Salvation War Criticism Thread

[Morilore]

Except the person in question is Israeli, maybe they're just more well read?

I see you missed the point.

[Blayne]

No I understand its painting the fourth wall and I like it that way, I am just providing a justification.

[Morilore]

No I understand its painting the fourth wall and I like it that way, I am just providing a justification.

Then why didn't you say that, instead of ignoring my point?

P.S. People like you ruin this story. You encourage Stuart to constantly slap the reader on the ass with juvenile high-fiving bullshit. What's next? A scene where someone named "Cancer Mancan" gets a pie thrown in his face and reassigned to Alaska, to thunderous applause? A chapter where something like this...

He and his other subhuman babyraping monsters in human bodies. The Alliance will find him and his fellow monsters. And when they do, they'll wish they had never launched those missiles.

When they arrive in Hell, the population of Tel Aviv will be there waiting for them. and when the citizens of Tel Aviv get their hands on them, even the demons will marvel at the tortures the Tel Aviv citizens will punish them with.

As the centuries pass, the submarine crew will struggle to remember a day when they were not being tortured, not being put through Hell by whatever creative torment one of their victims thought up. They will mewl and cry for salvation, deliverance from their torturers by the same Divine power that told them to commit that atrocity, the spark that almost crumbled the Alliance and sentenced the humans to a fate worse than death.

But that salvation will not come. Their victims will laugh at them, citing how they destroyed the supposed "Divine" power that told them to kill innocents. And because of what the crew almost did to Humanity that day, the Human Alliance will permit the torture to carry on, letting the crew be undead examples of what happens when you commit atrocities.

The only peace that they will ever know is when, after many millennia, one person takes pity on the monsters and gives them their Final Death, sending them to the black unfeeling abyss of oblivion, the emptiness of non-existence.

...is actually incorporated into the text?

P.P.S. Seriously, Eulogy. Get a fucking fanboyectomy. I was digging this chapter so much and then you puke all over it.

[Stuart]

I were you, Stuart, I would rephrase that to "put that in a movie" or "put that on TV." This version seems to tackily wink directly at the reader.

That's a good comment. I was uneasy about that line as it came out and I'm less happy with it now I see it in context. This is one thing that one learns very quickly about writing long texts, what seemed like a good idea when the initial draft is prepared often just doesn't work in practice. That's why getting the initial draft assembled and seeing what it looks like as a whole is always a chastening experience. Some lines and scenes are simply out of place and need replacement or deletion, others are underplayed and need enlargement. Parts need to be shuffled around to get the order right and make the flow correct. Second drafts are usually rather different from first drafts. Armageddon was a particularly severe example because it was written a group of people and making the whole story flow properly was a major exercise in editing.

In the final text, the line in question will be changed quite drastically. What to, I'm not certain yet, I have to read the section in context and think what the character would say. That's another thing that causes problems; the characters speak for themselves, not for the author or the reader. On doing the initial polishing, one has to be very careful that they stay that way.

As for getting a little revenge in by inflicting a terrible fate on a named character, frankly, I regard that as being petty. I might toss a passing jab in at a public figure who displeases me (public office has its penalties after all) but I try to restrain myself from doing nasty things to people like the eponymous cancerman. As a good principle, its best to ignore people like that, given time they harm themselves far more comprehensively than anything I could think up. in this case, I feel very sorry for the guy, he obviously has a whole clutch of massive problems (the most obvious of which is totally lacking a life). Trying to kick him around would be like kicking a blind baby - pointless and distasteful in the extreme.

[MarshalPurnell]

I'm not entirely sure the Israeli Prime Minister's decision to sacrifice Tel Aviv to save Cairo stands up to rational scrutiny of what the Israelis would actually do in such a circumstance. Taking out Tel Aviv seems to be generally considered a death sentence for the Israeli state, given the way it represents a substantial portion of the securely Jewish population and infrastructure. With Jerusalem as another major population center also leveled by the Scarlet Beast, the existence of the state of Israel after a nuclear attack on Tel Aviv and corresponding damage would perhaps be open to question. I'm not sure I could imagine any national leader electing to sacrifice his nation's existence to preserve another people, and the precedent of history suggests there is no end to the number of foreigners a country will throw under the bus to serve their own interests or stave off an existential threat. Prior Israeli behavior certainly gives little credence to the idea that they would be willing to sacrifice their national existence, or even run the risk of doing so, for broader idealistic concerns.

Granted the truth of Heaven and Hell being revealed is undoubtedly a psychological factor, but even so the stakes of allowing Tel Aviv to be nuked would probably still be too high for any Israeli leader to make the choice to sacrifice it for a broader goal. Certainly the existence of the Hell Expeditionary Army able to redeploy at will would exercise a check on the ability of the Arabs to pour over the border and slaughter the Israeli population. As a dramatic point dealing with the fallout (*groan*) of Cairo being nuked could add some much needed tension by complicating the politics for humanity's war effort and allowing their adversaries a plausible (and undoubtedly temporary) victory. Egypt in any case could and would survive without Cairo (should have targeted the Aswan Dam, if Popeye has the range) and diplomatic scrambling by the Americans, Europeans, Russians, Chinese, and everyone else to bring the situation under control would almost certainly prevent the collapse of the alliance - the Israelis and Arabs don't really add that much to the overall balance of power and could be told to take their squabbling elsewhere, if the situation were completely intractable.

[CaptainChewbacca]

Was it the Israeli PM who gave the order? I thought it was an 'Alliance' general giving the orders, if for no other reason than the decision was so quick and dispassionate I didn't think an Israeli WOULD give the order that quickly. A war starting on earth certainly would be an interesting distraction for heaven to exploit.

[Blayne]

well its not like they're gone, they show up again in hell.

[Blayne]

No I understand its painting the fourth wall and I like it that way, I am just providing a justification.
Then why didn't you say that, instead of ignoring my point?

P.S. People like you ruin this story. You encourage Stuart to constantly slap the reader on the ass with juvenile high-fiving bullshit. What's next? A scene where someone named "Cancer Mancan" gets a pie thrown in his face and reassigned to Alaska, to thunderous applause? A chapter where something like this...

Gee, thanks for that, i'll be sure to treasure your obviously well thought out advice.

[open_sketchbook]

Pretty much my only critism of the Salvation War, and one I'm sure will be addressed in editing, is that it's often hard to get a sense of time. Often, events that take place over several minutes transpire in between lines of dialog, and it was especially noticable in the chapter with the nukes. In a high-stakes situation like that, it might be beneficial to step back for a paragraph, get a sense of the mood of the room, maybe look at a character's thought process a bit more. I know dramatic tension isn't nessesarily a goal of the writing style, but it really felt like something was missing.

[MarshalPurnell]

well its not like they're gone, they show up again in hell.

They are transformed from a highly productive citizen base to a horrible drain on resources, perhaps hundreds of thousands of people thrust into Hell where they have no housing, no industries, no ability to generate wealth. The economic infrastructure of Israel does go up in the nuclear mushroom cloud, and there are survivors who desperately need costly and intensive assistance from a now much smaller national infrastructure base. Of course there is international aid, but no one wants to see their country survive solely on the basis of the generosity of other nations - least of all Israel with its Zionist origins.

[Kodiak]

well its not like they're gone, they show up again in hell.

They are transformed from a highly productive citizen base to a horrible drain on resources, perhaps hundreds of thousands of people thrust into Hell where they have no housing, no industries, no ability to generate wealth. The economic infrastructure of Israel does go up in the nuclear mushroom cloud, and there are survivors who desperately need costly and intensive assistance from a now much smaller national infrastructure base. Of course there is international aid, but no one wants to see their country survive solely on the basis of the generosity of other nations - least of all Israel with its Zionist origins.

On the other hand, several million Israelis just got a collective jump-start on the new frontier. They've built a society and government from scratch in the last 70 years, they can do it again in on the Phelan Plain.

[Ace Pace]

I am not looking forward to their attempts at recreating Silicon valley in Hell

About the economic recovery of Israel (though it's far less relevant to Salvation War). While most of the Israeli GDP is tied up in Jerusalem and Tel Aviv, most of the heavy industry is in Haifa/Ashdod (south/north edges). It will be nothing compared to what's currently going in Israel, but it won't totally die out.

[Shroom Man 777]

I hope no one accuses Stuart of anti-Semitism, like how he supposedly got accused of hating the French for making Paris explode in his other stories or something.

Maybe the Anti-Defamation League will boycott the Salvation War stories.

[Stuart]

I hope no one accuses Stuart of anti-Semitism, like how he supposedly got accused of hating the French for making Paris explode in his other stories or something.

In The Big One, a B-36 drops a string of bombs down the Champs Elysee as a message to the European governments that any government that starts another war is going to get bombed and there is nothing they can do to stop it. The logic behind selecting Paris was simple. It had to be a capital people know and are familiar with. That knocks out The Hague, Brussels, Luxembourg and other minor places. Rome and Madrid are neutral so off the target list. That leaves Copenhagen, London and Paris. The preferred means of attack was a stick of bombs right down the main street of the administrative district. The B-36 carried a lot of bombs. That knocked out Copenhagen, the city doesn't have a suitable street. So we are left with Whitehall, London and the Champs Elysee, Paris. Whitehall has a big bend in it that a B-36 can't follow so that's knocked out. That left the Champs Elysee which is straight. It is literally, the only suitable target in Europe.

The attack was part of a massive conventional bombing assault that followed the nuclear strike. It was deliberately put in as a strike that seemed a good idea at the time and becomes shown as a bad mistake as the story line continues.

Maybe the Anti-Defamation League will boycott the Salvation War stories.

Please. . . . . A good boycott does wonders for sales. I have half the world accusing me of being an Israeli apologist because I happen to know their military command are a bunch of moronic imbeciles rather that psychotic killers and now I'll have the other half accusing me of being anti-semitic. There just ain't no justice.

[Simon_Jester]

I find myself interested in a horrified sort of way as to how, precisely, you would go from a prewar US government that I assume resembled the Roosevelt administration to one that actually thought it was a good idea to bomb Paris, even in an "it seemed like a good idea at the time" sense, in... what, 1947 or so? Or did this happen considerably later?

[CaptainChewbacca]

Several million dead Americans will change anyone's mind. IIRC the American casualties in TBO were about 5 times what we experienced in @.

[Stuart]

I find myself interested in a horrified sort of way as to how, precisely, you would go from a prewar US government that I assume resembled the Roosevelt administration to one that actually thought it was a good idea to bomb Paris, even in an "it seemed like a good idea at the time" sense, in... what, 1947 or so? Or did this happen considerably later?

Actually the USAAF actually did bomb Paris quite often. It was a favorite soft target to train crews on. This is a critical thing to remember; the attitude then to bombing cities was utterly different to the attitude now. By the way, the PoD for TBO is noon June 18, 1940.

[JBG]

I find myself interested in a horrified sort of way as to how, precisely, you would go from a prewar US government that I assume resembled the Roosevelt administration to one that actually thought it was a good idea to bomb Paris, even in an "it seemed like a good idea at the time" sense, in... what, 1947 or so? Or did this happen considerably later?

A mixture of total war (remember the pre-war theories of Douhet, Trenchard etc) and a preemptive geopolitical strike at the French in the hope of a quieter world for the US in the TBOverse thereafter and in that The Seer's hand is obvious. The dialogue between French commanders as the Corsair's strafe then the Peacemaker drops it's of stick bombs is telling in that regard and is based on actual stated opinions by those present.

The original comment threads, probably destroyed by the infamous yuku-poo catastrophe on the old HPCA board, were most enlightening as Stuart expanded on the background and the research behind TBO. Thankfully I saved them in dead tree format.

[NecronLord]

Eulogy's rant about revenge made me think that the guilty parties should actually be snatched using heaven's Priority Soul Intercept when they get found out, just to disappoint the angry mob waiting for them. Then have their angelic master snap their necks to stop them being a liability to his plans - whoever it was seems pretty smart, after all.

[Shroom Man 777]

Maybe that would be after the angel guys interrogate them fully to learn as much as they can about Earth's military weaknesses, to strike more effectively next time? Ruining a major Norinco factory might be baaad for humanity's arms procurement thing. Yes.

[Simon_Jester]

Actually the USAAF actually did bomb Paris quite often. It was a favorite soft target to train crews on. This is a critical thing to remember; the attitude then to bombing cities was utterly different to the attitude now. By the way, the PoD for TBO is noon June 18, 1940.

Excuse me, I got mixed up. I was not referring to the bombings of Paris while it was under German occupation. I knew about those, but had not thought of those. I may have misunderstood the timing of the bombings in your setting; was Paris the actual capital of a French government at the time, or was Paris merely another city under German occupation?

In the latter case, bombing Paris would make as much sense as bombing any other occupied city. In the former... associated with an ultimatum, as a condition for not following up on the ultimatum, maybe. But... I just cannot wrap my brain around this being considered by people who were not actually mentally ill. I must be missing something.

A mixture of total war (remember the pre-war theories of Douhet, Trenchard etc) and a preemptive geopolitical strike at the French in the hope of a quieter world for the US in the TBOverse thereafter and in that The Seer's hand is obvious. The dialogue between French commanders as the Corsair's strafe then the Peacemaker drops it's of stick bombs is telling in that regard and is based on actual stated opinions by those present.

The original comment threads, probably destroyed by the infamous yuku-poo catastrophe on the old HPCA board, were most enlightening as Stuart expanded on the background and the research behind TBO. Thankfully I saved them in dead tree format.

Any chance of getting a scan of those?

[Questor]

Excuse me, I got mixed up. I was not referring to the bombings of Paris while it was under German occupation. I knew about those, but had not thought of those. I may have misunderstood the timing of the bombings in your setting; was Paris the actual capital of a French government at the time, or was Paris merely another city under German occupation?

It was still under occupation. How much independence it had is an interesting question that I will be posing on HPCA sometime soon. I'm also curious about the extent of the completion of other Nazi plans, and the thought of that horrifies me enough that I'm not sure I want to know the answer.

In the latter case, bombing Paris would make as much sense as bombing any other occupied city. In the former... associated with an ultimatum, as a condition for not following up on the ultimatum, maybe. But... I just cannot wrap my brain around this being considered by people who were not actually mentally ill. I must be missing something.

It took me a while and a lot of thinking myself, and only really became clear when I actually figured out the whole Daimon thing. The Seer has seen an enormous number of wars, and looks at them from a very clinical perspective, but he still hates it.

The way I saw it was as a warning to the french that even thought their main rival for continental power was gone, they WERE NOT to find any further Napoleons. I don't recall what the Seer was doing during the Napoleonic wars, but I know he was in the US during the Civil War.

Also remember that the US was not interested in an ally at the time.

]Any chance of getting a scan of those?

I think a copy'd be neat myself.

[Darth Yan]

under german occupation the capital was vichy, hence the title vichy government

[Ryan Thunder]

Honestly I think I can sum up my criticism of the Salvation War thusly;

Less of this:


More of this:


Wierd shit should be happening around angels and demons.

[Stuart]

under german occupation the capital was vichy, hence the title vichy government

It's a bit more complicated than that; under the June 1940 Armistice, France was divided into two sections; a German-occupied north headquartered in Paris and an unoccupied, nominally independent south with its capital in Vichy. Hence, the latter became known as Vichy France. In November 1942, German troops occupied the southern section of France as well, effectively depriving the government in Vichy of any authority. From this point onwards, the actual primary authority in France was the German headquarters in Paris.

This is one of the common factors between TBO and OTL; the situation in France is more or less identical although the route there is marginally different. So, Paris, as an occupied city and the headquarters of German forces in Western Europe, is a perfectly legitimate target.