Activist boat 'sliced in two' by Japanese whalers

[Sea Skimmer]

Uh, are you even reading what I'm replying to? The idea that they would deliberately destroy a 2.5 million dollar boat for nebulous 'drama' reasons is totally absurd.

Yeah I am reading it, have you ever seen the show? These people risk sinking their main ship and KILLING EVERYONE onboard all the fucking time. Destroying a boat they didn’t pay for is right up their ally. It wasn’t destroyed anyway; they lost a little chunk of bow. The only reason I think it might be intentional is because they are just too dumb to steer anyway. This was proven by putting a guy at the helm before who could not understand a compass. The whole fact that these people even exist and have not in fact all been killed or arrested yet is absurd enough.

I was mainly referring to my own views, but yeah - most Australians are ill-informed about the Japanese whaling industry. But then again, I think that whaling is really only the tip of hte iceberg. If Sea Shepherd really want to do something to sustain biodiversity in the oceans, why not start going after the mass-fishign fleets of the world who we know aren't sustainable (the oft-misquoted line being that by 2050 fisheries stocks will be at unrecoverable levels) but keep on pulling in massive catches and ridiculous levels of by-catch.

I’m with you on that. The minke whales the Japanese go after aren’t even that endangered anymore as they number somewhere between 300-750,000. On land we allow hunting of animals far less numerous, and often only because they are seen as pests like wolves.

[Erik von Nein]

Why is violence inherently wrong? War is after all an ugly thing, but it is not the ugliest thing.

Put a utilitarian spin on it. The suffering whales undergo as a part of this commercial whaling (they are after all of a level of intelligence on par with elephants or so... and elephant poachers get shot)far outweighs the utility gained by turning them into school lunches and pet food. For fucks sake the demand is not even present in japan to support whaling. The government does it to prevent unemployment (a miniscule amount of it) and as a point of national pride (in other words: Fuck you westerners). It is not justified. However there is no legitimate framework upon which to realistically put pressure on the japanese to stop.

Some level of violence and sabotage is the only way to reduce the moral evil that is whaling. The argument can be made, and it would be correct, that Sea Shepherd is bad at it but that is not the same as their actions being morally blameworthy.

Except their actions aren't reducing whaling, nor do they even care that they aren't doing a damned thing. It makes them feel better, and that's all they care about. Even worse it makes the whalers out to be victims of insane environmentalists groups, which can then be painted by less rational people to include any environmental organization. The head of Sea Sheppard even advises members to lie when convenient, among other things. These people are some of the worst you could possibly have on your side.

If there was any evidence their brand of insanity was doing anything other than saving an occasional whale there would be room for debate. Instead they just suck up time, money, and public relations good will.

[Uraniun235]

It seems that Sea Shepherd has cost the Canadian government a chunk of change...

The RV Farley Mowat was the flagship of the Sea Shepherd Conservation Society's fleet ...

As of September 2009, it is moored at Sydney Harbour in Nova Scotia awaiting auction by the Canadian Department of Fisheries and Oceans, following the vessel's seizure by the agency off the coast of Newfoundland in April 2008 and a subsequent failed sale.

...

On 27 February 2009, the Canadian Crown-in-Council announced that the Farley Mowat was being put up for sale to cover approximately CAD$500,000 in berthing fees accrued since the April 2008 seizure.[11] Subsequently, the Farley Mowat was reportedly sold for CAD$50,000, but the buyer did not complete the transaction and as of September 2009 the ship is still in the possession of the Canadian government and continues to accrue berthing fees.[10] Sea Shepherd later stated that the seizure of the ship had been expected, and in fact, encouraged. Therefore, it had been used in provocation, with the full intention to have the Canadian government end up with, in their opinion, a more or less worthless vessel.[12]

“I spent a week goading and daring Fisheries Minister Loyola Hearn into seizing the ship with announcements stating that ‘he did not have the guts’ to take our ship in international waters. It was the classic Br’er Rabbit strategy of please don’t throw me in the briar patch when all the time Br’er Rabbit wanted to actually be thrown into the briar patch,” [Watson] continued.

“So, we sent the ship in as the Tar Baby Farley and Loyola did what we expected him to do. He raided the ship and he got stuck with it. First they asked for $50,000 to bail the ship out although there were never any charges against the ship or owners. I refused to post bail and they held the ship accruing costs each day until a Court ruled without a trial or a hearing to place the ship up for auction. After spending a million dollars on security and berthage costs, the ship was sold for $50,000 but the new owner did not come up with the money and the government still has the Farley building up daily expenses for the Fisheries Department.

If Sea Shepherd is to be believed, they basically conspired to dump their busted-ass ship on the Canadian government so as to get out of paying money to retire it, and to win a pissing match between their asshole leader and some Canadian minister.

[Gramzamber]

I'm sorry but the only thing this high seas assholery is going to do is entrench the minds of the Japanese on this subject.
Instead of making the Japanese people stop and think about the issue and how the whole whale "research" thing is a ridiculous farce they go and make the whalers look like victims of foreign hooligans and pirates.

In the end whales will continue to be hunted while these idiots play silly-buggers for the camera. This isn't a war and never was, they should get their heads out of their asses and their delusions of grandeur and think real hard about how to actually HELP the animals they claim to be protecting.

[Sea Skimmer]

The only reason I think it might be intentional is because they are just too dumb to steer anyway.

The above should read unintentional

[Commander 598]

It wasn’t destroyed anyway; they lost a little chunk of bow.

Well, not anymore: http://www.stuff.co.nz/world/australia/ ... -Gil-sinks

[Uraniun235]

I read someone on another forum claiming that the Japanese are typically going after minke whales, and claiming that said species wasn't actually endangered. Is this accurate?

[Neko_Oni]

Ady Gil Rammed (Synched PiP)
Don't know if you guys and girls have seen this. Maybe someone with more knowledge of boating can comment, but it looks like the Ady Gil accelerates at around 0:20 seconds. I still can't tell if the Shonen Maru 2 is turning or not.

[Ford Prefect]

Yeah I am reading it, have you ever seen the show? These people risk sinking their main ship and KILLING EVERYONE onboard all the fucking time. Destroying a boat they didn’t pay for is right up their ally. It wasn’t destroyed anyway; they lost a little chunk of bow. The only reason I think it might be intentional is because they are just too dumb to steer anyway. This was proven by putting a guy at the helm before who could not understand a compass. The whole fact that these people even exist and have not in fact all been killed or arrested yet is absurd enough.

No, I've never seen the show; even if I did watch television I wouldn't watch something as daft as that. I know what I know from living in the small city where the ship was based; almost everything they do is front page news in Hobart and it's not hard to go and speak with crew members when they're in town (though I personally have not). I still maintain that thinking this was a deliberate act to get a tiny little boat rammed by a thousand ton ship in the middle of the Antarctic ocean is assinine. Yes, Sea Shepherd takes risk all the time and they do dangerous, almost suicidal thing frequently. So why not assume that they were taking their usual risks and simply misjudged? The idea that it was a planned collision on the part of Bethune or other members of the organisation requires him to have been consistently lying for months leading up to their first real forays. He makes it clear that he planned for regular trips Their claims of being deliberately rammed are equally likely to be bunk: they were being stupid, and they paid for it.

[weemadando]

Let's not forget that following the collision the whalers continued to harass the crew of a clearly stricken ship with water cannons and then pulled away without rendering assistance.

As much of a pack of arseholes that Sea Shepherd might be, I'm fairly certain that if a whaling ship sunk, they'd stop to help the crew.

[Master of Cards]

I read someone on another forum claiming that the Japanese are typically going after minke whales, and claiming that said species wasn't actually endangered. Is this accurate?

Wikipedia on Catches
Over the last 25 years, 13,000 catches mostly minke whales especially lately.

Minke whale numbers The IWC seems to be saying roughly 650,000 Southern Minke whales.

Basically its a .01 percent catch rate.

[adam_grif]

It is the blatant contempt for international law which makes me say that. You don't think they're openly thumbing their noses at international law by pretending that their entire whale catch is for "scientific research"?

It's not as though the whaling crews get together to twirl their mustaches and think about how they can violate international law to be as douchey as they possibly can.

That's a stupid criticism. You can look at any kind of douchebag you want, whether it's a greedy bank CEO or a drunk driver or a spammer or someone who routinely litters, and he doesn't think he's a douchebag, never mind deliberately trying to be one.

So the Japanese government being douches about the issue justifies the people doing the whaling getting shot at by activists?

[tim31]

As much of a pack of arseholes that Sea Shepherd might be, I'm fairly certain that if a whaling ship sunk, they'd stop to help the crew.

I'm not so confident; I find it more likely that Sea Shep would say 'fuck it, they have their own assets in the area.' Much the same as the Japanese did, in this case.

[weemadando]

As much of a pack of arseholes that Sea Shepherd might be, I'm fairly certain that if a whaling ship sunk, they'd stop to help the crew.

I'm not so confident; I find it more likely that Sea Shep would say 'fuck it, they have their own assets in the area.' Much the same as the Japanese did, in this case.

OK, how about: "wouldn't continue to attack the crew"?

Actually wait - no, both sides are just as stupid and bigoted here.

[CJvR]

As much of a pack of arseholes that Sea Shepherd might be, I'm fairly certain that if a whaling ship sunk, they'd stop to help the crew.

I'm not so confident; I find it more likely that Sea Shep would say 'fuck it, they have their own assets in the area.' Much the same as the Japanese did, in this case.

No doubt some of the SS would be delighted to steam away, but the PR fallout would be disasterous - at the same time offering aid would be a big PR bonus to take some of the edge of the entire sinking thing...

[salm]

However, if you're going to compare these Greenseapeace-whatever people to the Civil Rights movement, I'm going to point out why such a comparison is retarded.

No it´s not. What is retarded, though, is using legality to make moral claims.

[Commander 598]

As much of a pack of arseholes that Sea Shepherd might be, I'm fairly certain that if a whaling ship sunk, they'd stop to help the crew.

I'm not so confident; I find it more likely that Sea Shep would say 'fuck it, they have their own assets in the area.' Much the same as the Japanese did, in this case.

I've heard of an incident where the Japanese were searching for a man overboard once while SS continued to act offensively.

[tim31]

OK, how about: "wouldn't continue to attack the crew"?

Actually wait - no, both sides are just as stupid and bigoted here.

Not just that, but from the Japanese perspective it was a no-win scenario(herinafter refered to as Shōnan Maru test), if they left them be, they look like arseholes. If they pick them up, the Sea Shepherd crew screams HOSTAGE at the top of their lungs, even if the Japanese give them blankets and hot tea.

[tim31]

Uh, are you even reading what I'm replying to? The idea that they would deliberately destroy a 2.5 million dollar boat for nebulous 'drama' reasons is totally absurd.

Have just read via the Whale Wars facebook page that Sea Shepherd have apparently had a million USD donated in the wake of the incident, and they're hoping to tender construction on Ady Gil 2.

[Darth Wong]

It's not as though the whaling crews get together to twirl their mustaches and think about how they can violate international law to be as douchey as they possibly can.

That's a stupid criticism. You can look at any kind of douchebag you want, whether it's a greedy bank CEO or a drunk driver or a spammer or someone who routinely litters, and he doesn't think he's a douchebag, never mind deliberately trying to be one.

So the Japanese government being douches about the issue justifies the people doing the whaling getting shot at by activists?

When the fuck did I say that? I'm not actually advocating violence; I just said I wouldn't cry for them if it happened.

Do you honestly think people bear no guilt whatsoever for their own actions as long as somebody is paying them to do it?

[Balrog]

As much of a pack of arseholes that Sea Shepherd might be, I'm fairly certain that if a whaling ship sunk, they'd stop to help the crew.

I'm not so confident; I find it more likely that Sea Shep would say 'fuck it, they have their own assets in the area.' Much the same as the Japanese did, in this case.

I've heard of an incident where the Japanese were searching for a man overboard once while SS continued to act offensively.

I actually watched that episode (it was late night, nothing else on) and IIRC they did honestly offer to help search for the missing crewman; some of them did think it was just a ploy by the whalers though, or that they spent more time searching than necessary, just to get them off their back.

[adam_grif]

When the fuck did I say that? I'm not actually advocating violence; I just said I wouldn't cry for them if it happened.

Do you honestly think people bear no guilt whatsoever for their own actions as long as somebody is paying them to do it?

Hate the game, not the player. The legal loopholes are to blame here, not the people doing the whaling. It's as honest a job as killing pigs or cows for food. The problem here is the powerless whaling crews are the ones getting rammed and having shit thrown at them, instead of the people who can actually do something about it in the long term.

[Formless]

So anyone who willingly and purposefully abuses loopholes in the law to do something ethically reprehensible should be automatically let off the hook because they weren't the one's who wrote the law? Are you for real?

[adam_grif]

1. The vast majority of whales caught are Minke whales, which are classified "least concerned" on the endangered species list. The level of Japanese whaling is sustainable. They catch the odd Sei and Sperm, but the numbers are comparably tiny, a few hundred over a 10 year period.

2. The institute is funded and operated by the Japanese government. Were you under the impression that this was some kind of initiative run by individual whaling boats? If the boats doing it now suddenly decided they didn't like having jobs and quit, they'd just hire other people in their stead.

If you're saying that killing any whales at all is ethically reprehensible, then that's just a difference of opinion. The Japanese only even signed the IWC treaties because it was 1946, and they weren't in a position to refuse America.

[Formless]

Nice attempt to change the subject, but you will notice that I never addressed whether or not I think what the Japanese are doing is ethical or not; I'm addressing your poor reasoning that "the person who benefits from a legal loophole shouldn't be held responsible for their actions even when those actions lead to objective harm."

Besides, even if Mink whales aren't in any danger of going extinct, the fact that no one is eating what the Japanese catch and the fact that the research benefits are dubious means that continuing this practice is wasteful at best.