Saakashvili blows up memorial for his birthday; 2 people die

[K. A. Pital]

Woman and child died in Kutaisi explosion

Two people died and several others wounded in an explosion at dismantling of Glory Memorial in Kutaisi, GHN reports.

Mikheil Saakashvili cancelled his visit to Copenhagen. The blast caused death of a woman and her 8-year old daughter Nino Jincharidze, Georgia Online reports referring to the department on emergency situations at the Interior Ministry.

The accident site is cordoned off and journalists’ access prohibited. Dismantling was conducted by private company under the agreement with Kutaisi municipality. The investigation is launched.

As NEWS.am reported earlier, the monument, dismantling deadline of which was President’s birthday — December 21, was planned to be replaced by new Georgian Parliament building.

The Kutaisi Glory Memorial (a distinctly Georgian-faced, semi-naked horseman with a fiery sword in front of a large concrete arch) commemorates the Georgians who served in the Red Army during World War II and went to fight the Germans. A third of them died.

At the same time, Kutaisi has a memorial to Stalin which is guarded by Georgians and survived all waves of demontage of Stalin memorials.


Ironic twists of fate - and further proof of Saakashvili's terminal phase of rage.

[Imperial Overlord]

This would be comical if people weren't getting killed over this.

[weemadando]

Seriously? Blowing up a war memorial? That kind of thing would get you lynched in most countries.

I really can't wait to see the Hollywood whitewash of this in the movie, where Saakashvili is the plucky upstart President who everyone is being mean to.

[bobalot]

This arsehole blew up a war memorial? I wonder how his best friends in the west are going to explain this one.

[Pelranius]

Why did he blow up a war memorial to his own people? Can't they just build the Parliament building somewhere else?

[MarshalPurnell]

The article itself provides the explanation. For whatever reason, the new Parliament building was selected to be sited where the monument stood. Saakashvili is not dictator of Georgia and is not the only person in the country making decisions on the matter. The article itself says the Kutiasi municipal authorities handed out the contract to demolish the old monument, not the national government. The outrage is pretty selective here; if a Western country had demolished an old memorial to make way for a new building if anyone brought it up on the board, there would be ridicule of the people positing some kind of sacred significance of such memorial structures.

That's also leaving aside that it was a Soviet monument to the contributions Georgia made to a Soviet war. Georgia, like Lithuania, Latvia, and Estonia, did not make a choice to join the USSR but was rather conquered by the Red Army and forcibly incorporated. Georgians may understandably consider the Soviet Union to be a foreign imposition that stifled their national development. The Irish and Indians demolished monuments built by the British in their countries, the Italians have taken to turning over Austro-Hungarian war graves in Trieste and been on the receiving end of such treatment in Eritrea, and of course the Baltic states have destroyed monuments to the Red Army that liberated them. Such are the wages of shifts in national territory and identity.

The Stalin statue also looks to be far smaller than the war monument the Georgians demolished, and judging by the overgrown vegetation in the picture possibly in a much more remote and run-down district than where they are siting the Parliament. Not to excuse it still existing.

[Samuel]

Also, Stalin was Georgian. I don't know if they consider him one of their own or not though.

[Big Orange]

If this was supposed to be an official demolition, why did two innocent people pointlessly die?

[Duckie]

Are you an idiot? Because demolitions is difficult. The memorial clearly did not implode in the most efficient way, and probably flying chunks of rubble hit two people. It can happen in any country that implodes buildings.

[Ilya Muromets]

I just want to know what kind of incompetence and shit safety measures actually caused those deaths. I mean, look at where that thing's sited. It's not like there's not enough room around it to make an isolated safety area. Considering how many other places have used carefully controlled detonations to safety demolish buildings in densely populated urban areas, there's just no excuse.

[bobalot]

The article itself provides the explanation. For whatever reason, the new Parliament building was selected to be sited where the monument stood. Saakashvili is not dictator of Georgia and is not the only person in the country making decisions on the matter. The article itself says the Kutiasi municipal authorities handed out the contract to demolish the old monument, not the national government. The outrage is pretty selective here; if a Western country had demolished an old memorial to make way for a new building if anyone brought it up on the board, there would be ridicule of the people positing some kind of sacred significance of such memorial structures.

Can you name one example of a western country demolishing a war memorial?

[Duckie]

I just want to know what kind of incompetence and shit safety measures actually caused those deaths. I mean, look at where that thing's sited. It's not like there's not enough room around it to make an isolated safety area. Considering how many other places have used carefully controlled detonations to safety demolish buildings in densely populated urban areas, there's just no excuse.

Yeah, I'm not defending the incompetence- clearly there was negligence or a mistake involved in the demolition. But I was responding to a nonsensical assertation of some false dichotomy between options existing.

[Garibaldi]

Can you name one example of a western country demolishing a war memorial?

Who the fuck cares? It's an ugly stone monument which may or may not have any sentimental value to locals. It's not a fucking UNESCO world heritage site. Why is it wrong to tear down a war memorial? There's nothing more pathetic than fetishizing bits of stone based on a peripheral connection to long-dead soldiers.

[Big Orange]

Sorry to sound rhetorical, but I'm wondering alongside Ilya Muromets why the demolition team and authorities messed up so badly in the demolishing of the war memorial that it killed two bystanders, sound that they did it without going through obvious safety proceedures. Even when things go wrong with building demolitions in the West, the police keep people the fuck away.

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

Can you name one example of a western country demolishing a war memorial?

Who the fuck cares? It's an ugly stone monument which may or may not have any sentimental value to locals. It's not a fucking UNESCO world heritage site. Why is it wrong to tear down a war memorial? There's nothing more pathetic than fetishizing bits of stone based on a peripheral connection to long-dead soldiers.

You do realise that war memorials are also often monuments to the many soldiers that never get buried or found?

[Axis Kast]

You do realise that war memorials are also often monuments to the many soldiers that never get buried or found?

I think the point is that there may be valid reasons to wish to demolish a war memorial, which may or may not have been applicable to this case. The implication is that the Georgian president wanted to "give the finger" to the Russians, but did so at the seemingly obvious expense of his fallen countrymen and their descendants. However, we can all easily think of reasons why eliminating a particular memorial may be to the public good, such as when the land in question might be used for some purpose with greater value.

[K. A. Pital]

Folks, the "local government" proposing anything is meaningless; this is not some First World nation. This is a post-Soviet nation. All such actions like memorial demolitions and the like are done from on high. The locals are but tools.

[Garibaldi]

Folks, the "local government" proposing anything is meaningless; this is not some First World nation. This is a post-Soviet nation. All such actions like memorial demolitions and the like are done from on high. The locals are but tools.

Could you explain what the issue is here? This just seems to be a pretty stupid cheap shot at Saakashvili.

[K. A. Pital]

Could you explain what the issue is here?

Post-Soviet nations are extremely corrupt and always ruled top-down. "Initiatives" of the local government such as renaming of streets, destruction of memorials and the like always either come as a direct order from higher echelons of power, or are made with the intent to please these higher echelons of power (by, say, demolishing a memorial for Saakashvili's birthday).

This just seems to be a pretty stupid cheap shot at Saakashvili.

Do you think the local government would have ever proposed that, were someone else but not Saakashvili in power? There's plenty of place in Kutaisi for a new Parliament building.

Georgia, like Lithuania, Latvia, and Estonia, did not make a choice to join the USSR but was rather conquered by the Red Army and forcibly incorporated

Wrong. Georgia was a part of the USSR from inception (1922) and it was due to the local communists winning the Civil War, much like in the RSFSR (Russia) itself. It was not annexed in 1939 forcibly like the above mentioned nations were.

...of course the Baltic states have destroyed monuments to the Red Army that liberated them

Wrong. They (Estonians) had dignity to just remove the monument to a graveyard instead of demolishing it. Other nations indulged in nothing of the sort.

[montypython]

Also, Stalin was Georgian. I don't know if they consider him one of their own or not though.

From what I've read on the subject, its seems that the Georgian sentiment goes along the lines of: "he was a monster, but he is our monster".

[MarshalPurnell]

Georgia, like Lithuania, Latvia, and Estonia, did not make a choice to join the USSR but was rather conquered by the Red Army and forcibly incorporated

Wrong. Georgia was a part of the USSR from inception (1922) and it was due to the local communists winning the Civil War, much like in the RSFSR (Russia) itself. It was not annexed in 1939 forcibly like the above mentioned nations were.

The Democratic Republic of Georgia was invaded by the Russian Soviet Federative Socialist Republic on February 14, 1921. It managed to hold Tblisi for a week, and held out in other parts of the country to mid-March, when Turkey and Russia reached an agreement on partitioning the country. That is hardly indicative of a successful internal Revolution. That the puppet government imposed under Bolshevik auspices joined the USSR is an inevitable outcome of that successful invasion of Georgia by the Russian Bolshevik government, which had previously recognized Georgian independence in the 1920 Treaty of Moscow.

Undoubtedly the Soviet education system taught otherwise, but they said the same thing about the Baltic states.

...of course the Baltic states have destroyed monuments to the Red Army that liberated them

Wrong. They (Estonians) had dignity to just remove the monument to a graveyard instead of demolishing it. Other nations indulged in nothing of the sort.

The outcry over the Bronze Soldier in Tallinn was rather serious enough to give the impression otherwise. As this report by the Council of Europe Parliamentary Association notes, debates about removing Soviet memorials in other countries, including Latvia and Hungary, are ongoing. The Russian government itself, noted in the report, cleared monuments in Stavropol in 2006, and Chimky and Krasnaya Gorka in 2007, to make way for new highways and construction sites. The Kutaisi monument was not a graveyard and its demolition to make way for the new Georgian parliament (something that undoubtedly the Georgian legislature had to approve) can be seen in a like light.

[K. A. Pital]

The Democratic Republic of Georgia was invaded by the Russian Soviet Federative Socialist Republic

Both were Civil War constructs created by Whites and Reds. You wouldn't take it that any of the White governments of Russia were legitimate? What of the 1918-created Red governments of other nations? Those who lose the civil war lose legitimacy. That is a common denominator.

It managed to hold Tblisi for a week, and held out in other parts of the country to mid-March

Other Civil War constructs survived even longer. That granted them no legitimacy anyhow.

The outcry over the Bronze Soldier in Tallinn was rather serious enough to give the impression otherwise

So you admit to bullshitting, and in fact that Georgia is the only nation to behave in such a fashion? Estonia's anti-Russian sentiment is maybe even stronger than that of Georgia, but they still only removed the memorial to another place; not destroyed it outright.

The Russian government itself, noted in the report, cleared monuments in Stavropol in 2006, and Chimky and Krasnaya Gorka in 2007, to make way for new highways and construction sites

"Cleared" - relocated or destroyed? And to be fair, the Russian government does a crap job of maintaining memorials, which I have seen in my home town where historic building were easily demolished for the sake of trade centers.

[CJvR]

Well having seen some of the Soviet style "memorials" I am more surprised they aren't all flattened and paved over yet. My father annoyed the DDR guide on a trip to East Berlin by asking where the monument to Berlin's defenders were during the mandatory visit to Treptower park.

[Thanas]

Yeah, most of the soviet memorials are just freaking ugly.

I guess it is just playback for back then when the soviets destroyed other memorials they did not like. That's just the way it goes - symbolic warfare.

[MarshalPurnell]

Nice selective quoting, Stas. I suppose the Treaty of Moscow, like the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact, doesn't exist for Mother Russia. The Democratic Republic of Georgia was set up by a nationalist government that was neither Red nor White and enjoyed a wide degree of international recognition, including by the RSFSR that invaded it a year later on flimsy pretext. I guess Finland was also an "illegitimate White government" and the Winter War was just a belated theater of the Civil War, too?

And I was wrong on the Bronze Soldier, though from the outcry in Russia one might have thought it was being demolished. Unlike the Kutaisi monument the Bronze Soldier was attached to a grave - the Georgians were not destroying a monument associated with any graves. Like the Russian government has done in the past an old Soviet war monument was demolished to make way for a new construction site. Your outrage is hypocritical - also of course you've presented no evidence whatsoever that Saakashvili was personally responsible for the decision to destroy the monument, much less for the details of the demolition, in case we forget that.