Avatar review thread

[adam_grif]

I hope you take off the ideological "TECH SUPERIORITY = MORAL SUPERIORITY" rah rah when you sit into the cinema chair

When did I say that the more advanced your technology was, the more correct your morality was?

[Darth Wong]

I hope you take off the ideological "TECH SUPERIORITY = MORAL SUPERIORITY" rah rah when you sit into the cinema chair

When did I say that the more advanced your technology was, the more correct your morality was?

You didn't. You did, however, say that you're sick of industrialized people looking bad in "noble savage" fiction. This seems like an utterly pointless criticism; it's not as if noble savage criticism dominates the cultural landscape, and in the case of the NaVi, it's not just propaganda bullshit. They really do live in harmony with their environment.

As for the fact that you're sick of corporations looking like materialistic douchebags who only care about profit margins and not the environment or the welfare of others ... wake the fuck up and read the news.

[Companion Cube]

I think the fact that they were trying to use Avatars as a way to find a peaceful solution to "make it look good" was probably due to political pressure back on Earth. Maybe the milwankers and corporates wanted to say "oh we tried using the Avatars but the natives were just so uncooperative so we bulldozed their silly trees" as excuse, so that their half-hearted attempt at diplomacy and subsequent heavy-handed military intervention would "look good" or be excusable/acceptable/justifiable.

Quaritch lampoons this idea during the Home-tree attack, when he notices Sully tied up on the frame. "Well, well, well, it seems diplomacy has failed".

[Knife]

True. In this case, they do have human scientists and one trained human soldier to act as advisers. That will help.

Yeah, with a pinch of salt; the companion website linked a couple times in this thread, shows that Hell's Gate relies on some sort of automated machining tools to produce most of the equipment seen on Pandora. Everything from their helicopter things to the big mining trucks and even small arms from local resources instead of shipping the stuff from Earth.

With the destruction of Home Tree, Jake Sully has the opertunity to use his knowledge of Earth Military Tactics and Strategy, along with the remaining scientists ability to use the machining tools, to not only arm the Na'vi with those big M-60 looking guns Sully had during his first mission as an Avatar, but also fabricate the Na'vi a new home somewhere with some decent facilities.

I wonder if the humans that stayed behind would be able to not only access the satellites in orbit but maybe re-task them for an early warning against more human ships. If Cameron really wants Indians v European settlers, having the Indians getting modern arms isn't that far outside of realistic since it did happen, and happened a lot.

[adam_grif]

You didn't. You did, however, say that you're sick of industrialized people looking bad in "noble savage" fiction.

No I never.

I just trawled through the last 10 pages of this thread to confirm as much. What I said on the last page was:

Getting upset because the cat people trounced the technologically advanced people is a separate issue to people getting upset because the technologically advanced people are portrayed as Obviously Evil. One could either be a realism or tone thing (similar reason to why people might get upset if you made a holocaust movie where the Jews rise up in the third act and drive the Nazis out of Germany, aside from the obvious historical dissonance), the other could be either people getting sick of having it beaten into their thick skulls that humans are bastards and that they should feel ashamed for being one, OR because they don't like such a black and white gap between the two factions.

As in, explaining the complaints from the "milwankers" that have been leveled against this movie, and their apparent cause.

This was followed by a statement which reads:

I'll see what happens when I get to see the movie, but the vibe I'm getting from this place is that it's about 2 steps removed from being Ferngully, thematically.

Being like Ferngully isn't annoying because it's saying we should preserve the forests and nature and so on, it's annoying because it's overly preachy about an issue that has already been discussed to death. I don't know if Avatar is overly preachy, but I've read reviews that said it was. Even some of the more positive reviews I scanned through when the first ones started hitting Rotten Tomatoes were saying that the message it's sending wasn't exactly subtle. I'll find out for myself when I watch it.

[Shroom Man 777]

Doesn't help to be subtle in sending messages when we're currently deforestating the entire Amazon and all that. People might not, uh, be able to hear subtle messages over the sound of chainsaws and the cries of "TIMBER".

If a tree falls down in a forest where all the other trees have been cut down, what sound does it make?

[Darth Wong]

You didn't. You did, however, say that you're sick of industrialized people looking bad in "noble savage" fiction.

No I never.

I just trawled through the last 10 pages of this thread to confirm as much. What I said on the last page was:

Getting upset because the cat people trounced the technologically advanced people is a separate issue to people getting upset because the technologically advanced people are portrayed as Obviously Evil. One could either be a realism or tone thing (similar reason to why people might get upset if you made a holocaust movie where the Jews rise up in the third act and drive the Nazis out of Germany, aside from the obvious historical dissonance), the other could be either people getting sick of having it beaten into their thick skulls that humans are bastards and that they should feel ashamed for being one, OR because they don't like such a black and white gap between the two factions.

Nice hair-splitting.

As in, explaining the complaints from the "milwankers" that have been leveled against this movie, and their apparent cause.

This was followed by a statement which reads:

I'll see what happens when I get to see the movie, but the vibe I'm getting from this place is that it's about 2 steps removed from being Ferngully, thematically.

Being like Ferngully isn't annoying because it's saying we should preserve the forests and nature and so on, it's annoying because it's overly preachy about an issue that has already been discussed to death. I don't know if Avatar is overly preachy, but I've read reviews that said it was. Even some of the more positive reviews I scanned through when the first ones started hitting Rotten Tomatoes were saying that the message it's sending wasn't exactly subtle. I'll find out for myself when I watch it.

In other words, you are upset about a particular thematic mood in a film which you have not even seen. We're not even talking about logical plot points; you are whining about a subjective impression in a film which you have not actually watched. What the fuck.

[neoolong]

If there is to be a criticism of the story, I would object to the premise that there was a huge mother lode of unobtanium beneath Home Tree. Unobtanium appears to have some kind of anti-gravity property, so it doesn't make sense that it would be located underground in some fertile soil area. If there were mother lodes of unobtanium to be found on Pandora, I would expect them to be located in the floating mountains.

The floating property is due to the presence of intense magnetic fields which they called the Flux Vortex. Those intense fields aren't present near Hometree I guess, so that's probably why it's still in the ground.

The thing under the sample in Selfridge's office is why that bit floats I would imagine; like an artificial Flux Vortex. Whether it makes sense is another question, but that's what the reason was I believe.

[Darth Wong]

If there is to be a criticism of the story, I would object to the premise that there was a huge mother lode of unobtanium beneath Home Tree. Unobtanium appears to have some kind of anti-gravity property, so it doesn't make sense that it would be located underground in some fertile soil area. If there were mother lodes of unobtanium to be found on Pandora, I would expect them to be located in the floating mountains.

The floating property is due to the presence of intense magnetic fields which they called the Flux Vortex. Those intense fields aren't present near Hometree I guess, so that's probably why it's still in the ground.

The thing under the sample in Selfridge's office is why that bit floats I would imagine; like an artificial Flux Vortex. Whether it makes sense is another question, but that's what the reason was I believe.

That still doesn't really explain it. Even if there's a bigger deposit under Home Tree, it still means there must be lots of the stuff in the floating mountains, or else they wouldn't float. The thing is, since they float, they should be remarkably easy to extract ore from. You simply tow it away from the flux vortex. It will float lower and lower until it crashes into the ground, whereupon you simply carve up the rubble and extract ore from it. I don't see how starting a war could be easier or cheaper than that.

[Broomstick]

I believe some of the background material outside of the film addresses that, at least in part. I seem to recall a reference to an attempt at doing just what you suggest, mining the floating mountains, that ended in disaster and thus that approach was deemed to hazardous. I don't have details, as I have largely NOT read the "extras", being more interested in seeing the film as a stand alone film rather than something that required several hours of study before going into the theater.

[Darth Mall]

I haven't seen this mentioned before, but seeing as the unobtanium is some sort of superconductor, and it seems to be in large concentrations in places the Na'Vi live/worship, it stands to reason that it is probably part of the "brain" of the planet.

As for the movie, I liked it. It wasn't the be all end all of movies, with a bit generic of a plot, but it was beautifully presented. I don't feel like I wasted my money watching it. And the 3D effects were well done, no cheesey jump out the screen effects.

[GrayAnderson]

Damn it, I can't believe we have downright Nazi morons in a thread dedicated to a review of a fantastic and solid Good vs Evil space opera movie. I mean... Shit. *waves hands* Can't add much to what fgalkin said. Sickening.

"Let's make the Holocaust more efficient! Damn that pinko green communist primitivist Cameron, death to lower races!"

And fuck you idiot pathetic companion book readers and minutiae researchers who look for an excuse to cheer that genocide. There was NOTHING (in very big, large fucking red letters) in the movie itself that would suggest "Unobtainium" was in any way critical to human survival. Not in ANY way. The movie is a complete work of art. It spells out everything from A to Z, the story is told, villains and heroes are set, and that is about it.

I presumed the movie (and Cameron by proxy) just used it (and the RDA) as metaphors for "any natural resource Earth wants badly" (which is why the ridiculous monicker "Unobtainium") and "RDA" for "Asshole Greedy Corporation" (a-la Union Carbide or the like). Nothing indicated "Unobtanium" was critical to anything but the profits for the greedy fucktard guy played by the fucking pesky actor (good performance, actuallY!)

But it seems someone looked deeper! The corporate Nazis weren't about to exterminate people to plunder their land! In fact, these White Knights were glorious defenders of the lives of little humanses in DAS VATERLAND, and fuck anyone who thinks otherwise. It says so in some fucking books which say Cat Indians are really the bad guys. Or rather, I think so. It was not the Humans genociding Cat Indians. It was the Cat Indians killing Humans. God damn, by right it was not Germans massacring Jews and Slavs! Instead they were saving the German RACE from extinction due to a JEWISH war or every Master Race! Perfidious Cat Indians! Holy fucking crap.

Gray fucking Anderson, you stink of shit.

1) Nice to see you, too, Stas. How're you doing?

2) By "There was NOTHING (in very big, large fucking red letters)" do you mean "NOTHING " or "NOTHING " ? Just wondering.

3) If you're referring to the arguments apparently going on in the other thread(s) about "why didn't the RDA just nuke them from orbit", I have not been in that crowd at any point. Please direct Holocaust-related criticism at them. Only throwing this out there because I've seen some of these particular arguments made that were clarified to stem from that.

4) More to the point on that particular comparison, comparing the planned mass murder of millions of people (let's simply classify them as 'sentient beings' for the moment to avoid getting caught up in whether to call the Na'vi people) to an attempt to remove a group of sentient beings from a piece of property with minimal casualties is nonsense, and a pre-emptive strike against a gathering enemy military force doesn't work, either. Somewhere along the line I missed the mass graves and the firing squads; could you point them out to me? No matter how many times y'all say it, the analogy doesn't work. Please try another.

5) Whether Cameron wants X to stand for Y or not is actually rather irrelevant in my view. What is depicted on the screen, in the book, etc., is what is relevant. To the extent that the analogy gets fumbled, that's not my problem, it's Cameron's.

6) Finally, I somehow think the general if-then that I've been putting forward is getting lost. If the resource is as vital as I interpret it to be, which I believe based on X, Y, and Z (I've been over this before and I'm going to assume that you read a couple of my posts based on your explosive reaction), then such-and-such is justified in acquiring it. If A then B. If not A then not B.

I think the fact that they were trying to use Avatars as a way to find a peaceful solution to "make it look good" was probably due to political pressure back on Earth. Maybe the milwankers and corporates wanted to say "oh we tried using the Avatars but the natives were just so uncooperative so we bulldozed their silly trees" as excuse, so that their half-hearted attempt at diplomacy and subsequent heavy-handed military intervention would "look good" or be excusable/acceptable/justifiable.

Quaritch lampoons this idea during the Home-tree attack, when he notices Sully tied up on the frame. "Well, well, well, it seems diplomacy has failed".

Considering that Quaritch used the non-lethal gas to try and force the Na'vi out, didn't fire until fired upon (the gas was not live ammo, though I do suspect that the distinction was [understandably] lost on the Na'vi), and that Selfridge sent Jake and Grace back in even with the impending attack to try and get the Na'vi out, even at the end there I stand by my opinion that the attempt to prevent/minimize casualties among non-combatants was bona fide. Note that Selfridge didn't say 'get your avatars out of there' (i.e. protect your very expensive company equipment), he gave them permission to try and get the Na'vi out. Surprisingly, he made a decision that was not likely to be financially beneficial.

As to Quaritch's comment, considering that he'd already seen Jake's "they won't negotiate" bit, my guess is that he was looking down at the scene on the ground and thinking "Gee, didn't see this coming...", particularly in light of his earlier remarks. It was looking down on a scene and seeing a variation on what he expected to see.

[GrayAnderson]

If there is to be a criticism of the story, I would object to the premise that there was a huge mother lode of unobtanium beneath Home Tree. Unobtanium appears to have some kind of anti-gravity property, so it doesn't make sense that it would be located underground in some fertile soil area. If there were mother lodes of unobtanium to be found on Pandora, I would expect them to be located in the floating mountains.

The floating property is due to the presence of intense magnetic fields which they called the Flux Vortex. Those intense fields aren't present near Hometree I guess, so that's probably why it's still in the ground.

The thing under the sample in Selfridge's office is why that bit floats I would imagine; like an artificial Flux Vortex. Whether it makes sense is another question, but that's what the reason was I believe.

That still doesn't really explain it. Even if there's a bigger deposit under Home Tree, it still means there must be lots of the stuff in the floating mountains, or else they wouldn't float. The thing is, since they float, they should be remarkably easy to extract ore from. You simply tow it away from the flux vortex. It will float lower and lower until it crashes into the ground, whereupon you simply carve up the rubble and extract ore from it. I don't see how starting a war could be easier or cheaper than that.

It's possible that the equipment available just wasn't capable of that, particularly if the vortex isn't a perfectly even gradient. I'm reminded of sometimes when I hold two magnets against eachother when they're trying to float away from eachother how often when I let go, one flies away.

Also, if there really was a messy accident with a lot of people killed, it's quite possible that between the risk of legal action in the event of a repeat disaster (yeah, someone will sue sooner or later, and let's not forget some of the massive single-case tobacco judgments and how expensive fighting those off has been) and the possibility of lost equipment and manpower (both being somewhat finite resources, in this case manpower being less readily available if the on-site fabrication facilities can make all the equipment they need), a decision was probably made not to try and go for the mountains. Simply put, the operation might be anywhere from "extraordinarily expensive and extremely difficult" to "logistically impossible with the equipment we have now".

[Darth Wong]

4) More to the point on that particular comparison, comparing the planned mass murder of millions of people (let's simply classify them as 'sentient beings' for the moment to avoid getting caught up in whether to call the Na'vi people) to an attempt to remove a group of sentient beings from a piece of property with minimal casualties is nonsense, and a pre-emptive strike against a gathering enemy military force doesn't work, either. Somewhere along the line I missed the mass graves and the firing squads; could you point them out to me? No matter how many times y'all say it, the analogy doesn't work. Please try another.

The fact that the Holocaust killed more people does not mean that this is not a similar kind of attitude. It's not about the sheer numbers; if we use your idiot logic, it is impossible to be evil toward the Na'Vi because there aren't enough of them to constitute a Holocaust no matter what we do.

As for "minimal casualties", that's bullshit. They tried to cover their ass by pretending to limit casualties, but they couldn't even wait until the gas had dispersed before unleashing the high explosives and bringing down the tree. And guess what happens when you bring down a huge structure with people in and around it?

Oh wait, that's only an act of evil if it's Al-Qaeda doing it to the World Trade Centre, right? It doesn't count when it's a bunch of primitives in a tree, right?

BTW, there were no mass graves because they wouldn't give them even that small dignity. Instead, they left the bodies to rot.

6) Finally, I somehow think the general if-then that I've been putting forward is getting lost. If the resource is as vital as I interpret it to be, which I believe based on X, Y, and Z (I've been over this before and I'm going to assume that you read a couple of my posts based on your explosive reaction), then such-and-such is justified in acquiring it. If A then B. If not A then not B.

Your if-then is based on a stupid set of arbitrary assumptions. If it is as vital to humanity as you imagine it to be, there would not be one private company with a monopoly on its extraction. That's utterly idiotic.

[Darth Wong]

That still doesn't really explain it. Even if there's a bigger deposit under Home Tree, it still means there must be lots of the stuff in the floating mountains, or else they wouldn't float. The thing is, since they float, they should be remarkably easy to extract ore from. You simply tow it away from the flux vortex. It will float lower and lower until it crashes into the ground, whereupon you simply carve up the rubble and extract ore from it. I don't see how starting a war could be easier or cheaper than that.

It's possible that the equipment available just wasn't capable of that, particularly if the vortex isn't a perfectly even gradient. I'm reminded of sometimes when I hold two magnets against eachother when they're trying to float away from each other how often when I let go, one flies away.

Don't be silly; you attach rockets on it and you point it at a relatively uninhabited area. What's the worst it can do? Fall? That's the objective.

Also, if there really was a messy accident with a lot of people killed, it's quite possible that between the risk of legal action in the event of a repeat disaster (yeah, someone will sue sooner or later, and let's not forget some of the massive single-case tobacco judgments and how expensive fighting those off has been) and the possibility of lost equipment and manpower (both being somewhat finite resources, in this case manpower being less readily available if the on-site fabrication facilities can make all the equipment they need), a decision was probably made not to try and go for the mountains. Simply put, the operation might be anywhere from "extraordinarily expensive and extremely difficult" to "logistically impossible with the equipment we have now".

See above.

[GrayAnderson]

4) More to the point on that particular comparison, comparing the planned mass murder of millions of people (let's simply classify them as 'sentient beings' for the moment to avoid getting caught up in whether to call the Na'vi people) to an attempt to remove a group of sentient beings from a piece of property with minimal casualties is nonsense, and a pre-emptive strike against a gathering enemy military force doesn't work, either. Somewhere along the line I missed the mass graves and the firing squads; could you point them out to me? No matter how many times y'all say it, the analogy doesn't work. Please try another.

The fact that the Holocaust killed more people does not mean that this is not a similar kind of attitude. It's not about the sheer numbers; if we use your idiot logic, it is impossible to be evil toward the Na'Vi because there aren't enough of them to constitute a Holocaust no matter what we do.

As for "minimal casualties", that's bullshit. They tried to cover their ass by pretending to limit casualties, but they couldn't even wait until the gas had dispersed before unleashing the high explosives and bringing down the tree. And guess what happens when you bring down a huge structure with people in and around it?

Oh wait, that's only an act of evil if it's Al-Qaeda doing it to the World Trade Centre, right? It doesn't count when it's a bunch of primitives in a tree, right?

6) Finally, I somehow think the general if-then that I've been putting forward is getting lost. If the resource is as vital as I interpret it to be, which I believe based on X, Y, and Z (I've been over this before and I'm going to assume that you read a couple of my posts based on your explosive reaction), then such-and-such is justified in acquiring it. If A then B. If not A then not B.

Your if-then is based on a stupid set of arbitrary assumptions. If it is as vital to humanity as you imagine it to be, there would not be one private company with a monopoly on its extraction. That's utterly idiotic.

Wong,
I'm not using sheer numbers, I'm using intent. The Nazis had a clear, stated intent to wipe out the Jews, and clearly geared their equipment to doing so. The RDA had no such clear intent (and if anything had an entirely contrary intent...you generally don't tell people to get out of the way when you want to kill them), and the only attack that was carried out with the intent of causing casualties was aimed at a growing military encampment.

As to the private monopoly point, I disagree. In particular, I am reminded of numerous countries using state-chartered oil companies to manage extraction and distribution. Pemex, Petrobras, etc. come to mind as companies established as such. More to the point, those companies aren't even facing the capital requirements that RDA faced setting up facilities in another star system.

That still doesn't really explain it. Even if there's a bigger deposit under Home Tree, it still means there must be lots of the stuff in the floating mountains, or else they wouldn't float. The thing is, since they float, they should be remarkably easy to extract ore from. You simply tow it away from the flux vortex. It will float lower and lower until it crashes into the ground, whereupon you simply carve up the rubble and extract ore from it. I don't see how starting a war could be easier or cheaper than that.

It's possible that the equipment available just wasn't capable of that, particularly if the vortex isn't a perfectly even gradient. I'm reminded of sometimes when I hold two magnets against eachother when they're trying to float away from each other how often when I let go, one flies away.

Don't be silly; you attach rockets on it and you point it at a relatively uninhabited area. What's the worst it can do? Fall? That's the objective.

Also, if there really was a messy accident with a lot of people killed, it's quite possible that between the risk of legal action in the event of a repeat disaster (yeah, someone will sue sooner or later, and let's not forget some of the massive single-case tobacco judgments and how expensive fighting those off has been) and the possibility of lost equipment and manpower (both being somewhat finite resources, in this case manpower being less readily available if the on-site fabrication facilities can make all the equipment they need), a decision was probably made not to try and go for the mountains. Simply put, the operation might be anywhere from "extraordinarily expensive and extremely difficult" to "logistically impossible with the equipment we have now".

See above.

I actually hadn't thought of that solution to the situation. Not the worst idea I've heard, and depending on the size of some of the smaller rocks might even work (I'm thinking that the bigger ones would probably be just too big to do this with). Not sure if it would be "doable", but I certainly can't rule that out (though neither can I rule out idiocy on the RDA's part not thinking this up as a solution).

[PeZook]

Personally, I think Selfridge and co. simply thought that forcing the Na'Vi to move in some way would be easier than organizing the operation to mine the floating mountains, without this necessarily being true. Bad calls like those happen all the time in reality.

[GrayAnderson]

Personally, I think Selfridge and co. simply thought that forcing the Na'Vi to move in some way would be easier than organizing the operation to mine the floating mountains, without this necessarily being true. Bad calls like those happen all the time in reality.

Well, and one operation "crashing" (or whatever happened to it) could have basically resulted in the mountains getting cut off of the list of workable places to mine indefinitely. The company may not be all heart when it comes to its workers, but if someone passed a memo around predicting continued casualty rates in the mountains that were unacceptably high, Selfridge taking a deep breath and cutting off mining plans up there to keep casualties under control is logical behavior. It's like the old saying that a cat which lands on a hot stove won't land on a hot one, but they won't land on a cold one either.

[Darth Wong]

I'm not using sheer numbers, I'm using intent. The Nazis had a clear, stated intent to wipe out the Jews, and clearly geared their equipment to doing so. The RDA had no such clear intent (and if anything had an entirely contrary intent...you generally don't tell people to get out of the way when you want to kill them), and the only attack that was carried out with the intent of causing casualties was aimed at a growing military encampment.

I see you decided to simply ignore the part where I pointed out the parallels between bringing down Home Tree and bringing down the WTC. Both acts were intended to cause casualties, no matter what ass-covering disclaimers they might use. You could almost see the smirk on Captain Douchebag's face when he spoke of how there would be minimal casualties. For the second time, did he wait until the Na'Vi had gotten clear before bringing down a huge skyscraper-sized structure on them? No. That's intent.

He gave away his real agenda later: "blow a hole in their racial memory so big they won't come within a thousand klicks of us". The fact that you're making excuses for him and carefully snipping out key points you can't answer is just proof that you're either a liar or an idiot.

As to the private monopoly point, I disagree. In particular, I am reminded of numerous countries using state-chartered oil companies to manage extraction and distribution. Pemex, Petrobras, etc. come to mind as companies established as such. More to the point, those companies aren't even facing the capital requirements that RDA faced setting up facilities in another star system.

Since when are a single small country's oil exports vital to the survival of humanity?

I actually hadn't thought of that solution to the situation. Not the worst idea I've heard, and depending on the size of some of the smaller rocks might even work (I'm thinking that the bigger ones would probably be just too big to do this with). Not sure if it would be "doable", but I certainly can't rule that out (though neither can I rule out idiocy on the RDA's part not thinking this up as a solution).

The fact that Wade thought that "within 200 klicks" was some kind of limiting factor for an interstellar organization already indicates that they're idiots. But more to the point, they consider the Na'Vi to be a bunch of worthless near-animals. Wade himself made this clear when he dismissed the scientists' objections.

[Enosh]

I think the fact that their morality, as portrayed in the movie, stems from the fact that they recognize all forms of life and the regret to needlessly take it makes them somewhat more "enlightened" than some more needless violence-prone societies - like those people whose societal excesses lead to massive careless environmental devastation, where animals are bred en mass solely to be cooked and eaten as fattening fastfood in restaurants, and where killing or otherwise maligning harmless living people for profit and resources for technological bullshit luxuries are morally acceptable norms.

there is a nice saying
"it's easy to shit if you have a full ass" (works better in my language tbh)
stuff like this can only come from people living in the western world, who never actualy had to experience the hardship of living "enlightened" like this

I liked the movie and the "zomg you dissagree with me, you are a NAZI!" on here is just hilarious

[adam_grif]

Doesn't help to be subtle in sending messages when we're currently deforestating the entire Amazon and all that. People might not, uh, be able to hear subtle messages over the sound of chainsaws and the cries of "TIMBER".

If a tree falls down in a forest where all the other trees have been cut down, what sound does it make?

SQUAWK!

Wait, no, wrong thread.

In other words, you are upset about a particular thematic mood in a film which you have not even seen. We're not even talking about logical plot points; you are whining about a subjective impression in a film which you have not actually watched. What the fuck.

Actually I wasn't whining at all, unless expressing a concern others have had with it is "whining". I even said I was reserving judgment until I'd seen it.

[GrayAnderson]

I'm not using sheer numbers, I'm using intent. The Nazis had a clear, stated intent to wipe out the Jews, and clearly geared their equipment to doing so. The RDA had no such clear intent (and if anything had an entirely contrary intent...you generally don't tell people to get out of the way when you want to kill them), and the only attack that was carried out with the intent of causing casualties was aimed at a growing military encampment.

I see you decided to simply ignore the part where I pointed out the parallels between bringing down Home Tree and bringing down the WTC. Both acts were intended to cause casualties, no matter what ass-covering disclaimers they might use. You could almost see the smirk on Captain Douchebag's face when he spoke of how there would be minimal casualties. For the second time, did he wait until the Na'Vi had gotten clear before bringing down a huge skyscraper-sized structure on them? No. That's intent.

He gave away his real agenda later: "blow a hole in their racial memory so big they won't come within a thousand klicks of us". The fact that you're making excuses for him and carefully snipping out key points you can't answer is just proof that you're either a liar or an idiot.

Shit, I scanned that paragraph over. Mea culpa; I've dealt with so much of that Holocaust crap that I ignored much of its content out of hand, and for that I do apologize, Mike. Let me go down the list:
1) The spear-throwers and bow-and-arrow folks technically opened hostilities with their shots at Quaritch's forces. Given what we saw later in the movie, they're clearly capable of downing helicopters with some luck and/or planning. Also, we see the Na'vi flyers running up to get their banshees, presumably for an airborne attack. If the Na'vi hadn't opened fire and had just hightailed it out of there, I do expect that Quaritch would have held his fire longer (even if he didn't particularly care to).

2) You compare the situation to 9/11, and I recognized that comparison as being valid (unlike the Holocaust one). I had a friend who had the ill fortune to have to commute home from school in New Jersey that afternoon, and the reactions on the part of the Na'vi did strike me as similar. I recognize that much, and I think I did note something along these lines in an earlier post; it was either that or a note along the lines of Dresden or Hiroshima.

The way I see that scene is that the non-lethal gas strike brought about the shots from the Na'vi at the RDA forces, which in turn bring about Quaritch ordering the missile strike. Quaritch is definitely itchy on the trigger finger (surprise, surprise...most Marines I've known tend to be) and he doesn't give much of a shit about the Na'vi, but he's also not going in there with the intent to massacre them.

3) As to the "blow a hole in their racial memory" line, I'm reminded of how Ender confronted the bullies twice in Ender's Game: Don't win this fight, win the next few before they begin. Quaritch making that strike qualifies, in my mind, as a similar (if more thought-out) move, and it is against where the opposing force is massing. It is a fully legitimate target in light of being used as an enemy rally point, hostilities are already underway, and so blowing it up is a fully legitimate move within the context of the war.

As to the private monopoly point, I disagree. In particular, I am reminded of numerous countries using state-chartered oil companies to manage extraction and distribution. Pemex, Petrobras, etc. come to mind as companies established as such. More to the point, those companies aren't even facing the capital requirements that RDA faced setting up facilities in another star system.

Since when are a single small country's oil exports vital to the survival of humanity?

My point in that statement is that countries are often in the habit of handing out monopolies to corporations for vital things. In the UK, to offer an example, there was a national water company, a national coal company, etc. Now, these were state-owned, but they were still monopolies and still given state sanction. And that's not even talking about the RL East India Company, which had a legal monopoly on trade from India for I forget how many decades.

By contrast, I can also rattle off a decent number of privately-controlled monopolies in the US, usually utilities. Granted the monopolies often bid against eachother for rights in a given area, but I can also recall how in many cases a franchise would remain under control of the same company for decades because nobody had the capital to take over their operations, the infrastructure to back it up in the area, and the interest in a given area's franchise.

If anything, unobtanium from Pandora qualifies as a natural monopoly (the infrastructure investments being massive to get a single operation off the ground). Looking over at the movie's wiki, the Interplanetery Commerce Administration gave them that monopoly...which assuming that the ICA is a government agency puts it in the same category as most of the monopolies I've mentioned. They're mining something a lot more valuable than the average government-sanctioned monopoly, but in light of the capital expenditures involved, I can't say I'm shocked.

I actually hadn't thought of that solution to the situation. Not the worst idea I've heard, and depending on the size of some of the smaller rocks might even work (I'm thinking that the bigger ones would probably be just too big to do this with). Not sure if it would be "doable", but I certainly can't rule that out (though neither can I rule out idiocy on the RDA's part not thinking this up as a solution).

The fact that Wade thought that "within 200 klicks" was some kind of limiting factor for an interstellar organization already indicates that they're idiots. But more to the point, they consider the Na'Vi to be a bunch of worthless near-animals. Wade himself made this clear when he dismissed the scientists' objections.

[/quote]

Who's Wade? I'm going to assume that you're referring to Parker Selfridge...and with him, I can't say that I blame him staring at Grace like she just said she was from Mars when she seems to have come out of the blue at the last minute talking about a planet-wide consciousness. The viewers know that there's quite a bit to that from the scene where Jake links into the trees with Neytiri; as far as I can tell from that scene, this is the first time that Grace has dropped this on Parker's desk.

As to the 200 km operating limit, I didn't see anything bigger than a trailer get carried long-distance by helicopter in the movie. Setting up a second base runs into issues with how long it would take (if you need to send for equipment, that's 6-8 years of turnaround time), keeping it, staffed, supplied, and secure (you'd need either more ships or more space on the ships to get the people down there, not to mention starting equipment for the base...and not to mention more weapons, etc. to deal with just the wildlife).

At the same time, you do have a limit how far you can send out those trucks and hope for a one-day round trip and/or plan for military backup as needed. The issues of the toxic environment are mentioned throughout the film and outside material, after all, and so I don't think it comes as a surprise that multi-day expeditions in the trucks hit problems. Running a ground operation is not the same thing as being able to fly from star system to star system.

[K. A. Pital]

Whether Cameron wants X to stand for Y or not is actually rather irrelevant in my view. What is depicted on the screen, in the book, etc., is what is relevant

On screen, period. In the movie there is nothing suggesting Unobtainum is critical to humans to the point they would die without it (which is obviously not the case), merely that it has obscene extraction profits. That is all the movie has. I already poined out that high profits and valuability of a material do not mean it's critical to human survival (case in point, the infamous African blood diamonds which are a fucking perfect analogy for unobtanium).

The Na'Vi got killed for RDA's profits, and that was it. I couldn't give a crap about some companion fuckbook no one gives a damn about, which you read in your extreme nerdiness to prove "the RDA was right".

[Shroom Man 777]

Why the fuck are people trying to justify this shit at all? They try to compare it to the usefulness of oil, too.

Are you assholes trying to say that funding and propping up regimes in the Middle East that routinely brutalize and abuse women and minorities, waging proxy-wars between Arab factions, funding terror groups against political opponents (terror groups that end up biting your ass and flying skyscrapers in your buildings), and basically perpetuating the fucked up situation in that whole miserable region is justifiable so you assholes can have your SUVs, can have enough black gold to feed fuel to your other decadent First World excesses, and can basically prop up your vital "way of life" that's basically overindulgent while the rest of the less-fortunate world makes do and survives on much less?

Fuck you. I hope blue alien space cats fucking spear you in the face and feed you to their space dogs. Bunch of fucks.

[mr friendly guy]

Whether Cameron wants X to stand for Y or not is actually rather irrelevant in my view. What is depicted on the screen, in the book, etc., is what is relevant

On screen, period. In the movie there is nothing suggesting Unobtainum is critical to humans to the point they would die without it (which is obviously not the case), merely that it has obscene extraction profits. .

But Stas, don't you know, if its expensive it must be essential, because the market is magically right huh huh. I guess I must be dying without my Action Comics #1 because you know, being expensive it must be essential to my well being.

But I do have one question for GrayAnderson. How can Jake's actions be morally reprehensible if by your reasoning both sides in a conflict are both right, after all its right for the humans to take what they want, and its right for the Na'vi to defend themselves? By your ethics system there is no different in either side so what is wrong with Jake picking the Na'vi side?

On another unrelated note, is the handbook actually any good? For the first time in the last few years I don't have to work boxing day so I can go to the sales.