SW vs 40K

[PainRack]

I dont recall them building many Subjugators to begin with. They seemed more like a "super weapon" concept if anything, rather than a response to NR super-ships. The Separatists have a long tradition of building highly effective but limited number "specialist" designs of all sorts (The jedi killer type cyborg/droids, droidekas, variations on the BD/SBD concept, etc.) I wouldn't be surprised if the latter proved true for starships also, but I question whether such designs came to dominate their military forces in any degree.

You misunderstood my point. Using the example of the Yamato, the Japanese designed super-battleships to counteract against American numerical superiority. As such, the existence of the Malovence suggests that the Republic navy was on par, if not superior numerically to the Seperatists.

Another part of the discussion is that the CIS built their lucrehulk battleships, which formed the majority of their early navy on merchant vessels. Refitted warships shouldn't be as effective as truly designated warships.

[Imperial Overlord]

Errr.... The chain of discussion so far.
Shrooms argues that no name pyskers routinely manifest fire, lightning and etc. Most of black ship harvest are relatively high level pyskers.
I argue that the majority of them aren't, and no name pyskers don't routinely manifest fire, lightning.
You come in and say that well, Imperial pyskers talents differ and has no bearing on their warp power.

How on earth is this a rebuttal?

It's educating you on psyker powers, an area where you consistently display ignorance and make incorrect assumptions. Raw power and battlefield effectiveness is not directly related to the ability to chuck fireballs, something you've repeatedly failed to grasp. Many can throw fireballs, but not being able to chuck a fireball doesn't make a psyker weak or ineffective.

What balck and white fallacy? Are we even discusing psyker power levels vis a vis Jedi or the Jedi roles? If its the first, my argument was high level powers on the part of the Imperium should had based on the Chief Librarians abilities. Not the use of daemonhosts and etc.
It is HOTh who's arguing that the Jedi/Sith powers are comparable to Imperium pyskers.
If its the second, why the hell should we BOTHER to compare pyskers with Jedi? As commandoes and etc, we should be comparing them to the Imperium equivalent. Which are.... Space Marines and stormtroopers. As a Jedi general, pyskers aren't comparable because.... they AREN"T generals.

Some of them are effectively generals (Inquisitors and Chief Librarians). Also, as mentioned, Chief Librarians vary considerably in power. The high end can kill armies solo. The lower end are capable and know their shit. Chief Librarians are experienced, not necessarily power houses. Since the Marines and the Inquisition tend to get better psykers and psykers do get more powerful the more they use their abilities, Chief Librarians tend toward the badass end of things but as a power level its a poor metric. The moron chief Librarian of the Soul Drinkers doesn't seem to be higher than Delta level (at best and on top of that, he's a fucking moron) while the Space Wolves, Blood Angels, and Dark Angels both have power houses as chiefs. Chief Librarian is a senior leadership position, not a specific level of power.

So? They're relatively rare enough that they DON"T feature on most battlefields. A thousand Grey Knights is now numerous enough to fight across the Galaxy?PDF don't have pyskers attached to them. Sanctioned pyskers attached to the IG have anywhere from one to ten pyskers attached per regiment, and even here, most of them aren't the high level pyskers capable of actually singlehandly turning the course of battle.
Hell. Even the Inquisitors aren't all pyschic. The Ordo heretic has inquisitors who are considered mentally tough enough to handle Chaos exposure.

PDF can have psykers attached (that's at the option of the planetary government. A handful of psykers allowed the routing of a grossly superior force in Only in Death. The Sons of Fenris's Chief Librarian (not that they use that terminology, but same job) is capable of doing the same job solo. The Imperium doesn't need a shitload of psykers for them to have an effective battlefield presence. It has far more of them than their are Force Users in the SW galaxy and many of them have powers that can help change the course of a battle singularly or in groups. They don't have to be omnipresent to be an important factor.

[PainRack]

It's educating you on psyker powers, an area where you consistently display ignorance and make incorrect assumptions. Raw power and battlefield effectiveness is not directly related to the ability to chuck fireballs, something you've repeatedly failed to grasp. Many can throw fireballs, but not being able to chuck a fireball doesn't make a psyker weak or ineffective.

Then may I state that I stated that most psykers aren't capable of manifesting fireballs and etc. Indeed, I attempted to make this clear via the usuage of the term warp sorcery , so as to differentiate between "power levels" vis a vis their capabilities in the warp vs their "powers".

Some of them are effectively generals (Inquisitors and Chief Librarians).

No. Seriously, no.
While there may have been pyschic generals in the Imperium history, or at least, they can retcon one in, Inquisitors and Chief Librarians are NOT generals and do not play such a role in the Imperium.

Also, as mentioned, Chief Librarians vary considerably in power. The high end can kill armies solo. The lower end are capable and know their shit. Chief Librarians are experienced, not necessarily power houses. Since the Marines and the Inquisition tend to get better psykers and psykers do get more powerful the more they use their abilities, Chief Librarians tend toward the badass end of things but as a power level its a poor metric. The moron chief Librarian of the Soul Drinkers doesn't seem to be higher than Delta level (at best and on top of that, he's a fucking moron) while the Space Wolves, Blood Angels, and Dark Angels both have power houses as chiefs. Chief Librarian is a senior leadership position, not a specific level of power.

And? I KNOW that. My argument is that we should be using Librarians as the gauge for Imperium pyschic powers.

PDF can have psykers attached (that's at the option of the planetary government.

And may I suggest that this is a relatively rare event.

A handful of psykers allowed the routing of a grossly superior force in Only in Death. The Sons of Fenris's Chief Librarian (not that they use that terminology, but same job) is capable of doing the same job solo. The Imperium doesn't need a shitload of psykers for them to have an effective battlefield presence. It has far more of them than their are Force Users in the SW galaxy and many of them have powers that can help change the course of a battle singularly or in groups. They don't have to be omnipresent to be an important factor.

The handful of psykers capable of doing so, sure. Those pyskers however aren't dispersed to every single Imperium world.

[fgalkin]

It's educating you on psyker powers, an area where you consistently display ignorance and make incorrect assumptions. Raw power and battlefield effectiveness is not directly related to the ability to chuck fireballs, something you've repeatedly failed to grasp. Many can throw fireballs, but not being able to chuck a fireball doesn't make a psyker weak or ineffective.

Then may I state that I stated that most psykers aren't capable of manifesting fireballs and etc. Indeed, I attempted to make this clear via the usuage of the term warp sorcery , so as to differentiate between "power levels" vis a vis their capabilities in the warp vs their "powers".

What are you basing that on? You keep repeating this over and over as if it's some kind of axiom. What are your sources for this?

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

[Imperial Overlord]

Then may I state that I stated that most psykers aren't capable of manifesting fireballs and etc. Indeed, I attempted to make this clear via the usuage of the term warp sorcery , so as to differentiate between "power levels" vis a vis their capabilities in the warp vs their "powers".

And you were told this is horribly inaccurate and misleading use of terminology and of a terrible way of trying to determine a psyker's power level and utility on the battlefield. And we keep on having to tell it to you again and again and again.

Some of them are effectively generals (Inquisitors and Chief Librarians).

No. Seriously, no.
While there may have been pyschic generals in the Imperium history, or at least, they can retcon one in, Inquisitors and Chief Librarians are NOT generals and do not play such a role in the Imperium.

Bullshit. As much as I despise the Soul Drinkers books, the Chief Librarian clearly demonstrated the power and authority comparable to a general. One Inquisitor was given a warrant of trade and a battlefleet with which to hunt and exterminate dangerous heretics and xenos beyond Imperial Space. Inquisitors do command and direct military campaigns (sometimes even against each other).

And? I KNOW that. My argument is that we should be using Librarians as the gauge for Imperium pyschic powers.

And you completely ignore the evidence that they vary too much in power for that to be an accurate gauge. Which is why the Imperium actually has a system to gauge psyker powers in the alphabet system.

PDF can have psykers attached (that's at the option of the planetary government.

And may I suggest that this is a relatively rare event.

Based on what? Your near total ignorance of how psykers and psychic powers work in IoM. Perhaps a wild theory that Imperial governors only recently gained control of the Imperial psykers their governments' use? Not at all true. Large commercial concerns employ psykers while we're at it.

The handful of psykers capable of doing so, sure. Those pyskers however aren't dispersed to every single Imperium world.

Considering how IoM worlds vary in importance and population, that's a worthless statement.

[Serafina]

Then may I state that I stated that most psykers aren't capable of manifesting fireballs and etc. Indeed, I attempted to make this clear via the usuage of the term warp sorcery , so as to differentiate between "power levels" vis a vis their capabilities in the warp vs their "powers".

Psykers that can not do this do not matter, since they are never actively deployed for anything. By the same reaasoning, i could state that most Jedi/Sith can not even lift a pencil, because this applies to the "average" force user.

We can easily judge the numner of actively deployed psykers. You are trying to arbitralily lower their abilities by averaging their abilties by mixing them with psykers that are already excluded from the group.
That's like measuring the average running speed of an olypic atlethe by incuding school kids into the equation.

And about the "warp sorcery"-term:
Not only is the distinction useless, since all kinds of psyinic powers can and do influence the real world (readin minds can lower the temperature in a room, farsight may lift objects etc.), but the term is already taken.
Warp sorcery can produce similar effects to psionics, but is a completely different mechanism.

No. Seriously, no.
While there may have been pyschic generals in the Imperium history, or at least, they can retcon one in, Inquisitors and Chief Librarians are NOT generals and do not play such a role in the Imperium.

Inquisitors can requisite every Imperial force and do regulary command them in the field.
Librarians are used both as field commanders (like every commanding Space Marine) and as advisors. They rarely command substantial forces on their own, but they are explicitly part of the command structure.

Even if those were retcons, that would still be canon.
And they are not - a retcon is taking an already established fact and changing it. At most, those examples were added later to seperate events (btw, even rogue trader already had librarians and inquisitors).

And? I KNOW that. My argument is that we should be using Librarians as the gauge for Imperium pyschic powers.

This actually sounds somewhat reasonable.
That is, until you realise that psychic power is ONE factor in the selection of a librarian, but hardly the only one.
There are two ways how librarians are selected:
-Someone who already qualified as a SM by martial prowess shows psionic ability during the inital parts of the training, and is then selected for the Librarium. Those can be fairly weak psykers, as they are not chosen for their psychic power.
-A young recruit in the Schola Psykana shows both sufficient phsyical and psionic capability. Those are not necessarily high-end psykers, either, since they still require phsyicall fitness.

And may I suggest that this is a relatively rare event.

I suggest you present evidence for this.

Pskyers ARE abundant in the Imperium, wether you like it or not. They are a vital part of a military force, since they are nearly the only defense against enemy psykers and can add vital abilities.
Why should PDFs exclude psykers?
And even if they are not a part of the PDF, what about the planetary goverment itself?
Are you suggesting that all psykers are either part of the Guard or Astropaths, and that there are no other psykers on planets?

The handful of psykers capable of doing so, sure. Those pyskers however aren't dispersed to every single Imperium world.

And you are naturally assuming that they are not deployed in an important military action because...?

Jedi are incredibly rare - way less than one Jedi per world. Should we therefore conclude that we can safely ignore them, since they won't be deployed in military action?

Your logic is pretty damn faulty to nonexistant, and i think your are pulling "evidence" from your ass.


Pskyers that can cause army-level destruction exist. The Imperium has them, and it uses them (with caution, but it uses them).
Thats pretty much a fact, and you can not explain it away by declaring that they are rare.

[Connor MacLeod]

Again why are we arguing about psyker vs Force crap anyhow? Do people really think raw forvce power is somehow going to matter in any large respect on the battlefield that carries the potential for nuclear grade firepower on BOTH sides? If we really were tlaking high end in 40K we'd be bringing Chaos and the Eldar into this (Shall we mention the fuckoff nasty magic death sword from Farseer? The one linked to continent levelling eldar engines?)

I mean seriously this is getting fucking stupid.

[PainRack]

Psykers that can not do this do not matter, since they are never actively deployed for anything. By the same reaasoning, i could state that most Jedi/Sith can not even lift a pencil, because this applies to the "average" force user.

We can easily judge the numner of actively deployed psykers. You are trying to arbitralily lower their abilities by averaging their abilties by mixing them with psykers that are already excluded from the group.
That's like measuring the average running speed of an olypic atlethe by incuding school kids into the equation.

Except........... point of contention was Shroom majority of pyskers can etc etc etc.
I hate to keep reverting back to that.

Inquisitors can requisite every Imperial force and do regulary command them in the field.
Librarians are used both as field commanders (like every commanding Space Marine) and as advisors. They rarely command substantial forces on their own, but they are explicitly part of the command structure.

Except that they're not generals in any real sense of the term. Imperial inquisitors can request forces on the field, however, their role and intention is not to act as overall generals to lead and sustain them in battle.
Chief Librarians similarly do not play this role. Space Marines in fact have little jurdisication over IG regiments, other than on their own worlds.

This actually sounds somewhat reasonable.
That is, until you realise that psychic power is ONE factor in the selection of a librarian, but hardly the only one.
There are two ways how librarians are selected:
-Someone who already qualified as a SM by martial prowess shows psionic ability during the inital parts of the training, and is then selected for the Librarium. Those can be fairly weak psykers, as they are not chosen for their psychic power.
-A young recruit in the Schola Psykana shows both sufficient phsyical and psionic capability. Those are not necessarily high-end psykers, either, since they still require phsyicall fitness.

Shrugs. Concede.

I suggest you present evidence for this.

The very fact that most PDF don't go into battle with a tame pysker at their side ready to marshal the forces of lightning, telepathy and etc?

Should I refer to the Battle of Armaggadeon?

Pskyers ARE abundant in the Imperium, wether you like it or not. They are a vital part of a military force, since they are nearly the only defense against enemy psykers and can add vital abilities.
Why should PDFs exclude psykers?
And even if they are not a part of the PDF, what about the planetary goverment itself?
Are you suggesting that all psykers are either part of the Guard or Astropaths, and that there are no other psykers on planets?

And? Said pyskers attached to the planetary government aren't neccesarily high power pyskers. They just need to be tough enough to prevent posession.

Jedi are incredibly rare - way less than one Jedi per world. Should we therefore conclude that we can safely ignore them, since they won't be deployed in military action?

Frankly. YES.
Especially since we're debating CIS vs in Wh40k. The Republic task force may have Jedi assigned, but even here, their effectiveness in a universe full of pyschic pitfalls is more dangerous than useful.

Thats pretty much a fact, and you can not explain it away by declaring that they are rare.

Who gives a fuck? My original point of contention wasn't Imperium pyskers CAN"T do shit like this. I entered purely to rebut Shroom contention that said pyskers are relatively common.

[Shroom Man 777]

They ARE relatively common. Just because, say, a relative minority of the world's population gets to fly in airplanes, or a minority of the world's population is literate or has access to computers or cars, or only a minority of people are homosexual, doesn't mean that they aren't "common" if they are featured prominently. Yes, for every psyker who can throw fireballs there's probably a thousand other psykers who can't do that and whose only psychic power is to fart out psychic-frosted flatulence, but those guys don't get to be shipped into combat situations, do they?

Soldiers compose a minority of the world's population, the vast majority are non-soldiers. But, ah, in a battlefield or a warzone... soldiers are pretty commonly seen, am i rite?

[white_rabbit]

Should I refer to the Battle of Armaggadeon?

Perhaps you should, your point isn't particularly clear to me.

Inquisitors and Chief Librarians are NOT generals and do not play such a role in the Imperium.

You know, in the recent Vraks IA book, an Inquisitor does exactly what you rule out with such authority.

He arrives on the scene and takes overall command. In Daemonblood, another terminator armoured badass Inquisitor is in overall command of a campaign.

In fact, WTF am I thinking, Inquisitors take the role of generals all the time in the Imperium.

Mind you, this entire tangent is bullshit, and Painrack is fucking clueless as usual about 40k.

[Shroom Man 777]

Inquisitors have enough authority to order Exterminatus. In the Eisenhorn stories, they practically command everything from Naval infantry strikes to entire rapid planetary assaults. Of course, this stuff varies from Inquisitor to Inquisitor - not all of them can just yank authority from battlefield commanders - but such stuff DO happen. You can even see Inquisitors take authority over Space Marines, non-Deathwatch and non-Grey Knight Space Marines, but they've also gotta ask nicely and not piss off the Chapter in question. This happened in Brothers of the Snake, too.

EDIT:

Hell, in the Ciaphas Cain books, you had Lord General Zyvan, Commissar Cain* himself, and a whole bunch of ranking Colonels pretty much defer to Inquisitor Amberley** when it comes to shit-ruining the shit out of some insidious threat. They're all ears and stuff.

* CAIN-KUN!

** AMBERLEY-CHAAAN!

=^_____________^=

[Connor MacLeod]

okay.. now we're getting into the topic of "theoretical power" vs "actual power." In theory an Inquisitor is all powerful and can requisition any level of help he or she feels they need (Guard, Space Marines, whatever.)

In practice, its not all that simple. Alot of it depends on who it is, where they're doing it, and the inquisitor in question. A low level inquisitor is different from an Inquisitor Lord. Space Marine Chapter Masters can differ in scale and power (First and second founding are different from say, later founding). Admirals and Lord Militant Generals can wield TREMENDOUS power... as can the Commssiariate or Adminsitratum/Munitorum within their own spheres of influence and at the right times. You can get Chapter Masters, or Generals or Admirals who might tell an Inquisitor to fuck off, and get away with it becuase they have the clout to pull it off or the politics behind it are too much effort for the Inquisition to waste on a "minor" Inquisitor. Assuming they ever find out (And here I'm thinking of the Inquisitor in the Soul drinker novel "chapter War" vs the Howling Griffons). And of course the AdMech can play the technology card vs other insittutions, even the Inquisition.

Ultimately, it comes down to politics, and politics play a role in theoretically every branch of the Imperium, so the idea of "unlimited powah" is not an auto-win.

That said, there are lots of institutions that can theorertically play "general" over the Guard. The Arbites for example have authority over the Guard and Navy (Like in Execution Hour), and of course there are many examples of Space marine Chapter Masters taking overall command of large wars and conflicts (Logan Grimnar, Dante) or even taking co-equal command (Marshall Brant.) aNd there are examples of the opposite happening.

As for psykers vs force users.. I've already pretty much fucking outlined all the parameters as best as they can outline (or as I can remember) so unless someone cares to bring particular EVIDENCE (as in a specific refernece that I can goddamn go well look up if I have the source), then it should pretty much be ended, particuarily since (as I repeatedly say) They're value isnt going to be in direct firepower except in tha rarest of cases. Its more effective for the Imperium to match Force Storms by activaitng a warp drive in-system than it is to get a buttload of psykers together to create massive psychic warp storms (or kill off large planetary populations, either)

[Shroom Man 777]

Since when did Arbites, the 40k equivalent of law enforcement, ever take control of the Guard and Navy?

But yeah, a lot of it depends on politics. The fact that Commissar Cain can get Lord Generals, Inquisitors, high-ranking Administratum, AdMech and Planetary Defense Force, Navy guys and Arbites guys, and goddamn Planetary Governors to work with and/or for him lies on the fact that he's very much polite and doesn't pull rank or act like a dick unless the situation depends upon it, and he's also got a whole lot of political power in being a Hero of the Imperium and a much respected figure who's known for his level-headed and compassionate demeanor. Basically, he gets so far because he acts in the exact opposite way you'd expect a person in 40k to act*.

*You'd expect a person in 40k to act like a goddamn murder-death-killfuckerous psychopath or something.

Man, Ciaphas Cain-kun! =^_______^=

[Black Admiral]

Since when did Arbites, the 40k equivalent of law enforcement, ever take control of the Guard and Navy?

Arbites Marshal Primus Byzantane in Execution Hour commandeers the Dictator-class cruiser Lord Solar Macharius into Arbites service (temporarily), and it's noted that he's entirely willing & able to overrule a Navy Captain and ship's commissar Kyogen.

[Highlord Laan]

But then again, the Jedi Order never fully accomodated to military realities.

If I'm remembering some backstory about the Sith Wars in what the Star Wars RPG calls the "Time of Legends" (Exar Kun, Naga Sadow, the KOTOR Jedi, ect) correctl, the Jedi one were a quasi-military order, and one of astounding power to boot. They had whole armies of trained and capable Guardians in custom battle armor, fleets of battle cruisers and wielded the kind of power that could crack worlds and annihilate entire cities. The Jedi gave all that power up when they realized that the more powerful they became, the more often (and devastating) their falls from grace became. And the Republic was getting nervous about such a powerful force that was merely loyal to (but not controlled or really even governed) by the Republic Senate.
It's written somewhere (I'll have to dig the books up again) that even such recent Jedi luminaries like Yoda, Windu and even Luke actually pale in comparison to the great masters that came thousands of years before. The Jedi willingly forgot and/or destroyed the knowledge to reach those levels of power, and they felt it made them too dangerous.

Again, I'll start searching for the books. A full shaker of salt comes with this post.

[PainRack]

Hell, in the Ciaphas Cain books, you had Lord General Zyvan, Commissar Cain* himself, and a whole bunch of ranking Colonels pretty much defer to Inquisitor Amberley** when it comes to shit-ruining the shit out of some insidious threat. They're all ears and stuff.

Not really. Eisenhorn HAS commanded such units before, but what Amberly does is to requisition IG forces to support HER mission. And of course, enforce Imperium orders. We see this at Gravalax, where she ordered IG forces to hold off entering the warehouse cordon while her strike team enters, she requisition Cain and prisoners for the recon in force later as her team is down. In Duty Calls, she is not involved with the chain of command.

Frankly, arguing that Inquisitors are generals is...... Are we having different definitions of what a general is? A general isn't someone who has an army. He's a military leader who actually plans campaigns, details troops, train them and supply and support them. The Inquisitors don't do that. Barring Exterminatus, an example I did neglect to mention, what the Inquisitors do is requisition and then command small forces to support their immediate objectives or demand that IG forces support them, such as Eisenhorn.

[Rochey]

Frankly, arguing that Inquisitors are generals is...... Are we having different definitions of what a general is? A general isn't someone who has an army. He's a military leader who actually plans campaigns, details troops, train them and supply and support them. The Inquisitors don't do that.

Actually, in The Siege of Vraks Inquisitor Rex does just that. He's given full control over the army, directs them how and where to attack and draws up the plans for the final assault on the Citadel.

[Shroom Man 777]

The point is that Inquisitors can take command over military assets and deploy them as he fits. I mean, geeze, general or no general Inquisitors can even command the Navy to destroy entire planets. That's the degree of authority the Inquisition can exercise.

Generals are military leaders, as PainRack's definition. Inquisitors can and do lead militaries.

[Eviscerator]

Frankly, arguing that Inquisitors are generals is...... Are we having different definitions of what a general is? A general isn't someone who has an army. He's a military leader who actually plans campaigns, details troops, train them and supply and support them. The Inquisitors don't do that. Barring Exterminatus, an example I did neglect to mention, what the Inquisitors do is requisition and then command small forces to support their immediate objectives or demand that IG forces support them, such as Eisenhorn.

Can't recall offhand where in the Ciaphas Cain books Amberley makes a footnote "and why should we, when we can call upon our own Astartes chapters for that kind of thing?" Inquistors are not and do not need to be Generals, they belong to a higher level of authority than what a IG General has at his command.

Furthermore, no one General in the WH40k universe has real control over all the nitty gritty involved with planning a multi-planet campaign. Ever seen a document on "the minutiae of a rifle companÿ"? It's several hundred pages thick In practice, Generals in the modern day world have specific appointments such as DIV commanders, Base commanders, or as an analog to Warmaster SACEUR or the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs Of Staff.

the role of Inquisitors is as stated in Dark Heresy core rulebook: Inquisitors are empowered to go anywhere and do anything - whatever they must to ensure the survival of the Imperium. The rulebook also further states that the Adeptus Custodes are among the few over whom the Inquisition has no power.