SW vs 40K

[Shroom Man 777]

How can the "Shroud of the Dark Side" trick two hundred Jedi to put themselves in a shit tactical situation that gets a bunch of them ambushed, surrounded and killed when the "Shroud of the Dark Side" couldn't do the same for two Jedi (who were involved in the prior situation) operating by themselves in a ship populated by enemy droids, against the very same Dark Jedi/Sith Lord from the prior situation? The Shroud of the Dark Side must be very powerful, since when its effects were lessened, Mace Windu totally won a fistfight against more droids than those in the Geneosis Arena. With his fists.

[Serafina]

How does it prove that the Jedi have large numbers of bad combatants when most of the sample for that battle was cherry-picked from the least combat-capable segment of the Order? Two hundred administrators from the central Temple are hardly representative of tens of thousands of capable field operatives. Their role is passive exactly because their powers are best suited for that (or in plain language, weak - just look at Tionne in the new Jedi Order).

Either way, it shows that not all Jedi are super-powerfull fighters.
And that from a order that has access to a galaxy of force-users and supposedly only recruits the strongest ones.

The demonstrated powers of higher-ranking Masters are definitely in excess of what was observed on Geonosis. The disparity between the performance of Windu, Kenobi, et al there and elsewhere is considerable. I am at a loss to explain this rationally in an in-universe fashion (out of universe, this is, of course, due to inconsistent writing by Lucas and his pets), but again, it might be related to the aforementioned Shroud of the Dark Side.

We have one possible explanation - the "clouding by the dark side".
However, thats not really an satisfactory explanation, since only Dooku was present. If we apply this explanation, this means that one Sith-Lord can influence eigth Jedi masters and numerous other Jedi gravely.

Either way, higher canon (the movies) overrrides lower canon (books etc.).
Furthermore, we see in the Clone Wars cartoon that a small number or Driodekas (about a dozen IIRC) can endanger Yoda, if only by surprise. If we consider that Obi-Wan was captured by only a few droids in AotC and that he an Qui-Gon had to retreat from only three or four Droidekas in TPM, it is pretty clear that Jedi are NOT unstoppable Juggernauts.
They have a pretty good defensive if they are aware (naturally or supernaturally) of their attackers, and they are presumably quite tough (due to training and force-shielding), but their offensive is only medicore (close-combat only, limited offenisve force-powers) and they can not good at soaking up damage.

[Ghost Rider]

Just a small note. The Shroud of the Dark Side is specific to Palpatine over the Jedi Order. Dooku could've done his own clouding within his personal sphere but he is not in anyway related to that particular power.

[Darth Hoth]

How can the "Shroud of the Dark Side" trick two hundred Jedi to put themselves in a shit tactical situation that gets a bunch of them ambushed, surrounded and killed when the "Shroud of the Dark Side" couldn't do the same for two Jedi (who were involved in the prior situation) operating by themselves in a ship populated by enemy droids, against the very same Dark Jedi/Sith Lord from the prior situation? The Shroud of the Dark Side must be very powerful, since when its effects were lessened, Mace Windu totally won a fistfight against more droids than those in the Geneosis Arena. With his fists.

Crappy tactics can be attributed to overconfidence and the lacking military skills of the majority of the Geonosis Jedi. As for the Shroud, I would not consider it impossible that it could wax and wane in power as Palpatine was occupied by other things (or not), though that is speculation my part. Something to bear in mind is also that ten years elapsed between Episodes I and II, and by the conversation between Windu and Yoda it is implied that the lessening of their powers has come (or perhaps increased) in the interval between these samples.

Either way, it shows that not all Jedi are super-powerfull fighters.
And that from a order that has access to a galaxy of force-users and supposedly only recruits the strongest ones.

Where is it stated that Force aptitude is an important criterion for Jedi recruitment? The Jedi exclude even powerful Force-users if they are discovered at too late an age, while outright weaklings (e.g., Tallisibeth-Whatever-Her-Name-Was from Dark Rendezvous) get in at other times. Clearly the selection of apprentices is a more complicated matter than just one of raw power.

We have one possible explanation - the "clouding by the dark side".
However, thats not really an satisfactory explanation, since only Dooku was present. If we apply this explanation, this means that one Sith-Lord can influence eigth Jedi masters and numerous other Jedi gravely.

The Shroud of the Dark Side was operated by Palpatine galaxywide - film dialogue has it that even the Masters on Coruscant itself feel their powers diminishing. Yes, that does imply extreme superiority over the Jedi on his part, but then the EU fairly much confirms that.

Either way, higher canon (the movies) overrrides lower canon (books etc.).

Are you implying here that the on-screen Jedi powers demonstrate an upper limit, to the exclusion of superior EU examples? When last I checked, that opinion was not held in high esteem on this board (and rather than repeat all the points concerning that, I again refer to the thread I linked to earlier, as an example of an earlier debate on the topic).

[Simon_Jester]

If Palpatine has control over the level of "Dark Shrouding" he creates, the period right around Geonosis would have been the moment when he used that power to the fullest. That was a critical time for him.

He needed to steer the Jedi away from questions like "Where the hell did this clone army actually come from, anyway?" and "What happened to the second Sith Lord after the incident on Naboo?" And he needed to steer them towards becoming deeply tangled up in the Clone Wars, so that they wouldn't have time to ask those questions, because they'd be more worried about using the clone army than tracking down its source, and more worried about the "fallen Jedi"* threat of Dooku than the "Sith" threat of an unknown robed figure who was influencing the Naboo incident.

*There have been plenty of fallen Jedi who were not associated with the Sith; left to their own devices the Jedi Council might not make the connection that Dooku is a Sith.

[Bakustra]

If Palpatine has control over the level of "Dark Shrouding" he creates, the period right around Geonosis would have been the moment when he used that power to the fullest. That was a critical time for him.

He needed to steer the Jedi away from questions like "Where the hell did this clone army actually come from, anyway?" and "What happened to the second Sith Lord after the incident on Naboo?" And he needed to steer them towards becoming deeply tangled up in the Clone Wars, so that they wouldn't have time to ask those questions, because they'd be more worried about using the clone army than tracking down its source, and more worried about the "fallen Jedi"* threat of Dooku than the "Sith" threat of an unknown robed figure who was influencing the Naboo incident.

*There have been plenty of fallen Jedi who were not associated with the Sith; left to their own devices the Jedi Council might not make the connection that Dooku is a Sith.

He does not. The Shroud itself is created and maintained by the power of the dark side, and the dark side's strength in the galaxy overall. The Shroud actually got stronger the longer the Clone Wars went on. Palpatine orchestrated the Shroud, and was able to lift it partially aboard the Invisible Hand, but he does not create it. It is tied to him partially, because the Shroud remained up until his first death aboard the second Death Star. Once Anakin Skywalker killed him, the Shroud dissipated. The ROTS and ROTJ novels, when taken together, indicate this quite clearly.

[PainRack]

As I said, you're drawing a difference that doesn't exist. All psychic powers draw on the warp.

Is it your stance then that all pyskers are routinely able to manifest fireballs and lightning?

Again, you're confusing your biases for fact. Many will be fed to the Emperor, burn out maintaining the Astronomicon, or end up being relatively weak functionaries. Many others won't

What "bias"? This is the explicit canon line. Thousands of pyskers are considered too weak to survive in the Imperium and are fed to the Emperor. The rest of them are sent to the Astronomicon or serve as communications.

And again you horribly misused the term sorcery. I know I've said this a bunch of times, but you keep on failing to comprehend it. There isn't a magic line between those who can fry people and those who can't. With the right gifts and training, even a minor psyker can turn a fairly large number of people into ash. On the other hand, if a psyker's talents are only healing and divination, he's not going to be able to wrack up a similarly powerful pyromancer's body count (but could be even more useful if used right). Astropaths use a lot of warp energy to send messages. Any of them who have offensive TK or telepathic gifts have plenty of strength to fuck someone up.

What am I failing to comprehend?
Do you think I'm attempting to argue that SW has parity in terms of numbers of pyschic individuals? Or that I'm denying the Imperium pyskers the ability to have offensive powers?

1) There are billions of psykers. Many millions of them won't be pyromancers and the sample size from stories is tiny.
2) How do you know they aren't pyromancers? They won't be using pyromancy when they're trying to probe someone's mind or trying to find a warp disturbance. It's not a power it is wise to invoke carelessly.

What is your point?
I never argued that the Imperium doesn't have pyskers who are pyromancers. My argument is that the majority of Imperium pyskers will not be able to cast magic fireball, chain lightning and etc on the battlefield.

Actually it does. Senior sanctioned psykers act as advisers to IG leadership and have command authority on the battlefield. As mentioned, psykers are much more powerful than most Jedi.

How does acting as advisors and having command authority have ANY linkage to Force powers or pyschic talents?
Precog?

The Jedi use their Force powers to protect themselves while leading spec op missions and fighting from the front lines, as well as helping guide their decisions. The Clone Wars cartoons are full of the Jedi using the Force to help them overcome obstacles and enhance their chances of success while leading armies. A few at the right place can produce an enormous concentration of power and effort, just as with any other high value military unit. Then there's the issue of the Inquisition and Marine Librarians who do that shit all the time.

A pointless comparison since in this case, Space marines are more capable at this role than both sanctioned pyskers or Jedi.

I'm also wondering how this actually rebuts my statement, which was that the Imperium doesn't concentrate enough pyskers to affect the battlefield physically via their pyschic powers. Attempting a strawman of my position, that the Jedi do not affect the battlefield via their Force powers is irrelevent.

Space Marines have no compunction about taking over command of a war zone if they think its warranted.

Are you suggesting that I claimed Space Marines have compunctions about taking over command of a war zone if they think its warranted?

Are you kidding? The ability to shatter vehicles, control the weather, predict the enemy's moves, mind rape captives for information, shut down technology, and fry battledroids en masse is irrelevant?

And how often do pyskers of such powers actually appear on the battlefield? Or have you ignored that I not claiming that Imperium pyskers don't have great power. I'm claiming those of great power are limited enough, scattered enough that they won't have a relative impact on the battlefield.

The Tau have dozens of worlds and maybe the population of one large hive world. The CIS has tens of thousands of worlds. Do you have any evidence that the Imperium has never made a significant amount of psyker support for any campaign against the Tau?

The Damocles Crusade never saw any Psyker dominated the battlefield via mind control, weather control or etc now, did it? Or the atrocious Dawn of War novelisation for that matter.

[Shroom Man 777]

To be fair, the Tau are rather unusual when it comes to being affected by the warp. They don't seem to have psykers themselves, and their interactions with the warp are very much more limited compared to other species, even less than humans or orks (!).

[PainRack]

Now, let's consider a battle were we see a lot of Jedi in action, as opposed to just a one or two.
The Battle of Geonosis comes to mind, where about 200 Jedi were employed.

The battle of Geonosis is not a fair comparison. I have made the assertion before that the Jedi at Geonosis did not enter the arena as military soldiers, but rather as police officers. The Jedi masters have made it clear to Emperor Palpatine. They are keepers of the peace.

Given that context, we can see why the Jedi attempted the tactics they tried. They intercepted the head of the organisation, enacted a show of force via the revealation of the Jedi at the arena and attempted an arrest and standing down of the situation. While the precise tactics could had been improved upon, the principles of show of force, escalation, arrest and self-identification was evidently seen in Mace Windu actions and plans.

No valid comparison with a military force can be made from Geonosis.

But then again, the Jedi Order never fully accomodated to military realities. Shatterpoint and several other comics/short stories attempted to address the philosophical break here. It would had been useful if the EU or the Clone War series arc touch on the "Jedi uniform" that Anakin was wearing, especially since this would tie in with Luke own adoption of the uniform in ROTJ.

[fgalkin]

As I said, you're drawing a difference that doesn't exist. All psychic powers draw on the warp.

Is it your stance then that all pyskers are routinely able to manifest fireballs and lightning?

It's not "his stance", it's the goddamn truth. Psychic ice is a commonplace side effect of the use of any psyker power. Do you dispute this?

Again, you're confusing your biases for fact. Many will be fed to the Emperor, burn out maintaining the Astronomicon, or end up being relatively weak functionaries. Many others won't

What "bias"? This is the explicit canon line. Thousands of pyskers are considered too weak to survive in the Imperium and are fed to the Emperor. The rest of them are sent to the Astronomicon or serve as communications.

They are too weak to resist posession, which is not the same as too weak to be useful.

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

[Imperial Overlord]

What am I failing to comprehend?

How psychic powers and the warp exists. Its funny how someone who clearly has no understanding of it wants to argue so much about it. Again, all psychic powers are fueled by the warp. Telepathy, divination, fire balls, and breaking a titan in half are all accomplished by drawing warp energy into the material universe. All such effects can have side effects from the warp energy drawn. Telepathic thrusts can flip cars and shatter glass, divination can cause ice to form, etcetera. This difference you wish to draw between chucking fireballs and lightning bolts and non blaster type powers isn't a difference of magnitude or power drawn, but of power manifestation. A telepath could be much stronger and draw far more energy than a pyromancer. His powers won't be flashy, but he could be drawing far more warp energy with far stronger side effects. He'll just be snuffing minds or turning people into meat puppets instead of having flashy lightning displays.

My argument is that the majority of Imperium pyskers will not be able to cast magic fireball, chain lightning and etc on the battlefield.

Some won't be used in that role (you don't send a diviner or a telepathic interrogator or a weather witch to be used as field artillery). Some can shatter regiments.

How does acting as advisors and having command authority have ANY linkage to Force powers or pyschic talents?
Precog?

Precog, experience, and expertise on the capabilities and deployment of psychic resources on the field of battle.

The Jedi use their Force powers to protect themselves while leading spec op missions and fighting from the front lines, as well as helping guide their decisions. The Clone Wars cartoons are full of the Jedi using the Force to help them overcome obstacles and enhance their chances of success while leading armies. A few at the right place can produce an enormous concentration of power and effort, just as with any other high value military unit. Then there's the issue of the Inquisition and Marine Librarians who do that shit all the time.

A pointless comparison since in this case, Space marines are more capable at this role than both sanctioned pyskers or Jedi.

Nice black/white falacy. You don't have to be as good as Space Marines to be useful. Besides, Space Marines have powerful psykers with command authority within their ranks.

I'm also wondering how this actually rebuts my statement, which was that the Imperium doesn't concentrate enough pyskers to affect the battlefield physically via their pyschic powers. Attempting a strawman of my position, that the Jedi do not affect the battlefield via their Force powers is irrelevent.

1) Psykers don't have to directly affect the battlefield to be highly useful (weather witches and telepaths winning the battle in Only in Death by breaking the enemy, diviners discovering intelligence, etcetera).
2) It's already been proven that a single high grade psyker can win a battle single handedly. A merely strong psyker can therefore tip the balance in favor of his side. A group of even weaker psykers can make up the difference merely by numbers.

And how often do pyskers of such powers actually appear on the battlefield? Or have you ignored that I not claiming that Imperium pyskers don't have great power. I'm claiming those of great power are limited enough, scattered enough that they won't have a relative impact on the battlefield.

Funny, despite the fact that high power psykers can single handedly change the course of the battle, you continue to claim this about an organization that fields those psykers in the form of Psyker Primaris, Inquisitors, and Librarians and fields teams of weaker but still formidable psykers such as Sanctioned Units and Grey Knights.

The Damocles Crusade never saw any Psyker dominated the battlefield via mind control, weather control or etc now, did it? Or the atrocious Dawn of War novelisation for that matter.

Didn't read the Dawn of War (I've read Goto exactly once). My information on the Damocles Crusade doesn't go into details about the battles. Do you have a source that goes into details about the battles and supports a claim of no useful psyker presence?

[Connor MacLeod]

The Damocles Crusade never saw any Psyker dominated the battlefield via mind control, weather control or etc now, did it?

The Damocles gulf crusade was plagued by alot of psyker related problems, not limited to but including trouble with astropaths and IIRC warp travel (the Rogue Trader novels by Andy Hoare). There's something psychically fucked up about the region of space they inhabit. Although to be blunt we know too little about the actual ground warfare to determine what might have been actually employed (including the breakdown of regiments involved and such)

Or the atrocious Dawn of War novelisation for that matter.

Fighting which faction? The Orks? Chaos (who they didnt know about immediately IIRC anyhow), or the Eldar?

[Connor MacLeod]

This is how you handle the Force and the Warp.

The Warp is basically the "dimension of souls and magic" and has nothing to do with the force.

The Force is basically a realspace phenomena (as far as we know) that seems to exist in SW but can imperfectly interact (or fail to interact) with certain entities due to various reasons (the Vong for whatever reason they had whihc I forget, the Ssi-ruuk, etc.)

The Warp exists in SW but the connection is so tenuous that psykers are either rare or nonexistent (depending on whether or not you want to argue psychics in SW could be tied to the Warp) and vastly limited in power. In this respect they'd be more akin ot the tau, and thus influenced similarly. They are IIRC not EASY to affect, but can be affected (Inquisitor Oriel fucks with the tau's mind in Kill Team, for example) and of course can be physically touched by TK and other powers. They are NOT like Pariahs.

The tenuous connection to the warp also means that Chaos influence and corruption is sharply curtailed in the sense of "spontaneously detecting the soul in the warp and chomping down on it" - ie possession and the reason those with the least psychic activity are hunted down and killed or captured. More direct forms of corruption (EG through Chaos artefacts or chaos taint, which can include possession by say a daemonhost) and more mundane bribery/blackmail/etc. would still work.

The tenuous connection ot the warp also means that the Warp in SW is relatively calm and untroubled, and probably does not suffer from the same problems sa it does in 40K (IE no chaos gods or other entities) - though once 40k forces start interacting in Star Wars this may change. This also means the Warp should be easier/safer to navigate than in 40K, which addresses the Astronomican issue.

The Force is a bit different. We have no evidence midi-cholorians exist in 40K (whatever the fuck relation they have to Force users nowadays), and we have no evidence of actual force usage, so the same thing applies. Forcesensitives are so rare as to be virtually nonexistent (or just nonexistent) and so weak that they barely rate notice. Psychic activity in SW seems tied to the Force also, so it seems unliekly that SW psychics can be tied to the Warp.

Force powers such as telepathy and mind control ought to be usable against 40K races, since from what I gather most seem to work on the brain itself rather than working through the force connection, although this isnt hard and fast since some other powers seem to rely on that (some Warp powers have similar restrictions) so it may have certian limits or restrictions. Physical attacks (TK, Force lightning) naturally will work, as should precog.

In either case (force or Warp) it probably should be handled on a case by case basis with abilities that eaffect creaturesof either universe beyond basics (TP and TK and sensory stuff all ought to work obviously) Immunities likeiwse won't neccesarily cross over (EG Vong aren't immune to the Warp, and culexus assasins will do fuck all to a Jedi's connection to the Force.)

Numbers: No contest. 40K has vastly more psykers than SW has Jedi. SW argualy could have more force sensitives (the aforementioned psychic races, and IIRC there are entire races like the Miraluka who are force sensitive) but they won't neccesarily contribute significantly to power. Your average Imperium planet will have scores, if not hundreds or thousands of AStrpaths (civilised and Hive) in various commercial and military purposes. Many regiments (of which there can be millions or billions) will have at least one Sanctioned/Primaris psyker. There are thousands of Space Marine Librairans, and thousands if not millions of psychic Inquisitors.

It's also worth noting that Faith and Fire estimated that there was one or tw psykers per every 100,000 or so normals.

Power levels: Trying to estimate "individual" or "average" power for Jedi is going to be incredibly. Jedi abilities and powers aren't vey consistent and not neccesarily correlating to "status" - EG Some Jedi Masters IIRC are very weak in the Force in terms of certain or even many powers and may suck at combat. Some are highly specialized (good at telepathy but weak in TK, etc.) So correlating from one example to another will be difficult, esp when you have examples like Corron Horn.

Ther'es also the training issue. I'm not sure the 10K figure we know for the Prequel era is all jedi. As I recall its Jedi + Padawans (and the breakdown of Knight snad Masters and Council members varies.) This can influence power but given the ATOC novel training tends to effect efficiency (EG A gifted padawan like Anakin could match a Master on sheer power, but he wsa far less efficient in use and lacked enduance - the Dooku vs Anakin fight. Also Anakin was arguably less well trained than Obi-Wan in ROTS, thus explaining they're rough equivalency - Obi Wan was arguably more efficient.),

The best in terms of averages that come to mind are: Most Jedi should have some limited TK, short range precog, and some form of empathy. TK wise they ought to be able to shove several individuals (or battle droids) off their feat, make jumps several times their height (the Padawan from Darth Maul shadow hunter I am remembering), etc. Padawan Obi Wan and Qui-Gon, IMHO could represent the feats of "average" experienced PAdawans or Knights, given the Neimodian reactions and expectations in handling the Jedi. This is also tenative given Shatterpoint IIRC gives some hard limits on some of MAce Windu's feats (TK compared to Yoda.).

Most Masters probably can be equated at Padawan/Knight Anakin's feats (Dooku and Obi-Wan, although admittedly I'm not sure we can call then"average" Masters so that is tenative.) I would also expect most Knights/experienced PAdawans to be able to do what Luke did in TESB/ROTJ (Force jump on Bespin, the ability to levitate Luke's X-wing seemed to be expected by Yoda, also, but its use in combat would be selective.) All of this is tenative and conjectural, but since I'm doing roughly the same for 40K it shouldn't matter much.

"Exceptional" feats range from Luke reassembling Vader's destroyed castle (Before the Storm), Anakin's free falling onto Zam Wessel's speeder (thousands of gees easily - Padawan scale) Dorsk 81's feat in Darksaber, The Clone Wars micro series feats (many of which I should add are bloody INSANE - EG Mace Windu's fight scene.) Those aren't typical benchmarks, and many may very well prove to be either outliers, "lost tech" type examples, or circumstantial feats. (For example, the feat involving Luke rebuilding Vader's destroyed castle is so freaking insane that he's rarely if ever deployed that level of TK anywhere else - its either a circumstantial one or an outlier. Windu and Yoda in the CW micro series are likewise similar/

Rare feats: energy handling. Corran Horn would undoubtably be high end I, Jedi, but deflection of blaster oblts isnt totally rare at least for experienced Jedi (mid to high KJ and low MJ ability there).

Energy attacks: Infliction of energy seems to be more limited- Force lighting subjectivey seems little better than a flamethrower (single maybe double digit MJ mostly) TK tends to be more commonly used as an attack.

Psykers are also going to be variable, although not as much as SW is (generally, the more experienced or older a psyker is, the more powerful he is.) but powers can vary (Some Librarians are single use powers, EG Soul Drinkers.) while others can have several (Blood Ravens, etc) However, the sheer numbers will make up for the disparity.. there are literally billions of active psykers in the imperium, and likely millions with some measure of combat ability (Sanctioned psykers and Libriarans and some Inquisitors)

TK: Seems more limited than in SW. On high end (alpha level) you can fuck over Titans with TK. 4th edition rules describes psykers (which i take as an average indication of power) as flipping over tanks (probably battle psykers). Other sources, like Rogue Trader's RPG (and DH) and the 1st edition RT specify levitating a single vehicle mass or single digit ton masses at tops. The 5th Edition Guard Codex is described as a Psyker squad (5 or so IIRC) flattening a battle tank.

The stuff IO refers to is from Ravenor (Ravenor fights an unsanctioned psyker and his combat is flipping cars and damaging the surroundings, I'll try and find the quote) but he is arguably high end. On the other end is the Telekine Patience Kys, who has trouble holding back burly guys from moving for prolonged periods but can levitate small knives and hurl them with tremendous force and velocity (but she's un-ranked so she probably is little better than a Wyrd - eg less powerful than an Astropath or sanctioned psyker. The fact she's not soul bound also tends to suggest she's considered a "weak" psyker.) Coupled with above that should give a fairly broad but reliable range of power (Kys as low end, Ravenor/Alphas as high end - tank flippign would be a reasonable average)

Energy attacks: Much more common in the Imperium than in SW. Battle psykres. Librarians, and sufficiently powerful Inquisitors. Power is also more readibly quantified.. Libriarians have been dsecribed as "incinerating" people (Warrior Brood, Dawn of War, etc.) and the Rogue Trader/Dark Heresy RPG describes powers that can literally cremate groups and match the power of melta weapons.

Single/double digit quite conservative for most psykers (easily matching Jedi then), with higher feats being triple MJ or low GJ. Usually such inviduals can deflect similar levels of energy as well as attack.

Comparison:

SW has certain overall advantages. Their TK seems more plausibly powerful, at least in terms of certian combat uses (Though Kys is a close match there). The big advantage is a more consistent short range precognition being more common (most psykers have at least some form of divination or precog in the form of the Tarot or dreams, but not neccesarily an active, persistant type like Jedi are known to have.) but it does exist and its been noted to be a potential ability about Libriarans (Dark Millenium) and Battle Psykers (IIRC). Precog will be the major benefit for the Republic side, since it will help influence battle strategy and tactics and unlike in the Clone Wars should be free of the "shroud" nonsense. It won't be decisive (since even in TPM it wasn't constant or active) but it will help. Tricks like battle meditation will also be of more value than the ability to flip tanks over

40K's advantages are largerly in numbers, direct energy attacks, and telepathic communication (partiuclarily astropathy- being longer ranged)

In the terms of an actual, overarching battle? Numbers are going to be more relevant than individual capability on anything other than the purely tactical. Direct attacks won't be very relevant (except as an occasional supplement, in the sense of heavy or support weapons or like mortar fire, at best) What is going to prove more important is the command and control and the sensory/communications like functions such individuals will bring to a battlefield, since technology can already match or exceed the "magical" attack abilities in most respects.

I also don't see why the fuck all this dick waving about "high end" feats is occuring. Does anyone seriously believe Palpatine is going to be spamming force storms while the GEoM spamming warp storms in respective universes? This is a fucking galactic conflict, not an episode of Dragonball Z for fuck's sake. The only time we see Palpy spamming Force storms even like that is when he's a decrepit lunatic whose sources of power are questionable (CF Publius' analysis of Palpatine and his intentions WRT the Force) and the GEoM can't do shit unless he has someone to work through.. Not that it matters, since a Force Storms are hyperspace wankery - they open up portals into hyperspace so are distinctly NOT a brute force energy attack - they are basically just the SW version of 40K Vortex weaponry, and the Imperium can produce those far easier on a technological basis (warheads or warp drive equipped ships like the Dominus Astra did) - and they *will* take out starships. Psykers trained as such can open localized such portals (eisenhorn did so, and its shown up as an ability in the 40K RPGS IIRC) and it can probably scale up with collective efforts.

[Connor MacLeod]

The bit of Ravenor vs Kinsky, which is the battle IO was referring to:

This Kinsky was good. Frighteningly so. He did not even begin to sidestep my countermeasures. He went through them, disintegrating them. The psi-echo shat­tered the glass roof of the atrium and all below scattered for cover from the cascading debris.
Kinsky dragged his trap lattices shut around me. I broke through the first, and then struggled to find a chink in the second. He was laughing. He spat darts of pure pain into my golden flanks.
With sheer force of will, I broke out of his trap. The psi-shockwave burst windows down the entire length of the street, and ripped security shutters off their hinge-mounts. I doubled back and started to flee down the road, feeling the dazed Magistratum officers picking themselves up from the asphalt. Kinsky, whirring now with the gut­tural throb of the warp, pursued. The bow-wave of his mind sent Magistratum vehicles and officers flying on either side. Cruisers overturned, buckling and exploding. Men flew backwards into walls and armoured windows.
He was fast. He was faster than me. Stronger than me. His mind was like a daemon-engine.
I soared like a comet out over Formal В into the dark streets of Formal E. He closed on me, like a murder-star, blazing through the heavens. Windows cracked and roof tiles rippled away in the wake of our chase. I went low under the iron bridge at F crossing. He punched through the girder bars, leaving ectoplasm crackling along the handrail. At Tangley Tower, I banked left. He came right through the huge building, filling the minds of the sleep­ing occupants with nightmares. Two of them had
terminal heart attacks. I could feel their lives shutting off as I climbed away through the steep ranges of the admin-istry towers.
With a blue-flame wink, he closed another vice. Bear-trap jaws of agony bit into the trailing limb of my gracious eldar form. I lurched to a halt. My inaudible screams of pain rattled windows and dislodged slates in the city below me.
Kinsky was closing, the blue fireball now transmuting into the form of a black-pelted predator with a gaping maw.
When an animal is caught in a trap, it often gnaws its own leg off to be free. Anguished, I severed a part of myself, left a part of my soul quivering between the bru­tal teeth of the vice, and fled.
I could not fight him. Extended like this, I had nothing like his power. Wounded and hurting, I dropped like a stone into a busy manufactory in E. The furnace pits were blowing sparks, and sweating figures with shroud masks were drawing up the smelting ingots. I fell directly down into one of the workers, a second-line boss called Usno Usnor. I made myself him and hid in his heat-raddled brain.
The blue fireball came down through the roof, hesi­tated, and hovered slowly along the work line. It examined each mind one by one. It probed close. I forgot myself, forgot Gideon Ravenor, and became Usno Usnor. My back ached. My hugely muscled arms glistened with sweat as I wrenched another ingot out of the flames. White heat in my face. Another half-hour until the whis­tle blew shift-change. I was Usno Usnor, torso stung with heat, arms tired, worried that the foreman would dock my pay for being three minutes late on platform today, wor­ried about my wife who had the ague, worried about my son who was mixing with the moodys and had just got an
acid-tat, worried about the food-pail I had left under number five alloy-finer. The others would eat it if they found it. There was good pressed meat in there, and bread, and a cup of pickles...
The blue fireball hovered over the work line for several minutes, and then, frustrated, flew up and away out through the roof.

'Oh dear God-Emperor preserve me...' she stuttered.
+He's not listening.* Kinsky's voice boomed in her head. She looked up into the lofty spaces of the vast eng-inarium. There was nothing there.
Kinsky, moving like a missile down from the roof, look­ing into her terrified, blinking eyes. He made his rushing mind-form thorny, the better to gouge through her flimsy mind walls.
Something hard and furious struck Kinsky's mind from side on, and sent it sparking away across the enginarium vault. In pain, bleeding psi-force, Kinsky recovered, form­ing into a thought-armoured ball, tendons of razor-string lashing out around it.
+Kinsky.+
His assailant appeared. It took the form of a marine predator, a great saw-toothed fish, shimmering with inner light. It swam down around the material stanchions of the nearest drive chamber, topaz energy shining from its deathless eyes.
+Ravenor.+
With a beat of its tail, the twenty-metre fish swam through the air towards the twitching armoured ball. Kin­sky shimmered, re-composing his non-corporeal guise into a giant mantis, shining in a pearlescent light the colour of his psychotic eyes, its massive claws snapping.
+You wanted to go, Kinsky, Let's go.+
Ravenor's tail slammed round and he surged at the psi-form, eyes rolling back as his great jaws gaped to bite.
'What the hell is that?' Preest stammered. Mathuin looked at what she was pointing at. The air was shim­mering, unfocused, above the main space of the enginarium bay. As they watched, a dent appeared in the decking, then another, another two, in the plated wall. Something invisible tore through one of the metal
walkways along the flank of the second drive chamber and it disintegrated, shearing apart, cascading sparks as it tumbled the nine metres to the main deck. Gigantic toothmarks hammered into view on one of the side ductings. It tore loose, venting columns of steam, and flew into the air. High up, it seemed to strike something and bounced back onto the floor with a dreadful clang. Stripes of ice tracked across the deck and vanished as quickly as they had been made. Corposant flames erupted along the railings of an upper walkway.

Other related psyker feats. Still looking for examples of Primaris psykers in direct combat, will get back to that. The energy attacks are Librarians, but the TK stuff comes largely from Patience Kys, who isnt even strong enough to rate soul bonding (yet weak enough not to be an actual threat of possession.) I'll try to get on other examples as I can.

Warrior Brood, page 81

Page 81
[quoute]

'There! There they are,’ said Shaidan, leaning over the pilot-servitor of the Thunderhawk as it powered down through the atmosphere. 'Fire the lascannons on either side of their position. They need support,’
Searing lances of power fired out from the nose of the Thunderhawk, punching great craters into the sand around the Deathwatch team, showering them with debris.
From their altitude, they could see a hooded figure leap from the Vindicator, surrounded by a halo of blue light. It fought its way into one of the craters left by the lascannon fire and started to engage the tyranids at close range, carrying the fight to them rather than waiting for it to be brought to him. He was surrounded by fire and energy.
In his right arm was a force staff of some kind, spinning in a frenzy of warp-energy, spitting bolts of blue into the enveloping swarm. His left arm seemed to be coated in coruscating pulses of power and great javelins of light rushed from his fingertips, incinerating swathes of hormagaunts as they leapt for him, lashing their claws.

Assuming a single hormagaunt is the size of a single person (which it isn't) the low end is about a megajoule (it takes about 100 J per square centimeter to cause third degree flash burns) If we assume "charring" rather than just flash burning, it could get more severe - energy input will require exceeding the boiling point of water (call it 250-300 kilojoules for simplicities sake). Assuming 70 kg for a gaunt (which is conservative, since IA4 suggests they are far more massive than a human) you're going to get 15-20 MJ. If we go withoutright cremation (another possible interpretation) you're going to get into hundreds or thousands of megajoules.

Any one of those should EASILY match comparable feats from Jedi, barring absurd high end shit (like 10,000 Jedi collectively laying waste to Yavin IV in the TotJ comics)

Dawn of War:
Page 85

From his left hand pulsed javelins of blue lightning, which chased after the fleeing greenskins and incinerated them as they tried to dive for cover.

Page 116

Pulses of lightning jousted out from his [Isador's] fingertips, frying orks as they dived for him or incinerating them as they tried to make clear shots in the densely packed muddle of greenskins.

Same rationale as above.. Like Tyranids Orks are bulkier than humans, so this is conservative.

Iron Hands
Page 350

He felt a rush of pride as he saw Librarian Melchor striding into battle, his psychic hood crackling with barely contained esoteric energies and his eyes alive with white fire. The facade of his personality might have been flayed from his mind by the ghost-storm that had assailed him, but his raw psyker-power remained.
A cultist's head melted in the face of a blast of unrestrained, wild psyker-magic. Melchor threw a hateful look at a looming Word Bearer and the Chaos Marine collapsed to his knees, holding gauntleted hands to his armoured head.

Melting a head isn't as impressive as total incineration, but consideirng that melting temp is going to be well above boiling point (CF analysis in Harlequin RE lasers) and a human head being 4-5 kilos (assuming this isnt a grotesquley mutated cultist) this is also worth a megajoule or so of energy.

Crimson Tears
Page 663

Librairian Tyrendian was the last. With a glance back he sent out a bolt of blue-white lightning that plunged into the advancing horde, slicing them open in a gigantic wound, reducing a dozen subhumans to charred skin and scalding steam.

Scarring and the creation of steam is going to involve temps well above the boiling point (abuout around cauterization levles.. so again 15-20 MJ is a good value per person assuming a 70 KG human (These are captured humans who were tortrued and surgically altered by the Dark Eldar, for people wondering.)


Ravenor: Patience Kys, the Wyrd Telekine

Ekkrote lurched under the hi-cal impacts. He wheeled away from Kara, not interested in her any more, and took another bullet in the cheek-guard. He charged Nayl and Kys. Kys met him with her telekinesis, but he was too massive for her to lift. All she could do was stop him in his tracks for a moment. Ekkrote struggled against the invisible barrier and Kys wobbled back a step.

the guy in question was a large, bulky gladiator type.. easily more massive than a normal human.


Ravenor Rogue: Patience Kys trying to stop a bolt round

Page 216

Lucius Worna smiled at her, fired his pistol, and vanished. A cyclonic blur of pink light sucked him away. With a pop of decompression, the teleport cone removed Worna, his weapon and his smile.
All it left behind as it faded was the bolt round, ripping towards her.
Kys caught it. It took all of her telekinetic strength. She stopped the blistering round in mid-air a metre from her body and held it dead, at bay. She fought, her mind bending with the effort. The bolt round, stationary, began to deform and melt against the mind-wall her kine force had thrown up. It thrust against her will, half a metre away, gouging through her telekinetic defence.
She could see it clearly, spinning in space, metal sweating off it in slow, blobby droplets as it superheated.
With a gasp, Kys threw herself down. Released, the bolt round tore over her head and hit the wall behind her with an explosive crump.

Stopping a bolter round may not seem impressive, but there are some things to consider:

Assuming a bolter is equal to a heavy stubber (.50 cal.. reasonable given the statements in the Muniroum manual and ability of bolt rounds to knock people down or penetrate carapace which stubbers can't) - 50 gram bullet at roughly 900 m/s. The bolt was fired from close range (no more than 30 M IIRC) so it could easily be aruged to have taken a tenth of a second to do that (and she had to apply that much force in that much time, rather than, say, over a full second.) which is going to influence the feat.

Another ravenor rogue quote:

The creature lunged at Kys. She met it with her kine-force, and hurled it away from her along the walkway.
That took effort. The creature was strong, vital, bristling with energy, and its chitinous structure was as hard as steel. It landed in an ungainly sprawl, powerful hind limbs skidding and scrabbling for purchase. It sprang up again, undeterred, and charged back towards her. Kys turned and leapt across the gaping walkway section that the acid had removed. She landed beside the dead bounty hunter, held out her hand, and his fallen carbine flew from the deck into her grasp. She turned back and blew the bounding creature in half.

IIRc it was some Tyranid lifeform (gaunt I think) so it would be aas mssive as a human.

I should also note that if there are "discrepancies" - since I note Painrack is trying that "well why didn't they.." line of reasoning, alot of it can be attributed either to the fickleness of the warp or outright opposition by Chaos entities. Warp powers can fluctuate rapidly depending on the stability or instability of the warp (and even by your alleigance.) Stronger at some times and weaker than others (but not significantly so, within an OoM anyhow). Other psykers (or warp based entities, like daemons if they manifest, and they CAN manifest even spontaenously with enough violence and bloodshed.) can oppose or undo psykers (this happens often in battle, actually) and even something as simple as warfare can influence it (large numbers of deaths can trigger turbulent warp activity, up to and including warp storms, opening portals into the warp and unleashing the entities, or futzing with the astronomican and astropathic signals.) Some of these limitations will be relevant in a battle against the Jedi, others won't.

[Serafina]

/bows to Connors knowledge and skill

Excellent analysis.
However, i have one point regarding precognition: "small-scale precog" (perceiving blows before they happen etc.) seems to be quite common in 40K, being classified as a minor power.

Furthermore, specialised Diviners can detect a lot of information, i.e. gathering of audiovisual input over kilometers with pin-point accuracy.

However, actual prediction of the future seems to be a lot harder. Very rough predictions can be made with the Emperors Tarot, but better predictions require more experience and better models, so they are mostly done by the Eldar.

[Connor MacLeod]

However, i have one point regarding precognition: "small-scale precog" (perceiving blows before they happen etc.) seems to be quite common in 40K, being classified as a minor power.

How common though? I know that the ability exists (it shows up in Dark HEresy and I think Rogue Trader) but nothing indicates how "common" a feat it is. It is fairly certain that virtually all Jedi and Sith have it to some degree as it is. Hell, TPM makes it quite clear that "superior reflexes" are attributed to a sort of intuitive short term precog (eg Anakin)

Furthermore, specialised Diviners can detect a lot of information, i.e. gathering of audiovisual input over kilometers with pin-point accuracy.

The same can be said for Force users, but doing stuff like via dreams or Tarot or auto-seances and the like aren't really what I call "short term" abilities either. More strategic than tactical. Stuff like Clairvoyance would be more useful in the short term.

However, actual prediction of the future seems to be a lot harder. Very rough predictions can be made with the Emperors Tarot, but better predictions require more experience and better models, so they are mostly done by the Eldar.

The same is true of Force users, force precog is hardly 100% accurate. That said, we can't quantify the two very well, and it would be a pain in the ass to try. It's simply worth noting that the capabilities exist, and the Jedi would have some sort of edge here. Whether its a major or minor one is up for debate (probably not a decisive one though)

[Serafina]

Well, i merely wanted to point out the capabilites of 40K, regarding divination.

[DarkAscendant]

The best in terms of averages that come to mind are: Most Jedi should have some limited TK, short range precog, and some form of empathy. TK wise they ought to be able to shove several individuals (or battle droids) off their feat, make jumps several times their height (the Padawan from Darth Maul shadow hunter I am remembering), etc. Padawan Obi Wan and Qui-Gon, IMHO could represent the feats of "average" experienced PAdawans or Knights, given the Neimodian reactions and expectations in handling the Jedi. This is also tenative given Shatterpoint IIRC gives some hard limits on some of MAce Windu's feats (TK compared to Yoda.).

Why would the Neimodians' reactions and expectations be used to make a benchmark? What do they know?

[Shroom Man 777]

Weren't they already premeditatedly planning on killing the Jedi before Ewan McGregor and Liam Neeson could get to Naboo, hence the poison gas and droidekas? The Nemoidians' would presumably know a lot about the Jedi since they're from the same verse, are a bunch of slimey cowardly capitalist villains, and planned to murder them efficiently.

[DarkAscendant]

Weren't they already premeditatedly planning on killing the Jedi before Ewan McGregor and Liam Neeson could get to Naboo, hence the poison gas and droidekas?

Ummm, no.

The Nemoidians' would presumably know a lot about the Jedi since they're from the same verse, are a bunch of slimey cowardly capitalist villains, and planned to murder them efficiently.

Again, no. Their plan was laughably ill-prepared and backfired in minutes. And not to mention, made with a serious lack of information regarding Jedi abilities.

[Connor MacLeod]

We've seen in TPM and AOTC that the Jedi rely very much on reptutation and, lets face it, intimidation to keep order. The fac tthe Nemoidians shit themselves is proof of that, as is 200 Jedi thinking they could go to Geonosis (which we also aw backfired SPECTACULARLY)

a reputation isnt much unless the Jedi bluff, amd somehow I doubt the Jedi bluff. Mind you that doesnt mean that they know EVERYTHING about the Jedi either. Say, to within an order of magnitude or so.

[Connor MacLeod]

Oh yeah and WRT TPM there are the droidekas. The Neimodians had a reasonable expectations of the Destroyer droids handling the Jedi, which in turn means they need to at least have some knowledge of what the Jedi can do.

[Connor MacLeod]

My knowledge of 40K is limited to a few of the game rule books I had once upon a time and the internet. Which is saying not much. But I don't recall anything about planetary shielding technology. The CIS can simply glass a few worlds every day until by end of the month there is nothing left of the Imperium of Man.

1.) why would they do that? BDZing worlds destroys the resources on them, not to mention potential customers and slaves, so I question whether they'd go out and do that without good reason or are forced to.

Besides which, that's a good way to piss off the Imperium into "total war" - agianst an enemy they would already be xenophobic against (nevermind the technology heresy). They DO have teleporters and they DO dump munitions through those teleporters into targets. Not a good idea for the Space Marines to decide to teleport virus bombs or cyclonic warheads on to the surface of even planetary-shielded planets.

I will note that planets (important ones at least) can have large scale defense shielding. Terra did, and it has continent-sized hives IIRC (which isn't unuusal either as Hives go, but isn't quite common either) from bombardments that removed the oceans and induced significant tectonic instability in the planet.

Of course, not every world in SW has planetary shielding, either.

The Separatist fleet escape. The Republic is in complete shock, and while Anakin wants to personally rend Grievous limb from limb, the Senate almost immediately accepts a cease-fire treaty offered by the CIS. Grievous isn't too happy about it either, but Dooku's death deprives the Separatists of their charismatic 'glue' that keeps thousands of systems in line. So he goes back to lick his wounds. Besides, for some strange reason, Sidious is silent. The Republic and CIS draft a border and a tenuous 'peace' reigns.

The CIS are already coming off the end of a long and brutal war, and are, as per the OP, politically fragmented - and they have a galaxy-sized DMZ to keep an eye on. I doubt that the logistic advantage typically granted to Star Wars applies, here.

That would just make things even worse really, and they're already going to be facing drawbacks of invading unknown and unexplored territory without the sort o finfrastructure they are usually used to (known hyperspace routes, holonet and subspace networks, etc.) on top of all the crazy shit (warp storms, space whales, take what you like) they're likely to encounter.

The problems are always the same. SW will be a major threat if and when they get their shit together and actually mobilized. The problem (usually) is in the actual mobilization.

Is there any indication that the CIS navy was decisively superior in numbers to the Republic? Shatterpoint is the only bit that comes to mind and Durge Lance but even here, the bits involved appears to be about starfighters and manpower issues, not starships.

Reliable numbers? not off the top of my head. The Clone Wars campaign guide gives a rough breakdown of the REpublic Navy, but it is extremely open ended (it could imply as many as hundreds of thousands or sevreal million warships on one hand, but merely "hundreds" of fleets of hundreds of ships on another.) I would venture somewhere in the millions perhaps as well, since they need billions if not trillions of clones and millions of Acclamators at least to correspond to that (or a lesser number of bigger ships equal to an acclamator.) And I highly doubt their navy was in teh billions, since then they would have guaranteed superiority agianst the Confederates from the get go. That's not including defensive navies though.

Its entirely possible that the Republic maintained sufficient shipyards to maintain parity in terms of their navies. Kuat, Rothana, Correllia and other major shipyards of the SWU remained with the Republic and these were the major military shipyards of the galaxy then.

From what I recall the Republic still maintained the vaster industrial and economic might compared to the Separatists, the Separatists simply had the advantage automation provided (even if they didn't utilize it fully or the mos tintelligenhtly.) and a decade of head start buildup (Whereas the REpublic was playing catchup from the get go)

The Malevolence if anything suggest that the CIS had to concentrate more and more on "superbattleships" so as to offset Republic ships superiority, given that a good number of the TF ships are converted freighters. They may had been built as modular ships that can dedicate themselves to carriers/battleships/transports, but they were based on commercial designs afterall.

I dont recall them building many Subjugators to begin with. They seemed more like a "super weapon" concept if anything, rather than a response to NR super-ships. The Separatists have a long tradition of building highly effective but limited number "specialist" designs of all sorts (The jedi killer type cyborg/droids, droidekas, variations on the BD/SBD concept, etc.) I wouldn't be surprised if the latter proved true for starships also, but I question whether such designs came to dominate their military forces in any degree.

[hongi]

The problems are always the same. SW will be a major threat if and when they get their shit together and actually mobilized. The problem (usually) is in the actual mobilization.

Surely this won't be as much of a problem for the CIS as it would be for the Empire, since one is just coming off a galaxy-wide war and the other has no reason to mobilise for a relatively peaceful galaxy (save for the Rebel Alliance)?

[PainRack]

This difference you wish to draw between chucking fireballs and lightning bolts and non blaster type powers isn't a difference of magnitude or power drawn, but of power manifestation. A telepath could be much stronger and draw far more energy than a pyromancer. His powers won't be flashy, but he could be drawing far more warp energy with far stronger side effects. He'll just be snuffing minds or turning people into meat puppets instead of having flashy lightning displays.

Errr.... The chain of discussion so far.
Shrooms argues that no name pyskers routinely manifest fire, lightning and etc. Most of black ship harvest are relatively high level pyskers.
I argue that the majority of them aren't, and no name pyskers don't routinely manifest fire, lightning.
You come in and say that well, Imperial pyskers talents differ and has no bearing on their warp power.

How on earth is this a rebuttal?

Precog, experience, and expertise on the capabilities and deployment of psychic resources on the field of battle.

And? How does ANY of this have to do with Force powers? The Jedi roles as Generals rests more on their political position and Jedi precognition/thinking than any actual manifestation of Force powers. Their effectiveness also rests on the fact that they routinely inserted into the battle itself, fighting as actual combatents.

Nice black/white falacy. You don't have to be as good as Space Marines to be useful. Besides, Space Marines have powerful psykers with command authority within their ranks.

What balck and white fallacy? Are we even discusing psyker power levels vis a vis Jedi or the Jedi roles? If its the first, my argument was high level powers on the part of the Imperium should had based on the Chief Librarians abilities. Not the use of daemonhosts and etc.
It is HOTh who's arguing that the Jedi/Sith powers are comparable to Imperium pyskers.
If its the second, why the hell should we BOTHER to compare pyskers with Jedi? As commandoes and etc, we should be comparing them to the Imperium equivalent. Which are.... Space Marines and stormtroopers. As a Jedi general, pyskers aren't comparable because.... they AREN"T generals.

1) Psykers don't have to directly affect the battlefield to be highly useful (weather witches and telepaths winning the battle in Only in Death by breaking the enemy, diviners discovering intelligence, etcetera).

Their influence in this sense is highly variable. In Let the Galaxy burn, a short story had the telepath unable to give useful information on the existence of an Imperium assasin sent to kill the governer. In Killing Grounds, said telepath who is being routinely used to scan civilian authorities to give data to the ruling governor, was utterly unable to divine the Sons of Salina base of operations, members, and indeed, was even unable to discover that their leading medicae was leaking supplies to the resistance and was keeping the Son of Salinas resistance leader alive.

2) It's already been proven that a single high grade psyker can win a battle single handedly. A merely strong psyker can therefore tip the balance in favor of his side. A group of even weaker psykers can make up the difference merely by numbers.

And? Was this EVER my contention that the Imperium pyskers aren't effective tactically?

Funny, despite the fact that high power psykers can single handedly change the course of the battle, you continue to claim this about an organization that fields those psykers in the form of Psyker Primaris, Inquisitors, and Librarians and fields teams of weaker but still formidable psykers such as Sanctioned Units and Grey Knights.

So? They're relatively rare enough that they DON"T feature on most battlefields. A thousand Grey Knights is now numerous enough to fight across the Galaxy?PDF don't have pyskers attached to them. Sanctioned pyskers attached to the IG have anywhere from one to ten pyskers attached per regiment, and even here, most of them aren't the high level pyskers capable of actually singlehandly turning the course of battle.
Hell. Even the Inquisitors aren't all pyschic. The Ordo heretic has inquisitors who are considered mentally tough enough to handle Chaos exposure.