed sabot rounds can probably punch through two or three orcs, and I'd bet we could experiment loading them with silver or other oddities to try against the wraiths... SMGs would be silly, though. Even if you're crack shot with them, they still fire (typically) pistol rounds.

Post by **Vympel** » 2003-02-14 05:19am

Coyote wrote: SMGs would be silly, though. Even if you're crack shot with them, they still fire (typically) pistol rounds.

Clearly, we need AKS-74Us in 5.45x39mm!!!!

The Duchess of Zeon · Post by **The Duchess of Zeon** » 2003-02-14 05:20am

M-14; accept no substitute. They had a version chambered for 7.62mm NATO, and they're heavy enough to deal a killing blow with the stock if it gets to hand-to-hand. Also much more rugged than any later western firearm -- And it's complete with a twenty-round magazine.

Post by **Vympel** » 2003-02-14 05:29am

The Duchess of Zeon wrote:M-14; accept no substitute. They had a version chambered for 7.62mm NATO, and they're heavy enough to deal a killing blow with the stock if it gets to hand-to-hand. Also much more rugged than any later western firearm -- And it's complete with a twenty-round magazine.

To big, too heavy- automatic fire is inaccurate as hell, harder to shoot. Frankly, we're doing something wrong if we're in hand to hand combat with Uruk Hai.

Of course, we're not restricted to Western 5.56mm. AK-101.

Patrick Ogaard · Post by **Patrick Ogaard** » 2003-02-14 07:53am

On the choices of weapons and ammunition:

I chose the M14 as the primary weapon for several reasons:

#1: The ammunition is extremely lethal and penetrating. The 7.62 mm NATO-standard round, available in a commercial version in the US as the .308, is a very marginally cut down version of the old stand-by, the .30-06. In terms of ballistics, penetration and stopping power, the 7.62 mm NATO round is so close to the .30-06 that the differences are significant only to professional snipers. That puts the 7.62 in the same category as the old British .303 and the equally old German 7.92 mm Mauser. There is a reason why special forces troops like to hold onto as many 7.62 mm battle rifles as they can: the bullets kill hard, go far, and are not as easily deflected by leaves and such as 5.56 mm rounds. If over-penetration should be a problem, simply filing a small cross into the tip of each bullet will take care of that problem.

#2: The M14, compared to the old-school M16 as a typical 5.56 mm assault rifle, masses just one kilogram more and is all of 14 centimeters longer. The M14's wooden furniture would be much easier to repair under primitive conditions than the sheet metal and high impact plastic typical of 5.56 mm assault rifles. The wooden furniture is also more likely to survive contact in close combat with an orc's sword.

#3: Choosing a civilian knockoff of the M14 eliminates the automatic fire feature, a feature not entirely useful in a weapon firing a full-caliber rifle round like the 7.62 mm NATO. Semiautomatic fire at close range will empty a 20-round magazine in short order in any event.

#4: The shorter 7.62 mm cartridge of the older AK-series rifles is less useful (and not available in the scenario in any event). As an intermediate cartridge, it has a comparatively weak powder charge propelling a full-size rifle bullet. That lets the bullet retain more striking power at range than the zippier 5.56 mm round while still keeping recoil almost manageable, but accuracy does suffer.

#5: The relative length of the M14, combined with its wooden furniture and "clean" layout, combine to make the weapon (with bayonet) the ideal choice for self defense in close combat. Engaging hordes of orcs and uruk-hai, with some of the orcs possibly riding wargs, means that at some point, close combat will happen. Since the defenders with the M14s had best be in close order, shoulder to shoulder, good bayonet reach is a must.

The 9mm Parabellum handgun I chose for a few simple reasons (and I would expect a significant minority of the deployed personnel to choose a .45 or a .40 S&W regardless):

#1: The handguns will be a backup for emergencies, and most (though admittedly not all) shooters appear to find the 9 mm easier and more comfortable to shoot than the .45, while the .40 is operationally not significantly different from the 9 mm.

#2: The 9 mm fires its round at a relatively high velocity, whereas the .45 fires its round at distinctly subsonic velocities. The heavier, slower bullet of the .45 is better at stopping a target cold, but it has comparatively low penetration (important against orcish body armor), as well as relatively violent recoil.

#3: Orcs are not "that" tough. An arrow to standard human vital areas will kill an orc quite dead, and a good sword thrust will also do for an orc. A double tap from a 9 mm at close range should be just as effective, and if that fails, spend another bullet or two. Uruk-hai were, in book terms, noteworthy because they were as big and tough and strong as humans, and what kills a human in battle kills an uruk-hai.

Regarding the multiple knives:

Having just one knife that does everything is ultimately a bad idea for one simple reason: They have to last 18+ years, so having a backup or two, one capable of doing something else, is a good thing. The folding knives could even find a use as trade goods and political gifts.

On the thermal sight recommendation: what I meant was not what I wrote (which proves I got rather careless). The ideal choices would be a mix of passive IR sights of the sort used on Dragunov sniper rifles and the familiar image intensifiers (starlight scopes).

The single most important thing to remember is that the group will be in for the long haul, practically twenty years. Everything has to be tough or easily repaired with low tech materials or carefully coddled. Nothing likely to receive rough treatment (such as weapons) should be made of delicate or irreplaceable materials (including petrochemical plastics). Wherever possible, common equipment (such as weapons) should be duplicated so that damaged equipment can be cannibalized for repair parts or used as templates for attempts to manufacture replacements.

As the old saying goes, your mileage may vary.

Patrick Ogaard · Post by **Patrick Ogaard** » 2003-02-14 07:54am

A force of local auxiliaries and how to recruit them:

Assuming that several members of the taskforce have farming experience, producing greater crop yields than possible for normal farmers from Middle Earth should not be problematic. Modern hybrid crops will not be available, nor will modern fertilizers (unless the chem lab gets something good going). What the taskforce does have available is the following: knowledge of advanced farming techniques (stuff from the 1800s and the late Roman era would be quite enough), knowledge of advanced farming machinery, and machines capable of pulling large harrows and plows.

Given large, flat to rolling meadows like those to be found anywhere the good-guy humans from Middle Earth live, hummers will do adequately as tractors. Harrows and plows are mechanically very simple devices, and a simple mechanical reaper could be fabricated and rigged to the front of a hummer. The hummers will allow the effective planting and harvesting of enormous tracts of land by local standards. Given about two to three years for startup, the areas around the fort could be churning out enormous surpluses of grains and legumes, as well as enough oil-rich seed material (sunflower, rapeseed, flax) to stretch the diesel supplies considerably.

Once commercial ties are established with the various local powers, caravans of timber fortress wagons pulled by hummers could be used to bring the surplus goods to the major markets. This would also provide the taskforce with a legitimate excuse for snooping around. Selling or providing as gifts the .40 S&W and 12 gauge armaments would also be possible that way.

A hot seller might be a brace of smoothbore .40-caliber bronze or iron pistols. Set up as very simple breechloaders and over-engineered to allow their being used as short clubs in close combat, they would be ideal weapons for light cavalry. An individual pistol might be issued with a case of 20 cartridges, with additional cartridges having to be supplied by the mysterious merchants.

A longer barrel and a carved wooden buttstock would turn that weapon into a hybrid musket, inaccurate at any great range but undeniably lethal and ridiculously easy to use. For making fine archers, the common saying, paraphrased and mangled by me, was: "Start with the grandfather." A muzzle-loading musket is much simpler to use, but still something that needs a few hundred hours of training to really produce ideal results. A muck-beslimed yokel should be able to grasp the effective use of a .40-caliber breechloader in a day or two, and a trained crossbowman should be able to put the weapon through its paces after a few hours of instruction. Then it's just a matter of training the troops to stand fast, shoulder to shoulder, in two ranks, with the front rank kneeling and the second firing over the heads of those in front. A further innovation would be to immediately introduce a modern pattern of bayonet, allowing the troops to provide for their own close-range defense. Outfitted with quilted jerkins, iron breastplates (for which a hammer mill would be nice) and iron helmets, such troops would cut through orc ranks quite handily. Shorten the barrel slightly and you've got a carbine for cavalry.

It would, of course, behoove the taskforce to figure out a method of producing replacement munitions for the eventual inevitability of ammunition exhaustion.

For greater aborigine firepower, the shotgun shells could be remanufactured. It can be assumed that the majority of the shells will be loaded with shot, nearly useless against well-armored opponents. Replacing the shot with a simple cylindrical or spherical slug (nearly 20 mm diameter) of lead would produce so-called "lethal ball" ammunition, still short-ranged but horrendously lethal and likely able to hurt even a troll.

If suitable machine tools are available or can be fabricated, rifled barrels would be a particularly deadly addition, dramatically increasing effective range. Rifled weapons might initially be reserved for issue to the aboriginal auxiliaries of the taskforce, giving them an advantage over possible opponents with the cheaper smoothbores.

Durandal · Post by **Durandal** » 2003-02-14 11:08am

By the way, recruiting Elvish archers as snipers would also be a good thing.

HemlockGrey wrote:You know, he could always split the block in half.

Using what, exactly? Even if he can, he still has to dig the Ring out from the steel, which will have solidified over it. If we make the block sufficiently large (say, the size of a server case in height and width), it will be difficult to transport for the enemy, and the Nazghul won't have a clue as to where it is, since no one can wear it. Even if the Uruk-hai manage to seize the gigantic block of steel, they'll still have to transport it, meaning that their pace will be slackened a great deal, so it'd be rather easy for us to take it back, even if it was taken from us.

That leaves us free to keep it where we want and take it to Mount Doom at our leisure.

Post by **Mr Bean** » 2003-02-14 11:20am

Thats acutaly an excellent idea, Taking the one Ring and imbeding it in a two ton block of steel would rather easily make sure no one is gonna walk off with it anytime soon

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-02-14 12:05pm

After WW2, the Jeep company tried to market Jeeps as light-duty tractors. It would not be difficult to hitch a plow to the back of a Hummer, and the local farmers would be rather grateful.

Patrick Ogaard · Post by **Patrick Ogaard** » 2003-02-14 12:19pm

Another vital concern would be research into the nature and laws of magic in Middle Earth. Basically, think Harold Shea from "The Incompleat Enchanter."

The trick is to scientifically analyze the underlying principles of magic in the setting and, through research and experimentation, figure out how to do stuff. If the basics of magic are not bound strictly to genetics or mystical bloodlines, then a rigorous analysis should yield usable results.

The obvious end result is everyone's favorite Canadian Curmudgeon teaching Introduction to Elementary Spellcasting, The Physics of Dweomer, Applied Mystic Poetry, Free Dance Solutions to Necromantic Equations, and Dirty Tricks of Battle Magic.

Sr.mal · Post by **Sr.mal** » 2003-02-14 01:15pm

I agree with the standard rifle being the M-14 its beefy, reliable as hell, and can be easily reparied. Dont discount smgs. At close range having an FNP-90 can be lethal. Fifty round mag with ammo that can penetrate modern body armor and has little recoil, I have fired one of these its not hard to control on full auto, however its not to easy to repair. A good alternative would be the German MP-38 ,not to sure about that designation, the 9MM parabellum rounds have penetrating power at close range. Not to mention the fact that they are supersonic rounds unlike a .45. For a sidearm a Desert Eagle chamered in .357 ma rounds should suffice. Also shotguns are very useful. Have it loaded with either slug rounds or ampor piercing sabot raounds will make it very effective. If we could get them having a few RPG-7's with HE rounds instead of shaped charges will do nicely to stop a charge.

With the chem lab I recommend we make some napalm for use in flame throwers. If they get near the walls of whatever base we have, I like Hlems Deep myself, simply turn the orcs into crispy critters.

The idea pf a zeppelin if a good one. Have a small one that can hold like 5 people, give them one mg, and as many grenades as it can hold and we have death from above.

phongn · Post by **phongn** » 2003-02-14 01:16pm

The Dark wrote:Another nasty boobytrap would work if we knew they were planning on laying siege to a place. What you'd do is dig small holes. Place one nail in each hole, then place a bullet on top of it (NOT a rimfire bullet). When something step on the tip of the bullet, it's forced down on the nail, causing the bullet to be fired from the ground, shattering the foot of whatever stepped on it. Simple, and effective. The VC have many lessons to teach.

Punji sticks also work.

Sr.mal · Post by **Sr.mal** » 2003-02-14 01:16pm

I like the art of necromancy myself. Nothing like raising an army that can't die, it's already dead, and having it be 100% loyal. MMMMM brain *drools*

Sr.mal · Post by **Sr.mal** » 2003-02-14 01:17pm

Making Hydrogen for zeppelins is easy. If I remeber correctly HCl+Mg--> H+MgCl

phongn · Post by **phongn** » 2003-02-14 01:21pm

Sr.mal wrote:I agree with the standard rifle being the M-14 its beefy, reliable as hell, and can be easily reparied. Dont discount smgs. At close range having an FNP-90 can be lethal.

The P90 has some soldierproofing issues, AFAIK. For that reason alone I would not want to use it.

A good alternative would be the German MP-38 ,not to sure about that designation, the 9MM parabellum rounds have penetrating power at close range.

You're probably thinking of the MP5 family. They also have an MP7 that was shown on the board a short awhile ago and might be a superior alternative to a simply pistol (roughly the same size); but we don't have the 4.6mm ammunition.

If we could get them having a few RPG-7's with HE rounds instead of shaped charges will do nicely to stop a charge.

No RPGs.

phongn · Post by **phongn** » 2003-02-14 01:24pm

Patrick Ogaard wrote:The obvious end result is everyone's favorite Canadian Curmudgeon teaching Introduction to Elementary Spellcasting, The Physics of Dweomer, Applied Mystic Poetry, Free Dance Solutions to Necromantic Equations, and Dirty Tricks of Battle Magic.

What would be more interesting is if magic could work in our universe after we head back as well (or if a portal is opened). Professor Wong teaching MGC 1001?