Dresden Files vs X-Files.

[Bakustra]

From my copy.

The scarlet footprints of something like a large wolf led in a straight line toward the shattered window. In the center of the room were the remains of a greater circle of summoning, its three rings of symbols carefully wrought in white chalk upon the wooden floor, burning sticks of incense interspersed among the symbols of the second ring. What was left of Kim Delaney lay naked and supine.....

Later on in the search in another room

In the center of the chamber was another three-ring summoning circle, but this one's symbols had been made from silver and set into the concrete of the floor. Short bars of what looked like a mixture of silver and obsidian were interspersed around the second circle

The one broke up by the FBI occured a month before Kim approached Dresden.

it is possible that Kim did imprison MacFinn once or so depending on the night of the full moon and his transformation, but is there any evidence that this occured? The exact dates of MacFinn transformation is unclear and so far, all the internal evidence from Fool Moon, including Tera West condemnation of Kim suggest otherwise.

Huh. Well, I concede in the face of dastardly evidence. I agree that the internal chronology only makes sense if she couldn't hold him for very long during the transformation.

[The Dark]

It would be interesting to know how the White Council and magical training is conducted in the Dresden verse. Snippets of Dresden training and Mai views aside, magic is apparently easy enough that it can be picked up without formal or apprentenice training like Kim and Victor Sells. Indeed, Spoiler

Thomas Raith can do a tracking spell in one of the spin off short stories. In the same short, he compared himself as attending a two month vocational educational course while Harry had multiple degrees from MIT, Yales and Harvard. He also noted that magic was a skill and it was exhausting and give people headaches.

. Of course, Dresden concern that Victor may had some training by rogue wizards is plausible.

There may be an element of inheritance in being able to do lesser magics, given that Spoiler

Thomas is the son of a (presumably) powerful mage in addition to being White Court.

It may be that the spell he used is relatively simple (hence the "vocational course" comment), but that the training Harry went through both lets him cast more powerful spells and have a lesser effect from casting spells.

[PainRack]

There may be an element of inheritance in being able to do lesser magics, given that Spoiler

Thomas is the son of a (presumably) powerful mage in addition to being White Court.

It may be that the spell he used is relatively simple (hence the "vocational course" comment), but that the training Harry went through both lets him cast more powerful spells and have a lesser effect from casting spells.

Well...... in Spoiler

White Night, magic is supposedly passed down through the mother. I would point out that in Death Masks and Grave Peril, Bob says that even relative minor talent can receive training sufficient to exhibit major power, and we see Bianca, within the timeframe of a year gain sufficient magical powers to stand up to Dresden, resulting in him commenting that she was White Council standard.

Its also interesting to note just how significant training is compared to raw power.Spoiler

Captain Lucio mentioned in Small Favor that Dresden could power the greater circle for half an hour or more, but even in her previous body, she couldn't have powered the circle.

Yet, Dresden considers her to be more skilled, deadly and effective a combat wizard than him...


You know, it would be wonderful if we could actually get shorts on how the "norms" at City Hall and the Senior Council/Wardens view Dresden.

Similarly, anyone having access to the graphic novel knows why Dresden doesn't do more item enchantment for sale? We know he has done it before, cause its mentioned in Storm Front and Grave Peril. There's supposed to be some difficulty along with spells dying out, but that would just mean a repeated market for sale:D

[The Dark]

Its also interesting to note just how significant training is compared to raw power.Spoiler

Captain Lucio mentioned in Small Favor that Dresden could power the greater circle for half an hour or more, but even in her previous body, she couldn't have powered the circle.

Yet, Dresden considers her to be more skilled, deadly and effective a combat wizard than him...

Dresden has self-identified as being a magical "thug" before, noting that he's got a good amount of raw power, but not much fine control over his magic, which is why he uses the blasting rod to focus his spells. To use a crude analogy, Dresden's a chainsaw, while Luccio's a rapier. I believe even Molly's noted as having a more refined touch with magic than Harry.

[Alyrium Denryle]

Dresden has self-identified as being a magical "thug" before, noting that he's got a good amount of raw power, but not much fine control over his magic, which is why he uses the blasting rod to focus his spells. To use a crude analogy, Dresden's a chainsaw, while Luccio's a rapier. I believe even Molly's noted as having a more refined touch with magic than Harry.

Molly has that refined touch to the exclusion of having any real talent for Evocation. She can do things like build wards, veils, and thaumaturgy very well but she can barely create a shield to hold back snowballs. maybe she will develop it to the point that it is functional with regimented discipline, but that is not today.

Dresden on the other hand can pick up a car and throw it, call up the flaming spirits of the dead, melt the earth in large swaths, but cannot hex his way out of a set of handcuffs without killing himself. This is probably just a function of age though. It is largely mentioned that it is the much older wizards that have a talent for finely controlled magic, through experience and training, and they can use that training to gain considerable power through economy and efficiency in their use of what mystic might they have.

[Garlak]

Er, IIRC thaumaturgy is the are of spells that deal with circles and finding symbolic items to forge a connection between a small thing and a big thing. Molly hasn't been shown to do any thaumaturgy yet, beyond being able to close a circle--which BUTTERS managed to do, and her attempts at potions (which also require picking up symbolistic stuff) can be... hazardous.


And Harry, when faced with handcuffs, laments being unable to blast the handcuffs apart without blasting his hands, legs, torso, and the nearby area to bits along with them... Somebody like Molly, if they didn't utilize finer control to "snap" the handcuffs, would probably do something, I dunno... odder/more subtle to get out of them...


Uh, guess I'm not really disagreeing with either of you here.


Er, anyone have any insights into the X-Files portion of this thread? As much as I love reading/discussing Dresden Files stuff.

[PainRack]

Molly has that refined touch to the exclusion of having any real talent for Evocation. She can do things like build wards, veils, and thaumaturgy very well but she can barely create a shield to hold back snowballs. maybe she will develop it to the point that it is functional with regimented discipline, but that is not today.

Dresden on the other hand can pick up a car and throw it, call up the flaming spirits of the dead, melt the earth in large swaths, but cannot hex his way out of a set of handcuffs without killing himself. This is probably just a function of age though. It is largely mentioned that it is the much older wizards that have a talent for finely controlled magic, through experience and training, and they can use that training to gain considerable power through economy and efficiency in their use of what mystic might they have.

There's a correction here. White Night and Small Favour establishes that Molly pyschic senses are too delicate to withstand combat, not her refined skill for evocation. There's the question of whether further training could overcome this defect, allowing her to defend herself in combat. Dresden noted originally in Summer Knight that not everyone in the White Council were capable of the quick evocation neccesary to be a combat wizard.

Dresden himself claims in Storm Front that his skill in evocation is poor, yet, by Grave Peril, he can summon up wave after wave of fire and burn the Velvet Room down. And Bianca and etc.
Also, one should note that the car bit was initially done with the assist of HellFire.

BTW, found the quote in Blackout. According to Thomas Raith, EVERYONE can do magic, although not everyone can be good at it.
Also, dark magic used to kill leaves a much more significant "trace" in the aura, one that Bob believes would had been detected by Dresden. One wonders what the signifiance of the "electric thrill" in a practionier is, ditto to the "deep ocean" feel of Michael power.

[PainRack]

Er, anyone have any insights into the X-Files portion of this thread? As much as I love reading/discussing Dresden Files stuff.

Meh. What makes you think the conspiracy doesn't know about the Council existence and has subverted it already?:D

[The Romulan Republic]

Er, anyone have any insights into the X-Files portion of this thread? As much as I love reading/discussing Dresden Files stuff.

I do, but it would help if you had some specific questions. Summarizing the entire series would probably take a page or so, and I don't have the time for it right now (I'll try to put up a brief summary later).

[Alyrium Denryle]

There's the question of whether further training could overcome this defect, allowing her to defend herself in combat.

But she can. She can keep her wits about her well enough to do combat veils to protect her siblings.

Dresden himself claims in Storm Front that his skill in evocation is poor, yet, by Grave Peril, he can summon up wave after wave of fire and burn the Velvet Room down. And Bianca and etc.

Only because he lacks fine control. He was always able to sling around a very impressive amount of fire, but he always risked killing himself with backlash to do it without his foci. Those who have more experience are able to control their power better, like Luccio for example.

One wonders what the signifiance of the "electric thrill" in a practionier is, ditto to the "deep ocean" feel of Michael power.

Exposure maybe? Even Butters can use his blood to close a circle. There is probably a certain amount of magic that anyone can do if they know how. Closing circles, maybe using them to utilize primitive true name magic if they know a Name. However you wont see them slinging spells. It is probably that level of power that the electric thrill is. The ability to channel your will into a desired effect through an actual spell. Perhaps it is the ability to initiate a soulgaze or use The Sight.

Er, IIRC thaumaturgy is the are of spells that deal with circles and finding symbolic items to forge a connection between a small thing and a big thing. Molly hasn't been shown to do any thaumaturgy yet, beyond being able to close a circle--which BUTTERS managed to do, and her attempts at potions (which also require picking up symbolistic stuff) can be... hazardous.

Sure, but that is training. Sort of like how high school students without being taught what a lot of symbols are will make mistakes when trying to analyze literature. With training, thaumaturgy might be more her style, as it does not expose her to the same stresses that up-close quick and dirty evocation would.

[The Dark]

Dresden himself claims in Storm Front that his skill in evocation is poor, yet, by Grave Peril, he can summon up wave after wave of fire and burn the Velvet Room down. And Bianca and etc.

Only because he lacks fine control. He was always able to sling around a very impressive amount of fire, but he always risked killing himself with backlash to do it without his foci. Those who have more experience are able to control their power better, like Luccio for example.

I think there is still some talent involved - I don't recall Ramirez using foci, and he's noted as being the youngest Regional Commander.

[Alyrium Denryle]

Dresden himself claims in Storm Front that his skill in evocation is poor, yet, by Grave Peril, he can summon up wave after wave of fire and burn the Velvet Room down. And Bianca and etc.

Only because he lacks fine control. He was always able to sling around a very impressive amount of fire, but he always risked killing himself with backlash to do it without his foci. Those who have more experience are able to control their power better, like Luccio for example.

I think there is still some talent involved - I don't recall Ramirez using foci, and he's noted as being the youngest Regional Commander.

He was also in a formal apprenticeship and was trained more intensively for combat than harry was. There is probably a talent components (fine control is easier for some than others) but Ramirez was definitely trained formally for combat with other wizards and supernatural beings.

[Jaevric]

Ramirez does use foci, anyway. In one of the books - "White Night," page 327 - Ramirez dons an armored gauntlet before going into a fight. "A glove made of heavy leather overlaid with slender steel plates, each inscribed with pictoglyphs that looked Aztec or Olmec or something." Also, Harry gets teased by Elaine for using "phallic" foci in the books. Elaine uses a short, thick thorn-like foci, an inscribed chain, and an ankle bracelet with charms on it as foci.

It may be that most wizards use various types of foci, and it's just that Harry favors the old-fashioned staff and blasting rod while most wizards prefer their foci to be more subtle and concealable.

[PainRack]

Ramirez does use foci, anyway. In one of the books - "White Night," page 327 - Ramirez dons an armored gauntlet before going into a fight. "A glove made of heavy leather overlaid with slender steel plates, each inscribed with pictoglyphs that looked Aztec or Olmec or something." Also, Harry gets teased by Elaine for using "phallic" foci in the books. Elaine uses a short, thick thorn-like foci, an inscribed chain, and an ankle bracelet with charms on it as foci.

It may be that most wizards use various types of foci, and it's just that Harry favors the old-fashioned staff and blasting rod while most wizards prefer their foci to be more subtle and concealable.

Can't be most wizards since Luccio, Morgan, Ebezznar all have used staffs as foci before.

Its interesting to note that Dresden routinely go through blasting rods but has so far only replaced his staff foci "once"(as noted)

[Lord of the Abyss]

Its interesting to note that Dresden routinely go through blasting rods but has so far only replaced his staff foci "once"(as noted)

I've just been re-reading the series; in Blood Rites Lara's sister, Inari the teenage girl breaks a blasting rod over Harry's head. So obviously they aren't very sturdy. On the other hand, Harry uses the staff to hit people with physically on occasion; clearly it's much tougher.

[Kingmaker]

I've just been re-reading the series; in Blood Rites Lara's sister, Inari the teenage girl breaks a blasting rod over Harry's head. So obviously they aren't very sturdy. On the other hand, Harry uses the staff to hit people with physically on occasion; clearly it's much tougher.

Remember, the blasting rod is basically a stick. Breaking a small stick by hitting it against something isn't that difficult. Harry's staff is much larger, both in length and diameter.

As far as Harry's evocations go, it is worth nothing that he uses a focus for all (fire, wind, shield, force) of them, and that practice is definitely an important aspect it. In Small Favor he mentions that training Molly forced him to practice doing small, precise evocations, and he's gotten better at it as a result.

[PainRack]

Remember, the blasting rod is basically a stick. Breaking a small stick by hitting it against something isn't that difficult. Harry's staff is much larger, both in length and diameter.

As far as Harry's evocations go, it is worth nothing that he uses a focus for all (fire, wind, shield, force) of them, and that practice is definitely an important aspect it. In Small Favor he mentions that training Molly forced him to practice doing small, precise evocations, and he's gotten better at it as a result.

Dresden has successfully used all the types you mentioned without a focus before.
Especially if one considers the melty sun in the hand a firespell.

[Lord of the Abyss]

Dresden has successfully used all the types you mentioned without a focus before.
Especially if one considers the melty sun in the hand a firespell.

He's been getting better; and the fireball was a specific spell he's been working on for some time, not a spur of the moment magic. And the blasting rod just aids in focusing the magic; he can use magic without it; just not as safely. When in Death Masks he calls fire without the rod, he's afraid of injuring or killing himself.

[PainRack]

He's been getting better; and the fireball was a specific spell he's been working on for some time, not a spur of the moment magic. And the blasting rod just aids in focusing the magic; he can use magic without it; just not as safely. When in Death Masks he calls fire without the rod, he's afraid of injuring or killing himself.

The use of air spells was enacted in the first three books without the use of his staff before.
The danger must be related to magnitude. Note that in Grave Peril, he was able to fend off two vampires without the use of any foci whatsoever.

[PainRack]

http://www.jim-butcher.com/books/dresden/restoration/
Apparently, Dresden was more....... easily tapped out in his early days. A correlation between training and an increase in power? Or Dresden powers before he got a maybe boost from Lea, ate Kravos power, had a Fallen Angle giving him both conscious and subconscious help and Hellfire..... leading up to Uriel and Soulfire?
Or how unskilled he was at even thaumaturgy , leading to his exhaustion?

Also, apparently enchanting a ring to shine light/love is a relatively easy charm, compared to enchanting his duster or a broomstick. Or for that matter, the Staff and blasting rod.

[Alyrium Denryle]

http://www.jim-butcher.com/books/dresden/restoration/
Apparently, Dresden was more....... easily tapped out in his early days. A correlation between training and an increase in power? Or Dresden powers before he got a maybe boost from Lea, ate Kravos power, had a Fallen Angle giving him both conscious and subconscious help and Hellfire..... leading up to Uriel and Soulfire?
Or how unskilled he was at even thaumaturgy , leading to his exhaustion?

Also, apparently enchanting a ring to shine light/love is a relatively easy charm, compared to enchanting his duster or a broomstick. Or for that matter, the Staff and blasting rod.

Well, the storyline takes place over the course of a decade or so. Prior to the books, he was trained in combat magic but probably did not use it as often or at such high intensity. Now he faces off against foes regularly who do their level best to kill him, and he has more to lose. It is like training for long distance running. He started with a lot of potential, a natural talent, but little practice and training. Then he started running proverbial marathons. He is trained, practiced, and now that he has people who are legitimately close to him like Michael, Molly, Thomas, Murphey, he has more to lose and can use the fear, anger, and moral outrage to his benefit. He uses them to feed his magic.

To say nothing of eating Kravos, getting power from his mom etc.

[PainRack]

Well, the storyline takes place over the course of a decade or so. Prior to the books, he was trained in combat magic but probably did not use it as often or at such high intensity. Now he faces off against foes regularly who do their level best to kill him, and he has more to lose. It is like training for long distance running. He started with a lot of potential, a natural talent, but little practice and training. Then he started running proverbial marathons. He is trained, practiced, and now that he has people who are legitimately close to him like Michael, Molly, Thomas, Murphey, he has more to lose and can use the fear, anger, and moral outrage to his benefit. He uses them to feed his magic.

To say nothing of eating Kravos, getting power from his mom etc.

There isn't an exact date, but given that Ragged Angel and Murphy still exists for Ortega to blackmail, it can't have been that far back in time. By Storm Front, Dresden endurance has increased to the extent multiple simple spells didn't leave him incapable of fighting the toad demon.

[The Dark]

Ramirez does use foci, anyway. In one of the books - "White Night," page 327 - Ramirez dons an armored gauntlet before going into a fight. "A glove made of heavy leather overlaid with slender steel plates, each inscribed with pictoglyphs that looked Aztec or Olmec or something." Also, Harry gets teased by Elaine for using "phallic" foci in the books. Elaine uses a short, thick thorn-like foci, an inscribed chain, and an ankle bracelet with charms on it as foci.

It may be that most wizards use various types of foci, and it's just that Harry favors the old-fashioned staff and blasting rod while most wizards prefer their foci to be more subtle and concealable.

Can't be most wizards since Luccio, Morgan, Ebezznar all have used staffs as foci before.

True, but they're also all older wizards. Luccio was born in the 1800s, Morgan's been a Warden for over a century, and the Blackstaff was causing earthquakes in 1812. It's possible that Harry's more "traditional" because of his training by DuMorne and the Blackstaff. It's also possible that most use staves, and Rodriguez and the Carpenters are the exception. We probably have insufficient evidence at this point to claim one way or the other.