Avatar review thread

[dragon]

It reminded me of some of the westerner films were the US calvery was going around slaughtering the native Americans.

[Old Plympto]

Nothing indicated "Unobtanium" was critical to anything but the profits for the greedy fucktard guy played by the fucking pesky actor (good performance, actuallY!)

This is true about old Vonni Ribisi of My Two Dads. He conveyed subtle a sense of moral dilemma at almost every scene he's in but only for a couple of seconds, then at the last moment he reverts to douchebag mode. Even when he was herded offworld in the end it looked as though he regretted working for the wrong cause for a second. (He probably also reverted back to douchebag mode offscreen, though.)

[K. A. Pital]

He conveyed subtle a sense of moral dilemma at almost every scene he's in but only for a couple of seconds, then at the last moment he reverts to douchebag mode

Indeed. He's just like these corporate assholes, a perfect play: "Oh, no worry, we will find a solution... Hmm... Moral problem... No bother! KILL THEM!".

I was equally impressed by the colonel. That was one real tough asshole and a very believable villain, the performance was great.

[CaptainChewbacca]

It reminded me of some of the westerner films were the US calvery was going around slaughtering the native Americans.

That was the entire point, down to the native-american style mohawks and war-yells. The Na'vi started reminding me of the Martians from futurama.

[Shroom Man 777]

People complain about how it's so black and white and how these people are portrayed so nicely while those people are portrayed so badly, but hey it's not as if people haven't acted like unilateral dickwads towards an innocent and unsuspecting group of other people, right?

[adam_grif]

People complain about how it's so black and white and how these people are portrayed so nicely while those people are portrayed so badly, but hey it's not as if people haven't acted like unilateral dickwads towards an innocent and unsuspecting group of other people, right?

Of course, but people do prefer to have less of a black and white morality. The always chaotic evil nature of the villains in morality plays gets kind of boring.

[Shroom Man 777]

Nah, people just don't like it when the guys who have the nifty technologically badass mighty military hardware that make all our willies hard end up getting trounced by a bunch of benign bozo wussies who seem affable and peaceful and in fact don't pack any heat at all, particularly when they espouse ideals or stuff that's can be considered anathema by y'all. It is an affront to our mechanized manhood.

[adam_grif]

Getting upset because the cat people trounced the technologically advanced people is a separate issue to people getting upset because the technologically advanced people are portrayed as Obviously Evil. One could either be a realism or tone thing (similar reason to why people might get upset if you made a holocaust movie where the Jews rise up in the third act and drive the Nazis out of Germany, aside from the obvious historical dissonance), the other could be either people getting sick of having it beaten into their thick skulls that humans are bastards and that they should feel ashamed for being one, OR because they don't like such a black and white gap between the two factions.

[PeZook]

A culture in which warriorhood, physical skills especially skill at arms, is highly respected and the path to political power, in fact in which warriorhood is synonymous with manhood, a culture like that has forfeited all rights to be automatically considered good guys.

What the fuck? Do you think the Na'Vi just woke up one day and went "Hey, let's build our society around the warrior ethos!"? How could a culture "forfeit" anything, when it requires intent by definition?

The Na'Vi are primitive hunter-gatherers living in a mostly hostile environment. It's completely natural their culture will be somewhat brutal at that stage, and that skill at hunting and fighting would be synonomous with manhood: it's not because they like it that way (Indian idea of paradise was a place with plentiful game and no enemies allowed, actually), it's because a hunter-gatherer tribe lives or dies based on the skill of their hunters, so they tend to socially reward skilled hunters and warriors.

And guess what? The fact they're brutal primitives who perhaps wage war on their neighbors over honor or hunting grounds has no bearing over whether or not what somebody does to them is just or not. If it was, every single nation on Earth today would "forfeit the right to automatically be considered the good guys", no matter what the situation, from Poland the the US. Should I need to point out that in American politics being a vet is an automatic bonus to your election chances? Guess us humans with our oh-so-advanced culture still tend to grant high social status and even political power to our warriors...

[Bounty]

humans are bastards and that they should feel ashamed for being one

If that is what you got from the movie I dare say the problem is not so much with the story being told but by some very fucked up personal issues between your ears.

[adam_grif]

humans are bastards and that they should feel ashamed for being one

If that is what you got from the movie I dare say the problem is not so much with the story being told but by some very fucked up personal issues between your ears.

No, I mean the crowd of people who get upset by negative portrayals of humanity. It's very much a knee jerk reaction, and I didn't get that from Avatar, since I'm not seeing it until sometime early next week.

[Shroom Man 777]

adam: The Holocaust movie could have some Jews beating the SS because some German fell in love with their noble savage ways and went native inside his Schindlervatar and decided to save thousands of Jews without the SS knowing it. Or we could see a movie which has Partisans shooting Nazis in the face ala Daniel Craig. Or some not-so-glorious basterds killing Hitler in the ending act. Or, you could always have the Russians go to Berlin and ruin shit. Stas would love that.

Just because the Jews didn't drive the Germans out of Germany doesn't mean Avatar shouldn't get a happy ending with the native Ewoks dancing while the evil humans explode. What's wrong with a happy ending? Meh, screw you guys. It just makes me want to see that penguin movie I talked about before.

Negative portrayals of humanity? Oh, I guess Vasquez Rodriguez, Sigourney Ripley and Shaggy (and Sully Worthington himself) were negative portrayals of humanity because they decided to do the brave thing and defend the defenseless natives and risk their lives to save them against the ruthless genocidal warmongering milwankorporates? They were good guys, great guys.

[adam_grif]

adam: The Holocaust movie could have some Jews beating the SS because some German fell in love with their noble savage ways and went native inside his Schindlervatar and decided to save thousands of Jews without the SS knowing it.

I doubt anybody would have complained if the ending to Avatar was more a moral victory like that than actually beating them off in a straight up fight yeah?

What's wrong with a happy ending?

Pssh, didn't you get that memo? You know, the one that says true art is angsty

Negative portrayals of humanity?

You know, the whole "evil humans encroaching on good guys in touch with nature" meme. I'll see what happens when I get to see the movie, but the vibe I'm getting from this place is that it's about 2 steps removed from being Ferngully, thematically.

[Broomstick]

adam: The Holocaust movie could have some Jews beating the SS because some German fell in love with their noble savage ways and went native inside his Schindlervatar and decided to save thousands of Jews without the SS knowing it.

Spielberg made that one, it's called Schindler's List.

How the sequel plays out could affect how the first movie ending is viewed in a significant way. If the humans come back with nukes it's quite different than if they show up no more armed than before, to deal with the Na'vi now being in control.

Fact is, humans will never colonize Pandora - the place is toxic, even aside from the deadly wildlife. You'll never have Little House on the Pandoran Prairie because the space Ingalls can't breathe the air there. The only reasons for humans to be there are resource extraction and research. If the Na'vi find that extracting resources and selling them to the humans can keep the humans (aside from researchers) mostly off the planet that might, long term, be something to keep everyone happy. Or maybe both parties will be dickheads, which is more likely based on history.

Historically, native peoples have had victories over invaders -- just nothing enduring. It only works when the natives vastly outnumber the intruders (as is the case in Avatar) The only way the Na'vi are going to survive long term is if at least some of them seize human technology and knowledge and learn to use it.

[Shroom Man 777]

The sequel? What sequel?

[Broomstick]

Cameron has announced that he will make 2 sequels. Apparently opening week was good to him.

[PeZook]

The sequel? What sequel?

The film is raking in cash like there's no tomorrow, and the ending is quite open. A sequel is not out of the question

Anyway, I have to wonder: the Na'Vi won. Okay. What happens to Sully? He has to know he can't stay a Space Injun forever: the equipment used to control the avatar will eventually break down and/or run out of power. Being a crippled human, he'll become food for local wildlife in minutes.

I feel this is a very important plot thread left unresolved, and adds some tragism to the character. He went against his own superiors, and in doing that sacrificed everything, including a chance at a happy life as a Na'Vi. When the next ship comes (and it will, it's not like the ones in transit can just turn around), he'll be faced with a pretty nasty situation: not only will he and the scientists have to explain what happened to the crew, Sully himself will have a chance to go home, where he can live even if wheelchair bound. If he stays on Pandora, he's certain to die rather soon.

[Shroom Man 777]

Yeah? I thought he first said that he had no plans for sequels. Man, this'll probably mean we won't see any Battle Angel or whatever for a while. But, perhaps with the two sequels, Cameron will have more chances to explore in more depth the themes he dealt with in Avatar, though albeit in a rather simplistic way (which some found to be a bad thing, though to me not necessarily so). Perhaps Gil can finally see his poignant sad bad guys winning "this is what colonialism truly is" ending in the second film, ala Empire Strikes Back.

Hrm... thinking about this, and what you (Broomy!) said about colonizers getting their shit ruined in only xyz-circumstances, it made me think about the Philippines too. Our first encounter with the Spaniards was when the great explorer Magellan was circumnavigating the world, he tried to wage war against the natives with his cannons and guns, but he ended up getting stabbed in the face by a chieftain.

Then the Spaniards came and killed the crap out of the native Filipinos, converted the whole lot of us into Christianity, and stayed for another three hundred and thirty three years.

Man.


EDIT:


PeZook. The open ending of the movie basically had him undergo the same ritual as Sigourney Ripley, the one where they attempted to make Gaia transplant Sigourney Ripley's brain from her human body to her avatar. Presumably Jake really WAS going to go REALLY native. As in REALLY-REALLY native.

[PeZook]

Feh. It would be much better if it wasn't so elegantly resolved, and provided a basis for conflict in the next movie

[K. A. Pital]

Of course, but people do prefer to have less of a black and white morality.

In a legend? Fuck no.

Getting upset because the cat people trounced the technologically advanced people is a separate issue to people getting upset because the technologically advanced people are portrayed as Obviously Evil. One could either be a realism or tone thing (similar reason to why people might get upset if you made a holocaust movie where the Jews rise up in the third act and drive the Nazis out of Germany, aside from the obvious historical dissonance), the other could be either people getting sick of having it beaten into their thick skulls that humans are bastards and that they should feel ashamed for being one, OR because they don't like such a black and white gap between the two factions.

If someone "doesn't like the gap" between factions, maybe he shouldn't see the fucking movie or say it's bollocks if he does not like it.

What he shouldn't do is not try to rant and rave about how the human corporates are in fact good, and cat indians in fact bad. In this movie, the human faction aside from a few dissidents is utterly evil. Tough time dealing with your species portrayed in such a way? Here, have the cheese with whine.

Nazi Germans were undoubtedly advanced in technology. They were also evil. Hell, they use hapeless death camp prisoners as slave labour to build the most advanced (at the time) rocket tech in the world. Maybe that real life example just flew over people's head. I mean, "the tech people can't be evil" is a load of crap. Since when is high technology an evidence of goodness?

Technology is neutral. If a high tech civilization descends into genocidal barbarism, that is no fault of it's technology. It's probably the fault of the cultural norms of that civilization (PROFIT!!!) which is explicitly shown in the movie. The humans were not evil par se, and became evil only upon killing people for profit. And killing people for profit, is well, fucking text book evil. It's also damn realistic, really.

There's nothing in Avatar to suggest the Na'Vi are evil. There's nothing to suggest the "KILL PEOPLE FOR PROFIT" faction of humans (the other faction of like, 5 folks or so, doesn't like the maxim above) is good.

Go see the movie, because it's grand. I can't believe people can whine about shit without even looking.

I hope you take off the ideological "TECH SUPERIORITY = MORAL SUPERIORITY" rah rah when you sit into the cinema chair, and remember that Von Braun the rocket genius was a Nazi slavemaster at Mittelwerk who ordered new slaves into his facility and discussed the slave shipments as easily as he discussed minutiae of engines and chemicals. High tech and intellect are not automatically a moral high ground. No matter how much the racists would love it to be so.

Presumably Jake really WAS going to go REALLY native. As in REALLY-REALLY native.

I'm sorry for the spoilers, but in my (which is international) version of the movie, Spoiler

he just got Gaia teleported and ressurected in the Avatar body.

The movie ends with his eyes flashing wide open. There.

[Darth Wong]

If you were to genre-stamp the movie, what is it? I have seriously no idea what to expect, should I see this movie. Is it an action movie? A drama? Is it Aliens or District 9?

It's A Man Called Dancing With The Last Samurai.
See "A Man Called Horse", "Dances With Wolves", and "The Last Samurai".

I really enjoyed the film despite its rigid adherence to the genre formula. The characters are very well defined, the performances are good, and the execution is generally very competent and professional all around.

[Darth Wong]

Anyway, I have to wonder: the Na'Vi won. Okay. What happens to Sully? He has to know he can't stay a Space Injun forever: the equipment used to control the avatar will eventually break down and/or run out of power. Being a crippled human, he'll become food for local wildlife in minutes.

I feel this is a very important plot thread left unresolved, and adds some tragism to the character. He went against his own superiors, and in doing that sacrificed everything, including a chance at a happy life as a Na'Vi. When the next ship comes (and it will, it's not like the ones in transit can just turn around), he'll be faced with a pretty nasty situation: not only will he and the scientists have to explain what happened to the crew, Sully himself will have a chance to go home, where he can live even if wheelchair bound. If he stays on Pandora, he's certain to die rather soon.

Dude, you must not have been paying attention. That ritual at the end was intended to transfer his consciousness permanently to his avatar body. His human body died and stopped breathing in the process, hence the removal of his rebreather.

[Darth Wong]

Historically, native peoples have had victories over invaders -- just nothing enduring. It only works when the natives vastly outnumber the intruders (as is the case in Avatar) The only way the Na'vi are going to survive long term is if at least some of them seize human technology and knowledge and learn to use it.

True. In this case, they do have human scientists and one trained human soldier to act as advisers. That will help. Also, we should keep in mind that all of humanity is not necessarily gung ho for this operation. This was one corporation, and we don't even know if it was a particularly popular corporation back home (searching for a real-life parallel, the names "Halliburton" and "Blackwater" come to mind). Most likely Wade (I forget his character's name, so I'm using his character's name in Saving Private Ryan) will be made the scapegoat for this fiasco, since he was running it, he made the crucial decision to essentially go to war with the natives, and he unilaterally decided that the reduced extraction cost for getting one particularly rich and conveniently located vein was worth it.

If there is to be a criticism of the story, I would object to the premise that there was a huge mother lode of unobtanium beneath Home Tree. Unobtanium appears to have some kind of anti-gravity property, so it doesn't make sense that it would be located underground in some fertile soil area. If there were mother lodes of unobtanium to be found on Pandora, I would expect them to be located in the floating mountains.

Another criticism would be that Wade appears to be an imbecile. The reduced extraction cost of getting a supposedly rich vein of unobtanium from beneath Home Tree is justified by pointing out that there are no other such deposits within 200 km. Sorry, but 200 km is not really that far to go. However, imbecile short-sighted profit-obsessed corporate executives are not exactly unrealistic. We have plenty of examples in real life.

[PeZook]

Dude, you must not have been paying attention. That ritual at the end was intended to transfer his consciousness permanently to his avatar body. His human body died and stopped breathing in the process, hence the removal of his rebreather.

I haven't seen the movie yet ; I just spoilered myself like a motherfucker, but must've missed this bit (granted, it's all over the plot summaries, so yeah, I haven't been paying attention )

That's why I haven't thrown in my liked/disliked the movie bit yet. I'll be going to see it some time after Christmas.

[Shroom Man 777]

I really enjoyed the film despite its rigid adherence to the genre formula. The characters are very well defined, the performances are good, and the execution is generally very competent and professional all around.

My thoughts exactly. Sometimes, the standard "cliche'd" story just works well if that's what the story's supposed to be. Screw the subversions and the whatever, some of the best works and classics played things "straight".

Maybe that real life example just flew over people's head.

Flew over their heads like a V-2 rocket lifting off to strike targets in Britain.

Also, as for the Na'vi being savages and their warrior culture and value of hunting skill and machismo as being immoral or at least making them morally inferior to people... man. These aren't just your average shit-primitive hunter gatherers. The argument totally forgets the fact that these people are in bloody physiological and psychosocial commune with their entire bloody planet and the living beings that compose their ecosystem. I think the fact that their morality, as portrayed in the movie, stems from the fact that they recognize all forms of life and the regret to needlessly take it makes them somewhat more "enlightened" than some more needless violence-prone societies - like those people whose societal excesses lead to massive careless environmental devastation, where animals are bred en mass solely to be cooked and eaten as fattening fastfood in restaurants, and where killing or otherwise maligning harmless living people for profit and resources for technological bullshit luxuries are morally acceptable norms.


DW:

I think the fact that they were trying to use Avatars as a way to find a peaceful solution to "make it look good" was probably due to political pressure back on Earth. Maybe the milwankers and corporates wanted to say "oh we tried using the Avatars but the natives were just so uncooperative so we bulldozed their silly trees" as excuse, so that their half-hearted attempt at diplomacy and subsequent heavy-handed military intervention would "look good" or be excusable/acceptable/justifiable.

Of course, they fucked it all up because they were a bunch of pricks.