Avatar review thread

[dragon]

Only been able to see the first 20 min that was loaded to you tube before it was taken down. The first thing that stood out is the fact that the armored exoskeletons are in closed and not like the crap ones from the Matrix trilogy. But wondering they were in cryo sleep for 5 years so wonder how far they went.

As for the unobtanimum it's not the first film to use that name, they used it in the core as well. Could think of a few uses for levitating rock.

Do they flash back and show a little more of earth later in the film? It would be kind of interesting to see their vision of a future earth solar system.

Even though the Avatars are kind of interesting. I know several books had stuff like remotely pilot bodies but have there been movies where that premise been used?

Edit- I also like the holographic displays they were using in the command center.

[Stark]

More that I waited 12 years for the next James Cameron masterpiece and I got Pocahontas. It's hard to be pissed because this is exactly what I expected to happen since the first trailer came out.

This sounds like a personal problem. In case you hadn't noticed, James Cameron hasn't been making movies like Aliens in a long time. You might have heard of some of his more recent work; it was pretty popular.

It's a dumb criticism of a movie to say 'it wasn't what I wanted based on my decades-old attitude towards the director'.

[neoolong]

Only been able to see the first 20 min that was loaded to you tube before it was taken down. The first thing that stood out is the fact that the armored exoskeletons are in closed and not like the crap ones from the Matrix trilogy. But wondering they were in cryo sleep for 5 years so wonder how far they went.

Apparently Pandora is in the Alpha Centauri star system.

[mr friendly guy]

No, I explicitly stated that I have NOT seen the movie, and I can ONLY go by what I'm told in this thread. You say it's not necessary for Earth, other are. Personally I don't care which is true, but what I'm saying (and I stand by this) is:

If Earth's future is contingent on mining large quantities of the stuff, then xenocide is morally acceptable as a means to perpetuate our own survival.

I know its a hard concept for dumbshits like you, but your whole argument is dependent on the premise that we do need the unobtanium. But you don't care about whether we really need it or not? Are you retarded or just dropped on your head too many times as a kid?

Blah blah blah. Yes, it's morally acceptable for the invaders to invade us if they need it, because there isn't some kind of universally self consistent morality that we all have to adhere to.

That really speaks for itself. Oh look I am so cool I can come up morally bankrupt shit in the guise of sounding smart.

By the same token, they can't expect us to not resist. And shouldn't.

So its ok for the natives to resist us but someone still right for us to to attack them at the same time. You are too god damn stupid to see the inherent contradiction there aren't you?

But the situation isn't quite the same, because whereas the Navi can just relocate to another settlement and keep their lives, the Martians in War of the Worlds didn't say "dudes, look, can you just clear out of this city? I know it's important to you, but we're going to fucking destroy you if you don't." They didn't try anything approaching a diplomatic solution before they started heat-raying us to death.

I was right. Dumbshits try to avoid the point even though I already suspected you would try this line of reasoning hence I asked earlier "Does that mean if aliens want to relocate us to certain shitty areas of the planet while they take the resources from the good areas its ok now?" I guess reading comprehension isn't your strong point is it?

The guiding principle is "whatever is in the best interest of humanity is right from humanity's perspective". If I had to pull the trigger on every sentient being in the universe to ensure the survival of humanity, I would. And I expect that a Martian would do the same to an Earthling, if it meant that the Martians would survive. I don't want to, I rather like the idea of aliens and I'd love to befriend some. But if it's us or them, I know which side I'm on.

Yeah, if they were cylons trying to wipe me out, yeah I would pull the trigger. Just one problem. It doesn't apply here. You would know that of course if you actually saw the movie.

Oh, you're so right. All I even watch SciFi for is to satisfy my xenocidal hardon for military tech stomping over the little guy. Ungh, I can picture it now. Little baby aliens getting murdered for Imperial Earth! Oh god it's making me so hot.

Oh, look lying dipshit can strawman me. How cute.

I can't possibly just be interested in the survival of my own species, because that wouldn't conform to your narrow minded view stating that groups aren't allowed to act in their own best interest if that means fucking somebody else over.

Oh look, pretend to be self righteous with a giant strawman when you attempt to defend a morally reprehensible position. I am doing it for the good of all, even if that claim doesn't match reality, but it sounds good.

Come on. You know damn well that if it's true that corporate profits are the only motivation for the attacks on Navi that we wouldn't support it. Our support of it is reliant on the idea that without that specific mine (and thus, the necessity of a forced relocation), we're screwed.

Hmm, earlier you wrote

You say it's not necessary for Earth, other are. Personally I don't care which is true

Your support is dependent on a fact which you don't even bother to find out if its true or not? What are you intellectually lazy or some shit?

If we can just mine anywhere else and save Earth, or if we can survive just fine without it, then of course I don't approve of the attacks on the Navi!

But if it were, would you?

Funny how its you who seem to come with this survival or not dilemma. Since those others arguing for it seem to be saying we need its because its good for the economy rather than our survival per se.

[mr friendly guy]

I've seen estimates all over the chart, but I don't think I've ever seen "outlast the sun" on the list.

This was the thread were the link was posted
http://bbs.stardestroyer.net/viewtopic. ... va+nuclear

Here is the link (too tired to dress it)
http://www-formal.stanford.edu/jmc/progress/cohen.html

I would greatly appreciate a source on that. As to your whining about me working on the price issue, a big number got thrown out for what the unobtanium is pulling in, cost-wise. $20m is a lot of money, but I either have to assume that the quote:
A) Is in current (i.e. 2009) terms, in which case it is a lot of money or
B) Is in movie (i.e. 2150s) terms, in which case it may or not be as much.
Cameron's intent was clearly to convey "this is expensive stuff". Ignoring his intent, that's certainly what Selfridge was trying to get across in the discussion he was having.

I never disputed its expensive. I only dispute how you got from expensive = > essential, especially given that besides a few off hand comments we don't really know a lot about Earth, hence I feel you are reaching to try and manifest something out.

If the market is yielding $20m/kg for something, then the market is saying something about the importance of that thing, and it's not saying that said thing is unimportant. It is saying that it is vital.

Dude, lots of things are expensive, but doesn't necessarily follow they are essentially. Moreover for it to be $20 m/ kg it means they must already have some of the stuff to sell (no doubt mined from areas which the Na'vi don't live in). You haven't shown why needing more of it is essential. It would be useful, and good for profits, but all you have done is say, high price = essential, markets are very accurate. The high price just means that it has to be rationed. Those that can't afford it do without or with less. Just like any other good on the market.

Alien examples 1-5, most or all of which involve killing off humanity

I would agree with you if you were making a comparable comparison.

Ah, a) so one side can't take from the other side whatever they want if they arguably need it more under any circumstances. They can B) only take from the other side if they do it a certain, more humane way. Gotcha.

How did I guess you would try and weasel out of it. No seriously, by your own words most of which involve killing off humanity? So why don't you address the ones which doesn't, since it seems to match what you are trying to say. You know, like Invasion America aliens. Moreover I already added an extra line asking will it make a difference if they just relocate us.

You are not. We are not attempting to exterminate them, and we're not even touching on any of the tribes hundreds of miles away, so please get off the damn genocide kick you're on.

I don't remember once mentioning we are trying to genocide the Na'vi. Perhaps you could show me where I said this? Hint that was open_sketchbook. When can I get my concession on this strawman of yours.

It's immaterial, and I dare say that repeatedly offering up that term does not make it any more applicable. More to the point, you omit the fact that we are willing to work with them in achieving relocation.

Actually I considered that your position might be more than just a) but maybe b) (see above) so I added a caveat asking whether its ok if they just relocate us to shitty land. The fact you choose to ignore it and pretend I never said smacks to dishonesty or a reading comprehension problem. Take your pick.

So let's look at the situations you've offered up and make them actually vaguely resemble what's going on in Avatar: An alien race shows up tomorrow morning. They send down representatives and say that they need the territory in the New York metro area for [insert need here]. It is vital to prevent the collapse/near collapse of their civilization, and sorry folks, but it's got to be New York. They're willing to pay us anything that we want, but if we don't negotiate, they will attack us to get at it.

I use New York purposefully, because it is the biggest city in the US (where most of the members of this board, I believe, are from), it is culturally very important to our country, and we do have an emotional attachment to it. I think it's the closest thing the US has to Hometree and offers us the most valid comparison here. One could insert another city of similar importance to another nation (Buenos Aires in Argentina, etc.) and I would accept it as a similar comparison.

I just love how you accuse me of not making a valid comparison yet you do the very same thing. There are lots of things I want, and I am sure the aliens could provide it. Only problem was we had nothing the Na'vi wanted.

The humans have a right to attack, and the aliens have a right to defend themselves and their territory.

Correction - Its predictable that humans will attack and predictable the aliens will fight back. But both can't at the same time have rights to do contradictory actions. If one has right to do something, it would be wrong for the other side to do an opposing action (hence they can't have the right to do it). Of course not having the right doesn't mean someone won't do it.

Also, an additional point is relevant: It is possible, in a conflict, for both sides to be justified in their actions. Any race has a right, and arguably a responsibility, to fight for their survival. They ought to, in general, do so with minimal casualties on any opposing side, but they have a right to do fight for their survival.

Nice speech. Now answer this. What happens when you two tenets, ie a) right to fight for survival even at the expense of screwing someone else who wasn't harming you at all b) minimising casualties, conflict. What happens it the alien survival depended on the destruction of humanity and there is no way to minimise casualties, like in my example from the justice league cartoon. Is it right then?

Answer the question because it seems like you are saying that its ok to screw someone else over as long as you do so with minimal casaulties then turning around and giving yourself a "get out of jail free card" by saying its only a general rule. Because if minimising casualties is only a general rule, and the fight for survival right outweighs that, your system of ethics should really have no problems with answering my examples where humanity is exterminated as long as the survival of the sentients doing the exterminating is needed by exterminating us. In which case your obfuscation and cries of its not the same are just evasions because your own morality leads to some uncomfortable conclusions for you.

[adam_grif]

I know its a hard concept for dumbshits like you, but your whole argument is dependent on the premise that we do need the unobtanium. But you don't care about whether we really need it or not? Are you retarded or just dropped on your head too many times as a kid?

No, but apparently you were, since I've made it explicitly clear multiple times in this thread that I only support it if it is necessary to our survival. IF.

If as you say, it's not, then I don't support it. Your user-name is exceptionally misleading.

Yeah, if they were cylons trying to wipe me out, yeah I would pull the trigger. Just one problem. It doesn't apply here. You would know that of course if you actually saw the movie.

Hurr durr missing the point. Already qualified my statements quite clearly. Irrespective of whether it was actually the case or not, I'd support it if it meant saving humanity. Since it's not the case according to you, I don't support it. It's pretty clear that you're just blowing hot air at me right now.

So its ok for the natives to resist us but someone still right for us to to attack them at the same time. You are too god damn stupid to see the inherent contradiction there aren't you?

What, are you going to argue some kind of moral absolutism here? That one course of action is obviously "right" and one is obviously "wrong" outside of just your opinion? I'm making statements to the effect that invading somebody else to save yourself is morally right to you, but that you can't expect the people you're invading to agree, and that to them, resisting is the right thing to do.

Your support is dependent on a fact which you don't even bother to find out if its true or not? What are you intellectually lazy or some shit?

A laughable attempt to make me look like I'm saying something I'm not.

I'm saying that I support driving out the locals, where it is necessary for our survival. Whether or not it was necessary in the movie or not is not what I'm disputing, because my stance is already clear:

If it's necessary, agree, if not, disagree.

Since those others arguing for it seem to be saying we need its because its good for the economy rather than our survival per se.

If it's an economics only thing then it's complex. If without it economy will collapse and millions will starve then it might be justifiable, depending on the negative consequences if we can't secure it. Taking a utilitarian approach, the course of action is obvious.

[Tritio]

I just watched the movie last night. It's really a good movie. I liked how the environment of Pandora, the technology of the humans (the futuristic Display/Touch screen things were awesome), the Na'vi and the characters all came together in a nice story. The flora and fauna of Pandora were breathtaking. The bioluminescent plants were beautiful, and the scene where they went swimming made me go 'wow'! The Na'vi and their culture/tribes were recognizable and interesting.

One thing:
Regarding the issue of the importance of Unobtanium:

...
The ISV Venture Star, and the other ships of its class, represent the highest technological achievement in human history. Only the great need for unobtanium and the energy which it allows human civilization to produce could justify the cost of creating these vessels. In fact, the unobtanium itself enabled the creation of this class of ISV’s. It is used in the superconducting magnet arrays which contain and direct the energy of the matter-antimatter annihilation which propels the ship. Without unobtanium, interstellar commerce on this scale would not be possible. Unobtanium is not only the key to Earth’s energy needs in the 22nd century, but it is the enabler of interstellar travel and the establishment of a truly spacefaring civilization.
...
It was not until the discovery of the high-temperature superconductor unobtanium on Pandora that interstellar travel and commerce became commercially viable.

So that's the reason behind the need for Unobtanium. It's the key to Earth's energy needs and the enabler of interstellar travel.

[GrayAnderson]

1) I can see that, though I think the deadline (which seems, by the way, to have been preceded by several years of relatively fruitless efforts) made it fairly obvious that a shoe was going to drop one way or another. Still, the relationship was frosty enough between Selfridge and Augustine that office politics probably caused communication to be poor...though at the same time, one suspects that Sully could have put some things together in his head and guessed that a "big boom" was coming.

Well, the military and corporate guys seemed very patronizing of the scientists who they saw as merely collecting tree samples, as if their prolonged contact with the natives themselves and unique scientific insight on the actual-factual ecosystem of the planet was worth nothing.

Split that into military and corporate:
-For the military guys, it's definitely above their pay grade.
-For the corporate guys, a bit more respect was probably merited. I'll agree. I'm inclined to partly blame office politics, partly blame timing on that scene where Grace does lay it out for Selfridge (like I said, throw that at me out of the blue and I'm going to stare at you and wonder who your dealer is), and partly blame it on genuine attitude problem on Selfridge's part.

2) What is desirable and what is necessary don't always coincide. I've gotten to the point that pathos really doesn't work on me very well. Blame Hollywood overdoing this appeal too often while logos leads one to a different, if unpleasant, conclusion.

Pathos leads one to side with the Na'vi overwhelmingly. Logos depends on a lot of stuff that's off-screen and not talked about very much (and let me take this moment to restate that there was no genocide on the agenda in the movie and that genocide-related examples are therefore not valid comparisons to what was going on with Pandora...given some of the arguments on here [though not from you in particular, Shroom], I feel the need to restate this ad nauseam). It depends on a lot of "ifs" not discussed on-screen, largely for commercial and artistic reasons (make the enemy too unclear and the audience won't feel good when the hero wins).

The genocide-related examples stem from the fact that a whole lot of guys here are really keen on using stuff like orbital strikes, or throwing Tunguskas at them, and other massive military devastation because they apparently don't like the fact that the natives get to keep their own homes and saved their families and loved ones while the military gets to go home with its tail tucked.

The Colonel was inclined towards a LeMay-esque attitude, but as I said before I didn't find this to be the glaring flaw it was probably intended to be. This probably stems from him reminding me of too many men who I know/have known and respect/have respected. Sorry, I know Cameron apparently tried to invoke Col. Kilgore from Apocalypse Now, but other connections clicked harder and the pathos issue here wasn't just blocked out, it really wasn't even there to begin with.

Cameron depicted the Colonel as having legitimate military concerns, and as having a practical military solution to the "Na'vi problem". But the fact that we're dealing with indigenous people, in their own home planet, and that the humans are the outsiders and that what the humans want is just a mineral luxury for monetary gain (because, again, the "necessity" of unobtanium to the human race is NEVER MENTIONED in the movie aside from stock portfolios and dollar-per-kilos) means that any military action at all is really a moral failure for the human side.

The humans are the invaders here, and they're the ones who destroyed other people's homes, they're the ones who came in with no other purpose than to stripmine a planet. If the Na'vi actually shot arrows at planet Earth or something, military action might probably be justified, but the fact is that the humans were the ones who had malicious intent. Not the Na'vi.

Lebensraum or space uranium, there's no justification for killing other people and destroying their homes and injuring their living planet. It's like the morality of killing an elephant to obtain its tusk, to sell it for high prices in the market. The humans, in the movie, were poaching a living planet.

[/quote]
Things do not go for small fortunes without being either highly pretty or highly important. Given that Unobtanium is about as beautiful as a lump of coal, the latter is the only conclusion to reach. Selfridge is preoccupied with one motive for getting it (money). That does not preclude the existence of other motives for the mission and the operation; if anything, the high value placed on something which is not decorative tends to be an indicator of its importance.

Selfridge's personal failings do not affect the importance of the mineral, which I take to be indicated by the price it is selling for. Now, should we negotiate for this stuff? We should and we try to. The company throws enough money into the Avatar program that they're willing to take Jake Sully on at the last minute almost sight unseen to fill his brother's shoes because he can use the equipment designed for said brother.

The question then comes: If the material is important to the lights not going out on Earth, and I say this because of all the talk about "cheap energy", the impact of "not-cheap energy" can be a real doozy when people can't afford to pay to get food to their homes or to get to the food, what are we justified in doing when those negotiations break down?

If the breakdown causes the equivalent to a $5 jump in the price of oil, not much. If it's the equivalent to seeing half of our oil cut off? The story gets to be a little different because of what that will do to the price of food, and if it's the equivalent to cutting all of the oil off, then the story is even different. Likewise, if oil is about to run out and we need a replacement, etc.

The problem as I see it is that humanity has what we would call an inalienable right to survive, or at least to attempt to. So do the Na'vi. We have a right to our homes. So do the Na'vi. What happens when these rights become mutually exclusive?

Look, I'm going to gesture to the invisible hand of the market in this movie for lack of express information, but the price of the unobtanium did not come because it was a curiosity. If it were, then bringing a large amount of it into the economy would cause a price collapse for the same reason that if the South African diamond mines dumped their stocks, diamond prices would likely crash in a very real way. Therefore, it is clearly important to the continued functioning of the economy, as indicated by its price, and the continued functioning of the economy is important because if an economy up and breaks down, so does the distribution of goods, and when that collapses, people do die.

Parker Selfridge and the RDA may not care about that, but that does not preclude them from serving that need like a lot of people seem to think. The movie presents portfolio price as their concern, but when prices reach a certain point the market is speaking to the importance of something.

I hate to refer to the comments, but at least a certain amount of greed is good. Too much greed is bad, particularly when it leads to shortsightedness, but without some sense of greed humanity would not have evolved out of the trees and humanity would neither survive nor advance. Without greed, food would not get taken to where it was demanded and large cities would starve, etc.

[PeZook]

Uh...if the bullshit mineral is really so important, why don't any of the characters try mentioning it to the Na'Vi? It's their goddamned job to convince the natives to move ; It would be a pretty strong argument to say "If we can't get the mineral, hundreds of millions of our people are going to starve to death."

The locals respected Grace at least, and she seemed compassionate enough that she'd, you know, give two shits about a massive holocaust? So why didn't she try it? Why didn't Sully try it after he became a fucking celebrity amongst them?

[Elfdart]

More that I waited 12 years for the next James Cameron masterpiece and I got Pocahontas. It's hard to be pissed because this is exactly what I expected to happen since the first trailer came out.

This sounds like a personal problem. In case you hadn't noticed, James Cameron hasn't been making movies like Aliens in a long time. You might have heard of some of his more recent work; it was pretty popular.

It's a dumb criticism of a movie to say 'it wasn't what I wanted based on my decades-old attitude towards the director'.

Actually, I find it touching that filmmakers other than George Lucas now get to put up with this kind of bullshit.

[xammer99]

Just got back and that was hands down the worst movie I've ever seen. Unquestionably beautiful, but the story was just ridiculous. The grotesque plot contrivances were just way to much to swallow, and grotesque is honestly a light term for just how damn bad they were. I'm not talkin about the morality issue, that's irrelevant, the tech & tactics of the movie were beyond retarded. It honestly shoulda lasted all of 5 minutes once the Military guys signed onto pushing the cat people out. Do a cut scene of the shuttle in orbit droping a few dozen Rods from God, then show the impact. Or better yet, wait till Dances with Hammerhead Rhinos gathers all 20,000 cat people together, and THEN do it so you kill all their warriors in one go.

Plot contrivance list off the top of my head:

1. Glass canopy mechs so you could have death by bow and arrow at the end.
2. Mechs period so you could have epic duel between man and 10' cat person, complete with knife and bayonette on giant lame gun.
3. No orbital bombardment so you can have heroic charge of the Captain Planet Brigade.
4. Great Bio network so traiterous hero can fully go over the fence at the end and live happily ever after.
5. No UAV's scouting it all out so Dances with Hammerhead Rhinos can "provide good intel" and all the associated crap. (and don't even try and say "BUT THERE WAS INTERFERENCE!!!", bull shit, they were getting signals in and out just fine when talking with mole boy back at base.)
6. The great bio jamming zone that still allowed HD video streams in and out, but only worked on some sensors.
7. Flying mountains so that Dances with Hammerhead Rhinos could have his epic dragon duel.
8. Dances with Hammerhead Rhinos just happening to come across and tame uber dragon that only 5 other guys in "times of great strife" so he can be the Chosen asshole.
9. The Backup Coffin base never getting attacked previously by hostile aliens for at least the 3 months we saw. Even though at the start we see clear evidence that they routinely attack gigantic excavation machinery to no effect other than decorating its wheels.
10. The "Mother Load" being located under the great tree.

Sorry folks, but that movie was just bad and no amount of pretty can change just how god damned bad it was.

[Stark]

So your assessment is that the movie isn't milwank enough? The very idea you propose replacing the movie with a 'cut scene' sorta highlights why you're not a highly-paid scriptwriter. Having read the other thread I'm pretty amused by the sheer amount of internet tough-guy rage this movie has generated.

[Kuja]

Uh...if the bullshit mineral is really so important, why don't any of the characters try mentioning it to the Na'Vi? It's their goddamned job to convince the natives to move ; It would be a pretty strong argument to say "If we can't get the mineral, hundreds of millions of our people are going to starve to death."

The locals respected Grace at least, and she seemed compassionate enough that she'd, you know, give two shits about a massive holocaust? So why didn't she try it? Why didn't Sully try it after he became a fucking celebrity amongst them?

They did tell them, there's even lines from the Na'vi about how the Sky People are after some kind of metal. The Na'vi just through we were stupid and weren't going to move their home for our convenience.

[Bounty]

Having read the other thread I'm pretty amused by the sheer amount of internet tough-guy rage this movie has generated.

It's especially sad considering the blatant historical parallels this movie is trying to draw. Here we have a technologically advanced civilization forcibly displacing natives for the sake of resources that are of economic interest, something which throughout history has caused immense suffering and is consistently decried by each successive generation, yet even when it's presented on a silver platter with a giant neon "EVIL GUYS HERE" sign we get sad rejects of humanity crying manly tears over the lack of genocide.

GHETTO EDIT:

Maybe I'm biased about this because the result of a corporation mining resources on land owned by so-called "savages" was part of my high school history books, but I refuse to believe people don't see the colonialism parable.

[Samuel]

1. Glass canopy mechs so you could have death by bow and arrow at the end.

As opposed to another electronic system that might malfunction and leave the pilot blind?

2. Mechs period so you could have epic duel between man and 10' cat person, complete with knife and bayonette on giant lame gun.

Tanks don't work so well in jungles that have very little constant horizontal surfaces.

3. No orbital bombardment so you can have heroic charge of the Captain Planet Brigade.

I think the company was barred from doing it. People back home didn't want them to act like Captain Planet villians and just start killing everything.

4. Great Bio network so traiterous hero can fully go over the fence at the end and live happily ever after.

That was actually an integral part of the movie (the Navi beliefs actually being real).

5. No UAV's scouting it all out so Dances with Hammerhead Rhinos can "provide good intel" and all the associated crap. (and don't even try and say "BUT THERE WAS INTERFERENCE!!!", bull shit, they were getting signals in and out just fine when talking with mole boy back at base.)

Maybe they just wanted to make sure that he remembered that he was working for humanity? Or the commander took pity on him and gave him a job to do so that when he gave him his legs back he would have felt like he earned it. It isn't like it was necesary- just shooting the tree with large amounts of HE would have done the job anyway.

6. The great bio jamming zone that still allowed HD video streams in and out, but only worked on some sensors.

Yeah, I don't get how the avatars are supposed to work. Do they run of the hybrids brain and if so how can you remotely disconnect?

.7. Flying mountains so that Dances with Hammerhead Rhinos could have his epic dragon duel.

They existed because of the magic rocks (that were also the reason for humans mining here and not the asteroid belt) and were also tied to the planetary computer mind.

8. Dances with Hammerhead Rhinos just happening to come across and tame uber dragon that only 5 other guys in "times of great strife" so he can be the Chosen asshole.

That was a complete plot contrivence... unless they made the avatars stronger and better than normal navi in an attempt to impress them.

9. The Backup Coffin base never getting attacked previously by hostile aliens for at least the 3 months we saw. Even though at the start we see clear evidence that they routinely attack gigantic excavation machinery to no effect other than decorating its wheels.

Because the Base wasn't destroying their environment, while the dozers were?

10. The "Mother Load" being located under the great tree.

Maybe the great tree was there because of the mother load. Because having a magical substance that is anti-gravity and a room temperature superconductor is great when you need to be insanely massive and a node in a planetary signal network.

[starfury]

.So your assessment is that the movie isn't milwank enough? The very idea you propose replacing the movie with a 'cut scene' sorta highlights why you're not a highly-paid scriptwriter. Having read the other thread I'm pretty amused by the sheer amount of internet tough-guy rage this movie has generated.

Wonder why these guys didn't love transfomers 2, which was giving milwank, aka pitful inferior humans somehow using shiny US millitary hardware manage to stop Metal juggernauts, who should been able plow through them like they didn't exist and incidently wanted to destroy Earth for the same reason.

[GrayAnderson]

Sam took care of most of this, but:

1. Glass canopy mechs so you could have death by bow and arrow at the end.

-The canopies may or may not have been glass. Absent other information, I'd bet on a high-strength plastic...and yes, the two often shatter in similar ways.

3. No orbital bombardment so you can have heroic charge of the Captain Planet Brigade.

-Depends on what you're looking at, orbital bombardment-wise, but the ship just might not have been given that capability on purpose. In theory, it could be turned on Earth if they had it.

5. No UAV's scouting it all out so Dances with Hammerhead Rhinos can "provide good intel" and all the associated crap. (and don't even try and say "BUT THERE WAS INTERFERENCE!!!", bull shit, they were getting signals in and out just fine when talking with mole boy back at base.)

-They had satellite imagery. I'd guess they assumed that plus radar and whatnot was enough. Also, UAVs aren't weightless/massless, and every pound/kg matters on a space flight. Satellites can pack multiple capabilities into one package, too (weather, ground recon, etc.), and so may be more efficient in this regard.

[Samuel]

Yeah, but you might be able to jury rig some sort of UAV on site. The problem is distance (which means you'd need to drop it closer which is problematic) and the chances of it being spotted and taken apart. Plus I imagine the Navi would get significantly more hostile if they realized we were capable of doing something like that. Or other wildlife might see it as foreign.

Of course it isn't a problem for the story because it is inconsequential.

Something someone pointed out on spacebattles was that the scientist was engineering a scenario where Jake say the Navi as his people- putting them in an isolated base helped build up the feeling that the avatar was his real body.

[PeZook]

You know, people screaming "Just orbital bomb the cat people!!!" need to shut the fuck up. It's not easy or cheap to build missiles that can be used for orbital bombardment of point targets like the Na'Vi village. If the RDA wasn't given milspec gear, they're not going to have the capability to bomb any target smaller than a mountain range.

They did tell them, there's even lines from the Na'vi about how the Sky People are after some kind of metal. The Na'vi just through we were stupid and weren't going to move their home for our convenience.

The Na'Vi knew why the humans were there, but there is no mention that the Sky People need the mineral or will suffer a horrible calamity or something, which would've been the first thing the avatars would mention when it became clear that the natives don't care about our glass beads roads and schools.

The price tells us nothing: for all we know, the stuff is expensive because of potential military applications, or just because it's so fucking rare. All mentions of it being the "solution to all our problems" come from a website styled like an RDA marketing pitch, which will naturally try to sell the operation to the public and/or investors.

[neoolong]

I don't know about that Samuel, but it seemed obvious that Grace was isolating Jake in order to keep him away from Quaritch and company. I don't think it was to go so far as to make him think of the Na'vi as his people, but just as people.

[Companion Cube]

I don't know about that Samuel, but it seemed obvious that Grace was isolating Jake in order to keep him away from Quaritch and company.

Sully says as much during his narration, when the avatar drivers are relocating to their mobile lab.

[Anguirus]

All the other milwank bullshit aside (it's irrelevant), I'm really curious how your magic UAV is just as good as having someone in the tree who goes back and reports on structural features that the satellites weren't able to resolve.

Because if there's one lesson the USA has learned in this decade, it's that human intelligence doesn't matter, and UAVs + satellites can find anyone and anything we want.

[neoolong]

Says what? He comes to see them as his people, but I don't think that was what Grace really intended.

[Broomstick]

Saw the movie tonight and while it wasn't perfect I most certainly DID enjoy it immensely.

A word to the concerned about the 3D projection used (ALL my local theaters were showing it only in 3D, so I had no choice). It is the best 3D projection system I've seen/used at the theater. That said, I had a few problems and those with 3D issues might have them as well.

First - there was a preview in 3D, which was good, because it gave my eyes/brain some time to get used to this thing before the actual feature started. Overall, it mostly worked for me, but there were times when some of the issues I mentioned over in the (now closed) venting thread.

For outside/long distance shots it worked well - which is not surprising, since distance involves the smallest difference between the two images seen by your eyes and are thus the easiest such images to process. I had significant problems with interiors with small spaces, such as the "mobile camp". The best I can come up with is that it looked like exaggerated 3D to me and very, very fake... but that's probably because my normal view of the world is most likely much flatter than what people with normal visual systems see. In other words, it may have been forcing a normal sense of depth onto my visual system, which is not used to that.

The nifty 3D holograms in their control room? The ones someone was oo-ing and ah-ing about earlier in the thread? They did not work for me. Just a tangled mass of color and line, my eyes totally couldn't make it out and in fact at one point I just closed my eyes because I literally could not focus on it. Fortunately, most of that scene was covered in 2D trailers I'd already seen so I didn't miss the information in the scene. That was the worst "my eyes can't handle this" moment, the rest of was momentary blurring/double vision that quickly resolved by focusing on the background of the scene briefly (remember - for me, the stuff in the distance is easier to process that what's in the foreground)

Beyond that, though, this was NOT hit-you-over the head 3D where every freakin' arrow is aimed directly at the audience. Overall, it was used to pretty good effect, particularly when used to give literal depth to the scenery.

I did not experience post-movie eyestrain or headache.

OK, that's my technical report regarding 3D. I'll discuss other items in other posts rather than make a long rambling one.

[Broomstick]

About the environment of Pandora....

If the gravity is less and, more importantly, the atmospheric density is higher then flying is easier on Pandora than on Earth. This also makes it more plausible that, first of all, large flying creatures exist and secondly, that they'd be able to carry passengers.

I am left wondering if Pandorans can breath an Earth atmosphere. If hydrogen sulfide is the worst contaminant and if it's not essential to Pandorans then they might be able to tolerate an Earth environment.

While most Pandoran animals are hexapedal it doesn't bother me overly much that the Na'vi are not - after all, while most Earth land animals are quadrapeds there are animals which much reduced number of limbs such as the ostriches, emus, and kiwis (two functional limbs, with two vestigial limbs or even those entirely atrophied) or even NO limbs, such as the snakes.

I did like the fact that when the barrier between the two environments was breached that you got air-mixing effects during what was clearly a gas exchange. I question if there would be as much wind as portrayed at times, but if there was significant wind outside then a sudden breach of the barrier could result in stuff blowing around. I do find it peculiar that the airlock in one scene was so fragile a human kick could break it, not because of pressure differential (it was obvious that there was little, if any, pressure difference between inside and outside) but because if having the door closed is vital to your survival you want a fucking strong door.

I think it was essential, for human reasons, for the Na'vi to look very human. It's important that the audience can identify with the Na'vi, and it's a hell of a lot easier to identify with funny looking humans than talking cockroaches or the like.

I'm not that keen on the woo-woo mental interface stuff, but it was a major plot point so I'll give it a pass. At least there was an attempt at a physical basis for it, the interface-braid, rather than beamed-through-the-aether telepathy or some such.

I find it interesting that there was no FTL drive or communication - an interesting touch of realism.