nBSG question and variation

[Bilbo]

Okay, lets say the day before the cylons attack, or better yet an hour before the attack, the Colonial Fleet gets its latest patch update to its Nortons 10,000. This new patch of course completely closes the Cylon vulnerability in the Colonial Fleet.

Of course the Cylons do not learn of this until they launch their attack and start using their little trick only to have it fail. What happens now? Does it become a slugfest or does the Colonial fleet completely kick ass until the Cylon fleet as a whole uses its superior jump tech to run like scalded dogs?

[RedImperator]

The Cylons still have tactical and strategic surprise, which is going to be worth a lot of casualties in the opening minutes. They also have however many infiltrators to raise hell. However, given how badly Galactica and Pegasus owned basestars in stand-up fights, I would expect this one goes to the Colonials.

[Kingmaker]

The Colonies take this. I expect things go badly at first, though not as badly, what with the not being dead in space. We saw in the series (such as during the attack on the Resurrection Ship and the Battle of New Caprica) that even an old battlestar like the Galactica can take a far worse beating than a baseship, and a Mercury-class battlestar can tear apart a baseship with one volley from her forward gun batteries. Also, Vipers appear to be far superior to the Cylon raiders, even when badly outnumbered.

Before, the Cylons were machine-gunning guys in the water. Now it's more like they've caught a big guy with his pants down.
Do we ever get an indication of how large the two fleets are before the war?

[Sarevok]

The colonial fleet had 120 battlestars according to Tighs statement in the pilot. The Cylon fleet size unknown but presumably smaller.

[Mayabird]

A note: in-universe, the Cylon success was a huge surprise even to the Cylons. They were expecting victory but with heavy casualties even after screwing over the Colonial computers. In a straight-out fight, the Colonials could take them and they knew it.

[paladin]

The colonial fleet had 120 battlestars according to Tighs statement in the pilot. The Cylon fleet size unknown but presumably smaller.

Spoiler

Battlestar Galactica: The Plan gives a better idea of the Cylon fleet. Their total fleet size was probably larger then the Colonials. There is one scene where a group of basestars are preparing for a nuke against a planet. The number seemed to be at least a few dozen basestars.

[Skylon]

The colonial fleet had 120 battlestars according to Tighs statement in the pilot. The Cylon fleet size unknown but presumably smaller.

Spoiler

Battlestar Galactica: The Plan gives a better idea of the Cylon fleet. Their total fleet size was probably larger then the Colonials. There is one scene where a group of basestars are preparing for a nuke against a planet. The number seemed to be at least a few dozen basestars.

Considering the Cylons are machines, it would make sense that they could build more ships than the Colonials. The Basestars always seemed a one-to-one match against Galactica, and presumably the rest of its class (through season 1 and most of 2, Galactica jumped at the sight of a Basestar). This doesn't suggest Galactica couldn't take on a Basestar, but it would be risky, and likely take heavy damage, which it couldn't afford to take given the rag-tag fleet's unique situation. Valkyrie-classes we never see stand up against Basestars, but given the Pegasus' record against Cylon ships, I'd assume they could hold up pretty well.

It always appeared to me the Cylons took a quantity over quality approach to their strategy.

[Sarevok]

The cylon combat strategy is a sound one as long as they don't fight like idiots. Their raiders are essentially a ftl capable missile bus that can deliver pin point nuclear strikes against warships or planetary targets lightyears away. A smart basestar commander would cripple battlestars from a solar system away using raiders salvoing overwhelming numbers of nuclear missiles. War is not won by honorable capital ship duels with battlestars but dirty underhanded tactics like nuke spamming with cheap expendable Raiders. Cylons exactly did that during surprise attack. It was ruthless alpha strikes from basestars and their fighters against a fleet disabled by a dirty trick that won the day. Unfortunately all the basestar commanders they sent after galactica and peagasus seem have forgotten those lessons pretty quickly....

[RedImperator]

The attack on the fleet yards seen in Razor give a pretty good sense of what the Colonials would be facing. The Cylons jump in without warning and pound the hell out of the shipyard immediately; even with their defensive systems operating, the yard would have taken severe damage and the Colonials likely would have lost some ships.

[Uraniun235]

The cylon combat strategy is a sound one as long as they don't fight like idiots. Their raiders are essentially a ftl capable missile bus that can deliver pin point nuclear strikes against warships or planetary targets lightyears away. A smart basestar commander would cripple battlestars from a solar system away using raiders salvoing overwhelming numbers of nuclear missiles. War is not won by honorable capital ship duels with battlestars but dirty underhanded tactics like nuke spamming with cheap expendable Raiders. Cylons exactly did that during surprise attack. It was ruthless alpha strikes from basestars and their fighters against a fleet disabled by a dirty trick that won the day. Unfortunately all the basestar commanders they sent after galactica and peagasus seem have forgotten those lessons pretty quickly....

You're assuming rather a lot with regard to the accuracy of Raider FTL. After all, if they're really so accurate, there would be no need at all for an elaborate backdoor trick (which, even with it in play, the Cylons didn't think they would have succeeded as well as they did); you could just jump in a nuke-loaded Raider to each known military installation and city.

Hell, if FTL was so accurate, you wouldn't need Raiders at all; just missile buses fitted with jump drives. It's not even that far from abandoning even the notion of having Battlestars and Basestars at all, and just aiming bombs with attached FTL drives at each other, at which point any planet-bound (or even orbit-bound space station!) city or installation has no chance for defense or survival.


But somehow, we never see that tactic employed. Hmm. I wonder why that is. Could it be because the accuracy of those FTL jumps isn't quite up to it? Nah, it must be that everyone's just retarded. That makes more sense.

[Uraniun235]

Considering the Cylons are machines, it would make sense that they could build more ships than the Colonials. The Basestars always seemed a one-to-one match against Galactica, and presumably the rest of its class (through season 1 and most of 2, Galactica jumped at the sight of a Basestar). This doesn't suggest Galactica couldn't take on a Basestar, but it would be risky, and likely take heavy damage, which it couldn't afford to take given the rag-tag fleet's unique situation.

I think the bigger problem is that Galactica is basically at half-strength what with the starboard flight pod being out of service (and having mostly old Vipers), and we never see them try to toss any ship-to-ship nuclear missiles at the Cylons. When Pegasus and Galactica went up against the two Basestars and Resurrection Ship, we saw that Galactica's guns were still quite capable of ripping into a Basestar. With two pods full of the latest Vipers to sweep the inferior Raiders out of the sky and reloads for the nuclear missile inventory, a fully-armed old-type Battlestar might well be much more potent than we ever saw Galactica.

[Sarevok]

Uraniun235:

Don't get me wrong. I am not one of those people claiming cylons could kill a star destroyer by jumping a raider inside the reactor (yes that was an actual arguement on spacebattles). But their jump drive is still accurate enough to place raiders within a few tens of kilometers of a moving ship. All the raider has to do is to quickly dash the remaining distance. Now the question is why they don't do that ? I don't have an answer either. It is a mystery why the cylons delibarately expose their fragile basestars to gunfire when they have FTL capable fighters.

Secondly I don't think Colonial ship to ship missiles will be useful against basestars. As we saw in season 4 episode "The Hub" basestars were engaging themselves in the pivotal moment of cylon civil war. They used their missiles like SAMs to shoot down incoming missiles. It may not be as impressive as battlestar flak barrage but it should stop the occasional nuclear missile. Battlestars dont have the sheer numbers of missile launchers to fire point defense overwhelming salvos like Baseships. The only time we saw missile tubes was in season 3 episode "the eye of jupiter". The missiles were intended for ground bombardment. I guess they could finish of a damaged capital ship too but is unlikely to penetrate a basestars missile defense.

Both battlestars and basestars have their strengths and weaknesses and their effectiveness depends on how they are used. A battlestar has tremendous armor, excellent fighters and formidable short range gunfire. It would and does tear apart basestars when it catches one at close distance. On the other hand a basestar has superior FTL and long range missiles and ability to attack at stand off ranges with raiders. By keeping distance a basestar can overwhelm a battlestar with missiles and fighters with minimum damage to itself. Victory depends on the ship commander to use their vessels advantages and exploit the enemys short comings rather than a simplistic "basestar sucks battlestar rocks" conclusion.

[sirocco]

Uraniun235:

Don't get me wrong. I am not one of those people claiming cylons could kill a star destroyer by jumping a raider inside the reactor (yes that was an actual arguement on spacebattles). But their jump drive is still accurate enough to place raiders within a few tens of kilometers of a moving ship. All the raider has to do is to quickly dash the remaining distance. Now the question is why they don't do that ? I don't have an answer either. It is a mystery why the cylons delibarately expose their fragile basestars to gunfire when they have FTL capable fighters.

Secondly I don't think Colonial ship to ship missiles will be useful against basestars. As we saw in season 4 episode "The Hub" basestars were engaging themselves in the pivotal moment of cylon civil war. They used their missiles like SAMs to shoot down incoming missiles. It may not be as impressive as battlestar flak barrage but it should stop the occasional nuclear missile. Battlestars dont have the sheer numbers of missile launchers to fire point defense overwhelming salvos like Baseships. The only time we saw missile tubes was in season 3 episode "the eye of jupiter". The missiles were intended for ground bombardment. I guess they could finish of a damaged capital ship too but is unlikely to penetrate a basestars missile defense.

Both battlestars and basestars have their strengths and weaknesses and their effectiveness depends on how they are used. A battlestar has tremendous armor, excellent fighters and formidable short range gunfire. It would and does tear apart basestars when it catches one at close distance. On the other hand a basestar has superior FTL and long range missiles and ability to attack at stand off ranges with raiders. By keeping distance a basestar can overwhelm a battlestar with missiles and fighters with minimum damage to itself. Victory depends on the ship commander to use their vessels advantages and exploit the enemys short comings rather than a simplistic "basestar sucks battlestar rocks" conclusion.

It seemed to me that before Scar the cylons were all newbies when talking about war. So far only two number 8 (Athena and Boomer) have been in the military. The other skinjobs were more into infiltration and spying. They have no actual combat experience. No wonder the basestars were never properly used.

[Anguirus]

You're assuming rather a lot with regard to the accuracy of Raider FTL. After all, if they're really so accurate, there would be no need at all for an elaborate backdoor trick (which, even with it in play, the Cylons didn't think they would have succeeded as well as they did); you could just jump in a nuke-loaded Raider to each known military installation and city.

Actually, in Razor we see some serious Raider jump-accuracy. Whole squadrons jump right on top of the dry dock, like within machine gun range. No one pancakes.

However, their city-killers (which we see in Razor) are FAR too big to load into a Raider. A Raider is also a very poor match for an experience Viper pilot, as we see all the time in the series.

[Gaidin]

Actually, in Razor we see some serious Raider jump-accuracy. Whole squadrons jump right on top of the dry dock, like within machine gun range. No one pancakes.

However, their city-killers (which we see in Razor) are FAR too big to load into a Raider. A Raider is also a very poor match for an experience Viper pilot, as we see all the time in the series.

The Raiders I see as somewhat physically made to carry out those executions. War experience for them wasn't in ability to execute maneuvers so much as what tactics and maneuvers to execute. Which is where the idea behind Scar comes in.

[Anguirus]

Ghetto-edit: we see their city killers in The Plan, not Razor.

[Bilbo]

One point to consider. Yes the Cylons still have the advantage of surprise, but they (at least in scenes from The Plan) waste that surprise by not firing right away. They let the colonials approach then zap them with the virus.

If the virus was just discovered and rendered inert then boom that surprise instead becomes shock and at the worst possible time as the spread out Cylons are suddenly attacked by Colonial forces they were certain would be disarmed and helpless.

I can see the Cylons losing dozens of Basestars from the get go. Also it makes sense (since orbital nuke missile spam is ont a hugely origional idea) that the Colonys had planetside and orbital assets for defending against such moves. It would be just stupid for the colonies not to have such defenses.

So that particular item wont be a guarunteed win either.