The Salvation War: Pantheocide. Part Eighty One Up

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Re: The Salvation War: Pantheocide. Part Forty Three Up

Post by Simon_Jester »

Emerson33260 wrote:Unlike the pyrotechnic specialists, there is no real test for a commander other than combat. The commander may not get a passing grade, but the only reason to kick him to the curb is a failure to fight at all. The old saying that "it takes 15,000 casualties to train a major general" seems to me to be a reasonable approximation of reality. (For the picky: yes, I have seen a lot of different numbers in that quote, and a number of different attributions, too.)
As I recall Stuart's essay, for that matter, Commander Edell's mistakes were less to blame than many of the other factors involved. His main error was screwing up ship identification because he had been directed to go after an Egyptian warship, not a neutral vessel. He assumed that he was going after such a ship... which is exactly what his superiors had ordered him to do. "Go to this area and intercept the Egyptian warship that just bombarded the coast." Of course, in reality there had been no bombardment and no Egyptian warship, but Edell had no way of knowing that.

He also messed up his estimate of the target's speed, which led him to attack when his rules of engagement would strictly require him not to... but this mistake ties into the previous error. Edell's real sin was seeing what he expected to see, not what was really there.
Gil Hamilton wrote:
The standards of the US Navy are not any higher. Google "USS Vincennes" and "Iran Air flight 655". Captain Will C. Rogers III was subjected to no penalty at all for killing 290 people in error, unless that action was the difference between making admiral and retiring as captain.
And that's shit. That's no way to run a professional military. You see, if those pyrotechnics guys fuck up and burn some audience members due to poorly set up displays, they get fired and possibly worse.

How do you justify people whose job it is to be armed to the teeth and operate things like a guided missile cruiser or an FAC having so little professional standards? They should have the mother of all liability, not "Whoops, you accidentally killed several dozen people out of sheer negligence and helped shoot up a ship belonging to just about your only ally. As punishment, we are demoting you, you bad boy. Let that be a lesson to you!"
There's a really huge problem with doing that.

Let's say you drop the hammer on any military officer who screws up and kills a large number of people by mistake. That sounds like a good idea a priori. But what happens then in other ambiguous situations? What if the enemy launches a surprise attack, or if attack craft are dispatched to intercept an enemy ship cruising in waters frequented by neutral shipping? If the military has a strong institutional memory of officers getting their balls handed to them on a plate for making mistakes in those situations, they're going to be very nervous about acting aggressively to investigate and deal with possible threats.

After all, they don't know if the target they were assigned to intercept was identified based on faulty intelligence; they don't have control over errors made at the staff level. If they cannot be absolutely sure that they are dealing with a genuine foe, and you go far out of your way to ruin anyone who shoots at neutrals by mistake... they're going to make damned sure they aren't dealing with a neutral.

Which would be fine, except that sometimes you really are facing an armed enemy, not a neutral. One that knows how hyper-careful their enemy's rules of engagement are. That can result in your troops walking, sailing, or flying straight into ambushes, and in lost battles or even lost wars.
______

Based on my reading of the essay:

For instance, in the Liberty case, what if the Liberty actually had been an Egyptian armed naval freighter, as Edell believed it to be? At that point, nothing the Israelis actually knew precluded that possibility, so far as I can tell; even assuming they hadn't screwed up and erased the plot data showing LIberty to be in the area, that wouldn't guarantee that an Egyptian warship was not operating nearby. Certainly, nothing Edell knew precluded the possibility that he was dealing with an Egyptian warship.*

What would the Israeli MTBs have had to do in order to get positive identification of the Liberty? Chasing the ship from behind wasn't good enough, because that threw up huge plumes of spray and made it hard to identify anything- ships are a lot easier to tell apart from the side than from the stern. They would have had to move up on the sides of the ship to get a reliable identification... but recall that they only had about a 10-15 km/h speed advantage over the freighter. Getting into the right position from a safe distance would be quite difficult, and doing it at close quarters would have left the MTBs vulnerable to fire from the freighter.

If Edell's MTBs had been dealing with an Egyptian armed freighter, and had taken the necessary steps to be absolutely sure that their target was such a freighter, they might very well have gotten shot up by the freighter's guns.

*Though things he should have known would have tipped him off that something screwy was going on.
_______

My take on that specific incident may well be wrong. But I hope it illustrates a general problem: forcing commanders in the field to go far out of their way to identify targets and eliminate any possibility of error puts them and their commands at risk. As I understand it, this is one of the reasons the kind of staff work and command and control measures Stuart is big on are so important: done properly, they reduce the burden of target identification placed on the field commander by having someone safely behind the lines keeping track of the position of neutral and friendly forces.

A more historically certain example would be the misidentification of incoming Japanese planes attacking Pearl Harbor. The planes were spotted on radar well before they arrived, but were mistaken for a scheduled flight of B-17 bombers. No alert was sounded, and surprise was total. While having Lt. Tyler (the first officer to get a report from the radar operators) sound the alarm and alert the base commanders that an attack might be coming might not have changed the outcome much, the fact remains that it did not happen, which made Hawaii's radar installation useless in the face of one of the most devastating air attacks of the war.

Ideally, the news that a large force of planes was inbound would have been passed up the chain of command. There are obvious reasons why it wasn't, though, and fear of raising false alarms is one of them. That fear is very common in a peacetime military, and can be a major factor in allowing surprise attacks at the beginning of a war to succeed.
_______

To sum up: make commanders afraid of the possibility of making a mistake in identifying an enemy, and they will probably not see enemies that aren't there. But they will also tend to not see enemies that are there. So you have to balance the need to punish incompetence and its consequences against the need to keep the rest of the officers from losing confidence in their own judgement in a crisis. Guys working pyrotechnics on a stage can afford to take hours to check everything before showtime; military officers can't.
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Re: The Salvation War: Pantheocide. Part Forty Three Up

Post by Gil Hamilton »

Except that every profession on the planet, the consequences of fucking up are scaled to amount of responsibility and trust placed in the individual. This is why most engineers in the United States and ALL surveyors are required to be licensed by the state and specifically certified before they are allowed to work on public works. Likewise, the consequences become alot more dire should after all that, they fuck up anyway. This is because authority and power MUST match responsibility and consequence.

During the Lab Safety course in my chemistry undergrad, aside from making us memorize a truly horrendous amount of acronyms, one of the major sections was legality. Defining negligence as opposed to malfeasance and nonfeasance, that sort of thing. As it happens, professional chemists who work with real chemicals on real jobs need to be aware that the legal Sword of Damocles hangs over their head.

Let me give you an example. Suppose a chemist is put in charge of a stock room in a research lab. He's sorting bottles from a delivery, notices that it's coffee o'clock, and steps out of the stock room for five minutes to have a cup. He slightly props the door to the room behind him, because its a pain in the ass to find which one of the plethora of identical keys he's been issued actually unlocks the door again and he's only going to be gone for five minutes to the machine that is 10 yards and around the corner from the door. During this time, a janitor slips in there because he read on the internet that you can make an explosive with sulfuric and nitric acid plus really pure cotton (true, except its not so simple). He grabs a jar of the "Sulfuric Acid, ~100%" and the bastard drops it on his foot, shattering the jar and giving him a wicked burn along with a fuming mess that will require trained people to clean up. The stock room chemist comes back, pulls the guy to safety, calls for help, grabs some bicarbonate to limit the damage, and throws him under the shower in the first step of administering first aid to a chemical burn victim.

You know who is legally responsible for this incident and the person who is not going to have a job tomorrow? The stock room chemist. Because he was given responsibility over dangerous chemicals, even though there was absolutely no way to predict that the janitor would be that fucking stupid, even though he only took his eyes off the stock room for a minute or so, and even though when the incident happened he did everything right; he gets fired. The buck stops with him (though the janitor will probably get cashiered too in addition to the truly painful chemical burn he earned). This is because he was given a duty that required personal responsibility and because he didn't follow procedure, he is out of there.

Using your logic, there shouldn't be a significant punishment, because the worry of messing up accidentally would detract from his performance. "Oh no, we can't use this lithium as an reagent for organic synthesis! It has a significant risk of blowing up if we use it wrong and I don't want to take heat for that!" Except that they don't think that, because they are trained professionals and thus worry more about doing things correctly and by the books, so that even if shit hits the fan, they can deal with it correctly.

You say the risk of severe punishment would detract from their performance in the military if they knew that negligence and breach of protocol leads to an incident? The poor dears! They are given tremendous amount of public trust and more responsibility than the aforementioned pyrotechnics guys or the stock room chemist, vastly more. It is their JOB to do things correctly, with tight procedure, and their asses cooked if they fail in their responsibility. I understand shit happens in war and you can't always tell who you are shooting at and that things like "recon by fire" may hit something you really wish it didn't. It is job to minimalize the chance of that happening. They must be aware that should they FAIL in their duty and betray the trust and responsibility placed on them, it will END them and so they had better follow procedure all the tighter, with anyone who does fail getting the whole of the book thrown at them like any professional job of significant responsibility and safety is at risk. The notion that a military has less professional standards than stage pyrotechnics technicians is appalling.

They guy in Stuart's article that he specifically mentioned at the end messed up big time and ended up with American sailors blood on his hands and he got no significant punishment whatsoever for it. They didn't even force a public statement of apology from their lips for killing nearly 40 people out of sheer incompetance. How fucked up is that?
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Re: The Salvation War: Pantheocide. Part Forty Three Up

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Simon_Jester wrote: A more historically certain example would be the misidentification of incoming Japanese planes attacking Pearl Harbor. The planes were spotted on radar well before they arrived, but were mistaken for a scheduled flight of B-17 bombers. No alert was sounded, and surprise was total. While having Lt. Tyler (the first officer to get a report from the radar operators) sound the alarm and alert the base commanders that an attack might be coming might not have changed the outcome much, the fact remains that it did not happen, which made Hawaii's radar installation useless in the face of one of the most devastating air attacks of the war.
IIRC, those B-17's were engaged by US air defences when they did arrive - in the middle of the attack, in spite of being clearly marked and having no resemblance whatsoever to Japanese carrier aircraft. Five US carrier aircraft flying in from the USS Enterprise were also shot down by friendly fire.
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Re: The Salvation War: Pantheocide. Part Forty Three Up

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Gil Hamilton wrote:Let me give you an example. Suppose a chemist is put in charge of a stock room in a research lab. ?
Edell's offence was more like that of a technician who uses a chemical that has been mislabeled.
You say the risk of severe punishment would detract from their performance in the military if they knew that negligence and breach of protocol leads to an incident?
In fact, there is a serious threat of legal and administrative punishment if a military officer makes an error. They normally determine on a case-by-case basis how far to take such punishment rather than resort to knee-jerk zero-tolerance nonsense.
In the case of Commander Edell, his contributory negligence was actually quite minor, minor enough that one could argue that he got hosed. The punishment he received was appropriate for his alleged offence.
They didn't even force a public statement of apology from their lips for killing nearly 40 people out of sheer incompetance.
If by "their lips" you mean Israel, that is incorrect. Israel publicly apologized and paid compensation.
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Re: The Salvation War: Pantheocide. Part Forty Three Up

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R011 wrote:Edell's offence was more like that of a technician who uses a chemical that has been mislabeled.
If someone uses the wrong reagent and it kills, injuries, or potentially could have done either of those things, you bet your butt that it would be the last mistake they make in a professional lab. Edell wasn't punished at all aside from a slap on the wrist.
In fact, there is a serious threat of legal and administrative punishment if a military officer makes an error. They normally determine on a case-by-case basis how far to take such punishment rather than resort to knee-jerk zero-tolerance nonsense.
You think professional standards where public safety is at stake is nonsense? If an engineer kills someone via negligence, they aren't allowed to be engineers anymore. If a surveyor makes a mistake and labels earth as sound that isn't, and it causes structural damage to a building, they are most likely boned. If a pharma synthesis chemist messes up and forces the company to recall a product (it happens), well, I suppose since it's pharma it would involve alot of hemming and hawing that it wasn't their fault on the part of the business executives while they'd privately skewer the chemists and you can bet they'll have alot of trouble finding work if they only merely lost their job (though I suppose Big Pharma is somewhat notorious for passing the buck, but that's not a good thing!).

Yet if military personal mess up due to negligence and people die, its nonsense to fire them from their jobs?
If by "their lips" you mean Israel, that is incorrect. Israel publicly apologized and paid compensation.
They first tried denying any incident happened and downplaying it when they had no choice to acknowledge it. They STILL dramatically covered up the degree of their mistake, rather than publically owning up to it. Besides, no one actually involved in the incident issued an apology for their involvement at all.
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Re: The Salvation War: Pantheocide. Part Forty Three Up

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Gil Hamilton wrote:If someone uses the wrong reagent and it kills, injuries, or potentially could have done either of those things, you bet your butt that it would be the last mistake they make in a professional lab. ll.
So if a chemist or engineer uses a substance that has been mislabeled, he'll be fired and blacklisted? Somehow I doubt it. Indeed, there have been a number of incidents where patients have been given the wrong meds due to mislabeled or confusingly labeled packaging, and I've not heard that the technicians/nurses involved have been disbarred.
They first tried denying any incident happened and downplaying it when they had no choice to acknowledge it.
Sorry, that's completely wrong. They certainly didn't deny that it happened, considering that their people involved stopped firing and contacted the Liberty to render assistance as soon as they ceased fire. The Israeli government admitted they had fired upon the Libertytwo hours after it happened. They issued an apology the next day. Unless you've decided to believe the conspiracy theories and unsubstantiated allegations about the attack, the Israeli government has never downplayed any part of it.
Besides, no one actually involved in the incident issued an apology for their involvement at all.
In fact, it's very rare that anyone ever does in incidents like this, including in civilian life. Organizations, including governments, usually prefer that people keep their mouths shut and leaver it to diplomats and executives whose job it is to make such statements.
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Re: The Salvation War: Pantheocide. Part Forty Three Up

Post by Blayne »

Guys if your going to start naysaying each other on what happened please bring in sources, also this is getting a little off topic.
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Re: The Salvation War: Pantheocide. Part Forty Three Up

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R011 wrote:
Gil Hamilton wrote:If someone uses the wrong reagent and it kills, injuries, or potentially could have done either of those things, you bet your butt that it would be the last mistake they make in a professional lab. ll.
So if a chemist or engineer uses a substance that has been mislabeled, he'll be fired and blacklisted? Somehow I doubt it.
If an engineer behaves in a manner which is incompetent or unethical, he can be blacklisted. It has to be established that he was seriously negligent in his performance of his duties, or that he breached the engineering ethics code.

This does not mean that he must be perfect and immune to any kind of error; it means that his errors must fall within the range of what one would expect for someone of his training. Similarly, there should be a range of acceptable errors for a soldier, and I would be curious to know what it is. You make it sounds as if it is near-infinite so long as the soldier has no malicious intent.
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Re: The Salvation War: Pantheocide. Part Forty Three Up

Post by open_sketchbook »

Soldiers have to be given more leeway because their job involves people on the other side attempting to stop them. To use the chemist example that's being thrown around, it's as though certain chemicals have a fair chance of suddenly exploding and killing everyone in the lab if improperly used. It's hard to blame a person for throwing an expensive but harmless compound into the neutralizer when the alternative to paranoia could very well be having you and everyone around you being reduced to chunky salsa. The price of mistakenly firing is high, but the mistake of failing to fire might be even higher.
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Re: The Salvation War: Pantheocide. Part Forty Three Up

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Blayne wrote:Guys if your going to start naysaying each other on what happened please bring in sources, also this is getting a little off topic.
Quiet you. You are not the mod and you don't have anything useful to add to the discussion.
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Re: The Salvation War: Pantheocide. Part Forty Three Up

Post by Blayne »

Ethics aside I have a question regarding numbers I think we have it putted as around 800 million angels in Heaven and Hell having around 44 Million "soldiers" or something along those lines but I'm not sure if its ever been said how many Demons there were, the short story had it as a few billion Demons, how many Angels are there and how many demons are there? I had the impression that the Demons had a numerical "we has reserves" advantage to the Angel qualitative advantage.
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Re: The Salvation War: Pantheocide. Part Forty Three Up

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Blayne wrote:Ethics aside I have a question regarding numbers I think we have it putted as around 800 million angels in Heaven and Hell having around 44 Million "soldiers" or something along those lines but I'm not sure if its ever been said how many Demons there were, the short story had it as a few billion Demons, how many Angels are there and how many demons are there? I had the impression that the Demons had a numerical "we has reserves" advantage to the Angel qualitative advantage.
I would guess at least two orders of magnitude lower? Remember, they fought the demons effectively to a draw.
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Re: The Salvation War: Pantheocide. Part Forty Three Up

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Darth Wong wrote:If an engineer behaves in a manner which is incompetent or unethical, he can be blacklisted. It has to be established that he was seriously negligent in his performance of his duties, or that he breached the engineering ethics code.

This does not mean that he must be perfect and immune to any kind of error; it means that his errors must fall within the range of what one would expect for someone of his training. Similarly, there should be a range of acceptable errors for a soldier, and I would be curious to know what it is. You make it sounds as if it is near-infinite so long as the soldier has no malicious intent.
That may be fairly accurate, though I hope someone with more expertise weighs in on the issue.

The problem is that the range of errors a soldier cannot realistically avoid making is very wide, even if they follow procedure carefully. They have to worry about intelligent beings specifically looking over at their actions and find a way to make accidents happen to them; engineers and chemists usually do not. When you're dealing with inanimate objects, it may not be easy to avoid accidents, but at least the rules don't change. You can predict what your design or your reagents will do using the laws of physics and chemistry, and if you did your math right, your predictions will be accurate. Therefore, you can come up with guidelines for how to handle the materials or design a building that preclude any possibility of something going wrong.

You can't do that in war, for obvious reasons. So you are forced to use a less desirable, less reliable solution: train intelligent beings to gauge the situation and react in ways that the enemy will have a hard time countering. But that requires that they act fast, because almost anything is easy to counter if it's done slowly enough... which means that military officers are forced to cut corners with their safety record, at least from the point of view of a civilian who works with dangerous materials.

There's still a lot of important procedural stuff that greatly reduces the chance of an accident, but there's no way to eliminate it entirely without making the armed forces too vulnerable to people who exploit their predictable rulebook. So yes, soldiers will get forgiven (at least partly forgiven) for things that would be intolerable elsewhere, because if they tried to function under the same level of by-the-book precision as civilians in a chemistry lab, they wouldn't be able to function at all.

And yet there's still a wide gap between professional and unprofessional, which is what Stuart talks about when he criticizes the Israeli military for not having its act together. Unprofessional militaries will make lazy mistakes, not just calculated risks that raise the odds of an accident in exchange for lowered odds of losses to enemy action.

=========
R011 wrote:IIRC, those B-17's were engaged by US air defences when they did arrive - in the middle of the attack, in spite of being clearly marked and having no resemblance whatsoever to Japanese carrier aircraft. Five US carrier aircraft flying in from the USS Enterprise were also shot down by friendly fire.
I believe you're correct, which illustrates the problem even better. Do we go for trigger-happy, fast-reacting people (who sound the alarm whenever they see anything suspicious and occasionally shoot at friendly B-17s)? Or would we prefer careful, slow-reacting people (who will think two or three times before sounding the alarm, but are far less likely to shoot down their own planes)?

At Pearl Harbor, the balance was shifted far over in favor of slow and careful, and we paid for it, because the first wave of Japanese attackers got in free shots against the anchored ships, and subsequent waves faced far less aggressive and organized defenses than they would have if the island's garrison had been more used to reacting in a hurry.

========
Gil Hamilton wrote:Except that every profession on the planet, the consequences of fucking up are scaled to amount of responsibility and trust placed in the individual. This is why most engineers in the United States and ALL surveyors are required to be licensed by the state and specifically certified before they are allowed to work on public works. Likewise, the consequences become alot more dire should after all that, they fuck up anyway. This is because authority and power MUST match responsibility and consequence.
Fine. How do you address the effect on morale and the confidence of the officers, then? Does it get shrugged off, or do you have some way around the problem in mind?

This is a large gap between the profession of arms and the profession of chemistry. Chemists on the job can usually afford to stop and do things over if they reach a point where they have a choice between safety and accomplishing the mission, without anyone dying. Soldiers often can't: sometimes they can choose to be accident-free and risk having their people die when the enemy exploits their slow and predictable tactics, or they can choose to act hastily and risk having their people die in accidents.

This is the difference between working with materials or physical systems which may be complicated and dangerous but aren't actively trying to screw you over, because they're inanimate, and actual enemies, who are trying to screw you over as much as possible, and will deliberately seek ways to take advantage of your rulebook.
_______
Using your logic, there shouldn't be a significant punishment, because the worry of messing up accidentally would detract from his performance. "Oh no, we can't use this lithium as an reagent for organic synthesis! It has a significant risk of blowing up if we use it wrong and I don't want to take heat for that!" Except that they don't think that, because they are trained professionals and thus worry more about doing things correctly and by the books, so that even if shit hits the fan, they can deal with it correctly.
Yes. that's fine, as long as they can afford to take time and do things by the book. Which they can: as a rule, no one dies if they take the extra time to handle the lithium carefully. In war, sometimes people DO die when you take extra time. "The book" in warfare has to be written as a compromise between optimizing safety and reliability on the one hand, and optimizing the ability to take the initiative on the other. That's one of the reasons it's so difficult to set up an army that won't get lots of its own people killed in friendly fire accidents and logistics tangles.
________
You say the risk of severe punishment would detract from their performance in the military if they knew that negligence and breach of protocol leads to an incident? The poor dears! They are given tremendous amount of public trust and more responsibility than the aforementioned pyrotechnics guys or the stock room chemist, vastly more. It is their JOB to do things correctly, with tight procedure, and their asses cooked if they fail in their responsibility. I understand shit happens in war and you can't always tell who you are shooting at and that things like "recon by fire" may hit something you really wish it didn't. It is job to minimalize the chance of that happening. They must be aware that should they FAIL in their duty and betray the trust and responsibility placed on them, it will END them and so they had better follow procedure all the tighter, with anyone who does fail getting the whole of the book thrown at them like any professional job of significant responsibility and safety is at risk. The notion that a military has less professional standards than stage pyrotechnics technicians is appalling.
You're missing something.

If the pyrotechnics guys can't deliver something because the safety regulations stopped them from doing some kind of pyrotechnics, all that happens is that Metallica has to settle for a slightly less awesome fireworks display. If the stock room chemist has to sort through sixteen keys every time they go back into the room, all that happens is that it takes longer to get stuff out of the stock room. Life goes on.

If military officers have to spend half an hour in the middle of a naval battle to make extra super-duper sure that their targets are what they think they are before firing a shot... life may not go on. People can die on your own side because of your careful adherence to time consuming regulations, just as surely as they can die of your ignorance and carelessness concerning regulations.
________
They guy in Stuart's article that he specifically mentioned at the end messed up big time and ended up with American sailors blood on his hands and he got no significant punishment whatsoever for it. They didn't even force a public statement of apology from their lips for killing nearly 40 people out of sheer incompetance. How fucked up is that?
Exceedingly so. But the Israeli government not making a public apology is a separate issue from whatever punishment Edell should get.
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Re: The Salvation War: Pantheocide. Part Forty Three Up

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Darth Wong wrote: You make it sounds as if it is near-infinite so long as the soldier has no malicious intent.
I said no such thing. I said "In fact, there is a serious threat of legal and administrative punishment if a military officer makes an error. They normally determine on a case-by-case basis how far to take such punishment rather than resort to knee-jerk zero-tolerance nonsense."

Perhaps I was mistaken that you and most commenting here have read Stuart's essay on the Liberty attack. If you had, you'd realize that Edell was far from being primarlily responsible for the incident and, indeed, did a very difficult job little worse than could be expected under the circumstances.
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Thank you although you didn't have to :)
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Re: The Salvation War: Pantheocide. Part Forty Three Up

Post by Emerson33260 »

Gil Hamilton wrote: And that's shit. That's no way to run a professional military. You see, if those pyrotechnics guys fuck up and burn some audience members due to poorly set up displays, they get fired and possibly worse.

How do you justify people whose job it is to be armed to the teeth and operate things like a guided missile cruiser or an FAC having so little professional standards? They should have the mother of all liability, not "Whoops, you accidentally killed several dozen people out of sheer negligence and helped shoot up a ship belonging to just about your only ally. As punishment, we are demoting you, you bad boy. Let that be a lesson to you!"
For an example of a commander doing it your way, refer to the fate of the Norweigian coast defense ship Eidsvold on 9 April 1940. Captain Odd Isaachsen Willoch was determined not to start a war accidentally, in spite of the fact that he was confronting German warships in the mouth of Narvik Fjord many kilometers inside the territorial limit. After a negotiator sent over in a boat failed to convince him that the occupation of Narvik by Germans troops was in Norway's best interests, he finally decided that he was going to have to fight. Unfortunately, the enemy destroyers had already launched torpedoes, and the Eidsvold went down with a couple of hundred dead and only six survivors, never having fired a shot. Willoch got some nice postmortem medals.
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Re: The Salvation War: Pantheocide. Part Forty Three Up

Post by drakensis »

However regrettable it is, the fact is that friendly fire has been a constant in warfare for a long time. The Israeli Navy's culpability here is that they had tools to avoid the situation and didn't employ them before they were pointing guns at each other. Similarly, it seems likely that the NSA did not do their utmost to avoid the situation. But once all that was underway, the odds were that someone was going to get hurt.

They're a long way from being the first. Here are some other examples: http://www.ww2pacific.com/friendly.html
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Re: The Salvation War: Pantheocide. Part Forty Three Up

Post by Jamesfirecat »

We seem to have hit another dry spell, I hope Stuart didn't pick up this story again after leaving it alone for a month or two only to suddenly decide to let it lay fallow again after adding two chapters...

After checking his profile I see that the last time he was on was the 27th, four days ago, well I'll cross my fingers that he's just on a family vacation or something it would suck great big brass monkey balls if this story suffered from an author existence failure...


EDIT: I'd like to say "sorry" for the pointless nature of this post and express to everyone on the board that next time I'll make sure I've got something important to say before I post rather than just nattering away like its a slow day on a 24 hour news show....
Last edited by Jamesfirecat on 2009-12-31 06:43pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Salvation War: Pantheocide. Part Forty Three Up

Post by Shroom Man 777 »

Jesus Christ, shut up. Stuart's a big man and he's got lots of things to do. He's probably at the Pentagon telling people the best way to bomb Iran or something. Or he's tired of all the snow in the goddamn winter. Or he's busy fixing his car. Or he's out with his family eating lots of Christmas food. Or he's visiting his Thai lady friends, or something. It's kurisumasu, people get busy. Wait, it's New Years. Maybe Stuart's being contracted for global thermonuclear fireworks!
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Re: The Salvation War: Pantheocide. Part Forty Three Up

Post by Mayabird »

I agree with Shroomy. The man will write when he damn well feels like writing and/or has the time to. Any further "hey when's the next chapter" posts will be dumped without mercy.
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Re: The Salvation War: Pantheocide. Part Forty Three Up

Post by Stuart »

Mayabird wrote:I agree with Shroomy. The man will write when he damn well feels like writing and/or has the time to. Any further "hey when's the next chapter" posts will be dumped without mercy.
Thank's Maya. I've been on vacation. Next part coming up soon.
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Re: The Salvation War: Pantheocide. Part Forty Three Up

Post by Blayne »

At least your not Rich Burlew, the man gets many many many requests "when's the next comic coming out?".
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Re: The Salvation War: Pantheocide. Part Forty Three Up

Post by Simon_Jester »

Burlew's problem is that by tradition, he releases two or three comics a week. So when he goes four days without a release, people start harassing him.

Anyone on this thread ought to know better; Stuart posts at long irregular intervals and always has, so far as I can tell.
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Re: The Salvation War: Pantheocide. Part Forty Three Up

Post by Spekio »

I love OOTS, but sometimes Burlew seems like an asshole. Specially with fan translations. Thats just my opinion, I don't know him personally and it has been a long time since I last posted on Giantitp.

BUT

Stuart, you must certainly understand that good writing is like crack. We need our fix. Keep on being awesome.
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