SDN World 3 Commentary Thread II

[Steve]

Aren't we only allowed three armored brigades? Similar question for motor infantry; I thought we only got three divisions.

It depends on your Army Tech rating and your Industry. If Army Tech is 4, you get 3 motorized infantry brigades and 1 armored brigade per Industry Level. If Army Tech was 3, you only got them per every two industry levels.

[Steve]

Yeah, what's holding up the rolls?

Um, you said you wanted to reconsider your naval attack in the Pacific? And Wilkens hasn't confirmed whether he's going to get his army blasted apart trying to land under the guns of the Sherman Fort or, alternatively, prove there's a "shadow" where the guns could not possibly reach thus making the assault something other than a waste of time, manpower, and material.

[Thanas]

Aren't we only allowed three armored brigades? Similar question for motor infantry; I thought we only got three divisions.

It depends on your Army Tech rating and your Industry. If Army Tech is 4, you get 3 motorized infantry brigades and 1 armored brigade per Industry Level. If Army Tech was 3, you only got them per every two industry levels.

Siege and I are already working it out. He misread Karmics OOB, methinks (which is easy to do as the thing is a nightmare).

[Lonestar]

*takes toys and goes home!*

[Siege]

Attempt #2, this time incorporating advice received from Thanas (I hope this works out, because hot damn this war is killing my spare time real quick... )

Quick and dirty rundown:

Army of the Netherlands: 2 million men / 130 divisions
5 motorized infantry divisions
5 armoured divisions
25 garrison divisions
35 infantry divisions
30 cavalry divisions
30 artillery divisions

Fortress Holland (principally Waterlinie & Grebbelinie)
1 motorized infantry divisions
18 garrison divisions
12 infantry divisions
5 cavalry divisions
12 artillery divisions

Army Group Brabant
1 motorized infantry divisions
3 armoured divisions
7 garrison divisions
25 infantry divisions
17 cavalry divisions
14 artillery divisions

Army Group North (Harderwijk pocket)
2 mot. Divisions
2 armored divisions
1 marine division
7 garrison divisions
3 infantry divisions


Army of Flanders: 2 million men / 130 divisions
5 motorized infantry divisions
5 armoured divisions
25 garrison divisions
35 infantry divisions
30 cavalry divisions
30 artillery divisions

[Minister of Pigeonry]

Meanwhile....
Chilitina's military was quietly ecoming more prepared for a fight, if neccesary. Army units along the Northern Border were upgrading their state of alert after Spain had pgraded its alert status. As far as most were concerned it was a routine measure to reasure Chilitina's new ally.

The fleet was positively a secret hub of activity though. A security clampdown at naval facilities had been followed by orders to ready as many warships as possible to go to sea. Cruisers, submarines and some destroyers had already been dispatched on more patrols than usual since the "Brazilian incident." Many sailors now guessed whatever was coming was why they had been spending weeks overhauling their ships and getting as many as possible ready for action no matter what the regular maintenance timetables said. The rumors flying around the bunk rooms were many and varied. Perhaps they were going to get the Brazilians back for their little stunt during the freedom conference? Others said it was only a giant drill. Maybe it had something to do with the German and spanish fleets leaving port? No one really knew yet.

Shortly after Uruguay went to RedCon Orange.

[Steve]

Outcome of the Colombian operation out of Cartagena/Santa Marta forces to inflict loss on the Mexican force blockading the north end of the Panama Canal:

[19:10] sbbigsteve:
[19:08] sbbigsteve: //roll-dice 3-sided 6
[19:08] sbbigsteve: sbbigsteve rolled 3 6-sided dice: 3 4 4
[19:08] sbbigsteve: He got past via nighttime maneuver.
[19:08] MGillis123: He escapes!
[19:08] sbbigsteve: Next day, he engages the Caribbean Fleet.
[19:08] sbbigsteve: Of 8 BCs and 7 CLs.
[19:09] MGillis123: I'll roll that, if you don't mind.
[19:09] sbbigsteve: Okay
[19:09] sbbigsteve: Oh, duh
[19:09] MGillis123: If I remember how.
[19:10] sbbigsteve: Stupid AIM.
[19:10] daslacker22: Aim is stupid.
[19:10] sbbigsteve: We kinda forgot about the whole "need witness" thing.
[19:10] MGillis123: (7:10:03 PM) MGillis123: MGillis123 rolled 3 6-sided dice: 5 2 1
[19:10] MGillis123: You'll take our words on this one? Or should we reroll?
[19:10] sbbigsteve: Anyway, Ryan's Cartagena squadrons successfully evade the main Mexican fleet that was to keep them in port.
[19:11] sbbigsteve: The next day he can engage the Caribbean Fleet as desired with 5 cruisers and 10 sub cruisers.
[19:11] *** Your previous message has not been sent. Reason: Maximum length (1024) exceeded. You can recall the last message typed with Ctrl-Up or Up, depending on settings.
[19:11] *** Your previous message has not been sent. Reason: Maximum length (1024) exceeded. You can recall the last message typed with Ctrl-Up or Up, depending on settings.
[19:11] sbbigsteve:
[19:01] sbbigsteve: So let's roll for two things. !) If his forces evade detection by the Main Fleet.
[19:01] sbbigsteve: 2) if successful, their success in attacking the Mexican blockade force.
[19:02] sbbigsteve: We'll use 3d6.
[19:02] sbbigsteve: Any roll below 16 upon engagement has all the Colombian cruisers die horribly.
[19:02] MGillis123: So the Santa Maria fleet bypasses the blockade, goes after the ones around Colon. I'm reading that right?
[19:03] sbbigsteve: Yes. Though they're bypassing the blockade against them and going after the Mexican force blockading the Canal.
[19:03] MGillis123: So they'd probably try and run at night. Assuming they leave with the subs at about the same time.
[19:03] sbbigsteve: Engagement Roll above 6, I'd say, for the subs to land torp hits.
[19:03] sbbigsteve: Roll above 8 and they guarantee the sinking of at least Mexican capital unit.
[19:04] sbbigsteve: Roll above 14 and it's the Great Caribbean Battlewagon-Turkey Shoot.

[19:12] sbbigsteve: Rolled 8, so one of the blockading battlecruisers will get torpedoed while they blast the Colombian cruisers to pieces.
[19:12] sbbigsteve: A couple other CLs will get torpedoes and sunk.

[Beowulf]

Attempt #2, this time incorporating advice received from Thanas (I hope this works out, because hot damn this war is killing my spare time real quick... )

Quick and dirty rundown:

Army of the Netherlands: 2 million men / 130 divisions
5 motorized infantry divisions
5 armoured divisions
25 garrison divisions
35 infantry divisions
30 cavalry divisions
30 artillery divisions

Fortress Holland (principally Waterlinie & Grebbelinie)
1 motorized infantry divisions
18 garrison divisions
12 infantry divisions
5 cavalry divisions
12 artillery divisions

Army Group Brabant
1 motorized infantry divisions
3 armoured divisions
7 garrison divisions
25 infantry divisions
17 cavalry divisions
14 artillery divisions

Army Group North (Harderwijk pocket)
2 mot. Divisions
2 armored divisions
1 marine division
7 garrison divisions
3 infantry divisions


Army of Flanders: 2 million men / 130 divisions
5 motorized infantry divisions
5 armoured divisions
25 garrison divisions
35 infantry divisions
30 cavalry divisions
30 artillery divisions

I peg the Netherlands at Army Tech 4, and Industry 4. That gives a total of 4 armor brigades and 12 motorized infantry brigades. I'm counting 14 motor infantry divisions, or about 10 extra divisions more than is permissible, not even counting the armored divisions (which aren't even buildable at the moment)

[Siege]

Armoured divisions are 2 armoured brigades + 1 cavalry brigade. Since I am Industry 4 I can afford respectively 2 armoured divisions, as well as 12 motorized infantry brigades consisting of 2 motorized infantry brigades plus a brigade of cavalry, i.e. 6 motorized infantry divisions.

Anyway, third time's the charm...

Quick and dirty rundown:

Army of the Netherlands: 2 million men / 130 divisions
3 motorized infantry divisions
2 armored divisions
25 garrison divisions
37 infantry divisions
24 cavalry divisions
32 artillery divisions
7 marine divisions

Fortress Holland (principally Waterlinie & Grebbelinie)
11 garrison divisions
15 infantry divisions
6 cavalry divisions
16 artillery divisions
2 marine divisions

Army Group Brabant
1 motorized infantry divisions
7 garrison divisions
19 infantry divisions
4 marine brigades
18 cavalry divisions
16 artillery divisions

Army Group North (Harderwijk pocket)
2 motorized infantry divisions
2 armored divisions
7 garrison divisions
3 infantry divisions
1 marine division

Army of Flanders: 2 million men / 130 divisions
25 garrison divisions
40 infantry divisions
30 cavalry divisions
35 artillery divisions

[MKSheppard]

Fine he gets his 100m guns (though why they outrange my 105s I'm missing)

You said 75mm to 105mm PACK Howitzers.

The US Army WWII ones were:

75mm M1 PH: 14.6 lb shell to 8.7 km with 3.6 lbs of propellant, weighing 1,500~ lbs
105mm M3 PH: 33 lb shell to 7.5 km with 7.4 lbs of propellant, weighing 2,500~ lbs

The German 100mm schwere Kanone 18 threw a 33 lb shell to 19 km with 12.8 lbs of propellant, and weighed 12,440 lbs.

It's pretty damn amazing what a few extra tons do, when you are moving it in by rail, and then to the front via roads with draft horses.

while Ft Sherman fires off all its heavy shells after a day or two of fighting.

Battery Arizona at Pearl Harbor, which used a turret from the sunken Arizona (the other turret went to Battery Pennslyvania); had room for 280 rounds per gun stowage for ready use under protection.

So this comes down to:

3,360 rounds of 17.7" for 12 guns
4,480 rounds of 13.7" for 16 guns

For Ryan's coastal forts. In the era before radar guidance, 6% is a good hit rate.

So this equates to the following rates:

201 x 17.7" hits
268 x 13.7" hits

So sorry, but your entire fleet was either sunk, or forced to retire home with crippling damage after trying to engage the forts.

I'm not using the beach as my main axis of supply which you seem to be assuming. You have repeatedly failed at reading the map where each of these hooks is designed to be short forward jumps that quickly re-unite with the overland advance.

Wonderful. What happens when your rate of advance is slowed down by heavier than expected resistance, accidents on the main route of advance, artillery shelling, etc. Can your men hold out long enough to be relieved if the schedule is disrupted?

This seems to be a...pardon the term...a landing too far.

Particularly in a heavy malaria zone full of swamps, etc, which channelize the routes that you can take -- I mean, even with the increased infrastructure Ryan has compared to OTL Panama, there's only so much you can do with the region.

Basically, you thought you could do a quick series of amphibious assaults to clear the way for your troops and seize the canal by a quick coup de main in a lightning war and hand a fait accompli to Ryan; when in reality things would be much more difficult.

[Steve]

The only landing in dispute right now is his Atlantic side one he was planning near Fort Sherman; the ones he commenced in the Pacific rolled high and prevailed. That is all I am going to say on the matter.

As for his Colon-area landing, yeah, Wilkens, sorry, but if you persist in that it's gonna be a horrific experience.

[Dark Hellion]

Since Steve set it up so well I would like to add that most militaries frown upon you unloading your seamen in another man's Colon. Hope the imagery helps image the horror of the experience.

[Steve]

Since Steve set it up so well I would like to add that most militaries frown upon you unloading your seamen in another man's Colon. Hope the imagery helps image the horror of the experience.

.......

Okay, I'm going to give you a mod-hammering on principle.

*picks up Modnir*

[CmdrWilkens]

<snip minutiae>

I'm not using the beach as my main axis of supply which you seem to be assuming. You have repeatedly failed at reading the map where each of these hooks is designed to be short forward jumps that quickly re-unite with the overland advance.

Wonderful. What happens when your rate of advance is slowed down by heavier than expected resistance, accidents on the main route of advance, artillery shelling, etc. Can your men hold out long enough to be relieved if the schedule is disrupted?

This seems to be a...pardon the term...a landing too far.

Particularly in a heavy malaria zone full of swamps, etc, which channelize the routes that you can take -- I mean, even with the increased infrastructure Ryan has compared to OTL Panama, there's only so much you can do with the region.

Basically, you thought you could do a quick series of amphibious assaults to clear the way for your troops and seize the canal by a quick coup de main in a lightning war and hand a fait accompli to Ryan; when in reality things would be much more difficult.

Ummm did you see my rolls for overland success? My southern hooks have ALREADY been met by my overland advance. I only hooked to just past Santiago (and when I went back and looked at the march distances I shortened one of them up). Anyway as of D+5 I have 8 Corps in or around Santiago having suffered minimal casualties while simultaneously destroying slightly more than 2 divisions worth of Ryan's troops. I did the math elsewhere but right now taking the Atlantic hooks out of the equation entirely you get this: I have 24 Divisions on line with 12 more in reserve opposing 2 Fortress divisions, roughly 4 Divisions remaining of the 7 infantry divisions in the field in Panama, and the approximately 13 divisions he will have maanged to bring up to Cuidad by this point (1 Div/18 hr starting at 0001 on D+2) by early morning on D+6 his 14th shoudl be in place so that would give him 18 field and 2 fortress divisions against (taking casualties in to account) 22 or 23 Divisions with 12 in reserve. I still have a clear superiority in numbers and the question will be whether or not I can run the last 100 mi to Cuidad before he can bring up sufficient reinforcements to stop me. That has ALWAYS been the main point of contention and the intent of the Atlantic hooks was always to present a road block to any attempt to bring up reinforcements so now it becomes more of a slugging match but it was ALWAYS going to be a slugging match, I was just hoping to make a little more favorable.

[Steve]

A few things to ask players, for input purposes.

A) Unit times. Currently it takes 6 months to raise a new infantry or cavalry unit, or a reservist artillery formation, and an entire year for a new motorized unit, armored unit, Armored recon battalion, or active artillery brigade. Should the year-long cost items be reduced to 6 months as well?

Also, said units usually take 2 years to reach max effectiveness, 18 months if a brigade of troops from an active unit is added to act as a central cadre of experienced personnel. This was suggested to reflect the fact that it takes time for units to work together well and to get the training and experience that lets them be maximally effective in operation. I was pondering, though, if this is getting too "nuts-and-boltsy" for the game and if we should just have the unit ready to fight upon completion without pondering "how effective would they be?"

(Note that activating a reservist formation would still require 6 months of time for them to be active force quality.)

B) Uniform Arty Brigade size. To borrow from LibArc's STGOD a bit, the Arty Brigade could be 100 medium and heavy guns, the Siege Arty 50 heavy guns or 25 railroad guns. Note this would only apply from here on and not retroactively if a player's forces were already carefully quantified.

C) There is no C. Okay, there is. I seek commentary upon elaboration of the Aircraft acquisition as I posted tonight on the rule page: "The basic cost of aircraft is 1 point for ten aircraft, construction time of 1 month, though training takes 3 months from start of building for basic operation and 6 for full effectiveness for new squadrons. Larger bomber aircraft are 1 point for 2 aircraft. Bomb or aircraft-carrying Zeppelins will be 5 points/6 months." Note that this means 6 months before your new squadron, if you're raising a new one, would actually be in service. Aircraft are cheap anyway so I'd like you to keep the cost for the first quarter, reflecting that as the aircraft are trained in they require replacement as some units fail (aircraft did this back then sometimes) or need parts replacement from damage.

[DarthShady]

So, I finally found some time to work on my Orbat. I know the mods said that they would do it for me, but I figure I save them the trouble if I do it first, so here it is. I finished my Navy, and will now work on my army and air force.

I'm posting the navy here for mod approval.

Navy

(Focus 2: Total combat fleet tonnage of 300,000 Standard Displacement. Adds 40,000T shipyard capacity. Combined Industry/Economy level of 4.)

Cruisers

10 x Heavy Cruisers - Pensacola class cruiser("Junak" class cruiser) - (9100 tons) - Total: 91000 tons
8 x Light Cruisers - Emerald class - "Zmija" class (7580 tonnes) - Total: 60640 tons

Monitors

6 x Monitors - Erebus class monitor -"Tragac" class( 8,000 tons) - Total: 48000 tons

Destroyer leaders

12 x destroyer leaders - Thornycroft type leader - ( 1,480 tons) - Total: 17760 tons

Destroyers

30 x destroyers - Gladius II class (Caldwell class) (1,020 tons) - Total: 30600 tons

Submarines

14 x submarines - German Type U 139 submarine (1,930 tons) - Total: 27020 tons
10 x AA-1 class submarine(1,107 tons) - Total: 11070 tons

Minesweepers

19 x minesweepers - Hunt class minesweeper (721 tons) - Total: 13699 tons

Grand Total: 299789 tons

[Ryan Thunder]

I did the math elsewhere but right now taking the Atlantic hooks out of the equation entirely you get this: I have 24 Divisions on line with 12 more in reserve opposing 2 Fortress divisions, roughly 4 Divisions remaining of the 7 infantry divisions in the field in Panama, and the approximately 13 divisions he will have maanged to bring up to Cuidad by this point (1 Div/18 hr starting at 0001 on D+2) by early morning on D+6 his 14th shoudl be in place so that would give him 18 field and 2 fortress divisions against (taking casualties in to account) 22 or 23 Divisions with 12 in reserve. I still have a clear superiority in numbers and the question will be whether or not I can run the last 100 mi to Cuidad before he can bring up sufficient reinforcements to stop me. That has ALWAYS been the main point of contention and the intent of the Atlantic hooks was always to present a road block to any attempt to bring up reinforcements so now it becomes more of a slugging match but it was ALWAYS going to be a slugging match, I was just hoping to make a little more favorable.

1 division per 18 hours per track for 3 days before I have to allow 2-way traffic to run again, reducing the throughput to one division per 18 hours per two tracks. I have two lines through the Gap, so that's four divisions per day to begin with.

By D+5 I have two artillery-heavy armies and extensive field fortifications in place to oppose you about 10 km from the canal, with more divisions arriving every day.

[Thanas]

A few things to ask players, for input purposes.

A) Unit times. Currently it takes 6 months to raise a new infantry or cavalry unit, or a reservist artillery formation, and an entire year for a new motorized unit, armored unit, Armored recon battalion, or active artillery brigade. Should the year-long cost items be reduced to 6 months as well?

if so, the cost should be raised. Say, give players the choice of paying 3 points over a year or 8 points for six months.

Also, said units usually take 2 years to reach max effectiveness, 18 months if a brigade of troops from an active unit is added to act as a central cadre of experienced personnel. This was suggested to reflect the fact that it takes time for units to work together well and to get the training and experience that lets them be maximally effective in operation. I was pondering, though, if this is getting too "nuts-and-boltsy" for the game and if we should just have the unit ready to fight upon completion without pondering "how effective would they be?"

No, I am against that.

(Note that activating a reservist formation would still require 6 months of time for them to be active force quality.)

B) Uniform Arty Brigade size. To borrow from LibArc's STGOD a bit, the Arty Brigade could be 100 medium and heavy guns, the Siege Arty 50 heavy guns or 25 railroad guns. Note this would only apply from here on and not retroactively if a player's forces were already carefully quantified.

If this applies from here on in, I will retroactively redo my OOB, because so far I am operating under the assumption that a heavy arty is 6-9 siege guns and that a normal arty is 50-60 guns.

C) There is no C. Okay, there is. I seek commentary upon elaboration of the Aircraft acquisition as I posted tonight on the rule page: "The basic cost of aircraft is 1 point for ten aircraft, construction time of 1 month, though training takes 3 months from start of building for basic operation and 6 for full effectiveness for new squadrons. Larger bomber aircraft are 1 point for 2 aircraft. Bomb or aircraft-carrying Zeppelins will be 5 points/6 months." Note that this means 6 months before your new squadron, if you're raising a new one, would actually be in service. Aircraft are cheap anyway so I'd like you to keep the cost for the first quarter, reflecting that as the aircraft are trained in they require replacement as some units fail (aircraft did this back then sometimes) or need parts replacement from damage.

I think what we most need on clarification is what qualifies as a heavy bomber.

[Thanas]

Link to German advance, day 3 of the fighting.

Just FYI. Not everything is 100% accurate, but this should give you a pretty good overview.

[Thanas]

- Nevermind

[Ryan Thunder]

Hey, in case Wilks here thought he could just sneak this in under the radar; he's invading Columbia with a Spanish colony as his base of operations. This is an act of war, yet I see no declaration from them.

[Thanas]

They don't need to declare war against you just to let his troops march through their territory. It is not like the Spanish fleet is shelling your posssessions, is it?

[Ryan Thunder]

They don't need to declare war against you just to let his troops march through their territory. It is not like the Spanish fleet is shelling your posssessions, is it?

They're enabling his invasion. Without them he'd only be able to make amphibious landings that would be much easier to repel due to supply bottlenecks.

That means that even if they want to pretend they aren't at war with me now, they will be soon enough, once I've reclaimed what's mine and moved on to punitive actions.

[Minister of Pigeonry]

Spain declared neutrality in the conflict. The Mexicans were permitted to move troops through Costa Rica in an agreement made quite a while back. Not like I could really say no, given I only have a few guard units there. Really, if they wanted, they could just march through at anytime, agreement or no agreement.

[Thanas]

They don't need to declare war against you just to let his troops march through their territory. It is not like the Spanish fleet is shelling your posssessions, is it?

They're enabling his invasion. Without them he'd only be able to make amphibious landings that would be much easier to repel due to supply bottlenecks.

That means that even if they want to pretend they aren't at war with me now, they will be soon enough, once I've reclaimed what's mine and moved on to punitive actions.

Well, just think about that really carefully and remember who they all have defensive alliances with.