EVE-Online Dominion, who wishes to play?

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Re: EVE-Online Dominion, who wishes to play?

Post by Stark »

Are you stupid? Yes!
Blayne wrote:Also I do not believe that counting the 5-7 replies of people interested in resubbing qualifies as a suitable sample for determining statistics of yours or my claim, I can only offer anecdotal evidence that EVE is a game that even players who do play long term will occasionally take a few months off but will eventually resubscribe, I have never heard of a case of someone quitting for good.
Whoa, there Tex. You said 'EVE is the kind of game that either you will get hooked to and play seriously for years (with some on and off breaks for a few months) or probably won't play at all past the first trial', with no evidence. I retorted there are people in this very thread thinking about returning after various long periods off, thus instantly disproving your totally unsupported claim. Your response? MAKE MORE UNSUPPORTED CLAIMS.
Blayne wrote:Now I didn't see EVE would polarize you in 'minutes' I said 'past the trial' although the Daedalus Project will probably give better statistics on the subject I think most people who are likely to play EVE on a long term basis usually make it past the trial the first time, and the majority of those who don't ever subscribe at all most likely never get past the trial is a logical and plausible assumption to make that Project Daedalus probably bears out for me, go google it.
So you've softened your language (to 'most') but repeat that it's rare for anyone to do what half a dozen people are doing in this single thread!
I don't THINK I concretely said "do this anything else is a waste" if I did that is a mistake on my part, I think whats best for a first timer is to see what you like to do and then do that but should always get basic learning skills done to 4 as soon as possible while doing the career tutorial missions.
Backpedal faster; amusingly you're STILL saying what you claim you didn't say. By saying it's 'best' or whatever (without any support at all) and then pussying out you just look like an idiot. And then you restate your baseless and dogmatic position!
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Re: EVE-Online Dominion, who wishes to play?

Post by Blayne »

PhilosopherOfSorts wrote:Blayne, if this is how you always try to get new people to play this game I'm not surprised that its not working.

I was sorta interested in EVE, until you made it sound like work, work that I'd have to pay for the privliege of doing. No, spank you, Helpy Helperton, I'll waste my time and money somewhere else.
Its work the same way collecting the entire Transformer continuality figurines is work.

Thing is I'm probably closer to the truth because frankly if you aren't willing to put in work for the awesome times that make up EVE that it probably wasn't for you in the first place. People saying you can join a corp straight off the bat and jump into PVP are liars. Its possible IN THEORY in the same way World of Warcraft has "PVP" in theory.
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Re: EVE-Online Dominion, who wishes to play?

Post by PhilosopherOfSorts »

That's the thing, Blayne, you're not making playing EVE sound like an "awesome time," you're making it sound like something I should be getting paid to do. At the least you make it sound really unfriendly to new people, like I'd have to put several months in just to reach noob status, and that I'd have to start several alts along with my main if I wanted to be effective at all. I really don't have that kind of time.
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Re: EVE-Online Dominion, who wishes to play?

Post by Stark »

Oh shit I missed him declaring it impossible to get into pvp (or Corp pvp) in the short term. I guess if he didn't do it it's wrong, or something? It's jot an immutable fact you have to troll for months and have three alts to get anywhere in EVE. If you've got initiative and pay attention you can go wherever the jumpgate takes you.
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Re: EVE-Online Dominion, who wishes to play?

Post by PREDATOR490 »

Its only worth pointing out that even in those 2 weeks the trial accounts cant really train anything that takes investing in learning skills that much. In two weeks you possibly be in a strained cruiser or a pretty good frigate pilot. However it does take some focus to do it in that amount of time, if your messing around, prone to forgetting to skill switch and cross training things then its going to hamper things quite profoundly.

That said, saying new players cant get into ANY PVP is untrue. The EVE advertisements would have you believe a lone Wolf can magically join an epic alliance by saving a lone Hulk being attacked by pirates which does not help the situation. New players come in expecting to be those Wolfs and quickly get schooled otherwise.
However, if your looking for new player PVP then cruisers are the optimal platform to do it in. Frigates can work but generally the kind most used are the T2 varients. Of course, the Wolf is a popular PVP frigate platform and the Griffin can work for gang PVP but those tend to require a dedicated amount of specialisation. EVE is as much a game about the players own intelligence than it is about the ship you fly or the skills you have.
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Re: EVE-Online Dominion, who wishes to play?

Post by Mr. Coffee »

PREDATOR490 wrote:Its only worth pointing out that even in those 2 weeks the trial accounts cant really train anything that takes investing in learning skills that much. In two weeks you possibly be in a strained cruiser or a pretty good frigate pilot. However it does take some focus to do it in that amount of time, if your messing around, prone to forgetting to skill switch and cross training things then its going to hamper things quite profoundly.
Adding to this, cruiser's are pretty much the best bet for new players, especially those still in their first 2 weeks. Doesn't take long to skill into them and the weapon systems and support skills required aren't that difficult to attain quickly. Also, a good cheap fit cruiser is inexpensive to lose (and you WILL lose it), and they can be surprisingly effective even with cheap low-meta T1 fits (want to screw over frigate pilots? Caracal-class cruiser with Assault Missile launchers loaded with stock t1 Standard missiles, a Microwarp Drive, a target painter and a pair of sensor boosters in the mids with a pair of ballistic control systems in the lows. Fast locking time, decient DPS for it's size, and pretty much tailored to killing small, fast targets like Frigates and it's cheap as all hell to fit).

Also, if you get distracted training skills or can't think of a good training plan, go back a couple of pages and read this post I made explaining the in-game certificate system and the third party tools EVEMon and EFT.
PREDATOR490 wrote:That said, saying new players cant get into ANY PVP is untrue. The EVE advertisements would have you believe a lone Wolf can magically join an epic alliance by saving a lone Hulk being attacked by pirates which does not help the situation. New players come in expecting to be those Wolfs and quickly get schooled otherwise.
Yeah, being the Lone Wolf in EVE is a surefire way to get yourself killed a lot. EVE is all about the teamwork. You see it in the way people band together as corporations, corporations as alliances, and alliance as power blocks to exert their will on a region of space. Best bet to learn PvP and get used to that team work is to either find an alliance with a newbie training arm or go do the Faction Warfare thing.
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Re: EVE-Online Dominion, who wishes to play?

Post by Commander 598 »

Blayne wrote:I am saying that a corp that puts a minimum threshold limit on recruitment to 1 mil sp to 5 mil sp is a logical thing to do as it weeds out the majority of newbies who probly won't pick up the game.
And why is it somehow a bad thing? Note that you can still get taxes off of them while they're still around and the only thing you have to do afterwords is boot them for inactivity after X days during the monthly inactive purge. That is literally the worst case scenario here.
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Re: EVE-Online Dominion, who wishes to play?

Post by Mr. Coffee »

Stark wrote:
Blayne wrote:I'm not going to discuss this with you if your just going to resort to attacks.
Grow the fuck up. Show the maths on training time for learning skills and how long it takes for the reduced training times to turn a profit, then tell me it's worth doing when you don't know if you'll play past 3 months.
I looked at EVEMon and did the "maths". For example, if I were to start training for the top rated Avatar-class Titan fit on Battleclinic (The hair Chested Version is it's name) it would take me 321 days to complete training for ship and all the fittings required. If I were to take the time to learn all learning skills to five (approximately 120days of training by itself), it would take my training time for the Hairy Chested Version Avatar fit from 321 days to 390 days. It would take me over two months longer to train if I spent the time to train all learning skills to 5 over not bothering and stayinf at my current 4/3 levels.

Those figures all assume having done a plan specific neural remap and having +5 implants.
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Re: EVE-Online Dominion, who wishes to play?

Post by Blayne »

I had already said not to train all of the skills to 5, just learning itself as it gives a global bonus, everything to 4 is acceptable, I haven't trained mine to 5 or intend to until sometime after I've maxed out gellente.


Now thing is, the amount of corp taxes you get from a green pilot whose one month old at roughly 10% taxes probably won't actually come out to more then a few million isk at best and thats assuming a very energetic pilot who probably wouldn't quit while a pilot with around 5 million sp doing level 4's could generate tens of millions of isk per month.

Now I typically use the X million sp limit in a flexible manner where if somone contacts me despite not having enough sp but has either a 1 million or says hes commited to play and bring other people etc I'll probably accept as its more of a barrier to turn away those easily turned away, a player determined to join even if very green is far more likely to commit.
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Re: EVE-Online Dominion, who wishes to play?

Post by Blayne »

PhilosopherOfSorts wrote:That's the thing, Blayne, you're not making playing EVE sound like an "awesome time," you're making it sound like something I should be getting paid to do. At the least you make it sound really unfriendly to new people, like I'd have to put several months in just to reach noob status, and that I'd have to start several alts along with my main if I wanted to be effective at all. I really don't have that kind of time.
Didn't you see the graph with the learning curve? Also managing alts doesnt take time, just the time to log into one, change a skill and log off of one as skills train in real time.

You don't need several, just need your main and an alt.
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Re: EVE-Online Dominion, who wishes to play?

Post by Blayne »

Stark wrote:
Blayne wrote:EVE is the kind of game that either you will get hooked to and play seriously for years (with some on and off breaks for a few months) or probably won't play at all past the first trial. It will almost always be worth it to have a few extra accounts with characters with learning skills all learned if you DO play it seriously, there is essentially no reason why not to have multiple accounts while its supported by CCP.
You mean like this?
Yes and what are you trying to point out? I said EVE can be a polarizing experiance this is fact, just look at Ben Croshaw Yahtzee's review of EVE.

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/ ... Eve-Online

Its mostly true, it is his experience as a new player, a grain of salt though over his description of combat which is missing a large portion of detail that he probably didn't play long enough to fully appreciate its depth and hes missing out on a large part of the game by not joining a corporation as The Mittani pointed our in his TenTon Hammer column.
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Re: EVE-Online Dominion, who wishes to play?

Post by Bounty »

I just noticed - with that first-month dealie I got a pretty slick solar sailing ship. It doesn't seem very useful but it sure looks purdy. Now to get it through all that 0.0 space back to where I stash my crap...
Of course this begs the question what would you use instead of 'Hitler Ate Sugar'
Presumably, not some lame-ass expression made up by self-congratulating mouthbreathers at the arse-end of the internet. You could, for instance, just make a point without having to use exceptionally uninspired ersatz-expressions for it that only you and five other children care about.
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Re: EVE-Online Dominion, who wishes to play?

Post by Mr. Coffee »

Stark wrote:Pollux is even yet another datapoint of someone who likes EVE (or the idea, or the play, or whatever, who knows) but doesn't have the time to play it. There goes that 'training learning is worth it because you 'll be ingame for years straight' I guess.
Hell, I stopped playing it for a few months and only came back because some of the stuff I heard about Dominion sounded neat.
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Re: EVE-Online Dominion, who wishes to play?

Post by GuppyShark »

Some nice quality of life upgrades. I also like the new ratting anomalies, I did a few on the weekend and it was like a mini mission.
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Re: EVE-Online Dominion, who wishes to play?

Post by Stark »

I returned for the same reason; I haven't played in a year. I'm not sure I'll stick around; I better head out to 0.0 before I get bored again. :)
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Re: EVE-Online Dominion, who wishes to play?

Post by Coaan »

Next, afaik nothing costs you money to start a trial account which in the 21 day time is enough to get all of your learning skills done, while you as a newbie are flying around having some fun exploring EVE have an alt or two training learning skills, under a trial account, that at least maybe one of them is activated with a free month once your main account is subscribed and bingo for a month past the trial you have 2 accounts for only 14$ with maybe a third one inactive but with all learning skills done, in this month you train on the remaining alt other important long term skills and then when it goes inactive whatever.
Let me explain how EvE works.

You start with a trial account. You get access to basic stuff up to cruisers but none of the fun ships that allow you to make any kind of isk. It allows you to get a foothold. IF you decide to subscribe, there is a one time charge now to update your account to a fully subscribed one as well as the monthly fee in advance. GTCs at this point can work to bypass the fee, but you have to buy two months of gametime to do that.

Now you have a subscribed account. Great. However, due to the way EvE works it's subscription system, you cannot have a trial account and a subscribed account running on the same computer at the same time, which basically means unless you bought a 60 day GTC from a provider and split it up into two 30's, you just shot yourself in the foot.

You CAN pull some tom-foolery in your first month with the aid of an alt, yes, but unless you make an alt each month, that trick wears out very fast. If you do want an alt, I would actually recommend using the buddy system to get the thirty free days added onto your main. IF.

The idea of a multiplayer game is to interact with people, to join corps, alliances and all that fun stuff. Sure, you can be an island of alts if you wish but WHY? If you play it like a singleplayer game where you have to do everything yourself, you are going to get bent over a table, lubed up and butt-fucked by those who have actual people behind the others they bring along. I don't care if you profess to be an octopus, one person will never be able to stand against many people.

But hey, I have no problem with carebears doing what they do. What I do have an issue with is when they give bad advice and then proceed to get butt-hurt and try to claim that because we're blunt in our opinions here that they are somehow less valid.

Still, you're at least willing to listen to ideas.
But you still have your main, and once you've started making 300 mil a month from doing level 4's in a raven (which is easiest way to do missions I hear, 1 month of skillpoints roughly to train to use it with basic skills maybe 4-5 months for t2) and then you can reactivate your alt, use it to salvage and now your money is essentially increasing and now you have a support alt for harder missions, corp mates can help this process get by isk wise faster and provide a funner social enviroment, this is assuming your just in a newbie corp for starters for the first year or so. Get +4 learning implants on both characters, this will help to speed up training times.
Except...

Imagine that new players don't have the support of established individuals and their bank-roll. How do they buy this raven without putting in an inordinate amount of time? level 2 and 3 missions provide shit isk when it comes down to it and level 4's are very difficult for low skilled/poorly equipped characters. So add another four-five months on top of that to afford everything you need to run these isk mines. It's closer to a solid year of play to get on your feet before you can begin to start affording plex cards and if you happen to get bored with the game before you reach that point (which is severely likely on your own)..

Lets also look at the fact that you need skills to actually fit ships. That takes time. Then you need isk to buy the modules. Where's the isk coming from? a new player would have to be seriously determined and never sleep to be able to afford a battleship in any reasonable amount of time. Then there is the tank issue. A character less than a year old is going to have alot of problems running level 4 missions to the point where they can knock them out quickly and efficiently enough to actually turn a large profit. In many cases, even 3-5 million skill point characters have problems at times.

Your estimates are off, or have you forgotten what it's like to be a new character?

The fact is that while EvE is ALOT easier for newbies than it was, it is still a very difficult experience to plow through when you are on your own and do not have access to someone else's wallet. There are means to getting isk without needing combat but that route is an even more time consuming path as scouring the galaxy for places where cheap equipment can be bought in one place and then sold expensively in another is tedious, to say the least.
After about 4-5 months you might have your alt trained in science and R&D and doing R&D missions, thats 80% of your plex cost, your now making in theory enough isk for 2 alts and paying only 14$ for your main, with intermittant free months from when your alts subscribe.
Except...

To use R&D agents, you need standings. To get standings, you run missions. I hope your alt has been trained for combat because otherwise he's going to be the proverbial smear on some pirate's windscreen.

The datacore thing is a good way of generating isk though, but to be honest, I would suggest you keep this solely to your main character. Even combat specced characters need science at some point and that lends itself to picking up the basic r&d books. Once you can run one agent, you can just leave it running and collect the minature isk bundles every so often. You do not need an alt to do this at all. It doesn't exactly take long to train up the needed skills with 100% training bonus either.

There might be some merit to the idea of putting together a guide for newbies though, seeing as quite a few folk on the forums are EvE'ers.
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Re: EVE-Online Dominion, who wishes to play?

Post by Nephtys »

The thing is: Missions and ratting are really the worst things you can do to earn ISK, in terms of time and return efficiency. The most productive things are market manipulation, PC trading (as in, running T2 Mods and materials to neutral lowsec/0.0 outposts and jacking prices), scamming and industry. None of those things except Industry really are that resource or skill dependant. And the problem is, none of those things a new character (or even someone who never tried it) will know anything about.

Making money by doing missions is a slow, painful, and generally awful grind that I don't think most people find fun. The most time-efficient ones I figured was the old standby of Play Caldari, Buy a Drake (or Ferox back in the day, but goddess that sucked), passive tank the hell out of it and run L3 missions for NPC Corps that offered good research fields. You could probably pick up 10-15 mil an hour or so if you were reasonably fast.

Now a good scam? That'll net you 200 mil pretty easily for about five minutes of work, and a lot of spreading the net. It's best if you can nab a reasonably rare-ish item from a friend and misrepresent it on the market or contracts. (Back in the day, it was True Sansha or Blood Raider Neuts, described as TS/BR NOS instead). Someone will still always fall for that old Raven -> CNR switcheroo, and that's EVE for you.
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Re: EVE-Online Dominion, who wishes to play?

Post by Pollux »

Blayne wrote:I figure the tvtropes will ruin your vocabulary page will probably make your head explode.


I am well aware of this page. Aware enough to say that most of the examples on it demonstrate far more tact than you do.
Blayne wrote:Of course this begs the question what would you use instead of 'Hitler Ate Sugar' and do you actually know what it means, as someone responding to me "BoB had sp limits on recruiting" as a sort of mocking take that towards when I said that most serious corps have sp limits, is probably the very basis of what a 'Hitler Ate Sugar' argument is.
It was also completely unnecessary to bring up, as others have stated (the fallacy is called "guilt by association", "Hitler Ate Sugar" in a conversational setting is at best a way of explaining the fallacy) You'll notice that I quoted statements in this thread where the mentioning of tropes was completely unnecessary/stuck out like a sore thumb. There have been cases where you managed to at least semi-competently integrate them into the discussion, for example:
Blayne wrote:If you want to talk constructively about EVE thats also fine, an internet discussion doesn't have to be a textbook example of Godwin's or Sturgeons Law, we can constructively and maturely discuss the changes of EVE its gameplay and why it would be a kickass to (for others) start playing.
...and for this, I congratulate you.
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I would argue that it is you that is debasing themselves to the level of 4chan, by constantly needing to demonstrate your membership in a certain community.

Well, I am also a member of this community, I also bring up tropes in conversations both online and off (the difference being I mention them when it makes sense and doesn't detract from what I am saying), and I am telling you that what you are doing is making you look like a smug little fool, and reflects poorly on the rest of us.
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Re: EVE-Online Dominion, who wishes to play?

Post by wautd »

Bounty wrote:I just noticed - with that first-month dealie I got a pretty slick solar sailing ship. It doesn't seem very useful but it sure looks purdy. Now to get it through all that 0.0 space back to where I stash my crap...
Actually it's quite usefull for exploring. Or at least to keep something at hand for a rainy day.

I also noticed I got this Apotheosis ship from when Eve was 5 years old. I guess this one was about as useful as a shuttle, but still goes around for some money on contracts appearantly
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Re: EVE-Online Dominion, who wishes to play?

Post by wautd »

About level 5 missions, I heared they're not really good money makers compared to level 4's but this has changed then? Doable with a high skill CNR and a support alt in, say, a Dominix?
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Re: EVE-Online Dominion, who wishes to play?

Post by Spoonist »

Hi Guys,

Never played Eve. Looked at the demos etc like 4 years ago but never bothered since.

Wondered something, is it possible to play Eve for the corporate/intrigue bit without actually having to comit to "missions". Thing is I don't have big chunks of time but rather lots of small chunks here and there. So I would be useless in 3h+ missions and stuff like that. But I like the interaction between people and I enjoy the spreadsheet/optimizing thingie. So is there a way to be useful to a gang/corporation by only handling trade/intrigue/logistics?
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Re: EVE-Online Dominion, who wishes to play?

Post by GuppyShark »

Yes, plenty of dedicated industrialists out there populating trade hubs and keeping the fighters supplied and towers fuelled.
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Re: EVE-Online Dominion, who wishes to play?

Post by PREDATOR490 »

If your going to be a passive kind of player then doing passive things like research, production, trading and general logistics is viable. I have been in corps that have members inside that havent shown up in months and I was in one where I didnt actually play for a year beyond logging in to switch skills. Thus EVE does not demand you to be that active although CCP certainly want it to be that way for things since it gives them their money and player corps want members that contribute.

As for level 5s, those are meant to be done in groups and after new changes they only appear in low sec now thus the appeal for them is reduced due to the risk of getting exterminated by roaming pirates. Its been mentioned that level 5s are meant for capitals to fight in and I have known corps that use carriers to run them but the risk / reward ratio is way beyond worth it compared to other options. If your that crazy about doing fleet ops and want to sink capital ship investments into running them. Move to W-space and kill sleepers. I gurantee its equally challenging, more lucrative and generally safer than level 5 missions.

Your standard C1 W-space can earn approximately 25 mil an hour easy.
For me, I can do a C1 Combat site in about 10 minutes with a Nighthawk, do 7 of them then salvage. Today this earned me 11 Melted Nanoribbens which sell for 6 mil each. Not counting the other sleeper loot so its well worth doing >IF< you know what your doing. W-Space definetly has a higher bar of entry in both skills AND understanding of EVE so I would recommend looking for a W-space corp if you want to learn fast and there is no other way of getting into W-space once you hit Class 3+ where the focus becomes less about working as individuals and more on establishing a good solid team that know what they are doing.

If your interested in getting into a W-space corp then you can check out Alarm Clock Corp and join the public channel via my character bio. James Sheridan. While our corp is not openly recruiting we are fairly competent at W-space so you can get your W-space info.
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Re: EVE-Online Dominion, who wishes to play?

Post by White Haven »

Spreadsheet piloting is certainly possible, but no corp is going to trust a day one newbie with the funds and resources needed to do trading on a level the corp will actually care about. You can, however, see about getting some seed money and getting into trading on your own while you build up a reputation if that's your thing. There are certainly enough of us around to arrange that. Intrigue...well, there's always the chance to spy, I suppose, but if you're talking corp infiltration, you run into the same trust issues. Spies and corp thieves are always a threat, so brand new characters looking to get into positions that require them to be trusted are usually boned.
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Blayne
On Probation
Posts: 882
Joined: 2009-11-19 09:39pm

Re: EVE-Online Dominion, who wishes to play?

Post by Blayne »

Level 5's still appear in High sec, I do them all the time, you find an agent in my case a Corporate Police Force level 5 agent in lowsec thats near a highsec constellation and take missions from him, 90% of his missions will be seeded instead in highsec.

They can be done with as few as 2 people, a passive shield tanks nighthawk and a remote rep dominix, having a guy in a raven or a golem is just for added dps.

Missions in general can be done in under 20 minutes though probably not when starting out, they provide a faucet of isk for low to minimal risk isk.

Basically when starting out you'ld do a few missions to generate some isk and then start trading and figuring out trade routes.

The trading subforum on eveonline.com has alot of information and resources you can use and the mission survival guide can let you optimize the time spent doing missions to do them quickly with no risk.

But Predator's info on wormhole exploration is pretty good, check him out.
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