Alternate applications of Avatar technology

[Darth Wong]

Apparently, in the Avatar universe, it is possible to create creatures with blended human and creature DNA, and then occupy their bodies remotely with your own consciousness. Leaving aside the obvious questions about signaling inherent in this technology, what other applications can you think of for this technology? A few leap to mind:

• Cloning. It seems to me that the ability to create avatars in a reasonable amount of time necessarily implies human rapid-cloning technology. Ergo, there must be viable human rapid-cloning and aging technology in the Avatar-verse. If they can make an adult half-human half-Navi avatar for you, they should be able to make a fully human avatar for you, and with far less difficulty, since there is no need to combine alien genomes.
• Thrill-riding. While only the wealthy could afford this, it seems to me that people would inevitably start using their remote-controlled avatars in order to experience things that could not normally be experienced, or that they would be too afraid to experience. You could, for example, find out what it's like to be the opposite gender, by having an opposite-gender clone for an avatar. Or you could go scuba diving with great white sharks, secure in the knowledge that you'll survive even if they get hungry.
• Military applications: while an avatar is apparently very expensive to operate, there may be situations where it's useful for a soldier or pilot to be able to remote-control a relatively expendable body. EOD comes to mind.

Obviously, much of this depends on the cost of the technology. I'm assuming that a huge part of the cost is the creation of the melded human/alien genome, so a straight-clone avatar would be much cheaper. We know that the booths are interchangeable, so you could have many clients using a single booth (albeit not simultaneously).

[Broomstick]

I'd be really surprised if the Avatarverse didn't use cloning. There are certainly references to advanced medical technology. Jake Sully's voice over says that his damaged spine can be repaired, it's just really expensive. Quaritch mentions that his extensive scarring could be fixed, but he'd have to go back to Earth for it. The obstacles to doing some of these things seem financial or locational, not technological. So... need a new liver? Heart? A square meter of skin regrown? All it takes is money and some time. Unfortunately, it seems if you don't have money you're out of luck. Clearly, the future went towards a US style of healthcare rather than a European model, more's the pity.

[phred]

One that's stated pretty much straight out in the movie is replacement parts. This is an assumption on my part, but the main character was promised his legs back for the work he was doing. He lost the use of them in a war or something, and the assumption I'm making is they can grow him a new spinal column or whatever was damaged in the first place.

[Broomstick]

Ah, look - there's an Avatar Wiki:

Amnio-Tank:

The controlled environment of the amnio tank was originally developed to replace functions of mammalian womb. It is used for growing cloned animals, humans (rarely) and (most commonly) replacement limbs and organs. It is now used with great success to grow avatar bodies that are genetically linked to their controllers. This in turn allows for effective an effective psilink between human controller and the cloned avatar.

I am disappointed in the use of "psilink" for avatar control, even if that might "explain" why the Flux Vortex (or whatever) didn't interfere with avatar control even if it fucked up electronic instruments.

[open_sketchbook]

I'd be really surprised if the Avatarverse didn't use cloning. There are certainly references to advanced medical technology. Jake Sully's voice over says that his damaged spine can be repaired, it's just really expensive. Quaritch mentions that his extensive scarring could be fixed, but he'd have to go back to Earth for it. The obstacles to doing some of these things seem financial or locational, not technological. So... need a new liver? Heart? A square meter of skin regrown? All it takes is money and some time. Unfortunately, it seems if you don't have money you're out of luck. Clearly, the future went towards a US style of healthcare rather than a European model, more's the pity.

Not nessarily the case if making avatars is really, really expensive, to the point where universal healthcare cannot hope to do it for everyone who needs it, in which case a second tier of private clinics might exist.

[Broomstick]

Well, you know, these days in the US veterans have access to really expensive medical tech that even a lot of people with insurance don't have, yet Jake Sully can't get his legs fixed on VA benefits. I'm thinking about military leg amputees getting "C-leg" prostheses when even a lot of people with private insurance don't automatically get them.

Size and complexity of the procedure probably makes a difference, too - regrowing a finger might be within reach for most people, or covered by most insurance, but perhaps Jake needed more than just nerve repair. Regenerating/fixing damaged bone, muscle, and tendon as well as nerve tissue might get quite complicated.

[Sam Or I]

Immortality.

[adam_grif]

Well, you know, these days in the US veterans have access to really expensive medical tech that even a lot of people with insurance don't have, yet Jake Sully can't get his legs fixed on VA benefits.

In the grim future of 2154, there is only free market capitalism.

[Serafina]

Well, most of the mil-tech was not that impressive - they obviously have better avionics than we have today (huge big gunship). Neither were the weapons.
It is more advanced than our technology, but not that much.

Spaceflight is, apparently, still pretty expensive, otherwise, we would see a bigger colony (they had time, one character heard of pandora as a child).

Generally, there is nothing special/extraordinary in the other techs, only the avatar-tech is extraordinary.


Well, what would/could the Avatar-technology itself be used for.
First, there seems to be no reason why there could not be human avatars. However, you apparently need to base the thing of your DNA. Also, it is limited to to one person (or your twin).
Alternate-sex avatars should be possible - if you can mix two species, swapping one cromosome is not that big of an issue.

So, we have:
-a great solution for transgendered people, considering that a human avatars is propably cheaper than a non-human one.
-a great solution for really crippled people, tough they can apparently fix most damage anyway
-a very expensive recreation for the wealthy

IF they are able to do the mind-transfer thingy (no reason why that should be impossible, it was done in the movie), then it is a way to gain near-immortality (obviously, getting killed is still, well, lethal).
It would also remove a lot of problems with ones body, since it seems obvious that you can make a specially prepared avatar look nearly any way you want.

[GrayAnderson]

The technology advanced in some areas but not others. Basically, we've got advances in space travel, energy (maglev trains leap to mind), and biotech while some things (basic aerospace and certain areas of weaponry) lag behind. In some sense, the theme I'm getting is that areas where large capital investments are likely to pay off are getting invested in...which follows with the theme of the universe. I would actually not be surprised if the Avatar tech was developed with an eye towards the commercial applications you mentioned...even if a need for it on Pandora was the driving force, other applications would help to defray the initial investment cost.

Of course, "feasible" and "feasible at a reasonable price" are still clearly different, and most Pandora-related stuff falls under the former but not latter category. Likewise, it might be theoretically possible for someone to get a custom-grown organ IRL, but the amount of money you'd need would run into the billions and you still might not get anywhere.

One thing on the mind-transfer: That's a function of Eywa, who for the moment I'm going to suggest operates as a very powerful biological computer network. Eywa's physical capabilities have hard-and-fast limits (usually involving working through an interface terminal, such as those trees); there's no evidence I can find for Eywa being able to do much of anything outside of that network that can't be explained through that network plus some impressive pheremone capabilities (the latter bit being necessary for the wildlife call at the end of the movie). Thus, replication seems to be highly unlikely, and even if theoretically possible you'd need to find a way to get it out of the Pandoran biological mold unless you fancy being transferred into a ten-foot body on Earth.

[Serafina]

Regardibg Eywa:
I it stated that they have 10^12 trees on Pandora, and that each tree has 10.000 connections. Thats a BIG network, and sentience is heavily implied.
But we have to consider that is has significant lag (biochemical connection over a whole planet), so it's direct calculation capacity should suffer.

While it is certainly possible that technology can not YET do the complete mind-transfer, i do not see why it should be impossible on the long run.

[Axiomatic]

The scientists mention that "it must be electrical" because it's so fast, so the lag might not be as significant as all that.

Also, Avatars aren't just expensive, they're really, really expensive. They're so expensive that the Company was so desperate not to lose the investment on just one that they were willing to use a completely untrained and inexperienced marine as a replacement for a man who'd studied the language and logged hundreds of hours in practice etc.

So it's not really a great solution for transgendered people unless those transgendered people also happen to be really, really, really rich. They'd probably be better off staying in their own brain and replacing strategic portions with replacement parts of the opposite gender. And THAT, while cheaper by orders of magnitude, will still be hideously expensive.

[Serafina]

The scientists mention that "it must be electrical" because it's so fast, so the lag might not be as significant as all that.

Also, Avatars aren't just expensive, they're really, really expensive. They're so expensive that the Company was so desperate not to lose the investment on just one that they were willing to use a completely untrained and inexperienced marine as a replacement for a man who'd studied the language and logged hundreds of hours in practice etc.

So it's not really a great solution for transgendered people unless those transgendered people also happen to be really, really, really rich. They'd probably be better off staying in their own brain and replacing strategic portions with replacement parts of the opposite gender. And THAT, while cheaper by orders of magnitude, will still be hideously expensive.

Well, any "replace a human body because it is not right"-applications are moot if their medical technology is advanced enough, anyway (we can't tell, all we know is that they can fix broken spines).

But ultimately, it might be a way to immortality - just replacing the worn-down body with a new one. At least if they manage the permanent transfer, and if there is no "pattern degrading" of the brain.

Human avatars should be way cheaper than navi ones - you do not have to mix DNA. Furthermore, mass-production tends to make stuff way cheaper.
It is not even necessarily true that the navi-avatars were that expensive - they are interested in profits, so they could have just thought "what the heck, we can not loose anything by sending him." They are certainly not cheap, but it does not have to be astronomical.

[Axiomatic]

It is not even necessarily true that the navi-avatars were that expensive - they are interested in profits, so they could have just thought "what the heck, we can not loose anything by sending him." They are certainly not cheap, but it does not have to be astronomical.

I think most companies realize that putting someone completely unqualified in charge of an incredibly important and sensitive position for which candidates had to train for years to qualify CAN, in fact, lead to you losing a lot.

[Shroom Man 777]

Yeah, and that's kinda what happened in the movie.

As for the Avatar tech itself, it's also been touched on in other recent movies like Surrogates and Gamer. In the former, practically everyone stayed at home and lived their lives in remote-controlled robot bodies that all looked pretty and sexy and could do all sorts of feats like running around jumping from high places, whatever. In the latter, people could play videogames by remote controlling actual-factual human beings who either rented themselves out as video game characters for shitgames like Second Life where they become remote-controlled prostitutes for remote-controlled johns, or where prisoners became "avatars" for goddamn lethal First Person Shooter games.

The Avatar technology if it becomes trivial and ubiquitous could see the same ridiculous applications as those.

[Ford Prefect]

I am disappointed in the use of "psilink" for avatar control, even if that might "explain" why the Flux Vortex (or whatever) didn't interfere with avatar control even if it fucked up electronic instruments.

The Pandorapedia page uses 'psionic' a couple of times, but I think we can forgive the film's universe for having pseudomagical telepathy machines to bypass issues about signal strength on a planet with such a huge magnetic field

Well, most of the mil-tech was not that impressive - they obviously have better avionics than we have today (huge big gunship). Neither were the weapons.
It is more advanced than our technology, but not that much.

Most of the weapons on Pandora are deliberately a few generations behind, simply for reliability and ruggedness. It's in the guidebook about how generally difficult it is to get advanced systems working on Pandora, though I don't think it goes into any detail on what 'modern' systems are like.

[Shroom Man 777]

Those weapons are easily repaired and those source material shenennigans state, according to the guys here, that a lot of the machines in Pandora are fabricated on-site to ease supply line demands. Which makes sense, since it'd be a bitch to cart diamond lenses and solid-state laser mechanisms a whole buncha years and lightyears across space so you can get your dumb pew-pew spacegun repaired.

[adam_grif]

Most of the weapons on Pandora are deliberately a few generations behind, simply for reliability and ruggedness. It's in the guidebook about how generally difficult it is to get advanced systems working on Pandora, though I don't think it goes into any detail on what 'modern' systems are like.

Heh. I can't help but notice stuff like this all the time. We have that, the melding plague in Revelation Space, the Geth = AI Ban in Mass Effect, off the top of my head. I'm sure there's more.

[Companion Cube]

Most of the weapons on Pandora are deliberately a few generations behind, simply for reliability and ruggedness. It's in the guidebook about how generally difficult it is to get advanced systems working on Pandora, though I don't think it goes into any detail on what 'modern' systems are like.

The Pandorapedia page for the Scorpion gunship has a brief mention of robotic warcraft that incorporate exotic self-healing materials and quantum computers. I wonder if, in-universe, this sort of thing might represent a future application of the Avatar technology; instead of piloting a human-alien hybrid, you jump into the cyborg core of a fighter jet.

[Solauren]

Question: Does the Avatar universe have FTL communications technology? (I haven't seen the movie yet).

If so, why not have remote controlled probes of some kind? Explore spacae from the comfort of your own home!

[YT300000]

Question: Does the Avatar universe have FTL communications technology? (I haven't seen the movie yet).

If so, why not have remote controlled probes of some kind? Explore spacae from the comfort of your own home!

No, it was a five year trip to reach Pandora, and they were kept in stasis for the duration. There wasn't any mention of maximum ranges for the psilink, but I imagine this would become an issue over light-year distances.

[Ford Prefect]

Question: Does the Avatar universe have FTL communications technology? (I haven't seen the movie yet).

It's mentioned in the guide book that you can use Unobtanium to knock together an FTL communications system based on quantum entanglement, but it's extremely expensive and low bandwidth. The suggestion is that you can send quarterly text reports without pretty backgrounds, but anything more than that is just impossible.

[Guardsman Bass]

Immortality.

That's a good point - they can apparently link consciousness between two bodies, and the Na'vi managed to effectively cut off one end, leaving Jake in his na'vi body at the end. It's probably not too much of a stretch to imagine doing that with human clones and the technology they have - when someone gets too sick, or injured, or is on death's door, grow them a new clone, sync them up, and do a mind-transfer into a fresh new body.

Considering that human cloning is pretty rare, though, perhaps there are some cultural taboos against it back on Earth in the avatarverse.

[Broomstick]

There's also the hitch that, apparently, you need Eywe in the loop for an effective mind transfer. Is she going to want to do that on command?

[Ford Prefect]

That's only the case when making use of the Pandoran tree-internet. Simple extrapolation on stuff which appears in the film shows that it should be possible to replicate the process technologically (probably sooner, rather than later). There's nothing actually mystical about Eywa, after all.