The Salvation War: Pantheocide. Part Eighty One Up

[Ritterin Sophia]

Man, that was awesome Stuart. I was all like, "Yeah finally we get to blow some shit up", then Hell. Fuck.

One criticism though, I've never seen the M109 designated with a hyphen in it, not once can I remember seeing it as anything other than M109 (I know there's none in the manual) and all of the ones in US Inventory are A6 Paladins. I just thought I'd bring this up since you specifically made an effort to point out that those specific Bradleys were Alpha Seven AFVs and the Abrams were Alpha Three. I might be wrong though, and the US decided to procure some other types of M109 like the KAWEST or started new lines with older equipment.

[Stuart]

One criticism though, I've never seen the M109 designated with a hyphen in it, not once can I remember seeing it as anything other than M109 (I know there's none in the manual) and all of the ones in US Inventory are A6 Paladins. I just thought I'd bring this up since you specifically made an effort to point out that those specific Bradleys were Alpha Seven AFVs and the Abrams were Alpha Three. I might be wrong though, and the US decided to procure some other types of M109 like the KAWEST or started new lines with older equipment.

The hyphen was just a typo; back in the 1980s there was a vogue for sticking a hyphen in there and sometimes it creeps up on me. As to variant, it could be any of the M109s, some of the older variants are still in storage and they're quite likely to find their way into rear-area uses like this. They were probably loaded with flechette rounds or something similar.

[Darth Ruinus]

Maybe it's his standard escape point that he always uses when fleeing from Earth. Also recall that in the previous chapter, the whore of Babylon had been instructed to flee to a point that Michael had specified. Perhaps this is the point.

No, I mean why is there blood (human and angel blood apparently?) there, and why is the ground chewed up? I'm probably making something out of nothing (It is Hell after all) but blood on the ground for no good reason seems odd to me, especially since it was specifically mentioned.

[Baughn]

If it's the same escape point they always use, and I remember correctly, then the Beast will have been through there while wounded.

That would produce a fair number of blood spots.

However, if they're making that mistake - well, we could stick some recorders there.

[Jamesfirecat]

All this talk about blood spots does sort of raise the question, what color did/does Fluffy Bleed? Because while it could be red, there's also no particular reason why it couldn't be neon pink or whatever.

But I do think that most likely that red and white/silvery blood is there because Fluffy and his rider traveled there as they escaped, after all it doesn't make much sense for Micheal to have given them directions on where to portal to and then be all upset when they suddenly puff into being in the middle of his garden, if he had told them that they HAD TO come straight ot his garden if things got dicey....

[Blayne]

Greetings all:

In an earlier response, some mention was made of who was going to lead the Thunder Run. I guess we know who it is now. Before, I read this new installment, I would have guessed the leader to be Patton, Guderian or Zhukov...
Excellent work, I say.....

Mike Garrity

Too much bad blood between the Russians and the Germans for it to be viable to bring up Gudarian, Zhukov is a much better army commander then a corps commander, Patton may have been a good bet.

[Teebs]

Too much bad blood between the Russians and the Germans for it to be viable to bring up Gudarian, Zhukov is a much better army commander then a corps commander, Patton may have been a good bet.

Not that a modern day military is going to want to put a second world war commander in charge of any major mission using modern technology...

[Darth Wong]

It would indeed be convenient if the enemy doesn't realize they've been followed to their midway point, and keep using it.

[Darth Ruinus]

Gah! Sorry SCRawl, but I completely missed the point you were making. IF that is their designated retreating point then it could be great if we could monitor the area, though we probably wouldn't be able to put the equipment necessary to track portal signals in any location that would not be visible (the equipment is bulky is it not?*) we could set up an ambush and attempt to capture prisoners.

*Sorry for all the questions.

[Sea Skimmer]

They might get a chance to nab the very next angle to pass by, but otherwise the angles are going to notice the ground is now torn up by a whole bunch of tank treads.

[Darth Ruinus]

They might get a chance to nab the very next angle to pass by, but otherwise the angles are going to notice the ground is now torn up by a whole bunch of tank treads.

Not knowing much about tank threads, could it be possible for them to cover up their tracks? The ground is already "chewed up" so might it be possible for them to remove the tank tracks, giving the illusion that no one has been there?

[Sea Skimmer]

Well it could be possible, it’d depend on just how much they chewed things up and how chewed up the ground already was, but covering up after dozens of tanks drove around… when you don’t know if an angle will appear at any moment would not be easy. Trouble also is they don’t have any angle blood to go pour around afterwards to blend over the filled in ruts though I’m sure a facsimile could be mixed up given a bit of time.

[UnderAGreySky]

A key group were evacuated, but they then sacrificed themselves. They refused to accept bunker protection after condemning so many of their own citizens to death, this showing great nobility of spirit. Also dodging the shitstorm of awkward questions that are likely to have to answer.

Aren't they going to hell anyway? There won't be much question-dodging, though they are now undoubtedly heroes...

[Pelranius]

A key group were evacuated, but they then sacrificed themselves. They refused to accept bunker protection after condemning so many of their own citizens to death, this showing great nobility of spirit. Also dodging the shitstorm of awkward questions that are likely to have to answer.

Aren't they going to hell anyway? There won't be much question-dodging, though they are now undoubtedly heroes...

They should, unless one of the other powers that be snatched them. As for people going to hell, it seems applicable in every case except for Uriel's victims (that question sounds like another point coming up later).

[Blayne]

It would indeed be convenient if the enemy doesn't realize they've been followed to their midway point, and keep using it.

Convenient yes, likely to happen? Probably not, if Michael-lan is smart enough to use a midway point then he is also smart enough to change the midway area every X number of times maximum and so far I'ld figure Stuart has written heaven's defence effort as led by Michael to be considerably smarter then Hell's.

[Simon_Jester]

I'm surprised nobody mentioned the question I think is really interesting about Michael using Hell as a staging area and waypoint:

Stuart said that opening portals from Heaven to Hell is difficult and requires someone operating from both ends. If that's true, then who's opening the portals from the Hell side? And, more to the point, can we find them and get the coordinates from them?

Too much bad blood between the Russians and the Germans for it to be viable to bring up Gudarian, Zhukov is a much better army commander then a corps commander, Patton may have been a good bet.

Not that a modern day military is going to want to put a second world war commander in charge of any major mission using modern technology...

Yeah. Some of the better ones might be able to train up to modern standards (the way that physicists who were active twenty or thirty years ago might be able to catch up with changes in the state of the art). But over relevant time scales they'd never be able to get used to changes in doctrine. If nothing else, as I understand it, all WWII armies were more top-down oriented tactically, and the fact that communication gear was heavy and had to be centralized had a big effect on the doctrine.

[Pelranius]

I'm surprised nobody mentioned the question I think is really interesting about Michael using Hell as a staging area and waypoint:

Stuart said that opening portals from Heaven to Hell is difficult and requires someone operating from both ends. If that's true, then who's opening the portals from the Hell side? And, more to the point, can we find them and get the coordinates from them?

Its possible that there could be more way stops than just Hell along Michael's little Earth to Heaven route.

Yeah. Some of the better ones might be able to train up to modern standards (the way that physicists who were active twenty or thirty years ago might be able to catch up with changes in the state of the art). But over relevant time scales they'd never be able to get used to changes in doctrine. If nothing else, as I understand it, all WWII armies were more top-down oriented tactically, and the fact that communication gear was heavy and had to be centralized had a big effect on the doctrine.

The problem with putting Rommel or Zhukov in charge is that they'd continuously be playing catch up to modern doctrine since doctrine is continuously evolving, especially during warfare. They possibly could start off teaching at a military academy or working on a staff/think tank but it'll still be a while before they figure everything out. And all things equal, putting a WWII officer into a modern unit headquarters is still going to be problematic since they won't have the same sort of institutional and personal network knowledge that a modern person of similar position would have.

[Darth Yan]

I think Lemy will learn of michael's treachery, try to warn yawheh, get ignored, flee, and then join the humans, giving them a direct portal to heaven.

[Stuart]

I'm surprised nobody mentioned the question I think is really interesting about Michael using Hell as a staging area and waypoint: Stuart said that opening portals from Heaven to Hell is difficult and requires someone operating from both ends. If that's true, then who's opening the portals from the Hell side? And, more to the point, can we find them and get the coordinates from them?

Nobody; Michael's route is Target on Earth -> Staging point in Hell -> Staging point on Earth -> Heaven

Too much bad blood between the Russians and the Germans for it to be viable to bring up Gudarian, Zhukov is a much better army commander then a corps commander, Patton may have been a good bet.

Not that a modern day military is going to want to put a second world war commander in charge of any major mission using modern technology...Yeah. Some of the better ones might be able to train up to modern standards (the way that physicists who were active twenty or thirty years ago might be able to catch up with changes in the state of the art). But over relevant time scales they'd never be able to get used to changes in doctrine. If nothing else, as I understand it, all WWII armies were more top-down oriented tactically, and the fact that communication gear was heavy and had to be centralized had a big effect on the doctrine.

In some ways, going back in time to famous commanders of WW2 is making a small-scale version of th cataclysmic mistake the daemons made in their campaign. Armies today are very different animals from those that existed in WW2. They fight differently and have massively more firepower. One very simple example; in WW2 infantry units were pretty much helpless against tanks unless they were supported by other arms. Today they have a capable integral anti-tank ability. Precision guided munitions are another example; today we talk about targets per sortie rather than sorties per target. Then there's the whole impact of the communications and command revolutions.

Also, as pointed out, I want to keep the number of the famous dead who appear in the story reduced to the absolute minimum. Frankly, having legions of dead generals appearing to take over operations is just plain cheesy.

[Heatherine]

Also, as pointed out, I want to keep the number of the famous dead who appear in the story reduced to the absolute minimum. Frankly, having legions of dead generals appearing to take over operations is just plain cheesy.

Hehe, I think it would be sort of funny, though! ^^

Maybe I am just too silly.

[Shroom Man 777]

And, geeze, plenty stupid too. Zhukov's most well-remembered tactical experience would be like his experiences in spending half a century in molten lava!


I like this new chapter. HOOTERS! And fucking Micheal! Though I kind of found it odd that Hooters called him Micheal-Lan. Do we know Heavenly naming conventions? I like Micheal's use of staging grounds. He knows humans are able to make their own portals, so he's not stupid.

I like the Obama part too. That was far better than having him and his suits talking about casualties in a board room. And, yeah, going out in public and sympathizing with the meek seems to be his thing too. And, zing. That's good, centering on his character and the realities he has to face in-person outside of the often-seen meetings.

[Darth Yan]

i loved how he pwned rush limbuagh

[Blayne]

I should point out that modern Russian military thinking, doctrine and force organization isn't that different from 1946 organization (according to the Leavensworth papers on the Soviet Operation August Storm) and that in theory Zhukov could in theory be brought up to speed fairly quickly.

What are the humans fighting as? Essentially russian doctrine of massive mechanized mobile firepower, take out the infantry aspect and you got the August Storm. Of course they don't need Zhukov for this as modern Russian generals are perfectly aware of how to fight.

[Junghalli]

That last chapter was very satisfying. It was very nice seeing the enemy not blowing their entire plan through incomprehension of the fact humans can track portals or something lame like that.

[Simon_Jester]

Nobody; Michael's route is Target on Earth -> Staging point in Hell -> Staging point on Earth -> Heaven

Oh. Oops. Sorry.

So nobody else thought to ask the question for good reasons...

In some ways, going back in time to famous commanders of WW2 is making a small-scale version of th cataclysmic mistake the daemons made in their campaign. Armies today are very different animals from those that existed in WW2. They fight differently and have massively more firepower. One very simple example; in WW2 infantry units were pretty much helpless against tanks unless they were supported by other arms. Today they have a capable integral anti-tank ability. Precision guided munitions are another example; today we talk about targets per sortie rather than sorties per target. Then there's the whole impact of the communications and command revolutions.

Some of this could be overcome quickly; I don't think it would take someone smart all that long to figure out the implications of being able to do with one bomber what once required a hundred. Others would be vastly more difficult (especially the communications, command, and staff issues). I suspect without exceptional evidence that that would be the sticking point: commanders used to having a relatively skeletal communication network for the whole army not knowing how to deal with something more full-bodied.

Also, as pointed out, I want to keep the number of the famous dead who appear in the story reduced to the absolute minimum. Frankly, having legions of dead generals appearing to take over operations is just plain cheesy.

Reasonable, agreed.

I like this new chapter. HOOTERS! And fucking Micheal! Though I kind of found it odd that Hooters called him Micheal-Lan. Do we know Heavenly naming conventions? I like Micheal's use of staging grounds. He knows humans are able to make their own portals, so he's not stupid.

It may be like the way that we talk about "Osama bin Laden" despite the fact that "bin" practically translates into English as "this is my last name;" the closest literal equivalent is the "son" in names like "Anderson" and "Stevenson." So if all the people who know Michael talk about him as "Michael-lan," then people are going to start calling him that. Makes sense to me.

It's also a useful disambiguation, because there are a LOT of real people named "Michael," but very few named "lan."