Auschwitz death camp sign stolen

[MKSheppard]

Besides, IIRC a lot of Auschwitz is a recreation of what things were -- I just finished reading Richard J Evan's The Third Reich At War, and it makes the point very clearly, that not only were the Nazis monomaniacally obsessive about exterminating European Jewry, they were also monomaniacally obsessive about cleaning up afterwards.

For example, they sent groups to early killing field sites where possible to dig up the corpses from mass ditches and burn them -- likewise, they did the same with all the corpse ditches from the early years of the death camps when things weren't as systematized.

Then, when that was done (in the case of the death camps); they began to blow up and dynamite the gas chambers and then the crematoria -- after killing the last couple hundred of "Special Detachment" prisoners -- then dismantled the guard towers, barracks, searchlights, etc and bulldozed over the site to return it to a patch of parkland.

At least one death camp (I forget the ones which) were cleaned up like this. This is why neo-nazis or holocaust deniers like to go to Auschwitz with chemical dye tests to "look" for the presence of Zyklon-B; when they fullly well know that the damn gas chambers are post-war reconstructions.

[Falkenhayn]

Shep is talking about Belzec, which was "successfully" dismantled. Majdanek was too large, and the Red Army too fast.

Philip Muller is probably the most famous survivor of the Sonderkommando; how he made it through a year at Birkenau I don't know. But yes, the low level mechanisms of the Final Solution were entirely inmate labor: body removal and disposal, cleaning the inevitable soiling in the gas chambers, checking the body cavities for valuables, and removing body hair for whigs. Being prisoners, the Sonderkommando could be safely murdered every 3-4 months, and replaced. Sonderkommando had a habit of rebelling when they found out they were to be killed, and did so at Auschwitz, Treblinka and Sobibor. In the case of Treblinka, the survivors of that rebellion are about 99% of the total survivors of the camp. And of the Extermination camps themselves, there were dozens of survivors out of millions "deported".

Holocaust scholars have the Bills of Sale, receipts, invoices etc. for both the private suppliers of the ovens, Zyklon-B etc., the quantities supplied, and their recipients (Aktion Rheinhardt, the SS in general, etc.) Saul Friedlander's "The Years of Extermination" (HarperCollins, 2007) is really the work to read.

[PeZook]

At least one death camp (I forget the ones which) were cleaned up like this. This is why neo-nazis or holocaust deniers like to go to Auschwitz with chemical dye tests to "look" for the presence of Zyklon-B; when they fullly well know that the damn gas chambers are post-war reconstructions.

They also use the very argument the gas chambers were rebuilt to say it's all a fake, or try to claim they were only used for disifencting clothes, or showing pictures of the outside door to the building with a "Ha ha, ridiculous!" comment, etc.

It's prety much the same thing as the moon landing hoax or WTC demolition "theory": you pick a piece of evidence, separate it from the gigantic mountain in the background, act like disproving (or, more like "seeding doubt") over this particular piece is the silver bullet proving your "theory", declare victory, write a book and rake in the cash. Oh, and never publish your findings in an actual scientific journal. That's bad form.

It's not like we have witness statements, videos, photographs, documents, internal memos, signed execution orders and ten million fucking people who mysteriously disappeared somewhere and never resurfaced, right?

[MKSheppard]

They also use the very argument the gas chambers were rebuilt to say it's all a fake, or try to claim they were only used for disifencting clothes, or showing pictures of the outside door to the building with a "Ha ha, ridiculous!" comment, etc.

Stuart demolished one such theory a while ago, you can check it out on HPCA's Essay section HERE.

[Glocksman]

Besides, IIRC a lot of Auschwitz is a recreation of what things were -- I just finished reading Richard J Evan's The Third Reich At War, and it makes the point very clearly, that not only were the Nazis monomaniacally obsessive about exterminating European Jewry, they were also monomaniacally obsessive about cleaning up afterwards.

For example, they sent groups to early killing field sites where possible to dig up the corpses from mass ditches and burn them -- likewise, they did the same with all the corpse ditches from the early years of the death camps when things weren't as systematized.

Then, when that was done (in the case of the death camps); they began to blow up and dynamite the gas chambers and then the crematoria -- after killing the last couple hundred of "Special Detachment" prisoners -- then dismantled the guard towers, barracks, searchlights, etc and bulldozed over the site to return it to a patch of parkland.

At least one death camp (I forget the ones which) were cleaned up like this. This is why neo-nazis or holocaust deniers like to go to Auschwitz with chemical dye tests to "look" for the presence of Zyklon-B; when they fullly well know that the damn gas chambers are post-war reconstructions.

Somewhat OT, but have you read Evans's other Third Reich books?
I have and found them an excellent read.


Back on topic, when I was in high school as part of an advanced history class project I was picked to help interview a local attorney who participated in the Nuremberg trials.

It was an eye opening experience to say the least because it's one thing to read about it in a textbook and quite another to hear someone talk about it from personal experience.

Historical revisionism has its uses (see Charles Beard's WW1 work), but the holocaust deniers aren't revisionists, they're liars.

[Darth Yan]

i thought they found the sign recently.

[PeZook]

Stuart demolished one such theory a while ago, you can check it out on HPCA's Essay section HERE.

That...was brilliant

Very educational, too. Compare claims made by holocaust deniers with reality: if you don't know much about HCN and its effects, it's easy to read the report and go "Holy shit!". That ignorance is what holocaust deniers are counting on, and that's precisely why I never believe anything they say or write without coroborration. One should always ask for sources and supporting evidence no matter how inoccous the claim: if a holocaust denier says the sky is blue, it pays to look out of the window. Just to be sure.


EDIT:

i thought they found the sign recently.

Yes, they did. Look a few posts up. Hell, they even charged the thieves already, they're facing up to 10 years in jail.

[CJvR]

At least one death camp (I forget the ones which) were cleaned up like this.

IIRC it was Sobibor. It was dismantled and flattened and the Nazis even built new farms on the grounds.

[Pelranius]

They also use the very argument the gas chambers were rebuilt to say it's all a fake, or try to claim they were only used for disifencting clothes, or showing pictures of the outside door to the building with a "Ha ha, ridiculous!" comment, etc.

Stuart demolished one such theory a while ago, you can check it out on HPCA's Essay section HERE.

I wonder why we should even bother to take time to reason with those cretins.

[PeZook]

I wonder why we should even bother to take time to reason with those cretins.

So that they won't convince more people with their slick sounding pseudoscientific arguments.

[Glocksman]

I wonder why we should even bother to take time to reason with those cretins.

So that they won't convince more people with their slick sounding pseudoscientific arguments.

Exactly.

On the surface to the average person, their arguments are persuasive because that person doesn't have the educational background to separate the grains of truth and their context from the ocean of bullshit that the deniers peddle with the tidbits of fact.

[Pelranius]

I wonder why we should even bother to take time to reason with those cretins.

So that they won't convince more people with their slick sounding pseudoscientific arguments.

Personally I never found their arguments to be convincing in the least. Though I admit that I read Night when I was in eighth grade and had been to the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum a few years later.

[MKSheppard]

From HPCA:

According to articles in various Norwegian news today, quoting Swedish newspaper Aftonbladet, it is believed the theft was commissioned by Swedish neo-Nazis, with the intent of selling the sign to a private collector willing to pay millions of Swedish Kronor for the sign. The money was to be used to finance a terrorist attack during next year's general elections in sweden - the attacks were to target the Swedish parliament Riksdagen, the Swedish foreign ministry and the home of Swedish prime minister. Säpo, the Swedish Security Service, is said to have been aware of the plans for some time.

[Steve]

Heh, damn. Good thing they caught the fuckers.

[Dooey Jo]

I guess the Nazis finally got impatient with trying to subvert the system from within, and had to go back to the good old-fashioned terrorism of the '90s.

[CJvR]

Odd. Our nazis are normaly not much above nasty criminal street gangs who barely manages to assemble a few dozen members to demostrate and needs a whole regiment of police to protect them and to avoid getting lynched by their enemies. Still the more rabid nazis have been increasingly marginalized lately perhaps they have become more radicalized.

[Simon_Jester]

From HPCA:

According to articles in various Norwegian news today, quoting Swedish newspaper Aftonbladet, it is believed the theft was commissioned by Swedish neo-Nazis, with the intent of selling the sign to a private collector willing to pay millions of Swedish Kronor for the sign. The money was to be used to finance a terrorist attack during next year's general elections in sweden - the attacks were to target the Swedish parliament Riksdagen, the Swedish foreign ministry and the home of Swedish prime minister. Säpo, the Swedish Security Service, is said to have been aware of the plans for some time.

Hmm. So, options (1) and (2): private collector who found politically motivated agents.

I assume they're going to get the sign back, then?

[Pelranius]

They already have the sign back. It's just been cut up into pieces for easier transportation.

[Eleas]

According to articles in various Norwegian news today, quoting Swedish newspaper Aftonbladet,

<snip>

*sigh* There they go, quoting tabloids again as if they were actual news.

I'm not saying they're necessarily wrong, mind you, only that the truth content of said tabloid is a product of happenstance rather than deliberate effort.

[Jade Falcon]

As an aside here, anyone interested in Auschwitz or the general topic should check out the Lawrence Rees documentary "Auschwitz, the Nazis and the Final Solution". Its on youtube as well, but the holocaust deniers contaminate that with their raving bile.

One argument used by a denier was that if there were indeed gas chambers, there would have to be extremely tall chimneys to disperse the gas otherwise the nearby guards would be poisoned, the fact there isn't means there was no gas chambers hence no holocaust.

[PeZook]

One argument used by a denier was that if there were indeed gas chambers, there would have to be extremely tall chimneys to disperse the gas otherwise the nearby guards would be poisoned, the fact there isn't means there was no gas chambers hence no holocaust.

Read Stuart's article Shep posted. It's brilliant, really.

Also, the holocaust didn't take place only in the gas chambers. They have a lot more work to do if they want to disprove it.

[Jade Falcon]

I did reply futiley that there were carbon monoxide vans. the ghettos, mass shootings, hangings, the Einsatzgruppen as well as those who were worked to death in places like the IG Farben factory, but to no avail.

[Falkenhayn]

Belzec used a mixture of CO2 and Carbon monoxide, Treblinka and Chelmno used pure CO2. Or 1.6 million murdered without Zyklon-B.

[PeZook]

I did reply futiley that there were carbon monoxide vans. the ghettos, mass shootings, hangings, the Einsatzgruppen as well as those who were worked to death in places like the IG Farben factory, but to no avail.

Ask them where 14% of the USSR's pre-war population disappeared to if there was no holocaust. Or 16% of all Poles, for that matter. They all went on a really long vacation?

[CJvR]

Ask them where 14% of the USSR's pre-war population disappeared to if there was no holocaust. Or 16% of all Poles, for that matter.

Well many were killed in the crossfire of the war, were deported and never returned to their home area after the war, were killed by Stalin & co, perished in the general hardship out east, were killed in the partisan war or by allied terror bombing. The excuses are endless if you refuse to accept reality, just consider all the moronic conspiracy theories floating around out there.