Israel admits to harvesting organs

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Re: Israel admits to harvesting organs

Post by Coyote »

It was Adolph Eichmann, not Josef Mengele, that was tracked down and captured by the Mossad.
Serafine666 wrote:Interestingly enough, the rags have occasionally done actual reporting and broke real stories that were ignored by reputable organizations. In the US, for example, The National Enquirer published stories around John Edwards' mistress and Jesse Jackson fathering a "love child" with a member of his Rainbow Coalition long before any other news outlet felt like it--and their stories happened to be quite accurate. The problem, of course, is that it's virtually impossible to differentiate between legitimate material and the normal tall tales.
There's also the angle that tawdry affairs by public figures only really qualifies as "news" if you generously stretch the definition. I've yet to have anyone explain to me, for example, any relevancy behind all the recent Tiger Woods hubbub. Nancy Grace's breathless exhortations at least have an actual 'Missing Pretty White Girl of the Month' as a subject.

In thinking over this Israeli situation, I actually wonder if it wouldn't be better for a society (any society) to automatically "opt in" everyone for organ donor programs, which they have to specifically choose to "opt out" of.
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In Communism, there is no Government, so the Workers are free to exploit the Bosses.
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Re: Israel admits to harvesting organs

Post by Eleas »

Coyote wrote:OK, I should say "the Swedish tabloid's accusation.

We just assume that any foreign newspaper that we hear about must be an important and accreditied source of news, which is a bit of a error in judgement, I guess.
It's not you specifically making an error in judgment that bothers me, and I shouldn't have jumped down your throat. But it irks me because anyone who lives here damn well knows the difference, and the notoriety the articles attain among these extremists is precisely why they're disseminated in the first place. Whoever started it must have known how misleading it was, which is as sickening as it is calculated.
Just out of curiosity, when the US Tabloid The National Enquirer runs wild with some headline, does it get much discussion in foreign media? Talk about UFO aliens held on ice in Roswell, or Hitler being cloned in a government lab, that sort of thing?
I don't doubt that we might see the same thing in principle, but not when it comes to the Palestine conflict, nor when it comes to obvious far-out nonsense. But if they were to write an article on how (for instance) homosexuality is communicable or how the Jewry secretly controls Medicare, then the same thing might conceivably happen there, I guess.

Of course, it doesn't help that the Scandinavian countries are known (justifiable or not) to have a generous integration policy and for being general peaceniks. That makes the shocking discovery of antisemitism/institutionalized bigotry/experiments on muslims/whatever a lot more juicy as far as rumors go.

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Re: Israel admits to harvesting organs

Post by open_sketchbook »

Hate to play Devil's Advocate, but why is this such a big deal? Dead people don't need their organs anymore, living people sometimes do, why the hell are we concerned about a bunch of corpses? The idea of organ donation being anything but manditory is more disguisting to me than taking some squishy things from dead people without their permission first; what greater fuck you can there be than "Well, not only am I going to die, but I'm going to deny other people the lives I could have saved if I weren't a selfish retard." It's almost like sucide bombing, in a way; by the manner of your death (or rather, how your affairs are sorted afterwards) you are condemning others to death as well.
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Re: Israel admits to harvesting organs

Post by Coyote »

open_sketchbook wrote:Hate to play Devil's Advocate, but why is this such a big deal? Dead people don't need their organs anymore, living people sometimes do, why the hell are we concerned about a bunch of corpses? The idea of organ donation being anything but manditory is more disguisting to me than taking some squishy things from dead people without their permission first...
Kinda what I was thinking in my own post above; shouldn't we all actually have "organ donation" as the "default" setting, with the ability to opt out for (whatever) reason? I agree, it's not like the dead guy needs it any longer and there's always a hellacious wait list for things that are desperately needed by other people.

Millions of perfectly good, useful, viable organs are embalmed and buried, or burned up, every year while hundreds of thousands who could have benefitted are left to suffer. It's kinda fucked up, really.
Something about Libertarianism always bothered me. Then one day, I realized what it was:
Libertarian philosophy can be boiled down to the phrase, "Work Will Make You Free."


In Libertarianism, there is no Government, so the Bosses are free to exploit the Workers.
In Communism, there is no Government, so the Workers are free to exploit the Bosses.
So in Libertarianism, man exploits man, but in Communism, its the other way around!

If all you want to do is have some harmless, mindless fun, go H3RE INST3ADZ0RZ!!
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Re: Israel admits to harvesting organs

Post by Serafina »

I agree that organ donation should be standard procedure.
As such, i do not find this all that terrifing.

But it IS another stupid, violent and unnecessary violation of other peoples rights by the Israelis.
Wether you see organ donation (or the taking of them from dead people) as good or bad, taking them from the bodies of your enemies is pretty fucked-up. It is not intrisically wrong, but it is pretty damn sure that it will piss people off.
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Re: Israel admits to harvesting organs

Post by open_sketchbook »

Piss people off, sure. But I would say the killing part is worse than the organ collecting part. More than likely thanks to religious sensiblities, we don't care about the deaths, but god forbid we do anything to the bodies!

If I were running a military, it would be standard proceedure to extract whatever useful, viable organs out of recovered casualties, friend or foe, and ship them to my hospitals, because it would be an oppertunity to minimalize my own casualties by having a better ability to treat my wounded.
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Re: Israel admits to harvesting organs

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open_sketchbook wrote:Piss people off, sure. But I would say the killing part is worse than the organ collecting part. More than likely thanks to religious sensiblities, we don't care about the deaths, but god forbid we do anything to the bodies!

If I were running a military, it would be standard proceedure to extract whatever useful, viable organs out of recovered casualties, friend or foe, and ship them to my hospitals, because it would be an oppertunity to minimalize my own casualties by having a better ability to treat my wounded.
It could cause massive unrest among your own men, however; such policy could very easily seen in an extraordinarily ghoulish light when one's dead comrade-in-arms, whose head now sports a brand new hole thanks to an enemy bullet, is taken in by medical personnel and basically vivisected for his organs. And you'd better hope that the enemy adapts the same position as you do, or otherwise their PR deparment will have a field day with you.

You see, human beings aren't all that rational. And once the word gets out that you are, for the given value of the term, desecrating the bodies of both your own soldiers and enemy combatants, you will lose a lot of respect and in many cases benefit of doubt in future, similar circumanstances.
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Re: Israel admits to harvesting organs

Post by open_sketchbook »

I just don't get that. Modern weapons chew people up and spit them out as hamburger meat, but a doctor going in to carefully extract organs to save the lives of others is somehow ghoulish? You humans are so illogical sometimes.

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Re: Israel admits to harvesting organs

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With respect to China, it seems odd to me to be concerned that the organs of executed persons are harvested at all, given that if the state decides it is acceptable to kill its own citizens, organ harvesting seems rather inconsequential. When it executes someone, I fail to see how a government needs consent to do much of anything else at all to the body. Unless they are executing people solely for their organs, of course.

In any case, it's a bit different from what Israel has admitted, though. Assuming they are not harvesting the bodies of executed people, then the problem is that this was obviously done without consent.
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Re: Israel admits to harvesting organs

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FSTargetDrone wrote:With respect to China, it seems odd to me to be concerned that the organs of executed persons are harvested at all, given that if the state decides it is acceptable to kill its own citizens, organ harvesting seems rather inconsequential. When it executes someone, I fail to see how a government needs consent to do much of anything else at all to the body. Unless they are executing people solely for their organs, of course.
The concern is that once you make a practice of taking the organs of executed persons, the state has an economic incentive to execute people, and will start executing people for their organs. In a country with a civilized judiciary, this should hopefully not be a problem; the trial process is expensive and careful enough that you can be pretty sure nobody's going to be killed just because someone wants their liver.

But China already has massive problems with government corruption on every level, and the current government has been executing people for flimsy and inadequate reasons practically since its inception*. That's not a good combination, as far as making sure the state doesn't start killing people for their organs goes.

*Yes, the frequency has dropped off over time.
FSTargetDrone wrote:In any case, it's a bit different from what Israel has admitted, though. Assuming they are not harvesting the bodies of executed people, then the problem is that this was obviously done without consent.
Also, that it adds to the Palestinian perception that they are considered as subhuman: somewhere between an inconvenience and a resource to be mined. After all, the Palestinians see random people on their side of the line killed by Israeli weapons on a regular basis, including noncombatants; if the Israelis were to declare a policy of breaking down the people they kill for spare parts, they have to wonder where it would stop.

I can't think of an analogy that wouldn't constitute a gross escalation of the rhetoric level in this thread; I wish I could.
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Re: Israel admits to harvesting organs

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Do not the Muslims have some rather important beliefs regarding the treatment of their dead?
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Re: Israel admits to harvesting organs

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As far as treatment of the dead goes, both Muslims and Jews have much the same beliefs. In the traditions, the body is washed and wrapped in white linen and buried within 24 hours if possible. For the most part, both traditions have frowned on "desecrating" the body for any reason, and for a long time organ donation was seen in that light. In Israel (at least when I lived there) there is a shortage of organs for transplants because of this and some doctors were arguing that organ donation was not a "desecration", and were trying to encourage organ donation. But at the time they were still swimming upstream, culturally speaking.

However, in Judaism, there is also the notion that one should always choose life, to the point where Rabbis have determined that if there is a life-saving vaccine that is derived from pigs, it is okay to use that vaccine because saving a person's life is more important than dying just to adhere to laws of kashrut. Interestingly enough, Muslim suicide bombers also had to be evaluated for whether or not they fell in the boundaries of Islam, because obviously their bodies were not going to get their proper treatment and burial. It was decided that, yes, because they were dying in holy martyrdom, it was acceptable to overlook the method in which their bodies were destroyed.

Anyhow, due to the cultural difficulties both Israeli and Arab culture had with the notion of organ donations, and considering that the concept hasn't fully sunk in and been accepted by either, what these doctors were doing by taking organs from both Arabs and Israelis was dangerous from a social standpoint.
Also, that it adds to the Palestinian perception that they are considered as subhuman: somewhere between an inconvenience and a resource to be mined. After all, the Palestinians see random people on their side of the line killed by Israeli weapons on a regular basis, including noncombatants; if the Israelis were to declare a policy of breaking down the people they kill for spare parts, they have to wonder where it would stop.
From the Palestinians' standpoint they'll focus on their own people being harvested for organs, but the doctors in this program were also harvesting from dead Israelis, some of which may well have been victims of terrorism themselves. The follow-up article by the doctor definitely mentioned the IDF soldiers who fell in battle were being harvested as well.
Something about Libertarianism always bothered me. Then one day, I realized what it was:
Libertarian philosophy can be boiled down to the phrase, "Work Will Make You Free."


In Libertarianism, there is no Government, so the Bosses are free to exploit the Workers.
In Communism, there is no Government, so the Workers are free to exploit the Bosses.
So in Libertarianism, man exploits man, but in Communism, its the other way around!

If all you want to do is have some harmless, mindless fun, go H3RE INST3ADZ0RZ!!
Grrr! Fight my Brute, you pansy!
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Re: Israel admits to harvesting organs

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Coyote wrote:
Also, that it adds to the Palestinian perception that they are considered as subhuman: somewhere between an inconvenience and a resource to be mined. After all, the Palestinians see random people on their side of the line killed by Israeli weapons on a regular basis, including noncombatants; if the Israelis were to declare a policy of breaking down the people they kill for spare parts, they have to wonder where it would stop.
From the Palestinians' standpoint they'll focus on their own people being harvested for organs, but the doctors in this program were also harvesting from dead Israelis, some of which may well have been victims of terrorism themselves. The follow-up article by the doctor definitely mentioned the IDF soldiers who fell in battle were being harvested as well.
Agreed. Hence my use of the words "the Palestinian perception." The Palestinian view of the world is very constricted, because most of them live on one side of a very high fence (literally or metaphorically) and have been staring angrily at that fence for the last sixty years. Better conditions for the growth of tunnel vision are hard to imagine.
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Re: Israel admits to harvesting organs

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Simon_Jester wrote:The concern is that once you make a practice of taking the organs of executed persons, the state has an economic incentive to execute people, and will start executing people for their organs. In a country with a civilized judiciary, this should hopefully not be a problem; the trial process is expensive and careful enough that you can be pretty sure nobody's going to be killed just because someone wants their liver.

But China already has massive problems with government corruption on every level, and the current government has been executing people for flimsy and inadequate reasons practically since its inception*. That's not a good combination, as far as making sure the state doesn't start killing people for their organs goes.

*Yes, the frequency has dropped off over time.
I agree totally, I wasn't endorsing the practice by any means. The potential for "abuse" of the system, shall we say, is quite apparent.
Also, that it adds to the Palestinian perception that they are considered as subhuman: somewhere between an inconvenience and a resource to be mined. After all, the Palestinians see random people on their side of the line killed by Israeli weapons on a regular basis, including noncombatants; if the Israelis were to declare a policy of breaking down the people they kill for spare parts, they have to wonder where it would stop.

I can't think of an analogy that wouldn't constitute a gross escalation of the rhetoric level in this thread; I wish I could.
Well, if nothing else, the practice was certainly abominable.
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Re: Israel admits to harvesting organs

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Coyote wrote:From the Palestinians' standpoint they'll focus on their own people being harvested for organs, but the doctors in this program were also harvesting from dead Israelis, some of which may well have been victims of terrorism themselves. The follow-up article by the doctor definitely mentioned the IDF soldiers who fell in battle were being harvested as well.
To give another example, samples from the body of a soldier who committed suicide were used by Hiss and his team for research without the parents' consent; said parents won 1.5 million NIS in a lawsuit against the government, Hiss, and two other pathologists.

I should note that this story isn't coming to light just now. It was investigated in 2003 by the Segalson Comission. Despite the Commission's recommendations, Hiss wasn't prosecuted, though he was removed from his position as head of the National Institute for Forensic Medicine, and lost at least two lawsuits related to the matter.
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