SDN World 3 Commentary Thread II

[MKSheppard]

I didn't handwave it, I landed 20mi away under a smoke screen.

Coastal fortress divisions are composed of two infantry brigades and one coastal fortress artillery brigade, which includes 4 x 450mm L50 triple-mount emplacements, 8 x 350mm L45 twin-mount emplacements, 36 x 80mm L60 anti-aircraft emplacements, and 54 x 14.7 mm machine gun emplacements.

The 2nd Army supposedly landed less than 30 km from Fuerte Sherman, which means they're so dead that their boats sunk themselves out of self-pity.

Which will face off against my BC fleet providing fire support which would be 36x 420mm/L50, and 32x 380mm/L45. Moreover I could easily drop in support from my main fleet and add 96x 380mm/L45s without hampering my ability to check your fleet. I also have 2 freakin corps or 6 divisions with organic artillery along with 2 corps artillery brigades. Its not surprising they were over run.

30km away from a land based fort is either out of range of those guns, or it at the extreme limits of their range while my BB fleet can easily suppress their fire by counter-battery. Do you think I just waltzed up to the coast and landed with no regards to your forts? I knew you listed major forts at either end of the canal which is why I struck at Punta Gorda instead of Colon itself since I figured a proper sighting of your fort would be around Sherman which is a good 20 mi as the crow flies from my landing zone. Some of your guns could reach that BUT you have no means of observing the fall of shot. Discounting terrain features that might obscure (and they are plentiful here) you are not going to be able to see anything under 10' tall at that range unless you've got observation cupolas that are just begging to have been shot away by the aforementioned BB fleet.

In other words your fort can engage the troops or the fleet and maybe hold off one or the other but not both at the same time. I accounted for your fort and with a 10 roll my troops would be ashore under even the most murderous fire.

12 x 450mm L50 = 17.7" - the USN 18"/48 gun had a range of 39 km.
16 x 350mm L45 = 13.7" - the Japanese 14"/45 had a range of 35.4 km.

How sorry that he can shoot up the area around him with precalculated firing and target tables; and has full 360 degree capability -- Ryan Said "triple mount" which means.....



You don't even need to SEE the target if you're engaging land targets, like amphibious landings -- all you need is a telephone call from a lookout on the beaches being landed saying "MEXICANS LANDING AT BEACH RED, REPEAT BEACH RED"; and all the fortress guys have to do is look up in their nice books:

"BEACH RED RANGE TABLE: ELEVATE x DEGREES, TRAIN y DEGREES, LOAD POWDER CHARGE Z; BEACH IS PRIMARILY x TYPE OF SAND, SO FUZE FOR u SECONDS FOR MAXIMUM EFFECT."

As a bonus, since the gun mounts are on land, weight is basically irrevelant, so they can be armored to a level much higher than that normally found on seagoing mounts.

And if you want to suppress those mounts with naval gunfire, your battleships will have to cruise in racetrack patterns, opening them up to Gran Colombia Submarines; which will be damn effective, due to your lack of a destroyer screen. Hell, even a missed torpedo salvo will fuck up your racetrack -- "SHIT, TORPEDOES INCOMING, LEFT HARD RUDDER"

*ships turn which every way; with possibility of collission*

*two battleships collide and lock bows*

"Sir, immobile target, 90 degrees, range 30,000 yards! Rapid Fire Armor Piercing Capped!"

*locked together battleships recive several hits of 18" and 14" fire and are burning from end to end within minutes*

[DarthShady]

Mang this game got fun and bitchy while I wasn't around.

Finaly found time to get a post up. My apologies for not being very active. I should have more time to devote to the game now.

[Steve]

Listen, Wilkens did not "magic away" Ryan's forts. When we, the mods, put together Wilkens' action rolls, we did not know they fucking existed, and we could not know because, lo and behold, they were not mentioned in Ryan's OrBat.

You don't have to super-detail them, people, just say something like this:

Fort Hawkins and Fort Kamehameha
Entrance to Pearl Harbor
Armament:
16 16"/50 guns
10 8"/55 guns
10 155mm/50 guns

Boom. We now know you have a fort there and what it's armed with.

Had we known they existed, we would've placed the success threshold for Wilkens' amphib assaults much higher, probably such that only the third of the amphib attacks would've succeeded (the one he rolled 10 on).

[MKSheppard]

The Harbor Defenses of Southern NEw York in 1944 were:

4 x 16" Guns
8 x 12" Guns
2 x 10" Guns
4 x 6" Guns
4 x 90mm Guns

And this was considered enough to repel a largish battle fleet.

By contrast, Ryan has:

12 x 18"~ Guns
16 x 14"~ Guns

And the Mexicans somehow land imperviously on a beach under the protection of this fort? Jesus, lets not forget the Mexican concept of

"look, we'll land 20 miles away and under cover of smoke, the enemy will not be able to see us, so we're safe!"

Completely forgetting or denying the existence of pre-ranged fire and fire tables in fortifications.

[Raj Ahten]

Shep, you know of any good online sources on coastal forts? I'm trying to figure what would be appropriate for modern (1920's built) and older (built 1905-1910) forts. I know forts are damn expensive and you couldn't guard every coastal city of size. So what absolutely should be guarded? I'm thinking sites like major shipyards, The capital and entries to navigable rivers.

[MKSheppard]

There's also the fact that you know, the Mexican Army is moving by sea the same rought amount of men as the D-Day lift (6-8 divisions) over a greater distance -- and with a pathetic destroyer screen.

Can we say "tens of thousands of poor drowned sailors from submarine raiders gotten into the convoys"?

EDIT: Damn, he's only got what, 29 destroyers to do screening duties -- there is no way he can screen either his battlefleet or his troop ship convoys at the same time.

[MKSheppard]

Shep, you know of any good online sources on coastal forts?

Link

[Steve]

I'd order the retconning of Shep's last post until the rolls are processed, but it's a Shepistani newspaper so their accuracy is questionable anyway.

[MKSheppard]

I'd order the retconning of Shep's last post until the rolls are processed, but it's a Shepistani newspaper so their accuracy is questionable anyway.

How about you shut the fuck up?

Gran Colombia has 64 submarines. Wilkens has 29. 29 destroyers.

Wilkens is also:

1.) Moving the same amount of men as in D-Day (6-8 divisions) further than at D-Day
AND
2.) Attacking a strongly defended beach which is defended by mere 28 heavy guns.

How is he going to protect:

The bombarding battlefleet from submarines AND his huge troop ship convoys at the same time -- D-Day required 800~ merchant ships alone -- with 29 Destroyers?!?!!?!?!?

This would be one catastrophic fuckup after fuckup for the Mexicans unless the Gran Colombians are more incompetent than Modern African Militaries.

[Ma Deuce]

One thing that's holding up my army and coastal defence planning is manpower needs, for instance what kind of battery could you operate with the equivalent of a game-standard brigade (5,000 men), or for that matter how many men did that New York battery require? Planning fortifications and large armies is not my strongest area of knowledge, so I may need to call upon your expertise Shep on exactly what kind of brigades I should be using and where they should be deployed, if you're amenable to that (in which case I'll drop you a detailed PM explaining what I have to work with and what I need my forces to do), because I really want to my OOB completely done before the end of Q3 1925 (which IIRC is now Dec. 21 IRL due to the 2-day moratorium) so I can get my current and historical construction queues done as well.

[Steve]

He's attacking three different beaches in the second phase, fuckhead. But you know what, if you want to raise this protest with him and talk Wilkens into rescinding two of his Phase 2 landings be my fucking guest. I'm busy trying to process Ryan's counterattack, well, the parts I'll let stand because moving 7 armies into Panama in the space of 3 days is frankly stupendous.

[MKSheppard]

One thing that's holding up my army and coastal defence planning is manpower needs, for instance what kind of battery could you operate with the equivalent of a game-standard brigade (5,000 men), or for that matter how many men did that New York battery require?

I honestly do not know. But I do know that Fort Drum, the concrete battleship of Manila bay, with its 2 x 14" Twin Mounts needed a mere......200 man garrison.

So figure 150-200 men for each battery of large caliber coastal guns.

[MKSheppard]

He's attacking three different beaches in the second phase, fuckhead.

Fuck you. You've yet to think about how he's going to move 6 to 8 divisions longer than at D-Day by sea, and protect them AS WELL as the bombarding battleships from submarine attack with.......29 fucking destroyers.

DOES NOT FUCKING COMPUTE.

[Steve]

He's attacking three different beaches in the second phase, fuckhead.

Fuck you. You've yet to think about how he's going to move 6 to 8 divisions longer than at D-Day by sea, and protect them AS WELL as the bombarding battleships from submarine attack with.......29 fucking destroyers.

DOES NOT FUCKING COMPUTE.

Actually, Rogue and I are discussing the retconning of his attacks into either smaller amphibious attacks or not happening. So would you please leave well enough alone for the moment and let us do this?

[Thanas]

So I wrote a half-humorous post about the situation at sea and at home while I wait for Karmic to approve my post. Still have got to give some secondary characters some names.

[MKSheppard]

So would you please leave well enough alone for the moment and let us do this?

Link

Operation Watchtower
(August 1942)
19,000 Troops

1 x BB
11 x CA
3 x CL
3 x CV
33 x DD
5 x Minesweepers
13 x Transports
4 x Fast Transports
5 x Cargo Ships
78 Ships Total

Operation Galvanic
35,000 Troops

13 x BB
8 x CA
4 x CL
4 x CV
4 x CVL
4 x CVE
1 x Carrier Transport
56 x DD
14 x DE
3 x Minesweepers
16 x Attack Transports
4 x Attack Cargo Ships
9 x Merchant Transports
38 x LSTs
11 x LCI
2 x LSDs
191 Ships Total

Operation Overlord
(June 1944)

7 x BBs
25 x Cruisers
105 x DDs
2 x Monitors
2 x Gunboats
26 x DE
27 x Frigates
71 x Corvettes
18 x PCs
145 x Motor Launches
54 x Harbor Defense Motor Launches
82 x Large MTBs
84 x Small MTBs
6 x SGBs
32 x RMLs
18 x SCs
15 x PTs
60 x Coastguard Cutters
277 x Minesweepers
225 x Tugs
4 x Blockships
39 x Salvage and Wreck Disposal Ships
60 x Smoke-making Trawlers
311 x Landing Ships (LSI, APA, LST)
1,211 x Major Landing Craft
2,499 x Minor Landing Craft
18 x Personnel Ships
224 x MT Ships
64 x MT Coasters
122 x Store Coasters
150 x Tankers and Colliers
136 x Cased Petrol Carriers
55 x Blockships
76 x Ammunition Carriers
18 x Ammunition Supply Issuing Ships
78 x Liberty Store Ships
10 x Hospital Ships
10 x Accommodation Ships
295 x Miscellaneous Merchants

Totals:
1,373 x Merchant Ships
4,021 x Landing Craft and Ships
1,089 x Naval Ships
6,483 x Total Craft and Ships of all Types

[Thanas]

Day 2 of the Dutch war is up, agreed to between Siege and me.
link to advance.
Black = general advance of Infantry and cavalry
Pink = armored
green = cavalry
orange = dutch

[Ryan Thunder]

I knew something had to be full of shit.

He's attacking three different beaches in the second phase, fuckhead. But you know what, if you want to raise this protest with him and talk Wilkens into rescinding two of his Phase 2 landings be my fucking guest. I'm busy trying to process Ryan's counterattack, well, the parts I'll let stand because moving 7 armies into Panama in the space of 3 days is frankly stupendous.

If its too ridiculous then space them out a bit. Oh, and don't make them do anything obviously stupid. If it does

[RogueIce]

If its too ridiculous then space them out a bit. Oh, and don't make them do anything stupid.

We generally assume competence. It all depends on the rolls though. If you get a 2, Bad Things happen. If you get a 12, you did awesome. Anywhere in between, well, it depends on what's happening, what you're facing, etc.

EDIT: And there is this:

Actually, Rogue and I are discussing the retconning of his attacks into either smaller amphibious attacks or not happening.

So your movements and plans of attack might not be the same in the end.

[Ryan Thunder]

If its too ridiculous then space them out a bit. Oh, and don't make them do anything stupid.

We generally assume competence. It all depends on the rolls though. If you get a 2, Bad Things happen. If you get a 12, you did awesome. Anywhere in between, well, it depends on what's happening, what you're facing, etc.

Good enough for me.

EDIT: And there is this:

Actually, Rogue and I are discussing the retconning of his attacks into either smaller amphibious attacks or not happening.

So your movements and plans of attack might not be the same in the end.

Well if you're going to do that, do it first. Then let me know the state of affairs and give me an opportunity to change before implementing yesterday's plan. Cool?

[Akhlut]

Thanas, it seems that the Kanzler has forgotten that the Mongols had what was arguably an even greater Empire, stretching from Korea to Kiev, and from Siberia to northern Vietnam.

[Thanas]

Thanas, it seems that the Kanzler has forgotten that the Mongols had what was arguably an even greater Empire, stretching from Korea to Kiev, and from Siberia to northern Vietnam.

Not in relative terms of power and long-term impact.

[Akhlut]

Thanas, it seems that the Kanzler has forgotten that the Mongols had what was arguably an even greater Empire, stretching from Korea to Kiev, and from Siberia to northern Vietnam.

Not in relative terms of power and long-term impact.

Arguably, but I'd really rather not get into that now, especially with someone who has studied Justinian Code in depth.

[Thanas]

Thanas, it seems that the Kanzler has forgotten that the Mongols had what was arguably an even greater Empire, stretching from Korea to Kiev, and from Siberia to northern Vietnam.

Not in relative terms of power and long-term impact.

Arguably, but I'd really rather not get into that now, especially with someone who has studied Justinian Code in depth.

Well, that can't be me then as I am far from being an expert on that, I just read the thing and wrote a few papers about it. Seriously, when Sänger says "greatest", he is not thinking about the size of the empire, but about how much of an impact it had. There is no empire that has had a greater impact on history throughout its decendant states or what better embodies it when you think of an empire. Even the word empire is derived from imperium (romanum).

[Siege]

... and so the good general radios a fire-and-brimstone speech across the Union. That should nicely galvanize resistance on and behind the lines .