Fingolfin_Noldor wrote:I watched the movie, and I could have sworn someone was busy reading Frank Herbert's Dune. The similarities are too close to ignore. From the Messiah complex, to the way Sully was "accepted into the tribe" to just about a lot of plot points, sheesh... you could say this was Dune set in a slightly different setting, only this time in a huge jungle.
He who controls the unobtanium controls the universe? And to become a man you have to learn to ride the worm. I mean dragons.
I don't think there's much to the comparison beyond vague, broad strokes but there's a couple of neat little coincidences.
A podcast about the making of the film*. One of the guests says something to the effect of "if people had seen the four-hour cut there'd be no qualms about the story or characters." Makes me wonder what sort of extra material might show up in the DVD (presumably not an extra hour's worth), and how the pacing would be affected.
*I'm at 20 minutes in and it's mostly been about technical details about 3d films and camera stuff.
And when I'm sad, you're a clown
And if I get scared, you're always a clown
HAIL ZOR!WE'LL BLOW UP THE OCEAN!
Heros of Cybertron-HAB-Keeper of the Vicious pit of Allosauruses-King Leighton-I, United Kingdom of Zoria: SD.net World/Tsar Mikhail-I of the Red Tsardom: SD.net Kingdoms WHEN ALL HELL BREAKS LOOSE ON EARTH, ALL EARTH BREAKS LOOSE ON HELL Terran Sphere The Art of Zor
Here's an article running through some of the differences between the final film and the early scriptment. The scriptment itself can be found here.
Some interesting stuff: Trees in the Pandoran forest were originally envisioned as purple, with fish-like scales. Dangerous plants are easily spotted by the Na'Vi and Avatars, due to their UV vision. One predator species hurls its offspring (which are shaped like darts) into prey animals. When the prey is dead, the mother animal walks up and reattaches the infant to her head before feeding. Aerial predators include fifteen-metre jellyfish called aerocoelenterates. The Thanator, which chases Sully off of a cliff in the film, is called the Manticore in the scriptment, and is shaped like a centaur, with Praying Mantis limbs.
And when I'm sad, you're a clown
And if I get scared, you're always a clown
Selfridge is much more of an asshole in the scriptment. When he figures the Avatar programme has become useless due to deteriorating relations with the natives, he proposes an alternate use for the avatars; a breeding group used to produce a more tractable population of Na'Vi that the humans can raise from birth.
And when I'm sad, you're a clown
And if I get scared, you're always a clown
Saw it today, in 3D, and thought it was awesome. I'm glad the 3D effect wasn't used for cheap "scared you!" shots but simply as a means to immerse the audience in the environment.
Maybe it is just the historian in me, but the whole time I kept thinking "this must have been what it was like to live through the Conquistador era". When Colonel Quaritch bought it, I was thinking, "Ha! Take that, Cortez, you bastard!" I mean, the Aztecs must have had the same thoughts-- "what the hell are these people? What are they riding on? What's this 'boomstick' thing? We can't do that! How are they doing that? How did they knock that over? What the hell!?"
I felt that a lot of the plot holes in the "haven't seen it yet but I'm going to shit on it anyway" crowd were addressed sufficiently. I can see how it was "Ferngully with balls" in many ways but still a very good parallel to good old-fashioned corporate greed-driven imperialism sweeping aside anyone who got in the way. I mean, really, this is 1493 in space. Except this time, the Aztecs get to win a round (there's a sequel, so maybe we'll have "The RDA Strikes Back").
The Na'vi, I thought, were well-portrayed, even if they too obviously paralleled human native populations in their mannerisms. Fine, I'm cool with that, at some point we have to be able to connect with them as an audience, so some allowances have to be made. I also got choked up with the fate of the Na'vi, especially when the tree was destroyed, and I swear I could taste their anguish.
Jake almost dying was well done, too; remember in Cameron's films being the male action/romantic lead does not guarantee script immunity (Terminator, Titanic) especially once the humping has taken place.
Altogether, very well done and quite compelling. You can see the whole thing played out in live action, perhaps, by going to the Amazon rainforest now and watch land being clearcut for soy and beef.
Something about Libertarianism always bothered me. Then one day, I realized what it was:
Libertarian philosophy can be boiled down to the phrase, "Work Will Make You Free."
In Libertarianism, there is no Government, so the Bosses are free to exploit the Workers.
In Communism, there is no Government, so the Workers are free to exploit the Bosses.
So in Libertarianism, man exploits man, but in Communism, its the other way around! If all you want to do is have some harmless, mindless fun, go H3RE INST3ADZ0RZ!! Grrr! Fight my Brute, you pansy!
Crossroads Inc. wrote:Does anyone know the super religious Movie review website? I would LOVE to read their review of Avatar concerning the movie clear has "tampering in Gods Domain" issues.
capalert severly cut back new reviews a while ago due to "lack of funds".
Part of me thinks the sequel should showcase a previously unknown threat from Pandora itself rather than the return of the humans as the main threat. Maybe it's too influenced by Lovecraft, but I would like to see a Na'vi interface with a new creature, which drives them mad. If the planet itself is like a brain, then the threat could come from something like(but not literally,) a tumor.
So I saw the movie. The plot was simple, unoriginal, and I saw everything coming a mile away. It was also an excellently told story. James Cameron knows how to spin a yarn. I liked how technology was presented as neutral, with the scientists siding with the natives.
While the supplemental material shows Unobtanium to be fairly important to the Human economy, this does not excuse the actions of RDA. The Hometree lode was just the biggest and richest in 200 kilometers, but you could clearly see that it wasn't the only one in the movie in the hologram shots.
Saw it yesterday, had no time to post until now. The movie was absolutely gorgeous: it seems that Cameron has a real knack for taking a very simple story and presenting it in a way that pulls you in right from the start. From opening shots of the human starship through environments of Pandora right down to the final aerial battle between floating mountains.
I also have to second that action sequences are quite clear, and you never lose track of what is going on, which is a really refreshing change from the shaky-cam style of direction which is so popular lately.
Going into the technical discussion of various minor plot points:
1. It's obvious the humans were total dicks. I'm not sure how anybody could get the idea unobtainium was critical to the survival of Earth: it's not mentioned nor hinted at in the movie at all. Selfridge only says it's precious: and to add insult to injury, they only cared about diplomacy if it made the natives do what the humans wanted. I mean, Sully got 3 months to convince the Na'Vi to abandon their home, and if he failed, they'd have bulldozed the tree anyway.
2. The whole hometree question seemed borne out of logistical planning: the ship was still in orbit gathering reaction mass for the trip home (as per the website's mission profile), and the dozers were already on the way to the Hometree by the time Sully got his mission. This seems to suggest they planned on mining the deposit whatever the natives did in order to fit their schedule: by the time the Hometree was blasted to bits, the RDA had 9 months to develop the deposit and ship the unobtainium to orbit. In other words, the deposit under the Hometree wasn't just rich, it was easy to develop and convert into cargo for the spaceship in time. Otherwise, there'd be little point in starting open war.
3. It's never said in the movie the mountains float thanks to unobtainium.
4. On canopies: gunship canopies were not bulletproof! The Colonel's handgun pierced the glass just fine at range, so it's no big deal that natives managed to pierce them with with arrows fired off diving banshees at point-blank range.
5. I said it before, but it bears repeating: It's refreshing to see scientists being the sensible people, ones looking for knowledge and understanding rather than "RAR arrogant techies who don't understand the forces they play with!". Hell, the natives respected the scientists (the shaman woman commented "it's hard to fill a cup that's already full", suggesting they already knew a lot about the world)
6. In the final battle, Sully made a tactical mistake: their lone helicopter gunship should've hit the mining shuttle first with everything they had, since shooting down the shuttle = battle won, and it's not like it takes much to kill such a slow, lumbering airplane trying to perform a role it wasn't designed for.
7. Other thoughts as they come in...
JULY 20TH 1969 - The day the entire world was looking up
It suddenly struck me that that tiny pea, pretty and blue, was the Earth. I put up my thumb and shut one eye, and my thumb blotted out the planet Earth. I didn't feel like a giant. I felt very, very small. - NEIL ARMSTRONG, MISSION COMMANDER, APOLLO 11
Signature dedicated to the greatest achievement of mankind.
MILDLY DERANGED PHYSICIST does not mind BREAKING the SOUND BARRIER, because it is INSURED. - Simon_Jester considering the problems of hypersonic flight for Team L.A.M.E.
PeZook wrote:
3. It's never said in the movie the mountains float thanks to unobtainium.
IIRC it mentions this in the companion book.
PeZook wrote:
4. On canopies: gunship canopies were not bulletproof! The Colonel's handgun pierced the glass just fine at range, so it's no big deal that natives managed to pierce them with with arrows fired off diving banshees at point-blank range.
Can't exactly compare gunship front canopy glass to transport side glass, but its till holds, I see no problem with those arrows piercing like they did.
PeZook wrote:
5. I said it before, but it bears repeating: It's refreshing to see scientists being the sensible people, ones looking for knowledge and understanding rather than "RAR arrogant techies who don't understand the forces they play with!". Hell, the natives respected the scientists (the shaman woman commented "it's hard to fill a cup that's already full", suggesting they already knew a lot about the world)
Yeah, after so many 'nature good science bad' shows and movies lately, it's nice to see one where the scientists aren't self-serving dicks for once.
(the shaman woman commented "it's hard to fill a cup that's already full", suggesting they already knew a lot about the world)
Actually, that particular bit meant 'Its hard to teach you anything when you think you know everything'.
Yeah, it's like Yoda saying 'you must unlearn what you have learned'. abandon your preconceptions about how things work, cause you're probably a wrongheaded educated-stupid moron.
CaptainChewbacca wrote:
Actually, that particular bit meant 'Its hard to teach you anything when you think you know everything'.
Seriously? I got a rather different vibe from that.
JULY 20TH 1969 - The day the entire world was looking up
It suddenly struck me that that tiny pea, pretty and blue, was the Earth. I put up my thumb and shut one eye, and my thumb blotted out the planet Earth. I didn't feel like a giant. I felt very, very small. - NEIL ARMSTRONG, MISSION COMMANDER, APOLLO 11
Signature dedicated to the greatest achievement of mankind.
MILDLY DERANGED PHYSICIST does not mind BREAKING the SOUND BARRIER, because it is INSURED. - Simon_Jester considering the problems of hypersonic flight for Team L.A.M.E.
Grace and her scientist team had, indeed, made a favorable impact on the Na'vi; after the fall of the Lifetree they made an effort to save her avatar's body (although they left Sully's, but it's understandable considering an hour before he'd admitted knowing what was coming all along).
Something about Libertarianism always bothered me. Then one day, I realized what it was:
Libertarian philosophy can be boiled down to the phrase, "Work Will Make You Free."
In Libertarianism, there is no Government, so the Bosses are free to exploit the Workers.
In Communism, there is no Government, so the Workers are free to exploit the Bosses.
So in Libertarianism, man exploits man, but in Communism, its the other way around! If all you want to do is have some harmless, mindless fun, go H3RE INST3ADZ0RZ!! Grrr! Fight my Brute, you pansy!
CaptainChewbacca wrote:
Actually, that particular bit meant 'Its hard to teach you anything when you think you know everything'.
Seriously? I got a rather different vibe from that.
I think Chewy's right. They were interested in Sully because he was a soldier with no prior knowledge of the Na'vi or the planet. he'd be ablank slate; one of the big problems of anthropology is researchers coming in with preconceptions and the avatar project team would be no exceptions.
Just saw it today. Good movie, and didn't really feel the 2.5 hours zipping by.
Heh, I wonder how much that floating unobtainanium in the Selfridge's offices cost? It can't be all that precious if he has one rock floating in his own office for his own luxury to play with.
One thing bugged me though, did the Na'avi force to the humans to abandon the base? So what happens to all the tech? They gonna leave it there to rot?
The Na'vi don't give a rat's ass about the tech. They don't need it and it does them no good, and even if they wanted it they don't the the infrastructure to support it. There are a few remaining humans who prefer to stay behind (at least two scientists were shown in rebreathers in the "round 'em up & head 'em out" scene; plus a couple Na'vi wearing human-style clothes, so they seemed to be Avatars of other scientists/Av-pilots staying behind as well) so those humans will probably live at the base and maintain what they can/need.
The humans who stay behind will have two distinct groups-- the ones who have Avatars to pilot, and those who don't. The Av-pilots have the option to do the funky joining ceremony and fully inhabit the bodies of their Avatars; the humans who never got Avatars assigned to them may be shit outta luck (although that place still seems like a better option than Earth as it is described in follow-on material).
Still, the amnio-tanks are located at the facility, and the scientists are pretty much the ones behind the Avatar project, so they may be able to make Avatars for themselves. The process seems to take about 3 years, and it's at least 6-7 years to Earth, and another 6-7 years back, so they have plenty of time to grow new bodies, transfer into them, and integrate should they choose to do so.
What will be interesting is if the human population, especially the ones accepted into Na'vi society (and to the point of interbreeding), bring their structured tool-using minds into the culture. These will be "Na'vi" who do, in fact, see usefulness in roads and schools, the things the RDA wanted them to pick up on in the first place. Na'vi culture, at least the Omaticaya clan, is going to change.
Something about Libertarianism always bothered me. Then one day, I realized what it was:
Libertarian philosophy can be boiled down to the phrase, "Work Will Make You Free."
In Libertarianism, there is no Government, so the Bosses are free to exploit the Workers.
In Communism, there is no Government, so the Workers are free to exploit the Bosses.
So in Libertarianism, man exploits man, but in Communism, its the other way around! If all you want to do is have some harmless, mindless fun, go H3RE INST3ADZ0RZ!! Grrr! Fight my Brute, you pansy!
PeZook wrote:
3. It's never said in the movie the mountains float thanks to unobtainium.
No but it is stated in some of the supplemental material plus there's the fact taht the mountains are in teh middle of a massive magnetic flux and then there's also the floating chunk of unobtanium in Selfridge's office.
6. In the final battle, Sully made a tactical mistake: their lone helicopter gunship should've hit the mining shuttle first with everything they had, since shooting down the shuttle = battle won, and it's not like it takes much to kill such a slow, lumbering airplane trying to perform a role it wasn't designed for.
I don't see it as much of a mistake. The shuttle would have been easier to take down with the helicopter that's for sure, however the Dragon still needed to be brought down since it would still be fully capable of leveling the area, just without the 'we just blew an enormous hole in your culture with one shot' shock and awe daisy cutter attack.
I just saw it, I liked it. Which strangely I didn't think I would. I saw the 3D version, and the moments that really griped me was when Jake was talking to Neytiri and it was night, I waved my hand in front of me to get rid of that annoying fly that was hovering in my field of vision ... oops!
The story was generic, but I don't care. The acting was spot on, the action pleasing, the special effects outstanding. Although for 2.5 hours I won't be seeing it again in a hurry.
My one complaint (and this hasn't been mentioned yet) was when Dr Augustine was telling Selfridget that the Na'vi 'upload and download' data and have been doing for centuries, Selfridge responded by scoffing. Now what was interesting to me wasn't that he was scoffing that primitives were doing this (which would be understandable) but rather at the very idea of it ... which is strange ... considering the whole 'Avatar' thing ... you know what I mean?
Η ζωή, η ζωή εδω τελειώνει!
"Science is one cold-hearted bitch with a 14" strap-on" - Masuka 'Dexter'
"Angela is not the woman you think she is Gabriel, she's done terrible things"
"So have I, and I'm going to do them all to you." - Sylar to Arthur 'Heroes'
Heh, I wonder how much that floating unobtainanium in the Selfridge's offices cost? It can't be all that precious if he has one rock floating in his own office for his own luxury to play with.
They are mining it- he probably keeps some from the next shipment until it is ready to leave to remind himself why he is on this alien world instead of at home enjoying life.
Unobtainum is cheap on Pandora. The ground is so rich with it some places have mountains floating in the air. The cost of unobtainium comes from interstellar transport. 20 million / kg is a bargain basement price for moving cargo between stars at over half of lightspeed.
I have to tell you something everything I wrote above is a lie.
Bounty wrote:I think Chewy's right. They were interested in Sully because he was a soldier with no prior knowledge of the Na'vi or the planet. he'd be ablank slate; one of the big problems of anthropology is researchers coming in with preconceptions and the avatar project team would be no exceptions.
Exactly. The scientists were all about 'Let us study you while we play the role of 'magic enlightened sky people''. Jake, on the other hand, approached them largely with humility and a total acceptance to do whatever was asked of them.
Do you think ANY of the scientists studying the Na'vi spent weeks falling in the mud and getting their asses kicked?
Stuart: The only problem is, I'm losing track of which universe I'm in.
You kinda look like Jesus. With a lightsaber.- Peregrin Toker
Well Grace came close. She had good practical understanding of how the animals behaved. Grace also spent considerable time teaching the Naavi to speak english. Unlike the beaurocrats and security thugs she saw the Naavi as people like humans.
I have to tell you something everything I wrote above is a lie.
