Racism in Australia

[weemadando]

OK, the recent killing of Nitin Garg has been played up in India as a racist attack. And while I'm more than willing to concede that there are a vast majority of Australians are insular racist cunts who'd be happy to see the White Australia policy return (or alternately, in the case of many migrant groups, who think that every other migrant group is responsible for all the problems in Australia and that they're the only ones who have done anything good), I think that calling every attack on someone of Indian origin a race based crime is a fallacy.

For starters - Mr Garg was walking through a park in Footscray at night, alone. I wouldn't walk through a park in Footscray (or indeed nearly any suburb) at night with anything less than a police escort. Even in parks in relatively peaceful Tasmania (City Park, Heritage Forest and Princes Square in Launceston, and [whatever that park between the bus mall and Salamanca is] in Hobart) I've been the victim of actual or attempted assaults.

Screaming racism is only forcing Victoria Police to cover their arse, and is not going to result in anything good coming of it. Hell, I was lucky enough to be downtown last year when the protests by the international students were on. It's a good thing to see so many of them carrying signs promoting vigilantism or violence towards anglo-saxon folks, because clearly that's the correct response to this kind of situation.

Politician's are unwilling to admit that racism exists, either because it might offend their racist electorate (who often don't consider themselves racist, they just think that the things that they say and do are normal) or out themselves as being racists. Racism is alive, rampant and growing in Australia - amongst all races, not just among the anglo-saxon part. And until every section of the community is willing to stand up and admit that much then we aren't going anywhere.

[Darth Wong]

I'm quite frankly tired of white people complaining that minorities are just as racist because they're saying bad things about the majority. It's like saying that victims of bullies are just as bad as bullies because they hate the bullies back.

In a country where anglo-saxons have all the power, it is their racism which is the real problem.

[tim31]

I take it someone has already posted the recent KFC ad that stirred the pot a bit.

I don't think it was intentionally racist, just poorly thought out. It only happens all the friggin' time in advertising. The backlash was pretty good though; like the ghost of Sol Trujillo come back to haunt us.

[weemadando]

I'm quite frankly tired of white people complaining that minorities are just as racist because they're saying bad things about the majority. It's like saying that victims of bullies are just as bad as bullies because they hate the bullies back.

In a country where anglo-saxons have all the power, it is their racism which is the real problem.

Oh fuck no. White's in Australia are racist as all hell for the most part. It's just absurd to me because in both my personal life and professional life I have a fairly even spread of ethnicities around me. And each and every single group is as obnoxiously and casually racist as the next. I don't know if this is part of Australian culture or just a by-product of multiculturalism in the short term (as in until people finally get used to the fact that this isn't a fucking "White Australia").

However, do I think that there is institutionalised racism in Victoria Police? No. They're just saying that they have no evidence of any motive for this latest attack. This is being interpreted by the Indian as meaning that Victoria police are trying to cover up racism.

REally, this is just Australia finally getting the flip side of our usual rantings when some dumb bitch tries to smuggle 5 kilos of dope in her luggage, or steal a barmat, or scream and rant against a monarch to security guards at an airport. All of our whiteous righteous indignation at "how dare those silly coloured folk in their stupid folksy clothes and their dumb language arrest a STRAYAN!" is now being viewed from the other side. The big difference though, is that all of those STRAYANS were guilty of a crime, not the victims of one.

And DW - I mention racism by all as a factor, because in many cases the violence has not been by Anglo against Indian, it's been by one or more of Middle Eastern, African, Islander, Eastern European, Asian, Indian and Anglo against Indian. Or really against anyone else - racism has been as much a factor as alcoholism, casual violence and a growing gang/knife culture (like the UK) in many of these assaults like the killing of a Canadian backpacker by Pacific Islanders and the killing of an Anglo-Australian by a Thai gang, both of which happened in Melbourne in the past year. Those two are just off the top of my head - I can vaguely recall instances of killings or serious assaults against and by many other groups.

Australia has a problem that's endemic. Racism may be a symptom or a cause, but damned if it isn't a big part of the problem.

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

The Indians in general get rather excited when they construe something as an attack on their race. A combination of inferiority complex, and some misguided self-delusion of themselves as a great race/country, leads to this.

[thejester]

The general upsurge in violent crime and knife crime in particular in Melbourne has been well documented and probably is going to be the central issue in this year's state election. The police have publicly stated that they believe some of the attacks have been racially motivated, but not enough to suggest a trend. In and of itself racism and the other alleged motivation, that Indian students are 'soft targets', aren't convincing explanations given that there hasn't been a similar surge in attacks on Asian students.

Ultimately the bigger question being asked here is not about racism, or safety on our streets, but the circumstances that put these students here in the first place. The tertiary education system basically relies on the money coming in from foreign students now, but no serious effort has been put in to create a support system for these guys. If you've got the money to get yourself into a college/halls, then great, but a lot don't and they end up living 6-8 (or more) in three bedroom houses in dodgy suburbs like Footscray. As Ando said, the fact this guy was walking through a park in Footscray at night alone suggests he's incredibly wet behind the ears. Not sure I'd be as hysterical as to suggest I'd never walk anywhere in Melbourne at night alone, but in the areas these guys are living there's no way I'd be doing it.

As it is the entire system is fairly odious, but if this forces governments and universities to go 'shit, we need to reform this' then the situation should get better.

[weemadando]

The general upsurge in violent crime and knife crime in particular in Melbourne has been well documented and probably is going to be the central issue in this year's state election. The police have publicly stated that they believe some of the attacks have been racially motivated, but not enough to suggest a trend. In and of itself racism and the other alleged motivation, that Indian students are 'soft targets', aren't convincing explanations given that there hasn't been a similar surge in attacks on Asian students.

I'd say that there's the impression out there that there has been a similar upswing in assaults and that the Indian cases are now getting media attention and are thus higher visibility. Whether or not statistics bear this out I have no idea.

Ultimately the bigger question being asked here is not about racism, or safety on our streets, but the circumstances that put these students here in the first place. The tertiary education system basically relies on the money coming in from foreign students now, but no serious effort has been put in to create a support system for these guys. If you've got the money to get yourself into a college/halls, then great, but a lot don't and they end up living 6-8 (or more) in three bedroom houses in dodgy suburbs like Footscray.

Our tertiary education system is so reliant on international student dollars that lecturers and tutors I am acquainted with regularly tell of scenarios where they are instructed to pass, or give good grades to students who have not submitted legible or intelligible work (and sometimes none at all), simply because they are full fee paying and thus a big cash cow. We've already massively devalued tertiary education and are now going to turn our universities into degree factories. And because this money is so important and universities are hooked on it, they want to bring in more and more and more students. I've personally been in housing situations where I had to report housemate's because they were sleeping 4-6 EXTRA per room (and costing $50 A DAY in power bills which they demanded I pay my 1/5th share of) and these cases are sadly not an insignificant minority - nor are they limited to any one ethnic group. There will always be the slumlords and shitty cash in hand job merchants out there to prey on these people, and there needs to be better supervision (a poor word, but the best I can come up with) and assistance for those who may be in these situations.

As Ando said, the fact this guy was walking through a park in Footscray at night alone suggests he's incredibly wet behind the ears. Not sure I'd be as hysterical as to suggest I'd never walk anywhere in Melbourne at night alone, but in the areas these guys are living there's no way I'd be doing it.

To be fair I said walk through a park alone at night. I'd probably do that out in Surrey Hills where I live - and maybe a few others, but for the most part, that's just a no-no everywhere I've lived. Poor lighting, park benches and public toilets tend to be the perfect storm for trouble.

As it is the entire system is fairly odious, but if this forces governments and universities to go 'shit, we need to reform this' then the situation should get better.

It got to the point while I was at university, that the international students who I became friends with during my first year or two, by the end of my time there were thoroughly sick of the "new waves" of students who hadn't learnt english and refused to take part in all of the other aspects of university life. I seem to recall that in one year UTas increased it's intake by about 33% all of which was from international students.

This should give people an idea of the scale of this industry as well as why the institutions are so hesitant to make any changes that might risk their income.

[Singular Intellect]

I'm quite frankly tired of white people complaining that minorities are just as racist because they're saying bad things about the majority.

I'd say that minorities are just as racist because they're no less flawed than any other group, even if one of those groups happens to be the majority through no fault of their own.

[Darth Wong]

I'm quite frankly tired of white people complaining that minorities are just as racist because they're saying bad things about the majority.

I'd say that minorities are just as racist because they're no less flawed than any other group, even if one of those groups happens to be the majority through no fault of their own.

And I'd say that racist grousing about another race is nowhere near as bad as racially motivated discrimination which harms the objective situation of another race.

[Singular Intellect]

And I'd say that racist grousing about another race is nowhere near as bad as racially motivated discrimination which harms the objective situation of another race.

No argument there, but let's face it, unless you're going to actually argue a particular ethnic group is more racist than another, you can't expect someone of the majority ethnic group to go around apologizing for being the majority ethnic group.

[Serafine666]

And I'd say that racist grousing about another race is nowhere near as bad as racially motivated discrimination which harms the objective situation of another race.

Naturally, there are different levels of acting upon racism. A racist who sits in his house grumbling about "niggers" isn't doing the same level of harm as a racist who goes around looking for "niggers" with a baseball bat or kicks a black person out of their job to give it to a white person. But that is really beside the point anymore because the fact of the matter is that most racial groups are now in a position where they can do the same level of harm through their racism as the majority can. The reason you have instances where the majority gets whiny about racism on the part of visible minorities is that the racism of those visible minorities is discounted or dismissed, often for doing no less harm than would earn a majority racist infuriated condemnation. The "educated" opinion in far too many university "Black Studies" or "Latino Studies" programs (at least in the United States) is that it's not possible for a minority to be a racist because the majority supposedly has all the power.

It's at least as legitimate for a white person to be irritated at minority racism as it is for a member of said visible minority to be irritated at being denigrated as "acting white" or called "oreo"... or to quote one of your own examples, Mike, getting accused of "being yellow on the outside, and white on the inside." That such sentiments are not acted upon doesn't diminish their harmful nature because people are not really good at keeping their biases safely separated from their actions.

[defanatic]

I think racism is pretty rampant in Australia, in both positive and negative ways.

For instance, I have a bunch of friends who believe really awful things about aboriginal Australians.

But the government also likes to give them money and grants and things.

So both positive and negative.

[Xon]

We've already massively devalued tertiary education and are now going to turn our universities into degree factories. And because this money is so important and universities are hooked on it, they want to bring in more and more and more students.

I'm furious over this, my CompSci degree which I'm in the last few semesters in getting is bordering on practically worthless now. It has a TER requirement of 70 for the Curtin Univercity Computer Science course, that is the freaking entry requirement for the university.

[Stark]

When I did postgrad IT at what used to be a respectable uni in Brisbane, much of the course was taken from second and third year units. The class was 70% international students with degrees in other fields who had little to no knowledge of IT.

[thejester]

We've already massively devalued tertiary education and are now going to turn our universities into degree factories. And because this money is so important and universities are hooked on it, they want to bring in more and more and more students.

I'm furious over this, my CompSci degree which I'm in the last few semesters in getting is bordering on practically worthless now. It has a TER requirement of 70 for the Curtin Univercity Computer Science course, that is the freaking entry requirement for the university.

I'm 90% sure that the indicative TER reflects the popularity of the course, not any inherit academic ability for it. On top of that, why are you surprised? It's a three year course, .

[adam_grif]

In my experience, racist attitudes are not so much to do with people's ethnicity as it is to do with their culture. I see Asians getting shit all the time for not speaking English, but these same people who bash on them have close friends who are Asian, but have been here for 2 or 3 generations. I've seen Asians complaining about Asian immigration. They don't seem to care what color skin you have, so long as you drink beer, eat meat and speak fluent, unaccented (by that I mean non-foreign accents, I'm aware that everybody has an accent) English.

But these are just the people I know, and I'm aware that I can't expect to extend this generalization to every person in Australia.

[adam_grif]

We've already massively devalued tertiary education and are now going to turn our universities into degree factories. And because this money is so important and universities are hooked on it, they want to bring in more and more and more students.

I'm furious over this, my CompSci degree which I'm in the last few semesters in getting is bordering on practically worthless now. It has a TER requirement of 70 for the Curtin Univercity Computer Science course, that is the freaking entry requirement for the university.

I have a friend who was let into UTAS without completing Year 12.

Dude is extremely smart though.

TER is a joke anyway, I meet the entrance requirements for every subject except direct-law (where you skip the first year) and medicine (because I didn't do the necessary prerequisites), and I only made a real effort in my Writing course. I'm not even approaching "smart", that's just what you get if you pay attention, hand in your work on time, and study for your exams. Oh, and the computing entrance requirement at UTAS is 65, or was when I signed up for it.

[UnderAGreySky]

Time for the resident - well, at least resident on the forum - Indian to chime in with a few thoughts on this topic.

First, specific to what people have posted so far:

weemadando - I agree with everything you've said, including the jibe at those asking for vigilantism. Not the smartest of moves on part of the Indians there.

I mention racism by all as a factor, because in many cases the violence has not been by Anglo against Indian, it's been by one or more of Middle Eastern, African, Islander, Eastern European, Asian, Indian and Anglo against Indian.

I've heard this before. Is there any official evidence or speculation that the attacks on Indians have been by immigrants (first or second generation) of other nationalities/cultures? Not that I think it is unlikely, but it is an interesting aspect to the case.

The Indians in general get rather excited when they construe something as an attack on their race. A combination of inferiority complex, and some misguided self-delusion of themselves as a great race/country, leads to this.

A whole lot of Indians are quite sensible about it. Unfortunately, even if 1% of those back home raise a ruckus, it is still 11 million people. This is not helped by the morons on 24 hour news networks (and we have a lot of them!) who are the kinds who would teach Glenn Beck a lesson or three in melodrama.

Psst: The great country bit is not a delusion

In and of itself racism and the other alleged motivation, that Indian students are 'soft targets', aren't convincing explanations given that there hasn't been a similar surge in attacks on Asian students.

By "Asian" do you mean East Asian?

Ultimately the bigger question being asked here is not about racism, or safety on our streets, but the circumstances that put these students here in the first place. The tertiary education system basically relies on the money coming in from foreign students now, but no serious effort has been put in to create a support system for these guys. If you've got the money to get yourself into a college/halls, then great, but a lot don't and they end up living 6-8 (or more) in three bedroom houses in dodgy suburbs like Footscray. As Ando said, the fact this guy was walking through a park in Footscray at night alone suggests he's incredibly wet behind the ears. Not sure I'd be as hysterical as to suggest I'd never walk anywhere in Melbourne at night alone, but in the areas these guys are living there's no way I'd be doing it.

Now this, is a major bugbear of mine. It's not just in Oz, but even here in the UK, universities have begun admitting a large number of non UK/EU students as they charge them four times the tuition of UK and European Economic Area residents. This has come, in my opinion at the cost of lowering the quality of students[1] AND allowing the formation of large clusters of foreign students of one country in the same area. The latter is not an issue just from safety point of view, but IMO the one of the two major reasons[2] for doing a post-graduate course outside your country is to gain exposure to various different cultures.

It got to the point while I was at university, that the international students who I became friends with during my first year or two, by the end of my time there were thoroughly sick of the "new waves" of students who hadn't learnt english and refused to take part in all of the other aspects of university life.

Heck, I did a one-year Masters course and *I* was sick of those kinda people. Well, at least amongst the Indians who would group together, whether at the dance floor, the badminton courts or the watering holes. What's worse is most Indians have a rather decent command over English[3], at least from the get-your-point-across level. This is unlike the Chinese, French or Spaniards I knew on campus. So language is not an excuse. Unfortunately, this happens *within* Indian communities too. I've heard people talk in Hindi in the presence of Tamil Indians and vice versa the latter chatter away in Tamil in front of those who cannot understand it. It's rudeness along with insensitivity.

-----

Now for my views:

The attacks - and there have been a dozen in the past year at least[4] - look to be racially motivated. The thing is, the numbers have been far greater than anywhere else where Indian students go. Australia, I think, gets less students than Britain does, and way less than the US. But I haven't heard of attacks on Indian students here at all (and there are a lot more Pakistanis here ) and in the US there have been a couple of incidents, but some of them turned out to be "blue on blue" (brown on brown?).

Our media has certainly not helped, but just as I have been imploring all those I can that we cannot just paint all Aussies with the same brush; likewise I hope Aussies understand that a country of one billion cannot be judged by a few crappy news anchors and needlessly sensationalist headlines in tabloids on this side of the world.

----------------

Footnotes:

[1] I can appreciate the delicious irony of this - if the norms had been stricter, I may not have gotten the chance to do my course!

[2] The other is access to both technology and jobs. Pay, these days is not a motivator because the standard of living is equalising fast. I know lots of people who have or are planning to return; unlike the old days where the dream was to settle abroad.

[3] Most Indians do not find it hard to get at least a 7 in the IELTS. In fact, I have often wondered how quite a few of the non Indians and non-native English speakers actually managed to pass the test. You need a 6.5 to get admitted to my university.

[4] This link is from August and talks of 12 attacks, not counting the recent murder.

[Lusankya]

Australia, I think, gets less students than Britain does, and way less than the US.

Australia may have less foreign students than the US and Britain, but they still make up about 20% of the student population.

Taking a look at Victoria's crime statistics, there were 38,688 assaults reported to the police in Victoria over 2008/2009. About 29,000 of them were non-family related incidents. If we take the Indian government's claim that there are about 90,000 Indian foreign students in Australia (About 0.4% of the population), and also assume that Melbourne has an average proportion of Indian students, then we would expect to see about about 0.4% of the assaults to be assaults on Indian students, assuming that Indian students have an average chance of being assaulted. That makes about 100 assauts on Indian students in Melbourne every year.*

So with that in mind, does the fact that 12 incidents in both Sydney and Melbourne were highly publicised necessarily indicate that violent crime against Indians is on the rise, or does it simply mean that media coverage of these attacks is more intense?

*Crime rates have increased in Melbourne over the last few years.

What's worse is most Indians have a rather decent command over English[3], at least from the get-your-point-across level. This is unlike the Chinese, French or Spaniards I knew on campus.

I always actually found the Indian students harder to understand than the Asian students (in Australia, Asia is often just East and South East Asia, while India is the subcontinent, because we learn all our geography from the cricket commentators). It's not that the Indian students had a lesser grasp of English, but Indian accents are damned impossible to understand. Some of them anyway. There seem to be two types: the ones with the almost British accent, and then the ones where you know they're speaking English, but you just can't recognise any of the words.

[mr friendly guy]

another attack on an Indian

An Indian man is in a serious condition in hospital after being set on fire in the street in Melbourne early this morning.

Jaspreet Singh, 29, was attacked in Essendon in Melbourne's north-west shortly before 2.00am (AEDT).

He had just come home from a dinner party with his wife and went to park his car when four men poured fluid over him and set him alight.

He is being treated for burns to 15 per cent of his body.

Police say the man is of Indian origin but they do not know whether he is an Australian citizen.

Police do not know why he was targeted, but they do not think the attack was racially motivated.

Friends say the man is living in the city on a spouse visa.

It has been a week since 21-year-old Indian man Nitin Garg was stabbed to death on his way to work in West Footscray.

The murder has sparked outrage in India and among Indians in Melbourne, who say racist attacks are on the rise.

Cartoon 'hysteria'

Today the editor of an Indian newspaper said Australia was reacting hysterically to a cartoon depicting an Australian police officer as a member of the Ku Klux Klan .

The cartoon shows a person in a Ku Klux Klan hood wearing a police badge, with a caption that reads: "We are yet to ascertain the nature of the crime".

The editor of the Mail Today newspaper, Bharat Bhushan, has defended his decision to publish the controversial cartoon.

Mr Bhushan has also defended the paper's cartoonist, R Prasad, who drew the piece in response to attacks on young Indian men in Melbourne.

"What he does is he exaggerates things," Mr Bhushan said.

"He forces people to look at a particular point of view, which we had thought in a mature society like Australia would lead to introspection, rather it has led to hysteria."

Deputy Prime Minister Julia Gillard has expressed outrage at the cartoon's Ku Klux Klan reference.

"Any suggestion of that kind is deeply, deeply offensive to the police officers involved and I would absolutely condemn the making of a comment like that," Ms Gillard said.

"[The police] have indeed worked in close collaboration with representatives of the Indian community as they've gone about this step up in policing."

And the cartoon in question

[mr friendly guy]

Just to comment, I found the cartoon hilarious despite myself.

Moreover Australian media publishes cartoons which can easily be seen as offensive to some other country. For example Lusankanya posted a cartoon in the political cartoon thread which showed Australia selling stuff to China, and a journalist asking Rudd "Aren't we selling our soul to the devil", to which Rudd replied "don't be ridiculous, we won't get this much for our soul". Thus Australia can't really take much of the moral high ground just because an Indian newspaper publishes a satirical cartoon, especially when racists do exist in Australia and not in small numbers or in low places. Take a look at the Cronulla riots, those bogans descending on Manly during Australia day and several members of the Liberal party.

But I do have confidence our police would be able to put down racist wankers who challenge them. Just like they did to this raving maniac.

[weemadando]

I find that cartoon hilarious because it's not the police are racist, it's that they've been hamstrung by incompetent leadership and governance for years. A more apt cartoon would have Clouseau making the statement while there's a bunch more street violence happening in the background. But I suppose that isn't biting enough satire.

As for random acts of violence - who wants to bet on where this years Australia day bit of race rioting will occur? Sydney seems to be played out, so I'm going to go with Western/Northern suburbs of Melbourne...

[UnderAGreySky]

I kinda find the cartoon in bad taste; and the provocative intentions of the cartoonist are plain to see. Most Indians have not heard of the Klu Klux Klan and will not be able to make the connection of the white hood and gown. Secondly, I've never heard of the "Mail Today". Wonder there this publication circulates, but I can't be arsed to google

That said, it is just a cartoon, and not a particularly intelligent one. A bit disappointing for me, we've always had some fine cartoonists that use subtle humour to get their point across.

On the other hand this latest incident... might just be the final nail in the coffin for Indian applicants to Australia. This is the time of the year when students are finalising applications, I suspect a large number will now refrain from applying this year. I wonder if NZ will benefit from that, though.

[Chris OFarrell]

Its still almost funny at how in denial the Victorian Government and Police Force are though.

Irrespective of if there might actually be a problem, they refuse to even admit the POSSIBILITY.

The NSW Police for example have several major strike forces which concentrate resources on problem areas in terms of racial issues, because they do actually exist. I mean we're talking the Middle East major crimes unit, Asian major crimes unit, and they don't just focus on big issues like drug cartels and what not, they would also be called upon in situations like this, with the personnel and resources to directly attack the problem.

Victoria apparently doesn't have anything like that. Although my faith in the Victorian police was never very high, even before they railroaded Stofsk in a complete travesty of real policing work anyway. But even if there isn't a major problem, statistically, it really looks like they are putting their fingers in their ears and shouting THERE IS NO PROBLEM...then someone gets set on fire. I mean they COULD have taken some actions that would have had positive PR value and real security value, like extending free public transport to all international students like domestic students have, but that would cost money, so no way in hell...

I mean when I was at University, a university which has a strong push on bringing in more and more foreign students - though at least they have refused to drop standards to get them in like more then a few have- I found most of the Indian students I studied with to be great people. Dito the Chinese students, all of them spoke reasonable English, most spoke very good English, all of them worked hard. But there were a few exceptions, who we all heard got a programming assignment and then promptly went on the web to hire someone to do it for them, and promptly got caught at it, and tried to play the race card, they are paying $$$ and deserve to not be treated like this, bla bla bla.

The thing was though, the people who held them in probably the MOST contempt were 'their own people' in the majority, who wasn't nothing to do with them. And the vast majority of the people from China and India DID tend to cluster, but it was a social thing, and I never felt *excluded* from them, they'd happily ask me to sit with them at the bar or food hall, as much as in the classroom.

[Chris OFarrell]

I find that cartoon hilarious because it's not the police are racist, it's that they've been hamstrung by incompetent leadership and governance for years. A more apt cartoon would have Clouseau making the statement while there's a bunch more street violence happening in the background. But I suppose that isn't biting enough satire.

As for random acts of violence - who wants to bet on where this years Australia day bit of race rioting will occur? Sydney seems to be played out, so I'm going to go with Western/Northern suburbs of Melbourne...

Depends how much VB is in the local area...

And if there is a local population of a convenient ethnic group like in Lakemba to decalre a 'Jhiad' right back, and load up on the Glocks, knifes and machetes...