Priest: Thou shalt not steal (unless it's from big business)

[J]

CNN link

Priest: Thou shalt not steal (unless it's from big business)
December 22, 2009 2:41 p.m. EST

London, England (CNN) -- A UK priest has defended his comments that it is acceptable to steal from large companies.

Tim Jones, parish priest of St Lawrence and St Hilda, told his congregation in York, northern England: "My advice, as a Christian priest, is to shoplift."

Jones, who according to the church Web site previously worked in Corinth, Mississippi, made his comments about what he regarded as acceptable behavior by those in need when they were desperate.

In a transcript of his sermon published in the local newspaper, "The Press," Jones said: "I do not offer such advice because I think that stealing is a good thing, or because I think it is harmless, for it is neither.

"I would ask that they do not steal from small family businesses, but from large national businesses, knowing that the costs are ultimately passed on to the rest of us in the form of higher prices."

Jones told CNN affiliate ITN Monday that his advice was directed at those with nothing and who had exhausted all other legal avenues to survive, such as state benefits.

While it was never right to shoplift, Jones said, it was the most acceptable alternative for those in desperate need compared with prostitution, burglary or other criminal offenses.

The Web site for St Hilda's states that Jones has served as a prison chaplain and that his interests include international justice and fair trade issues.

"I would say to those people that are outraged: Compare how much you are spending on yourself this Christmas compared to how much you have given to people in desperate situations," Jones told ITN.

In his sermon Sunday Jones called on anyone planning to steal not to take more than they need for longer than they need, saying that he offered his advice with a heavy heart. He added that his advocacy of shoplifting was a "grim indictment" of society and a plea for help for the most vulnerable.

But Jones' church bosses failed to back his call. In a statement on the Web site for the Diocese of York Tuesday, Richard Seed, Archdeacon of York said: "The Church of England does not advise anyone to shoplift, or break the law in any way.

"Fr Tim Jones is raising important issues about the difficulties people face when benefits are not forthcoming, but shoplifting is not the way to overcome these difficulties.

"There are many organizations and charities working with people in need, and the Citizens' Advice Bureau is a good first place to call."

Thoughts. What is the social contract worth when those in high places can violate it and impoverish the people with impunity? What happens when the people see that justice is no longer being served? When will the people cry "enough! No more!" and take matters into their own hands?

[Thanas]

The priest is from the UK, which AFAIK has a functional welfare system. Unlike in the USA, the poor over there need not to shoplift to survive.

[Shroom Man 777]

God, you Anglican and non-Catholic religious organizations in the Commonwealth/British countries are awesome. First making lewd sexual connotations regarding Joseph's (im)potency, and now advocating anti-social behavior. This is totally awesome, compared to the lame Catholic apologism that abounds everywhere.

I don't think advocating crime is really in-keeping with Christianity or general morality. You're supposed to advocate GIVING over receiving, and certainly NOT taking from other people without their consent mang!

[Darth Wong]

I don't think advocating crime is really in-keeping with Christianity or general morality. You're supposed to advocate GIVING over receiving, and certainly NOT taking from other people without their consent mang!

True, advocating crime is not really in keeping with any kind of morality. However, advocating leniency for poor people who steal necessities such as food or basic clothing might be in keeping with numerous moral systems, including Christianity. If they're stealing iPods, however, then fuck 'em. Lack of an iPod is not a form of destitution that I recognize.

[Darth Wong]

Thoughts. What is the social contract worth when those in high places can violate it and impoverish the people with impunity? What happens when the people see that justice is no longer being served? When will the people cry "enough! No more!" and take matters into their own hands?

In America, they do not recognize a social contract. They recognize only their precious Constitution (or at least the second amendment to it).

[Tribun]

Sorry for my ignorance, but what exactly is the second amendment and is it so important to them?

[Frank Hipper]

Sorry for my ignorance, but what exactly is the second amendment and is it so important to them?

Guns....

[Darth Wong]

Sorry for my ignorance, but what exactly is the second amendment and is it so important to them?

As Frank says, it's the one about guns. I wish I was kidding when I say that many Americans think the right to own guns is more important than the right to freedom of expression.

[General Zod]

Sorry for my ignorance, but what exactly is the second amendment and is it so important to them?

As Frank says, it's the one about guns. I wish I was kidding when I say that many Americans think the right to own guns is more important than the right to freedom of expression.

Or even the right to have healthcare. Even China is better at providing for its poor than the US is in that regard.

[Winston Blake]

While it was never right to shoplift, Jones said, it was the most acceptable alternative for those in desperate need compared with prostitution, burglary or other criminal offenses.

So it's not 'I advocate shoplifting', it's 'I advocate shoplifting (1) as an alternative to worse crimes, (2) if and only if desperate, and (3) only from big businesses to minimise the harm'. Doesn't seem so bad.

[Qwerty 42]

Sorry for my ignorance, but what exactly is the second amendment and is it so important to them?

Specifically,

"A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

[PhilosopherOfSorts]

Sorry for my ignorance, but what exactly is the second amendment and is it so important to them?

As Frank says, it's the one about guns. I wish I was kidding when I say that many Americans think the right to own guns is more important than the right to freedom of expression.

The reasoning behind this is that without the guns, the government could come in and take away the freedom of expression. The flaw in this reasoning is, of course, that the government has the most and the biggest guns so they could take away rights they wanted to, if they were so inclined.

[Vendetta]

Sorry for my ignorance, but what exactly is the second amendment and is it so important to them?

As Frank says, it's the one about guns. I wish I was kidding when I say that many Americans think the right to own guns is more important than the right to freedom of expression.

The reasoning behind this is that without the guns, the government could come in and take away the freedom of expression. The flaw in this reasoning is, of course, that the government has the most and the biggest guns so they could take away rights they wanted to, if they were so inclined.

Given the Patriot act and the response thereto, the government could take away a great many rights to no significant protest, as long as it left people their toys.

[Gil Hamilton]

The reasoning behind this is that without the guns, the government could come in and take away the freedom of expression. The flaw in this reasoning is, of course, that the government has the most and the biggest guns so they could take away rights they wanted to, if they were so inclined.

Based on the behavior of the FCC, the American people, and the government, if the government strongly curtailed the right to free speech, the response to it would be quiet grumbling to approval of the restrictions, but acceptance all about. Despite the claims that guns are arsenals of freedom, people tend to let themselves be oppressed as long as you don't oppress them all at once. Sort of like how if you throw a frog into boiling water, it hops out, but if you slowly heat a frog in water until it boils, the frog may well let you do it.

[Andrew J.]

The reasoning behind this is that without the guns, the government could come in and take away the freedom of expression. The flaw in this reasoning is, of course, that the government has the most and the biggest guns so they could take away rights they wanted to, if they were so inclined.

Based on the behavior of the FCC, the American people, and the government, if the government strongly curtailed the right to free speech, the response to it would be quiet grumbling to approval of the restrictions, but acceptance all about. Despite the claims that guns are arsenals of freedom, people tend to let themselves be oppressed as long as you don't oppress them all at once. Sort of like how if you throw a frog into boiling water, it hops out, but if you slowly heat a frog in water until it boils, the frog may well let you do it.

That's just an urban legend, by the way.

[Crossroads Inc.]

The reasoning behind this is that without the guns, the government could come in and take away the freedom of expression. The flaw in this reasoning is, of course, that the government has the most and the biggest guns so they could take away rights they wanted to, if they were so inclined.

Given the Patriot act and the response thereto, the government could take away a great many rights to no significant protest, as long as it left people their toys.

That is honestly because it was largely created by the GOP> Seriously these are people who believe "If the GOP does it MUST be good" I am sure most in the far right have Never read the Patriot act and dismiss what Liberals say about it. Once at a Rally where I was 'debating' some conservatives, I had two people right out and tell me that "The Patriot act does not curtail a Single civil liberty" I then proceeded to sow them a Print out of exactly what civili liberties it curtails. This got the response of "You only have to worry about THAT if you did something wrong!" and we all know where THIS line of thinking leads.

Really, the conservatives in Washington could slowly take over AMerica bit by bit so long as they let people have Guns, Booze and NASCAR. The Bush Years where in a way an example of this. As after 9/11 we lived in the closest thing we had to a dictatorship in quite some time. That said there are some things even the GOP couldn't do. If tomorrow Palin came out and said she suddenly supported Gay Marriage, should would be eaten alive.

[Raptor]

I heard this story just before Christmas, and after working in a shop, and being there while there were shoplifters, he has no clue. Did he even talk to police, social workers, people who have shoplifted, shop keepers? While I worked in corner shop this is what was nicked:
Coffee
Bacon
Gravy
Tins of Salmon
Chicken and Mushroom Pie
Beer
Vodka
Before you think this was for a small meal for a poor family it wasn't. They target certain items to sell, for drugs etc, but there also a trade in stuff like this selling it cheap on markets, car boot sales etc. I caught shop lifters stealing six pies, once about 20 packs of bacon, crates of beer. My aunt works in a bookstore a major chain, shoplifters there have no guilt. The shop policy is to let them go unless security is there in case they are attacked. She and the others who work there get scared, as did I when I confronted them. Is this added is the 'cost' added by big companies onto stock? She told me once one them caught one behind the till stealing DVDs. When she told him to stop he came up to face and shouted at her to leave him alone. I was always worried, like 'what if they pulled a knife' or something. When I heard him trying to justify it I just heard Fat Tony explaining cigarette theft to Bart.

[Gil Hamilton]

That's just an urban legend, by the way.

In the Land of Analogy, a frog will actually do that. Clearly you aren't familiar with the breeds there.

[Andrew J.]

That's just an urban legend, by the way.

In the Land of Analogy, a frog will actually do that. Clearly you aren't familiar with the breeds there.

I don't care for the wildlife of the Land of Analogy. The lemmings there actually commit suicide en masse, which I find to be simply too depressing to bear.

[The Guid]

I heard this story just before Christmas, and after working in a shop, and being there while there were shoplifters, he has no clue. Did he even talk to police, social workers, people who have shoplifted, shop keepers? While I worked in corner shop this is what was nicked:
Coffee
Bacon
Gravy
Tins of Salmon
Chicken and Mushroom Pie
Beer
Vodka
Before you think this was for a small meal for a poor family it wasn't. They target certain items to sell, for drugs etc, but there also a trade in stuff like this selling it cheap on markets, car boot sales etc. I caught shop lifters stealing six pies, once about 20 packs of bacon, crates of beer. My aunt works in a bookstore a major chain, shoplifters there have no guilt. The shop policy is to let them go unless security is there in case they are attacked. She and the others who work there get scared, as did I when I confronted them. Is this added is the 'cost' added by big companies onto stock? She told me once one them caught one behind the till stealing DVDs. When she told him to stop he came up to face and shouted at her to leave him alone. I was always worried, like 'what if they pulled a knife' or something. When I heard him trying to justify it I just heard Fat Tony explaining cigarette theft to Bart.

But the thing is his advice wasn't "shoplifting is OK" its "if there are no alternatives" so I am sure he would still condemn those you describe.