Avatar apparently Evil Leftist propaganda!!!

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Re: Avatar apparently Evil Leftist propaganda!!!

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Simon_Jester wrote:That said, the "defender" aspect still tends to shade into "you have something to apologize for" territory. Ideas and historical figures that are widely considered above reproach will have few apologists, because their record is quite capable of defending itself, with no help from new specialists. Ideas and people that do have lots of apologists are likely to be the ones with a checkered reputation, such that a person would have seemingly compelling reasons not to like them.
I suspect that's precisely why the negative connotations of the word have developed, but although it is a natural shift in meaning, it's not inevitable. The word "advocate" is quite similar in meaning, but hasn't really picked up the same connotation.
Norseman wrote:Moreover Apologetics has nothing to do with the word apology, it simply means that you defend a certain point of view in an argument of long standing. Thus you could easily speak of apologetics for evolution, which is what you are doing everytime you argue against creationism, would you say that you then apologise for evolution? This is the sort of linguistic slovenliness that has people fired for saying niggardly.
Er, what? The words "apology" and "apologetics" share the same root meaning of speech in defense (απολογία/apologia). The meaning of "apology" as a statement of regret is also a more recent development. Hence A Mathematician's Apology (wiki warning) is not meant as a mea culpa. Likewise, Plato's Apology and Xenophon's Apology of Socrates to the Jury are recountings of Socrates defending himself at trial, where he refused to apologize (modern meaning) for his actions.
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Re: Avatar apparently Evil Leftist propaganda!!!

Post by Simon_Jester »

Norseman wrote:
Simon_Jester wrote:Thus, when C.S. Lewis is called a "Christian apologist," as opposed to a "thinker" or "theologian" or whatever, it's a pretty good sign that whoever did the calling is fairly deep in the secular-rationalist camp.
That would come as a fairly big surprise to the many Christians who...
Minor question: did you spot the bit in my next post to the effect that "I'm wrong?"
Moreover Apologetics has nothing to do with the word apology, it simply means that you defend a certain point of view in an argument of long standing. Thus you could easily speak of apologetics for evolution, which is what you are doing everytime you argue against creationism, would you say that you then apologise for evolution? This is the sort of linguistic slovenliness that has people fired for saying niggardly.
And yet "apologist" has mutated into a word that connotes that you have, if not something to apologize for, something that badly needs defenders. No one talks about "electromagnetism apologists," because the notion that the light bulb will come on when I flip the switch doesn't need any kind of defense.
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Re: Avatar apparently Evil Leftist propaganda!!!

Post by The Yosemite Bear »

Speaking of Jay and Silent Bob, there's Dogma which is essentially a battle of good vs. evil with Alanis Morrisette as god....
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Re: Avatar apparently Evil Leftist propaganda!!!

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The Yosemite Bear wrote:Speaking of Jay and Silent Bob, there's Dogma which is essentially a battle of good vs. evil with Alanis Morrisette as god....
I suppose Dogma is a Christian film. Kinda. Sorta. Um. Even the Poop Monster was Christian themed. Even if you waffle on it and call it a Christian film, it is at best a cult classic.
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Re: Avatar apparently Evil Leftist propaganda!!!

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A christian film?

Jesus had brothers, a Black Apostle. Angels working as strippers, Yaweh trapped (not really omnipotent).
Also, "He" is a woman.
Not christian by my standarts.

Funny as hell, tought.
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Re: Avatar apparently Evil Leftist propaganda!!!

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Because you can't possibly get those things in a philosophy that isn't centered on sucking some imaginary being's cock. Oh wait. I also like the usual naturalistic fallacy that if religion comes naturally to us this makes it somehow good as opposed to our brains being badly designed.
He is... partially right. Religion does facilitate pro-social behaviors, but it has nothing to do with the supernatural beliefs, rather with the social structures that surround them. Any secular social system will do the same thing, but by historical accident it was a cognitive parasite that hijacks normal and useful functions that those systems were built around.
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Re: Avatar apparently Evil Leftist propaganda!!!

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Spekio wrote:A christian film?

Jesus had brothers,
You've never heard of James?
a Black Apostle.
So? There were black people in israel back then, its right next to africa. Hell, there were black roman emperors.
Angels working as strippers,
Serendipity was a muse, not an angel.
Yaweh trapped (not really omnipotent).
Also, "He" is a woman.
Not christian by my standarts.
Nothing wrong with God manifesting in a female body. Remember, men and women were BOTH created in His image.
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Re: Avatar apparently Evil Leftist propaganda!!!

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Pardon my ignorance, but who is James?

I meant a 13th black apostle that the bible doesn't mention. The Bible being incorrect? Blasphemy!

About Serendipity: Indeed, she is ia a muse. I tought that muses were angels, too. Wasn't that devil with the hat a muse before being sent to Hell?

And the sexist Yaweh I know would never ever become a woman. They are inferior beings who should obey their men and stay on the kitchen.
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Re: Avatar apparently Evil Leftist propaganda!!!

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CaptainChewbacca wrote:The only 'Wildly Popular Christian Movie' I can think of is the new Narnia franchise, and even that's stretching it. Christians do many things well, but making entertaining movies with broad market appeal isn't one of them.
American movies are Christian by default. What was the last time you saw a confirmed atheist in a movie who was not a socially maladjusted asshole?
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Re: Avatar apparently Evil Leftist propaganda!!!

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Darth Wong wrote:
CaptainChewbacca wrote:The only 'Wildly Popular Christian Movie' I can think of is the new Narnia franchise, and even that's stretching it. Christians do many things well, but making entertaining movies with broad market appeal isn't one of them.
American movies are Christian by default. What was the last time you saw a confirmed atheist in a movie who was not a socially maladjusted asshole?
Hell, even the humans in Avatar seemed to be a post-religion society. Remember the briefing towards the end where the Colonel struggled with how to phrase the Nav'vi religion and just kind of spat out "deity" and everyone laughed at the silly primitives.
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Re: Avatar apparently Evil Leftist propaganda!!!

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Typical townhall fucktard wrote:In short, "Avatar" tells the tale of a disabled Marine, Jake Sully, who occupies the body of a 10-foot-tall alien so he can live among the mystical forest denizens of the moon world Pandora. Sully is sent in mufti, like a futuristic Lawrence of Arabia, to further the schemes of the evil corporate nature-rapists desperate to obtain the precious mineral "unobtainium" (no, really). Jake inevitably goes native, embraces the eco-faith of Pandora's Na'Vi inhabitants and their tree goddess, the "all mother," and rallies the Pandoran aborigines (not to mention the Pandoran ecosystem itself) against the evil forces of a thinly veiled 22nd-century combine of Blackwater and Halliburton.
Actually, the ruthless mega-corporation with mercenary thugs has been a staple of science fiction for decades, primarily because sci-fi authors could see that this was an inevitable development given current socio-economic trends. The fact that Halliburton and Blackwater happen to perfectly fit that long-running sci-fi archetype is not James Cameron's fault.
The film has been subjected to a sustained assault from many on the right, most notably by Ross Douthat in the New York Times, as an "apologia for pantheism." Douthat's criticisms hit the mark, but the most relevant point was raised by John Podhoretz in the Weekly Standard. Cameron wrote "Avatar," says Podhoretz, "not to be controversial, but quite the opposite: He was making something he thought would be most pleasing to the greatest number of people."
What a shock. An entertainer who wants to make entertaining movies for the mass market. Quick, stop the presses.
What would have been controversial is if -- somehow -- Cameron had made a movie in which the good guys accepted Jesus Christ into their hearts.
That would have also been a horrible film. Maybe he could have called it "Manifest Destiny" instead of "Avatar".
Of course, that sounds outlandish and absurd, but that's the point, isn't it? We live in an age in which it's the norm to speak glowingly of spirituality but derisively of traditional religion. If the Na'Vi were Roman Catholics, there would be boycotts and protests. Make the oversized Smurfs Rousseauian noble savages and everyone nods along, save for a few cranky right-wingers.
Does it not occur to this knuckle-dragging fool why this is so? Vague spiritualism is, by its very nature, not likely to result in crusades and inquisitions. Traditional religion, on the other hand, did so many times and continues to inspire such behaviour today. Look at Al-Qaeda in the Islamic world and the LRA in the Christian world, for example.

It's interesting how he notices that people tend to prefer vague spiritualism to "traditional religion" but assumes that this is some sort of conspiracy and not a result of traditional religion having been shown to be a bad system in history. Does he honestly not understand why the ascendance of western civilization and the fracturing and weakening of its organized religion happened to coincide?
I'm certainly one of those cranky right-wingers, though I probably enjoyed the movie as cinematic escapism as much as the next guy.

But what I find interesting about the film is how what is "pleasing to the most people" is so unapologetically religious.

Nicholas Wade's new book, "The Faith Instinct," lucidly compiles the scientific evidence that humans are hard-wired to believe in the transcendent. That transcendence can be divine or simply Kantian, a notion of something unknowable from mere experience. Either way, in the words of philosopher Will Herberg, "Man is homo religiosus, by 'nature' religious: as much as he needs food to eat or air to breathe, he needs a faith for living."
That's like saying that man needs war, since war is as universal throughout history as religion. You can't prove that something is necessary "for living" just by showing that it is common.
Wade argues that the Darwinian evolution of man depended not only on individual natural selection but also on the natural selection of groups. And groups that subscribe to a religious worldview are more apt to survive -- and hence pass on their genes. Religious rules impose moral norms that facilitate collective survival in the name of a "cause larger than yourself," as we say today. No wonder everything from altruism to martyrdom are part of nearly every faith.
Cart before the horse. Tribal rules of conduct came before the development of complicated "traditional religion". We see this today in the few surviving primitive tribes, which have only the most rudimentary religion (if they have one at all) but yet have a fully developed set of social moral norms. Moreover, this fool inadvertently refutes his own point. If the moral codes in question are genuinely useful for tribal survival, then they do not require faith because they produce objective benefits. The guy shoots down his own point but he's too stupid to see it.
The faith instinct may be baked into our genes, but it is also profoundly malleable. Robespierre, the French revolutionary who wanted to replace Christianity with a new "age of reason," emphatically sought to exploit what he called the "religious instinct which imprints upon our souls the idea of a sanction given to moral precepts by a power that is higher than man."

Many environmentalists are open about their desire to turn their cause into a religious imperative akin to the plight of the Na'Vi, hence Al Gore's uncontroversial insistence that global warming is a "spiritual challenge to all of humanity." The symbolism and rhetoric behind Barack Obama's campaign was overtly religious at times, as when he proclaimed that "we are the ones we've been waiting for" -- a line that could have come straight out of the mouths of Cameron's Na'Vi.

What I find fascinating, and infuriating, is how the culture-war debate is routinely described by antagonists on both sides as a conflict between the religious and the un-religious. The faith instinct manifests itself across the ideological spectrum, even if it masquerades as something else.
The "faith instinct" is actually more correctly termed "poor critical thinking", where conclusions rest on shaky evidence. Yes, it is indeed a very common trait in humanity, but that hardly means one cannot draw a distinction between religious and non-religious. He himself draws a distinction between "spiritualism" and "traditional religion" earlier! Traditional religion is not just a vague tendency to believe in things despite inadequate supporting evidence; it is a very specific set of ideologies, where believers are expected to conform to a group and dissenters are told that they do not belong. This is one of the reasons Christianity has fractured into so many sub-groups: the very nature of traditional religion is to tell people to get out if they don't conform to the sub-group's norms, but the original text is so poorly written that a near-infinite number of different ideologies could be extracted from it with equal validity, so everyone who has a difference of opinion ends up looking for a group where he can belong.
On the right, many conservatives have been trying to fashion what might be called theological diversity amid moral unity. Culturally conservative Catholics, Protestants and -- increasingly -- Jews find common cause. The left is undergoing a similar process, but the terms of the debate are far more inchoate and fluid. What is not happening is a similar effort between left and right, which is why the culture war, like the faith instinct, isn't going away any time soon.
There is no such thing as a "faith instinct". If there were, it would be almost impossible for people to extricate themselves from it. And yet, atheists do exist. No doubt this imbecile would claim that evolution is an atheist religion, but that's conservative propaganda, not a valid argument.
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Re: Avatar apparently Evil Leftist propaganda!!!

Post by Junghalli »

Alyrium Denryle wrote:He is... partially right. Religion does facilitate pro-social behaviors, but it has nothing to do with the supernatural beliefs, rather with the social structures that surround them. Any secular social system will do the same thing, but by historical accident it was a cognitive parasite that hijacks normal and useful functions that those systems were built around.
That's sort of what I meant. It's a complete leap in logic to go from the idea that religion may have benefits to the idea that these benefits somehow make religion necessary or inevitable. Especially the sort of benefits he talked about. There's plenty of ways to motivate people to respect moral norms and work toward a higher cause then themselves other than telling them that some supernatural daddy wants them to do it and will spank them if they don't. I suppose the guy who wrote the article would say things like the good of society and utilitarianism are just atheistic god-substitutes but at that point you're defining the "religious impulse" so broadly that it becomes basically meaningless.
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Re: Avatar apparently Evil Leftist propaganda!!!

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Junghalli wrote:
Alyrium Denryle wrote:He is... partially right. Religion does facilitate pro-social behaviors, but it has nothing to do with the supernatural beliefs, rather with the social structures that surround them. Any secular social system will do the same thing, but by historical accident it was a cognitive parasite that hijacks normal and useful functions that those systems were built around.
That's sort of what I meant. It's a complete leap in logic to go from the idea that religion may have benefits to the idea that these benefits somehow make religion necessary or inevitable. Especially the sort of benefits he talked about. There's plenty of ways to motivate people to respect moral norms and work toward a higher cause then themselves other than telling them that some supernatural daddy wants them to do it and will spank them if they don't. I suppose the guy who wrote the article would say things like the good of society and utilitarianism are just atheistic god-substitutes but at that point you're defining the "religious impulse" so broadly that it becomes basically meaningless.
More to the point, as mentioned above, the townhall moron thinks he can justify a need for "faith" by showing that there is some evolutionary advantage to certain moral codes which supposedly derive from faith. But it's a self-defeating argument: if evolution leads to the development of moral codes, then faith is unnecessary.

His own argument includes the implicit concession that evolution can produce moral codes on its own, with no help from religion, but he doesn't realize it.
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Re: Avatar apparently Evil Leftist propaganda!!!

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Darth Wong wrote:
Typical townhall fucktard wrote:In short, "Avatar" tells the tale of a disabled Marine, Jake Sully, who occupies the body of a 10-foot-tall alien so he can live among the mystical forest denizens of the moon world Pandora. Sully is sent in mufti, like a futuristic Lawrence of Arabia, to further the schemes of the evil corporate nature-rapists desperate to obtain the precious mineral "unobtainium" (no, really). Jake inevitably goes native, embraces the eco-faith of Pandora's Na'Vi inhabitants and their tree goddess, the "all mother," and rallies the Pandoran aborigines (not to mention the Pandoran ecosystem itself) against the evil forces of a thinly veiled 22nd-century combine of Blackwater and Halliburton.
Actually, the ruthless mega-corporation with mercenary thugs has been a staple of science fiction for decades, primarily because sci-fi authors could see that this was an inevitable development given current socio-economic trends. The fact that Halliburton and Blackwater happen to perfectly fit that long-running sci-fi archetype is not James Cameron's fault.
Plus, Cameron's used the idea of "ruthless mega-corporation" before - Weyland-Yutani in Aliens. He's also had significant military-industrial complex villains in Rambo: First Blood Part II and Dark Angel.
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Re: Avatar apparently Evil Leftist propaganda!!!

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Plus, to get sci-fi sperg on this, it seemed more like a private mineral gathering company that had some kind of contract with a governmental military force (I don't know any background beyond the film, but I got the impression this was like Britain protecting the East India Company.)
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Re: Avatar apparently Evil Leftist propaganda!!!

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An attempt by numerous posters (particularly Darth Hoth) to hijack this thread into a Christian theological debate has been split.
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Re: Avatar apparently Evil Leftist propaganda!!!

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The Yosemite Bear wrote:Speaking of Jay and Silent Bob, there's Dogma which is essentially a battle of good vs. evil with Alanis Morrisette as god....
My point is that a movie with a much weaker target demographic(stoners, geeks, stoned geeks) is able to make as much money as the successful starring Kirk Cameron overtly christian movie, made by the same crowd who does Left Behind flicks.

People go to the movies to be entertained, not be preached at.
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Re: Avatar apparently Evil Leftist propaganda!!!

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Lonestar wrote:
The Yosemite Bear wrote:Speaking of Jay and Silent Bob, there's Dogma which is essentially a battle of good vs. evil with Alanis Morrisette as god....
My point is that a movie with a much weaker target demographic(stoners, geeks, stoned geeks) is able to make as much money as the successful starring Kirk Cameron overtly christian movie, made by the same crowd who does Left Behind flicks.

People go to the movies to be entertained, not be preached at.
I saw the Wikipedia plot synopsis for that Fireproof movie. It sounds like absolutely intolerable preaching, unlike Ben Hur which was more like entertainment with Christian propaganda installed.
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Re: Avatar apparently Evil Leftist propaganda!!!

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Darth Wong wrote:I saw the Wikipedia plot synopsis for that Fireproof movie. It sounds like absolutely intolerable preaching, unlike Ben Hur which was more like entertainment with Christian propaganda installed.
You inspired me to look up the Fireproof, as I am a notorious masochist. Check this scene out. Kirk Cameron is addicted to internet porn ("Why is this so hard" lolz). His solution is to break his fucking monitor with a baseball bat. I the script-writers for this movie were Amish, and confused a monitor with the entire fucking internet.

Also noteworthy is the blatant product-placement. This movie apparently spends a good deal of time plugging "The Love Dare", some book about saving your marriage or whatever.

I honestly think this movie might have the same potential for cult-status as Reefer Madness. It's just so out there. One of the demons threatening Kirk Cameron's marriage is a fucking fishing boat. It's like they were playing MadLibs with the script or something.
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Re: Avatar apparently Evil Leftist propaganda!!!

Post by The Yosemite Bear »

another point about controversy in movies and Christians, "The Last Temptation of Christ". The two most objected scenes "Jesus going Medival on the Money Changers" and that "Lucifer appeared as an angel and offered Jesus a life as a normal person and an end to his suffering while he was being crucified" are actually in the bible.
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Re: Avatar apparently Evil Leftist propaganda!!!

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The Yosemite Bear wrote:another point about controversy in movies and Christians, "The Last Temptation of Christ". The two most objected scenes "Jesus going Medival on the Money Changers" and that "Lucifer appeared as an angel and offered Jesus a life as a normal person and an end to his suffering while he was being crucified" are actually in the bible.
The second one's not in the Bible (I think you're confusing with the temptations from earlier in the Gospel) but there's still no reason for it to be controversial. The problem was uptight people who just didn't want to pay attention to the movie and felt like being outraged instead.
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Re: Avatar apparently Evil Leftist propaganda!!!

Post by PeZook »

wolveraptor wrote:You inspired me to look up the Fireproof, as I am a notorious masochist. Check this scene out. Kirk Cameron is addicted to internet porn ("Why is this so hard" lolz). His solution is to break his fucking monitor with a baseball bat. I the script-writers for this movie were Amish, and confused a monitor with the entire fucking internet.
It's obviously how real people act, right? You get an annoying pop-up with some picture and promise of free porn and then you spend the next minute agonizing over whether or not to click on it :D

And man, I'm sure his marriage won't suffer at all when his wife gets home and wants to log onto MySpace, only to learn he smashed the fucking monitor :P

I sometimes wonder if fundies live in the same world most as most people.
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Re: Avatar apparently Evil Leftist propaganda!!!

Post by Crossroads Inc. »

wolveraptor wrote:
Darth Wong wrote:I saw the Wikipedia plot synopsis for that Fireproof movie. It sounds like absolutely intolerable preaching, unlike Ben Hur which was more like entertainment with Christian propaganda installed.
You inspired me to look up the Fireproof, as I am a notorious masochist. Check this scene out. Kirk Cameron is addicted to internet porn ("Why is this so hard" lolz). His solution is to break his fucking monitor with a baseball bat. I the script-writers for this movie were Amish, and confused a monitor with the entire fucking internet
That scene is so amazingly Awful on so many levels, After seeing a simple Porn Popup, he spends TWO MINUTS agonizing about it, reading the Bible, and pacing around in Agony over what he should do! And then... He doesn't just Smash the monitor, he picks up and goes OUTSIDE with it THEN he smashes it. The comments are also hilariously awful, and I can't tell if they are being serious...
i love this part of the movie
i would say it's my favorite
but then again, a lot of the movie is my favorite part

i love that he destroys the computer
he made the addictions stop permanently
he took control
and did what he had to do

he had the courage and strength to let go
and its a beautiful thing
Just WOW
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PeZook
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Re: Avatar apparently Evil Leftist propaganda!!!

Post by PeZook »

This message is actually rather harmful: remember kids, if you have a crippling addiction to internet porn, all you have to do to stop it is go offline and believe in the Lord! Seeking professional help is for weaklings and moral failures!

It's not like he can just buy another monitor or go to an internet cafe, right? Especially when his family will certainly demand he gets the computer back in working order.

I guess that's what Christian fundie critics calls a "value-driven film", right? It's the kind with no plot? :D
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Gramzamber
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Re: Avatar apparently Evil Leftist propaganda!!!

Post by Gramzamber »

Hey, what a wholesome message for all Christians out there.
If there's something you fear and don't understand, SMASH IT INTO A BILLION PIECES!
How very Old Testament.
"No it's just Anacrap coming to whine and do nothing." -Mike Nelson on Anakin Skywalker
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