Libertarianism in action.

[PeZook]

We can, actually, reasonably expect a libertarian society to become stable: it will simply evolve along broadly historical lines: we'd simply regress to the period around the fall of the Roman Empire, with a very violent and chaotic transition period. After the initial period of instability it will collapse, degenerating into some form of neo-feudalism, where powerful entities (most likely various security corporations, power providers or similarly powerful monopolies) effectively take over parts of certain territories and start performing functions of government in order to protect their profit base. Just like the tribal warrior elite that settled formerly Roman lands evolved government structures, laws etc. in order to protect their power base.

It will suck for the customers turned peons, of course. But feudalism generally sucks dick for everyone but the elite.

[Simon_Jester]

We can, actually, reasonably expect a libertarian society to become stable: it will simply evolve along broadly historical lines: we'd simply regress to the period around the fall of the Roman Empire, with a very violent and chaotic transition period. After the initial period of instability it will collapse, degenerating into some form of neo-feudalism, where powerful entities (most likely various security corporations, power providers or similarly powerful monopolies) effectively take over parts of certain territories and start performing functions of government in order to protect their profit base. Just like the tribal warrior elite that settled formerly Roman lands evolved government structures, laws etc. in order to protect their power base.

It will suck for the customers turned peons, of course. But feudalism generally sucks dick for everyone but the elite.

By the time the system restabilizes, it is no longer a libertarian system. You are not free to do as you please, and there are plenty of laws in place to keep the system the way it now is. It's just that the government has been replaced by CEOs or, more likely, Mafia dons.

So saying a libertarian society will become stable is a bit like of like saying a hillside on the verge of having an avalanche is stable because the rocks will eventually settle into a stable configuration.

[PeZook]

By the time the system restabilizes, it is no longer a libertarian system. You are not free to do as you please, and there are plenty of laws in place to keep the system the way it now is. It's just that the government has been replaced by CEOs or, more likely, Mafia dons.

So saying a libertarian society will become stable is a bit like of like saying a hillside on the verge of having an avalanche is stable because the rocks will eventually settle into a stable configuration.

Duh. Of course it's no longer be a libertarian system, that was my point: a complete anarchistic society is simply a temporary state of things that exists before a large enough organization takes over, because organizations are always more powerful than individuals.

[Surlethe]

Note, though - this is an interesting counterargument - that in a libertarian fantasy world, the government will have very little power, so when it is inevitably bought out by corporate interests (as in the Gilded Age) it won't be able to do much damage. When it has a lot of power, as now, and is bought out, it can fuck things over pretty good.

The problem with that libertarian argument is that in such a libertarian fantasy world, the corporations don't need to buy out the government to wield tyrannical power; they already have that kind of power in such a world.

Why is this the case?

[Simon_Jester]

Lack of contradiction. No one stops them from having that sort of power; they have reasons to desire that sort of power. They will have that sort of power in short order, unless institutions arise to block them... in which case those institutions themselves become powerful enough to act as a government.

[Lord of the Abyss]

Lack of contradiction. No one stops them from having that sort of power; they have reasons to desire that sort of power. They will have that sort of power in short order, unless institutions arise to block them... in which case those institutions themselves become powerful enough to act as a government.

This.

Also, they have a great deal of power simply by being the source of people's livelihoods; without government restraint, they can use that power. "Do what we say or starve" is just as powerful in its way as "do what we say or we shoot you". And without the government stopping them, there's nothing to stop the corporations from getting together and setting up systems of blacklists ( so you can't just go to another employer ), fixing prices, merging into monopolies, and so on. One of the problem with libertarianism and related free market fantasies is that it presumes that companies either can't or won't decide to cooperate with each other; it assumes that they will always choose to compete regardless of their self interest. It also presumes that no company will ever grow so strong that successful competition against it is impossible. I've even heard them insist that monopolies only exist due to government regulation.