SDN World 3 Commentary Thread II

[MKSheppard]

Using only converted merchant men and lighters the British and French put 5 Divisions ashore which nearly reached their objects save only that they were opposed by 6 Trukish Divisions

Do I have to point out that this is not 1915? You can't just form up companies on battleships and destroyers, then have them taken ashore in warship gig/steam launches for your initial landings. Not especially when the place is covered by 28 heavy guns.

Plus supply needs have exploded since 1915; with the invention of light machine guns, mortars, flamethrowers, and basically infantry divisional pieces bigger than 75mm.

EDIT: If you're going to send ashore light infantry, fine; but then you'll have to lock a significant portion of your fleet in the racetrack offshore to provide naval gunfire support until the larger artillery pieces are offloaded. Which opens them up to SUBMARINE ATTACK/COASTAL GUN ATTACK.

[Steve]

Shep, not every place he's attacking is under coastal guns....

Subs, I grant, but subs have to get there first and thus have to cruise on the surface, where they can be spotted from the air, or if they submerge will crawl along at 2-3 knots.

[MKSheppard]

Yes, because this is the arctic, where we have nearly 24 hour daylight. Where we don't have night/day cycles!

1.) Aircraft are little threat to subs in 1925.
2.) Submarines cruise on the surface at night, and if they get spotted by an aeroplane, oh well, dive and wait a few hours then surface again.

[RogueIce]

2.) Submarines cruise on the surface at night, and if they get spotted by an aeroplane, oh well, dive and wait a few hours then surface again.

Surprisingly enough, we did realize this and took it into account.

[Steve]

Having to wait until night still delays their ability to move in, and even if an aircraft doesn't pose a physical threat to the sub it can still alert the fleet to the sub's position and force the sub to submerge lest it get riddled with 5" and 6" (or more) gunfire.

I'm not saying the subs won't do damage but they're not going to instantly materialize at the combat site because you say so.

[Steve]

Oh, Ryan, you may add 1 division per rail track into Panama every 18 hours (a 6 hour improvement over Beo's rate since your distance is shorter). So from D+7 to D+10, you get 8 divisions added to forces in Panama as we are assuming your 5 in Infrastructure gives you 2 highly-expensive, hard to maintain rail lines through Darien Gap.

[CmdrWilkens]

Using only converted merchant men and lighters the British and French put 5 Divisions ashore which nearly reached their objects save only that they were opposed by 6 Trukish Divisions

Do I have to point out that this is not 1915? You can't just form up companies on battleships and destroyers, then have them taken ashore in warship gig/steam launches for your initial landings. Not especially when the place is covered by 28 heavy guns.

Plus supply needs have exploded since 1915; with the invention of light machine guns, mortars, flamethrowers, and basically infantry divisional pieces bigger than 75mm.

EDIT: If you're going to send ashore light infantry, fine; but then you'll have to lock a significant portion of your fleet in the racetrack offshore to provide naval gunfire support until the larger artillery pieces are offloaded. Which opens them up to SUBMARINE ATTACK/COASTAL GUN ATTACK.

Since only 1 of my 4 amphibious hooks was within range of coastal guns and that is one I am talking to the mods about modifying color me horribly concerned. Also I don't know if you noticed that specifically said I REQUISITIONED MERCHANTMEN for the offloading duties. I've been prepping for this for a couple months now and I'm using a bunch of converted colliers, trawlers, and coastal lugers to act in a capacity like the Clyde so they will run in to shore and disgorge their passengers while the heavy ships continue to sit well offshore.

Again the ONLY place I'm worried about the guns is if I had attacked within 30mi of the southern entrance (which I didn't) or 30mi of the northern entrance, which I did based on having no knowledge about the guns and am now modifying after having finally gotten the information my planners would have had years ago.

This may not be 1915 but its also not 1945 and I'm not offloading a mechanized force on to the beach, I'm dropping leg infantry just as the requirements for supply are greater than in 1915 they are lower than any of the WWII invasions.

[MKSheppard]

I'm dropping leg infantry just as the requirements for supply are greater than in 1915 they are lower than any of the WWII invasions.

Have fun when the Gran Colombian Army launches it's offensive with 5,500 shells an hour falling on each mile of frontage your light infantry holds.

[Ryan Thunder]

Hey wait, Wilkens, did you bring artillery regiments or not?

[MKSheppard]

Hey wait, Wilkens, did you bring artillery regiments or not?

He said light infantry. That means basically 75mm French "75s" as their heaviest pieces, along with some mortars. Have fun outgunning him with 105s and above.

[Steve]

It means what he wants it to mean.

[Ryan Thunder]

It means what he wants it to mean.

Yeah, its the implications of what he wants it to mean that I'm wondering about.

If his idea of light infantry includes siege guns we may have a problem, for example...

By the way, what's the news on with the plan I submitted?

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

Steve, can we get a clearer idea of what constitutes "hot dice"? If by anything, the bone of contention here, is how hot is hot, and whether this 'hot" should constitute outright victory at all, with or without caveats.

[Ryan Thunder]

Oh, Ryan, you may add 1 division per rail track into Panama every 18 hours (a 6 hour improvement over Beo's rate since your distance is shorter). So from D+7 to D+10, you get 8 divisions added to forces in Panama as we are assuming your 5 in Infrastructure gives you 2 highly-expensive, hard to maintain rail lines through Darien Gap.

Uh, D+7? What about D+5, or D+1 after I start reacting to his attack? That's just an army and a bit after he's had a week to consolidate!

Steve, can we get a clearer idea of what constitutes "hot dice"?

It means he rolled stupidly well. More successes than he has a right to, I guess.

[MKSheppard]

It means what he wants it to mean.

The largest artillery piece that you can reasonably land with the kind of slap-dash operation Wilkens has going is 105mm, and that's with plenty of difficulty in manhandling it over the side of the merchantman into a ship's lighter -- 75mm pieces are much easier to handle.

155mm and above? Forget it unless you have a pier and some pretty strong steam cranes/winches.

Really, all you have to worry about is Wilkens' Naval Gunfire -- and he can't stay around in the area that long, since the place will become a magnet for motor torpedo boats, and submarines shortly -- it would take only one day for a submarine moving at 13 knots to move 200 miles. So his navy has to leave the area within a reasonable amount of time to regain freedom of mobility.

[MKSheppard]

It means what he wants it to mean.

If that's the case, I define Shepistani Light Infantry as having antigravity belts which let them move 380mm Seige Mortars over mountain passes with the slightest difficulty.

It's about as fucking realistic as the current state of events in the Gran Colombian area.

[Steve]

In limbo for the moment because, well, A) Wilkens is changing his Atlantic-side landing point and B) your figure for new armies introduced into the zone was rejected, so you need to plan around that (I believe I already posted the allowed rate).

Yes, hot dice means basically rolling high numbers consistently.

Your own plan dictated the arrival of forces starting D+7. If you want to change it do so, but it should probably not start until D+3 or D+4 because it'd take you a day to realize your front was completely broken and then it takes time to actually clear the rails, prepare the use of the two Darien Gap lines for one-way traffic to rush troops in, and get the actual trains ready to move troops and supplies up.

And Shep, if you have a problem with what Wilkens moves in arty wise, wait until he does so. I'm getting utterly fucking tired of your backseat modding and your trying to impose it upon the game via those smartass newspaper posts.

[CmdrWilkens]

Hey wait, Wilkens, did you bring artillery regiments or not?

He said light infantry. That means basically 75mm French "75s" as their heaviest pieces, along with some mortars. Have fun outgunning him with 105s and above.

There is a difference between LEG and LIGHT which I know you don't understand.

For the amphibious hooks ONLY:
The Corps level Artillery Brigades are NOT being landed (so no 150mm or 210mm guns) however the division level organic artillery is coming on shore with its associated horse/mule transport. This would be 105mm pack howitzers and yes some 75mm howitzers.

Now my land attack:
The artillery brigades which were pulled off the amphibious hooks are attached to these units. The revised attack will thus equal his gun line total on a corps for corps basis and once my landward attack catches up with my infantry then the Arty brigades will reconnect with their parent formation.

What this means is that the forward most units will have only light arty and whatever Naval Gunfire support my Admirals can spare until the link back up with their heavy arty.


Also Shep this is hardly "slapdash" since in game I've been planning this attack for oh I don't know five or six years. The need for converted merchantmen/colliers/tenders/sloops that can handle 105s is part of that.

[MKSheppard]

And Shep, if you have a problem with what Wilkens moves in arty wise, wait until he does so. I'm getting utterly fucking tired of your backseat modding and your trying to impose it upon the game via those smartass newspaper posts.

Nevermind that this sets a horrible precedent for future wars in the game -- I suppose I can just scrap all of my destroyers and use the manpower freed up to man several dozen new fast battleships -- since obviously now, we can move large numbers of troopships long distances and make landings on opposed coasts without having to worry about submarine attack at anchor or when manouvering the ships the high seas.

Or for that matter, since Fortresses or Railway networks don't matter now, I suppose I shouldn't bother listing my fortresses and major railway networks now...

[Ryan Thunder]

In limbo for the moment because, well, A) Wilkens is changing his Atlantic-side landing point and B) your figure for new armies introduced into the zone was rejected, so you need to plan around that (I believe I already posted the allowed rate).

Your own plan dictated the arrival of forces starting D+7.

If you want to change it do so, but it should probably not start until D+3 or D+4 because it'd take you a day to realize your front was completely broken and then it takes time to actually clear the rails, prepare the use of the two Darien Gap lines for one-way traffic to rush troops in, and get the actual trains ready to move troops and supplies up.

Okay.

And Shep, if you have a problem with what Wilkens moves in arty wise, wait until he does so. I'm getting utterly fucking tired of your backseat modding and your trying to impose it upon the game via those smartass newspaper posts.

I might not agree with his methods, but the man does have a point. Several, in fact...

[Ryan Thunder]

Charges River
Last Updated by burnettr < 1 minute ago
The river carries an average depth of 12ft, shallow draft steamers akin to the gunboats used in the Crimean War will take some of the initial assault force inland on the river.
The rest will stage from the beach and march along the two parallel roads.

Are you insane?

Steve; this shouldn't even get a fucking roll. If it does the modifier to his roll would have to be like a -10 or something.

[MKSheppard]

There is a difference between LEG and LIGHT which I know you don't understand.

Not really. Leg and Light Infantry are pretty much the same -- they have jack and shit for fire support. For Leg, it's because they have to carry everything on their backs, or with some help from horses -- for Light, it's because they've been deliberately crippled in capabilities, so they can fit in x or y number of ship/plane/landing craft loads.

This would be 105mm pack howitzers and yes some 75mm howitzers.

You mean the pieces which generally top out between 7 and 8 km, while 100mm Guns/Cannon toss the same shell out to 16-19 km?

Not to mention.....the fact that Ryan's troops will be sitting on oodles and oodles of ammunition supplied by the trainload, to support their artillery spam; while you have to move each individual shell over the beachhead, and thence to the guns.

What this means is that the forward most units will have only light arty and whatever Naval Gunfire support my Admirals can spare until the link back up with their heavy arty.

Oh goody, then that means your fleet/amphibious fleet has to stay in the area pretty damn long, since it's really hard to move heavy artillery off ships without a dedicated pier and steam winches.

[Steve]

I agree he does, but the fact is he's not even letting us do our jobs. Hell, he succeeded: Wilkens is retooling the Phase 2 Atlantic landing due to his arguments on the coastal fort. Therefore everything's held up until he does so and we can roll on that, then roll on your counter-moves.

And we're actually going to roll tonight on your Pacific-side naval maneuver and whether your subs also manage to inflict damage on the ships supporting the Pacific-side troop landings. Well, after Timothy does Thanas' rolls.

Now, for the rail thing. For about 2-3 days you can direct both of your Darian Gap rails to move one-way, into Panama, but then you'll need to start using one for Panama-to-Colombia traffic before your rail yards in Panama get too full, plus to return the rolling stock to keep your forces moving into Panama. At this point your transfer rate drops from 2 divisions into the area every 18 hours to 1 division.

[Ryan Thunder]

I think its hilarious that his solution to the existence of an incredibly well-defended strongpoint is to land as close to it as he possibly can.

PROTIP: Landing there is going to get your troops mowed down by machine guns and the Fortress infantry brigades.

[Norade]

Steve I know you're busy but what is the status of my attack on Suriname and my mining operations?