SD+SB in Middle Earth

Sr.mal · Post by **Sr.mal** » 2003-02-14 01:24pm

phongn wrote:
Sr.mal wrote:I agree with the standard rifle being the M-14 its beefy, reliable as hell, and can be easily reparied. Dont discount smgs. At close range having an FNP-90 can be lethal.
The P90 has some soldierproofing issues, AFAIK. For that reason alone I would not want to use it.

A good alternative would be the German MP-38 ,not to sure about that designation, the 9MM parabellum rounds have penetrating power at close range.
You're probably thinking of the MP5 family. They also have an MP7 that was shown on the board a short awhile ago and might be a superior alternative to a simply pistol (roughly the same size); but we don't have the 4.6mm ammunition.

If we could get them having a few RPG-7's with HE rounds instead of shaped charges will do nicely to stop a charge.
No RPGs.

No no no no, the MP-38 was the German smg during WW2 thats the one I'm talking about. It's made of stamped sheet metal. It is very easy to manufacture.

Stravo · Post by **Stravo** » 2003-02-14 01:25pm

You'll probably need someone to chronicle this adventure and all that we do for posterity.

Typhonis 1 · Post by **Typhonis 1** » 2003-02-14 01:42pm

Getting hydrogen is easy if we can set up a weaterwheel electric turbine((IE get a waterwheel to spin a magnet near a coil of cpoper wire)) we can use the electricity to crack water for hydrogen

Typhonis 1 · Post by **Typhonis 1** » 2003-02-14 01:45pm

and as for a rifle the Galil ARm in the 7.62 shoud be good ,it also uses the Kalashnikov action if I remeber correctly and accepts an M203 undermount

Patrick Ogaard · Post by **Patrick Ogaard** » 2003-02-14 01:46pm

Stravo wrote:You'll probably need someone to chronicle this adventure and all that we do for posterity.

Which brings up another important point:

Winning the hearts and minds of enemies and friends alike.

Stage 1: Begin the artisanal production of rag paper, getting as close to mass production as possible.

Stage 2: Build an effective printing press of simple design.

Stage 3: Set about producing suitable propaganda materials. This is where skilled writers and comic book illustrators (even amateur types) would be very useful.

Stage 4: Continue with previous operations and swamp Middle Earth with anything that's fit to print (and spin it to make Sauron's side look bad). Exports of eventual agricultural surpluses can be used to open initial distribution channels.

Leaflets, broadsheets and posters will then be used to win over as many potential allies as possible, and to render neutral as many potential enemies as possible.

Typhonis 1 · Post by **Typhonis 1** » 2003-02-14 01:58pm

How long after we arrive(lets say we do have a 19 year window))till Arragorn or Gandalf arrive to see what we are up too?

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-02-14 02:06pm

Typhonis 1 wrote:How long after we arrive(lets say we do have a 19 year window))till Arragorn or Gandalf arrive to see what we are up too?

The Fellowship begins in one year. If we want to wait for 19 years we would be squandering much of our advantage in terms of knowing the enemy's plans ahead of time, not to mention the fact that we'd all be getting older.

I'd say that at the one year mark, we send a sniper team composed of Rob Wilson and a few other skilled individuals to the forests near Isengard and take out Saruman. This ought to fuck up their two-pronged attack nicely.

Typhonis 1 · Post by **Typhonis 1** » 2003-02-14 02:10pm

*VEG* let em use Barret 82 .50 cal sniper rifles?

phongn · Post by **phongn** » 2003-02-14 02:14pm

Typhonis 1 wrote:*VEG* let em use Barret 82 .50 cal sniper rifles?

IIRC, Rob is skilled in the L96 and probably should use what he knows.

Sr.mal · Post by **Sr.mal** » 2003-02-14 02:19pm

I could use my 20x scope on my Muaser k98 range of 1000 yards, boom headshot.

Crayz9000 · Post by **Crayz9000** » 2003-02-14 02:29pm

Darth Wong wrote:I'd say that at the one year mark, we send a sniper team composed of Rob Wilson and a few other skilled individuals to the forests near Isengard and take out Saruman. This ought to fuck up their two-pronged attack nicely.

Well, in the book, Saruman only builds an army because he wants to rival Sauron... but yeah, eliminating Saruman would remove the biggest problem with traveling through the Gap of Rohan.

Keevan_Colton · Post by **Keevan_Colton** » 2003-02-14 02:36pm

Well, I'm now at 77 in the standings, a bit better than 82.

As regards the firearms, creating weapons to utilise the surplus shotgun ammo we will have not be that difficult...and would give us some very effective local troops.

I do agree standardized weapons for our people is the way to go, do we have anyone in the group who has real experience with firearms maintenence (besides that which the military people will have).

Durandal · Post by **Durandal** » 2003-02-14 03:05pm

Stravo wrote:You'll probably need someone to chronicle this adventure and all that we do for posterity.

I was speaking with Phong about it a few days ago and suggested that this would be an interesting fanfic challenge. I'd love to see what you come up with if you decide to write it.

Balrog · Post by **Balrog** » 2003-02-14 03:23pm

Regarding the Nazgul, they are not immune to physical weapons AFAIK. It should be quite possible to shoot them from long range before they can affect you with any of their close-range antics.

That would still require one to go find a Nazgûl and actually shooting it without its aura of fear effecting said person. They don't exactly go wandering about the countryside in bright neon colors while listening to some of Mordor's Top 20 Hits on their boomboxes

Along with the Eye, Sauron (and Saruman) do have many spies, and unless the base guards have a policy of shoot-everything-on-site, the base and any attack force might well be under 24-hour watch.

That, along with depending on where the base is, could mean there couldd be a couple thousand orcs, trolls, and other bad people at the doorstep in a couple of years

Post by **AdmiralKanos** » 2003-02-14 03:26pm

Balrog wrote:
Regarding the Nazgul, they are not immune to physical weapons AFAIK. It should be quite possible to shoot them from long range before they can affect you with any of their close-range antics.
That would still require one to go find a Nazgûl and actually shooting it without its aura of fear effecting said person. They don't exactly go wandering about the countryside in bright neon colors while listening to some of Mordor's Top 20 Hits on their boomboxes

And why would we have to hunt them down? We're building a base of operations; if they come to us, we can take 'em out at a range of hundreds of yards.

Along with the Eye, Sauron (and Saruman) do have many spies, and unless the base guards have a policy of shoot-everything-on-site, the base and any attack force might well be under 24-hour watch.

Through solid walls from a kilometre away? What good is that going to do them? They're certainly not going to be able to enter the base without authorization.

That, along with depending on where the base is, could mean there couldd be a couple thousand orcs, trolls, and other bad people at the doorstep in a couple of years

No, there won't. Perhaps you didn't read our plans for clearing out a defensive perimeter around the base, along with the usual mechanized patrols, recon, etc. Nobody gets close to this base unless we want them to. And with .50cal MG emplacements on all 4 corners, we have the power to "dissuade" any interlopers from approaching.

Connor MacLeod · Post by **Connor MacLeod** » 2003-02-14 03:46pm

Two thoughts:

1.) When does Saruman get the Palantir? Maybe we can take that away from him and prevent him from contacting Sauron.

2.) Assuming he DOES contact Sauron, maybe we can tempt him into betraying/attacking Isengard by bribery via technology (not too much though - just enough to tempt him and maybe aid him somewhat now, get him to ignore Rohan and to kick Sauron in the nads, with the promise of more technological aid in the future. With the "alliances" already formed with other groups (Gondor, Rohan - I say kill Wormtongue, esp after Saruman is toast, etc.) it might be probable to marshal enough forces to put the hurt on Mordor, esp if we can get some sort of crude firearms or equivalents underway.

Once Sauron/Mordor is gutted (or at least knocked back) we execute Saruman (sniper) and decimate the orcs.

Post by **Sea Skimmer** » 2003-02-14 03:47pm

Just to address various things I've seen brought up, without bothering with quotes.

On infrared imagers for infantry weapons. There are a couple models being toyed around with, and goggles as well. However reliability and the need for high-end batteries would limit their usefulness.

Shotguns and SMG' are useless. The P90 may look good, but in fact it is highly prone to magazine jams and other faults, only 3 IIRC nations bought it, and one Thailand is already discarding them. By the time you can use an MP-5 effectively, you can't put out enough rounds to stop a charge. Same for shotguns. There both good for close quarter's offensive operations, but not defense.

A 9mm JHP round has more then enough stopping power, as does 5.56 JHP. Both might have trouble going through armor though. However even 5.56 ball will work just fine. It's more then effective enough at the ranges 90% of us could hit at.

Real high caliber weapons like the M82 look good, but they offer a capability we don't need. At such ranges where better off bringing more mortar ammunition. And the M82 is too heavy for one man to carry it assembled.

Connor MacLeod · Post by **Connor MacLeod** » 2003-02-14 03:48pm

Another thought. If those dumbass Westernesse blades are the only way to kill a wraith, why not dispatch a group to the Barrows to recover some (maybe Bombadil would help?) and melt em into bullets or arrows.

Then we use snipers to fuck over the Ringwraiths one by one, as well as anything else we might run into.

Post by **NecronLord** » 2003-02-14 03:50pm

AdmiralKanos wrote:Through solid walls from a kilometre away? What good is that going to do them? They're certainly not going to be able to enter the base without authorization.

To be fair the Palantiri (seeing stones. Sauron and the Witch King have one each as well) is able to, when used by a significantly stron willed user see anywhere they choose. However as long as we speak english with each other, and keep all our text in english they won't be a major advantage (though he could possibly see our diagrams without the labels their utility is limited).

The best soloution to that is to get out own, there used to be one on amun sul (wethertop) or we could rob it from saruman (after our snipers blow his brains out of course.) as demonstrated by saruman, having one nearby means that the remote user is locked into the vision of that one, and then you can simply throw a rug over it.

Thats the soloution to one security risk.

Balrog · Post by **Balrog** » 2003-02-14 03:54pm

And why would we have to hunt them down? We're building a base of operations; if they come to us, we can take 'em out at a range of hundreds of yards.

Which is fine and dandy, while you're in your base.

Through solid walls from a kilometre away? What good is that going to do them? They're certainly not going to be able to enter the base without authorization.

No, but "the enemy has many spies, birds, beasts" seems to not ring a bell. Are you going to shoot down any bird that comes within a kilometer of the base? And how are you going to stop The Eye from watching?

No, there won't. Perhaps you didn't read our plans for clearing out a defensive perimeter around the base, along with the usual mechanized patrols, recon, etc. Nobody gets close to this base unless we want them to. And with .50cal MG emplacements on all 4 corners, we have the power to "dissuade" any interlopers from approaching.

But they don't have the range to disrupte a well-laid siege of the base, short of charging out on Humvees into who knows what kind of trap set up, and if Nazgûl on Fell beasts come soaring in out of the clouds, their fear just might send the whole base into a panic.

Patrick Ogaard · Post by **Patrick Ogaard** » 2003-02-14 03:59pm

Crayz9000 wrote:
Darth Wong wrote:I'd say that at the one year mark, we send a sniper team composed of Rob Wilson and a few other skilled individuals to the forests near Isengard and take out Saruman. This ought to fuck up their two-pronged attack nicely.
Well, in the book, Saruman only builds an army because he wants to rival Sauron... but yeah, eliminating Saruman would remove the biggest problem with traveling through the Gap of Rohan.

Saruman would be the easiest target, the weakest link. That does make it an almost inevitable action. Saruman's practically got a bull's-eye painted on his forehead.

Obviously, a few someones have to bring bipods and ghillie suits. And someone with real firearms skills could get away with bringing along a custom rifle instead of one of the standard designs.

Cpt_Frank · Post by **Cpt_Frank** » 2003-02-14 03:59pm

Sr.mal wrote:No no no no, the MP-38 was the German smg during WW2 thats the one I'm talking about. It's made of stamped sheet metal. It is very easy to manufacture.

The MP-38 and MP38/40 had a pathetic range, no select fire switch and lacked forward handguns.
The PPSch-41 has better range, is easier to manufacture and maintain and it's more reliable.

As for assault rifles, AK-100 series, preferably in .223 since it's generally superior to 7.62 M1943.

Keevan_Colton · Post by **Keevan_Colton** » 2003-02-14 04:00pm

Cpt_Frank wrote:
Sr.mal wrote:No no no no, the MP-38 was the German smg during WW2 thats the one I'm talking about. It's made of stamped sheet metal. It is very easy to manufacture.
The MP-38 and MP38/40 had a pathetic range, no select fire switch and lacked forward handguns.
The PPSch-41 has better range, is easier to manufacture and maintain and it's more reliable.

As for assault rifles, AK-100 series, preferably in .223 since it's generally superior to 7.62 M1943.

Remember though, the scenario stipulates specific types of ammo we have...so we need guns that can use those types of ammo.

Post by **Sea Skimmer** » 2003-02-14 04:02pm

Balrog wrote: But they don't have the range to disrupte a well-laid siege of the base, short of charging out on Humvees into who knows what kind of trap set up, and if Nazgûl on Fell beasts come soaring in out of the clouds, their fear just might send the whole base into a panic.

50cal BGM is still lethal at three miles and can reach further. Do you realize how many troops you need to lay siege over such an area? And we'd still be able to move out, set up mortars and pound section of the lines to bits.

Post by **NecronLord** » 2003-02-14 04:02pm

Balrog wrote:And how are you going to stop The Eye from watching?

The eye is a palantir. The big glowy routine in the film is simply there to look nice. The book directly contradicts this, when sauron had gollum he personally tortured him, and gollum states that he has four fingers on one of his hands. The meathod used by saurman (a palantir with a cloth over it) to avoid being spied upon will work equally well for us.

Another security problem is the women in Wongs plan. We'll have to build an outbuilding to prevent them observing what we don't want them to while doing what we want them to.