Can thorium replace uranium in nuclear reactors?

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Can thorium replace uranium in nuclear reactors?

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I read the following article in Wired magazine, and am skeptical of its claims.
Richard Martin; December 21, 2009; 10:00 am; Wired Jan 2010 wrote:Uranium Is So Last Century — Enter Thorium, the New Green Nuke

The thick hardbound volume was sitting on a shelf in a colleague’s office when Kirk Sorensen spotted it. A rookie NASA engineer at the Marshall Space Flight Center, Sorensen was researching nuclear-powered propulsion, and the book’s title — Fluid Fuel Reactors — jumped out at him. He picked it up and thumbed through it. Hours later, he was still reading, enchanted by the ideas but struggling with the arcane writing. “I took it home that night, but I didn’t understand all the nuclear terminology,” Sorensen says. He pored over it in the coming months, ultimately deciding that he held in his hands the key to the world’s energy future.

Published in 1958 under the auspices of the Atomic Energy Commission as part of its Atoms for Peace program, Fluid Fuel Reactors is a book only an engineer could love: a dense, 978-page account of research conducted at Oak Ridge National Lab, most of it under former director Alvin Weinberg. What caught Sorensen’s eye was the description of Weinberg’s experiments producing nuclear power with an element called thorium.

At the time, in 2000, Sorensen was just 25, engaged to be married and thrilled to be employed at his first serious job as a real aerospace engineer. A devout Mormon with a linebacker’s build and a marine’s crew cut, Sorensen made an unlikely iconoclast. But the book inspired him to pursue an intense study of nuclear energy over the next few years, during which he became convinced that thorium could solve the nuclear power industry’s most intractable problems. After it has been used as fuel for power plants, the element leaves behind minuscule amounts of waste. And that waste needs to be stored for only a few hundred years, not a few hundred thousand like other nuclear byproducts. Because it’s so plentiful in nature, it’s virtually inexhaustible. It’s also one of only a few substances that acts as a thermal breeder, in theory creating enough new fuel as it breaks down to sustain a high-temperature chain reaction indefinitely. And it would be virtually impossible for the byproducts of a thorium reactor to be used by terrorists or anyone else to make nuclear weapons.

Weinberg and his men proved the efficacy of thorium reactors in hundreds of tests at Oak Ridge from the ’50s through the early ’70s. But thorium hit a dead end. Locked in a struggle with a nuclear- armed Soviet Union, the US government in the ’60s chose to build uranium-fueled reactors — in part because they produce plutonium that can be refined into weapons-grade material. The course of the nuclear industry was set for the next four decades, and thorium power became one of the great what-if technologies of the 20th century.

Today, however, Sorensen spearheads a cadre of outsiders dedicated to sparking a thorium revival. When he’s not at his day job as an aerospace engineer at Marshall Space Flight Center in Huntsville, Alabama — or wrapping up the master’s in nuclear engineering he is soon to earn from the University of Tennessee — he runs a popular blog called Energy From Thorium. A community of engineers, amateur nuclear power geeks, and researchers has gathered around the site’s forum, ardently discussing the future of thorium. The site even links to PDFs of the Oak Ridge archives, which Sorensen helped get scanned. Energy From Thorium has become a sort of open source project aimed at resurrecting long-lost energy technology using modern techniques.

And the online upstarts aren’t alone. Industry players are looking into thorium, and governments from Dubai to Beijing are funding research. India is betting heavily on the element.

The concept of nuclear power without waste or proliferation has obvious political appeal in the US, as well. The threat of climate change has created an urgent demand for carbon-free electricity, and the 52,000 tons of spent, toxic material that has piled up around the country makes traditional nuclear power less attractive. President Obama and his energy secretary, Steven Chu, have expressed general support for a nuclear renaissance. Utilities are investigating several next-gen alternatives, including scaled-down conventional plants and “pebble bed” reactors, in which the nuclear fuel is inserted into small graphite balls in a way that reduces the risk of meltdown.

Those technologies are still based on uranium, however, and will be beset by the same problems that have dogged the nuclear industry since the 1960s. It is only thorium, Sorensen and his band of revolutionaries argue, that can move the country toward a new era of safe, clean, affordable energy.

Named for the Norse god of thunder, thorium is a lustrous silvery-white metal. It’s only slightly radioactive; you could carry a lump of it in your pocket without harm. On the periodic table of elements, it’s found in the bottom row, along with other dense, radioactive substances — including uranium and plutonium — known as actinides.

Actinides are dense because their nuclei contain large numbers of neutrons and protons. But it’s the strange behavior of those nuclei that has long made actinides the stuff of wonder. At intervals that can vary from every millisecond to every hundred thousand years, actinides spin off particles and decay into more stable elements. And if you pack together enough of certain actinide atoms, their nuclei will erupt in a powerful release of energy.

To understand the magic and terror of those two processes working in concert, think of a game of pool played in 3-D. The nucleus of the atom is a group of balls, or particles, racked at the center. Shoot the cue ball — a stray neutron — and the cluster breaks apart, or fissions. Now imagine the same game played with trillions of racked nuclei. Balls propelled by the first collision crash into nearby clusters, which fly apart, their stray neutrons colliding with yet more clusters. Voilè0: a nuclear chain reaction.

Actinides are the only materials that split apart this way, and if the collisions are uncontrolled, you unleash hell: a nuclear explosion. But if you can control the conditions in which these reactions happen — by both controlling the number of stray neutrons and regulating the temperature, as is done in the core of a nuclear reactor — you get useful energy. Racks of these nuclei crash together, creating a hot glowing pile of radioactive material. If you pump water past the material, the water turns to steam, which can spin a turbine to make electricity.

Uranium is currently the actinide of choice for the industry, used (sometimes with a little plutonium) in 100 percent of the world’s commercial reactors. But it’s a problematic fuel. In most reactors, sustaining a chain reaction requires extremely rare uranium-235, which must be purified, or enriched, from far more common U-238. The reactors also leave behind plutonium-239, itself radioactive (and useful to technologically sophisticated organizations bent on making bombs). And conventional uranium-fueled reactors require lots of engineering, including neutron-absorbing control rods to damp the reaction and gargantuan pressurized vessels to move water through the reactor core. If something goes kerflooey, the surrounding countryside gets blanketed with radioactivity (think Chernobyl). Even if things go well, toxic waste is left over.

When he took over as head of Oak Ridge in 1955, Alvin Weinberg realized that thorium by itself could start to solve these problems. It’s abundant — the US has at least 175,000 tons of the stuff — and doesn’t require costly processing. It is also extraordinarily efficient as a nuclear fuel. As it decays in a reactor core, its byproducts produce more neutrons per collision than conventional fuel. The more neutrons per collision, the more energy generated, the less total fuel consumed, and the less radioactive nastiness left behind.

Even better, Weinberg realized that you could use thorium in an entirely new kind of reactor, one that would have zero risk of meltdown. The design is based on the lab’s finding that thorium dissolves in hot liquid fluoride salts. This fission soup is poured into tubes in the core of the reactor, where the nuclear chain reaction — the billiard balls colliding — happens. The system makes the reactor self-regulating: When the soup gets too hot it expands and flows out of the tubes — slowing fission and eliminating the possibility of another Chernobyl. Any actinide can work in this method, but thorium is particularly well suited because it is so efficient at the high temperatures at which fission occurs in the soup.

In 1965, Weinberg and his team built a working reactor, one that suspended the byproducts of thorium in a molten salt bath, and he spent the rest of his 18-year tenure trying to make thorium the heart of the nation’s atomic power effort. He failed. Uranium reactors had already been established, and Hyman Rickover, de facto head of the US nuclear program, wanted the plutonium from uranium-powered nuclear plants to make bombs. Increasingly shunted aside, Weinberg was finally forced out in 1973.

That proved to be “the most pivotal year in energy history,” according to the US Energy Information Administration. It was the year the Arab states cut off oil supplies to the West, setting in motion the petroleum-fueled conflicts that roil the world to this day. The same year, the US nuclear industry signed contracts to build a record 41 nuke plants, all of which used uranium. And 1973 was the year that thorium R&D faded away — and with it the realistic prospect for a golden nuclear age when electricity would be too cheap to meter and clean, safe nuclear plants would dot the green countryside.

When Sorensen and his pals began delving into this history, they discovered not only an alternative fuel but also the design for the alternative reactor. Using that template, the Energy From Thorium team helped produce a design for a new liquid fluoride thorium reactor, or LFTR (pronounced “lifter”), which, according to estimates by Sorensen and others, would be some 50 percent more efficient than today’s light-water uranium reactors. If the US reactor fleet could be converted to LFTRs overnight, existing thorium reserves would power the US for a thousand years.

Overseas, the nuclear power establishment is getting the message. In France, which already generates more than 75 percent of its electricity from nuclear power, the Laboratoire de Physique Subatomique et de Cosmologie has been building models of variations of Weinberg’s design for molten salt reactors to see if they can be made to work efficiently. The real action, though, is in India and China, both of which need to satisfy an immense and growing demand for electricity. The world’s largest source of thorium, India, doesn’t have any commercial thorium reactors yet. But it has announced plans to increase its nuclear power capacity: Nuclear energy now accounts for 9 percent of India’s total energy; the government expects that by 2050 it will be 25 percent, with thorium generating a large part of that. China plans to build dozens of nuclear reactors in the coming decade, and it hosted a major thorium conference last October. The People’s Republic recently ordered mineral refiners to reserve the thorium they produce so it can be used to generate nuclear power.

In the United States, the LFTR concept is gaining momentum, if more slowly. Sorensen and others promote it regularly at energy conferences. Renowned climatologist James Hansen specifically cited thorium as a potential fuel source in an “Open Letter to Obama” after the election. And legislators are acting, too. At least three thorium-related bills are making their way through the Capitol, including the Senate’s Thorium Energy Independence and Security Act, cosponsored by Orrin Hatch of Utah and Harry Reid of Nevada, which would provide $250 million for research at the Department of Energy. “I don’t know of anything more beneficial to the country, as far as environmentally sound power, than nuclear energy powered by thorium,” Hatch says. (Both senators have long opposed nuclear waste dumps in their home states.)

Unfortunately, $250 million won’t solve the problem. The best available estimates for building even one molten salt reactor run much higher than that. And there will need to be lots of startup capital if thorium is to become financially efficient enough to persuade nuclear power executives to scrap an installed base of conventional reactors. “What we have now works pretty well,” says John Rowe, CEO of Exelon, a power company that owns the country’s largest portfolio of nuclear reactors, “and it will for the foreseeable future.”

Critics point out that thorium’s biggest advantage — its high efficiency — actually presents challenges. Since the reaction is sustained for a very long time, the fuel needs special containers that are extremely durable and can stand up to corrosive salts. The combination of certain kinds of corrosion-resistant alloys and graphite could meet these requirements. But such a system has yet to be proven over decades.

And LFTRs face more than engineering problems; they’ve also got serious perception problems. To some nuclear engineers, a LFTR is a little … unsettling. It’s a chaotic system without any of the closely monitored control rods and cooling towers on which the nuclear industry stakes its claim to safety. A conventional reactor, on the other hand, is as tightly engineered as a jet fighter. And more important, Americans have come to regard anything that’s in any way nuclear with profound skepticism.

So, if US utilities are unlikely to embrace a new generation of thorium reactors, a more viable strategy would be to put thorium into existing nuclear plants. In fact, work in that direction is starting to happen — thanks to a US company operating in Russia.

Located outside Moscow, the Kurchatov Institute is known as the Los Alamos of Russia. Much of the work on the Soviet nuclear arsenal took place here. In the late ’80s, as the Soviet economy buckled, Kurchatov scientists found themselves wearing mittens to work in unheated laboratories. Then, in the mid-’90s, a savior appeared: a Virginia company called Thorium Power.

Founded by another Alvin — American nuclear physicist Alvin Radkowsky — Thorium Power, since renamed Lightbridge, is attempting to commercialize technology that will replace uranium with thorium in conventional reactors. From 1950 to 1972, Radkowsky headed the team that designed reactors to power Navy ships and submarines, and in 1977 Westinghouse opened a reactor he had drawn up — with a uranium thorium core. The reactor ran efficiently for five years until the experiment was ended. Radkowsky formed his company in 1992 with millions of dollars from the Initiative for Proliferation Prevention Program, essentially a federal make-work effort to keep those chilly former Soviet weapons scientists from joining another team.

The reactor design that Lightbridge created is known as seed-and-blanket. Its core consists of a seed of enriched uranium rods surrounded by a blanket of rods made of thorium oxide mixed with uranium oxide. This yields a safer, longer-lived reaction than uranium rods alone. It also produces less waste, and the little bit it does leave behind is unsuitable for use in weapons.

CEO Seth Grae thinks it’s better business to convert existing reactors than it is to build new ones. “We’re just trying to replace leaded fuel with unleaded,” he says. “You don’t have to replace engines or build new gas stations.” Grae is speaking from Abu Dhabi, where he has multimillion-dollar contracts to advise the United Arab Emirates on its plans for nuclear power. In August 2009, Lightbridge signed a deal with the French firm Areva, the world’s largest nuclear power producer, to investigate alternative nuclear fuel assemblies.

Until developing the consulting side of its business, Lightbridge struggled to build a convincing business model. Now, Grae says, the company has enough revenue to commercialize its seed-and-blanket system. It needs approval from the US Nuclear Regulatory Commission — which could be difficult given that the design was originally developed and tested in Russian reactors. Then there’s the nontrivial matter of winning over American nuclear utilities. Seed-and-blanket doesn’t just have to work — it has to deliver a significant economic edge.

For Sorensen, putting thorium into a conventional reactor is a half measure, like putting biofuel in a Hummer. But he acknowledges that the seed-and-blanket design has potential to get the country on its way to a greener, safer nuclear future. “The real enemy is coal,” he says. “I want to fight it with LFTRs — which are like machine guns — instead of with light-water reactors, which are like bayonets. But when the enemy is spilling into the trench, you affix bayonets and go to work.” The thorium battalion is small, but — as nuclear physics demonstrates — tiny forces can yield powerful effects.

Richard Martin (rmartin@newwest.net), editor of VON, wrote about the Large Hadron Collider in issue 12.04.
I doubt the reason thorium reactors weren't researched, was NOT as simple as "Pentagon wanted nucular weapons." Maybe thorium was more difficult to refine and process into a usable fuel? Comments from people with detailed knowledge of nuclear power?

Note that this is NOT the first time Wired published an orgasmic "technology techniques of the future will save us!" article without considering what real-life issues may prevent the wide implementation of these technologies and techniques. (See: Unleash the Nuclear-Armed Robo-Bombers, Wired-o-Nomics: What Detroit Can Learn From the Apple Store, etc.)
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They have more WMD than there are monsters for us to fight. (More insanity here.)
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Re: Can thorium replace uranium in nuclear reactors?

Post by Rahvin »

I doubt the reason thorium reactors weren't researched, was NOT as simple as "Pentagon wanted nucular weapons." Maybe thorium was more difficult to refine and process into a usable fuel? Comments from people with detailed knowledge of nuclear power?
The article specifically mentioned the problem of corrosion, since the Thorium process uses a slurry of extremely hot molten salts. Perhaps corrosion-resistant materials science has progressed a bit further and solved that problem?
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Re: Can thorium replace uranium in nuclear reactors?

Post by Bakustra »

Thorium can, in fact, be used as a nuclear fuel. However, the thorium itself is not fissile. Rather, the thorium absorbs slow neutrons to become the fissile U-233 (Note that this requires Th-232, which happily is the most abundant, by orders of magnitude.), which is then separated out and used as fuel in a power reactor. U-233 is in some ways a better fuel than U-235 or Pu-239, because it produces more neutrons per neutron absorbed than either, but it also produces Pa-233, a neutron absorber, making it less than ideal in others.

In short, thorium is perfectly viable as a nuclear fuel, its U-233 derivative is excellent for breeder reactors, and it is four times as common in the crust as uranium, with 99.99% of that thorium being useful for a reactor, as opposed to the .72% of uranium useful for conventional reactors.

Now, as to reasons why thorium never took off. Firstly, initial research for nuclear reactors and nuclear fission focused on uranium, which was because you can put U-235 in a reactor and it will run, as opposed to the breeder step necessary for thorium, which requires a neutron source. Research for the Manhattan Project continued along these lines. Secondly, the infrastructure necessary to refine thorium for reactors never sprung up, thanks to the first factor. Thirdly, thorium's virtues and their commercial viability required investigation, which requires time and money for the basic research to determine whether Th232+n = U233 is economically viable, which was not necessarily a high priority for anybody in nuclear physics, though there were early thorium reactors, like the Shippingport reactor in the US, and which have continued in use over the past few decades.

Other problems include the presence of U-232 within the refined U-233, which raises the cost because it has to be removed, the fact that the waste products include Th-228, which is highly radioactive, as are U-232 and U-233, which make recycling difficult, though the actual wastes are reduced in amount. Wired, though, points out that there needs to be a lot of research done before thorium is commercially viable.
Rahvin wrote:
I doubt the reason thorium reactors weren't researched, was NOT as simple as "Pentagon wanted nucular weapons." Maybe thorium was more difficult to refine and process into a usable fuel? Comments from people with detailed knowledge of nuclear power?
The article specifically mentioned the problem of corrosion, since the Thorium process uses a slurry of extremely hot molten salts. Perhaps corrosion-resistant materials science has progressed a bit further and solved that problem?
They actually experimented with thorium/uranium reactors from 1977-82. This was the Shippingport reactor, which was the first to be used solely for electric power production, and proved to have actually served as a breeder reactor while running for the last five years of its life, as well as continuing to produce power while running on a uranium/thorium mix. The MSR/MSWR process was proposed back in the '60s, but materials science has made it potentially more practical. MSRs, to note, do not produce power commercially. They would simply convert the thorium to U-233, which would then be used in a slow neutron reactor.

Sourcing:

Thorium, from the World Nuclear Association
Relative proliferation of uranium isotopes from the online periodic table here.
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Re: Can thorium replace uranium in nuclear reactors?

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Bakustra wrote:Thorium can, in fact, be used as a nuclear fuel. However, the thorium itself is not fissile. Rather, the thorium absorbs slow neutrons to become the fissile U-233 (Note that this requires Th-232, which happily is the most abundant, by orders of magnitude.), which is then separated out and used as fuel in a power reactor. U-233 is in some ways a better fuel than U-235 or Pu-239, because it produces more neutrons per neutron absorbed than either, but it also produces Pa-233, a neutron absorber, making it less than ideal in others.
Not quite. Thorium absorbs a neutron and turns into Pa-233, which decays with a half-life of 27 days into U-233. If you remove the Pa-233 continuously (or at frequent intervals) during breeding and stick it in a decay tank for a while, you can make it almost irrelevant to the neutron economy of the reactor. Of course, this is easiest to do with a two-fuel molten salt reactor, but you can get a similar effect by fiddling with solid fuels.
The MSR/MSWR process was proposed back in the '60s, but materials science has made it potentially more practical. MSRs, to note, do not produce power commercially. They would simply convert the thorium to U-233, which would then be used in a slow neutron reactor.
What? The designs I've seen are definitely meant to make power commercially. Take the LFTR, for example; it has some pretty cool commercial advantages. If you cool it with a gas (e.g. CO2, helium, nitrogen), you can use it to directly drive a Brayton-cycle gas turbine, which gives higher thermodynamic efficiency and much cheaper turbomachinery. The high core temperature makes it useful for a broader range of industrial process heat applications. They can be refueled continuously, and they make separating fission products surprisingly easy. You can continuously remove xenon-135, a powerful neutron absorber which is one of the classic hassles of nuclear reactors. And if your reactor uses up uranium almost as fast as it breeds it, you don't need to transport U-233 to other reactors -- and that means that the U-232 contamination is a good thing, since it makes the reactors proliferation-resistant. That is, in order to make a practical bomb from the uranium that a LFTR breeds, you'd need to separate the isotopes to remove the U-232, which is hard. Plus, there's the inherent safety: molten salt reactors have a strong and fast negative temperature coefficient of reactivity because of thermal expansion of the fuel. And since they operate at relatively low pressures, they don't need such massive pressure vessels. As added safety, they can include a freeze plug that melts if it's not actively cooled by the electrical output of the reactor. If the freeze plug melts, the fuel drains out into passively cooled subcritical storage containers.

Also, molten salt reactors were actually tested back in the '60s. The molten salt reactor experiment at Oak Ridge National Laboratory ran for five years, and was a technical success. They found operating it to be pleasantly uneventful.
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Re: Can thorium replace uranium in nuclear reactors?

Post by Fingolfin_Noldor »

The Oak Ridge Molten salt reactor was largely a success, but I read somewhere that years after they shut the reactor down, a check on the integrity of the reactor indicated that the reactor wall was slowly being eaten away. Today however, I believe they are experimenting with different compositions of the salt. I don't really recall the technical details off hand, but Molten salt reactors are extremely plausible and within reach.
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Re: Can thorium replace uranium in nuclear reactors?

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How expensive would mass production of thorium be from an economic point of view ? I ask because despite it's vast potential and half century of widespread civilian and military use uranium for nuclear power generation remains a very expensive material. Only the richest countries can afford it in large amounts required to construct nuclear powerplants that can reduce dependence on oil and coal.
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Re: Can thorium replace uranium in nuclear reactors?

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I thought breeder reactors were killed politically in the 70s? Thorium breeders have been considered since the 80s, even in Australia. It's not news (although the research into MSRs is interesting).
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Re: Can thorium replace uranium in nuclear reactors?

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sketerpot wrote:
Bakustra wrote:Thorium can, in fact, be used as a nuclear fuel. However, the thorium itself is not fissile. Rather, the thorium absorbs slow neutrons to become the fissile U-233 (Note that this requires Th-232, which happily is the most abundant, by orders of magnitude.), which is then separated out and used as fuel in a power reactor. U-233 is in some ways a better fuel than U-235 or Pu-239, because it produces more neutrons per neutron absorbed than either, but it also produces Pa-233, a neutron absorber, making it less than ideal in others.
Not quite. Thorium absorbs a neutron and turns into Pa-233, which decays with a half-life of 27 days into U-233. If you remove the Pa-233 continuously (or at frequent intervals) during breeding and stick it in a decay tank for a while, you can make it almost irrelevant to the neutron economy of the reactor. Of course, this is easiest to do with a two-fuel molten salt reactor, but you can get a similar effect by fiddling with solid fuels.
Well, I was going for simplicity and so omitted the full transmutation. The disadvantage is that removing the Pa necessarily creates problems with delays and complexity, which is why there is still some skepticism about thorium as a widespread nuclear fuel.
The MSR/MSWR process was proposed back in the '60s, but materials science has made it potentially more practical. MSRs, to note, do not produce power commercially. They would simply convert the thorium to U-233, which would then be used in a slow neutron reactor.
What? The designs I've seen are definitely meant to make power commercially. Take the LFTR, for example; it has some pretty cool commercial advantages. If you cool it with a gas (e.g. CO2, helium, nitrogen), you can use it to directly drive a Brayton-cycle gas turbine, which gives higher thermodynamic efficiency and much cheaper turbomachinery. The high core temperature makes it useful for a broader range of industrial process heat applications. They can be refueled continuously, and they make separating fission products surprisingly easy. You can continuously remove xenon-135, a powerful neutron absorber which is one of the classic hassles of nuclear reactors. And if your reactor uses up uranium almost as fast as it breeds it, you don't need to transport U-233 to other reactors -- and that means that the U-232 contamination is a good thing, since it makes the reactors proliferation-resistant. That is, in order to make a practical bomb from the uranium that a LFTR breeds, you'd need to separate the isotopes to remove the U-232, which is hard. Plus, there's the inherent safety: molten salt reactors have a strong and fast negative temperature coefficient of reactivity because of thermal expansion of the fuel. And since they operate at relatively low pressures, they don't need such massive pressure vessels. As added safety, they can include a freeze plug that melts if it's not actively cooled by the electrical output of the reactor. If the freeze plug melts, the fuel drains out into passively cooled subcritical storage containers.

Also, molten salt reactors were actually tested back in the '60s. The molten salt reactor experiment at Oak Ridge National Laboratory ran for five years, and was a technical success. They found operating it to be pleasantly uneventful.
It seems that I misread the information and thought that it was a pure breeder design. Mea culpa.

The point in the article was that molten salt reactors are being considered more practical for wide use with modern developments in materials science. I actually don't know whether this is due to corrosion problems or something else, but the safety of MSRs was one of the points in the original article. Do you have more information on the Oak Ridge MSR?
Sarevok wrote:How expensive would mass production of thorium be from an economic point of view ? I ask because despite it's vast potential and half century of widespread civilian and military use uranium for nuclear power generation remains a very expensive material. Only the richest countries can afford it in large amounts required to construct nuclear powerplants that can reduce dependence on oil and coal.
Well, thorium is found throughout the crust, but there are large concentrations in India, Australia, Turkey, the US, and Venezuela. There are about 2.6 million tonnes of thorium that can be mined for $80US/kilogram that are proven resources, but there has been little actual surveying of thorium deposits. The IAEA recently doubled the amount of proven thorium in India, for example. There's four times as much thorium as uranium, which does not need to be enriched for fuel production. However, as to affordability... I have no clue. It seems that thorium ought to be much cheaper than uranium, since you have to buy less of it and it's far more common, but that's assuming all other things being equal, and as to whether that will drop prices into the range of Third World nations is something I can only speculate on.
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Re: Can thorium replace uranium in nuclear reactors?

Post by Fingolfin_Noldor »

Sarevok wrote:How expensive would mass production of thorium be from an economic point of view ? I ask because despite it's vast potential and half century of widespread civilian and military use uranium for nuclear power generation remains a very expensive material. Only the richest countries can afford it in large amounts required to construct nuclear powerplants that can reduce dependence on oil and coal.
Obviously it will be expensive, regardless what happens. Heavy elements required for fission have always been in short supply because of the nature of nuclear synthesis.

It sucks to be a poor country, but I doubt it would be a substantial issue. Even Indonesia, a third world country, is considering Nuclear power, despite the costs.
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Re: Can thorium replace uranium in nuclear reactors?

Post by Rahvin »

Obviously it will be expensive, regardless what happens. Heavy elements required for fission have always been in short supply because of the nature of nuclear synthesis.
It's not really the actual cost that's important - it's the cost relative to using Uranium. Uranium's biggest advantage at this point is that there is already a well-established base of reactors in the world. The infrastructure is already present.

Thorium, because it requires vastly less processing and exists in significantly greater quantities and has greater efficiency as a power source, and produces less waste that also requires less time to fully decay should become significantly less expensive than Uranium after a significant Thorium-based nuclear industry begins. Until then, however, there will still be astronomical development and infrastructure costs.

Still, a source for nuclear power that requires less processing, reduced and shorter-term storage, is not dangerous to transport, is vastly more plentiful, and carries reduced risk of weapons proliferation is almost too good to be true - it doesn't have the power output potential of fusion but seems to carry many of the other benefits. It sounds like an excellent and actually feasible solution to the global energy crisis that bypasses much of the nuclear scaremongering that's dominated the subject in the US for decades.
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Re: Can thorium replace uranium in nuclear reactors?

Post by Sea Skimmer »

Stark wrote:I thought breeder reactors were killed politically in the 70s? Thorium breeders have been considered since the 80s, even in Australia. It's not news (although the research into MSRs is interesting).
Yeah they died because they breed plutonium. However this argument has subsequently been torpedoed because the US now operates several nuclear reactors to burn up plutonium based fuel blends made from surplus Russian plutonium. Fuel reprocessing in general was also killed off in most western countries, only Japan and France seem to do it anymore, and you need to reprocess the breeder fuel. People objected because it meant extracting plutonium even from non breeder fuel, and a made a fair bit of mid and low level nuclear waste, which is in some respects more annoying to deal with then a small amount of very high level waste. Course uranium mining also creates hoards of low level waste we can never deal with, but that’s out of sight and out of mind to the Carter supporting idiots who killed reprocessing.
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Re: Can thorium replace uranium in nuclear reactors?

Post by Stark »

A lot of breeder designs can't be used to create nuclear weapon material (at least without far more difficult chemistry than simply enriching uranium) or never need to move fuel to external reprocessing facilities. The whole 'oh noes plutonium economy' thing seems pretty lame to me.
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Re: Can thorium replace uranium in nuclear reactors?

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Rahvin wrote:Thorium, because it requires vastly less processing and exists in significantly greater quantities and has greater efficiency as a power source, and produces less waste that also requires less time to fully decay should become significantly less expensive than Uranium after a significant Thorium-based nuclear industry begins. Until then, however, there will still be astronomical development and infrastructure costs.
India is working on reactors that incorporate thorium as a major part of their fuel mix, and China is trying to work out practical ways to burn thorium in their new generation of pebble-bed reactors. Lack of thorium mining and enrichment infrastructure shouldn't be a problem for much longer.
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Re: Can thorium replace uranium in nuclear reactors?

Post by fnord »

Rahvin wrote:
The article specifically mentioned the problem of corrosion, since the Thorium process uses a slurry of extremely hot molten salts. Perhaps corrosion-resistant materials science has progressed a bit further and solved that problem?
If it's hastelloy corrosion you're thinking of, I think ORNL solved that by modifying the alloy's formulation, and similarly corrosion-resistant hastelloys are now commercially available.

sketerpot - what enrichment needs? I thought that, as per the article, enough of it was usable as-is to not need isotope seperation.
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Re: Can thorium replace uranium in nuclear reactors?

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Ah, thanks, I mis-spoke. I meant to say "ore refinement".
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Re: Can thorium replace uranium in nuclear reactors?

Post by The Duchess of Zeon »

Molten Salt Reactors have run before, so that is not an automatic disincentive toward thorium fuels. The Molten Salt Breeder Reactor programme from the 1960s showed us what we need to do. This is the Oak Ridge presentation on the concept, and here's a recent French paper detailing their advances in the field: < URL tags won't work > http://hal.in2p3.fr/docs/00/18/69/44/PDF/TMSR-ENC07.pdf -- THE THORIUM MOLTEN SALT REACTOR: LAUNCHING THE THORIUM CYCLE WHILE CLOSING THE CURRENT FUEL CYCLE . I hadn't seen either one posted, and yet together they provide a fairly solid approach to some of the questions asked here.
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Re: Can thorium replace uranium in nuclear reactors?

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The good thing with nuclear power is that fuel price makes only small part in overall costs associated with running a nuclear reactor so unlike fossil fuel plants a large increase of fuel price will make only little effect to the price of generated electricity. From what I have read regarding thorium fuel cycle it would require only few tons of thorium to run a typical 1GW reactor for one year since thorium fuel cycle is much more efficient than uranium cycle. With such efficiency thorium could be as expensive as gold and still generate cheap electricity.
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Re: Can thorium replace uranium in nuclear reactors?

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Sky Captain wrote:The good thing with nuclear power is that fuel price makes only small part in overall costs associated with running a nuclear reactor so unlike fossil fuel plants a large increase of fuel price will make only little effect to the price of generated electricity. From what I have read regarding thorium fuel cycle it would require only few tons of thorium to run a typical 1GW reactor for one year since thorium fuel cycle is much more efficient than uranium cycle. With such efficiency thorium could be as expensive as gold and still generate cheap electricity.
Indeed, to illustrate this lets work it out. The reaction that goes on in a power plant leads to about a 1% change of the mass, which is where the energy comes from. Using E=mc2 that means that you get about 1015J/kg of uranium that reacts. About 1% of uranium is usable in the reactor, so starting from a 1kg mixture of isotopes you get about 1013J. A unit of electricity sells for about 10p, and a unit is a kWh = 3.6 MJ so with a 30% efficient power plant we'll need about 10MJ from our reactor to make 1 unit of electricity.

Thus 1kg of uranium is worth 1013J/10MJ * 10p = £100,000.

Given that the price of 1kg of uranium ore is less that £50, the majority of the costs are not in the raw ore itself.
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Re: Can thorium replace uranium in nuclear reactors?

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Is thorium more common than uranium even if you factor in the latter in seawater?
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Re: Can thorium replace uranium in nuclear reactors?

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Sky Captain wrote:The good thing with nuclear power is that fuel price makes only small part in overall costs associated with running a nuclear reactor so unlike fossil fuel plants a large increase of fuel price will make only little effect to the price of generated electricity. From what I have read regarding thorium fuel cycle it would require only few tons of thorium to run a typical 1GW reactor for one year since thorium fuel cycle is much more efficient than uranium cycle. With such efficiency thorium could be as expensive as gold and still generate cheap electricity.
It's about 1 tonne (i.e. 1000 kg) of thorium to run a 1 GW plant for a year. That compares with 35 tonnes of 3% enriched uranium, which is enriched from 250 tonnes of natural uranium.
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Re: Can thorium replace uranium in nuclear reactors?

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Another thing to consider is thorium fuel is a long term solution to energy problems with potential to supply all worlds energy needs for thousands of years not just some stopgap solution like switching from one fossil fuel type to another. So even if it takes 50 billion $ to develop a reliable mass producible thorium fueled reactor design it would still be an investment that would pay itself back through drastically reduced pollution and less dependency to unreliable foreign countries as energy suppliers.
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Re: Can thorium replace uranium in nuclear reactors?

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There's probably about three times as much recoverable thorium as there is uranium. Also remember that we can achieve about 99.4 - 99.6% efficiency in the reprocessing cycle using molten salt breeders in combination with a thorium cycle, and with uranium. Roughly the development of this technology would allow us, just with reserves existing as recoverable with current technology, to provide all the energy needs of modern society off uranium alone for about 1,000 - 2,000 years. With the thorium cycle operated in conjunction we'd probably have enough nuclear fuel for the next ten thousand years, assuming a stable population of 7 - 8 billions and European levels of energy useage worldwide in conjunction with roughly stable amounts of hydro and solar/wind/wave/geothermal. Uranium recovery from salt water would considerably extend that figure in turn--if this technology is realized, lifetimes of 70,000 - 100,000 years for a civilization of 7 - 8 billions with modern levels of power expenditure would be conceivable.
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Re: Can thorium replace uranium in nuclear reactors?

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Even if there was only 200 years of fuel available I'm fairly confident we could replace it with more long term alternatives in that timeframe.
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Re: Can thorium replace uranium in nuclear reactors?

Post by The Duchess of Zeon »

adam_grif wrote:Even if there was only 200 years of fuel available I'm fairly confident we could replace it with more long term alternatives in that timeframe.
Yes, but there's no need to be so pessimistic. Planets are extremely large objects, and the fuel resources present on Earth are substantial if properly tapped and properly recycled.
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Re: Can thorium replace uranium in nuclear reactors?

Post by Ted C »

As I recall from some cursory research on the subject, Thorium is one of the byproducts of CANDU-style reactors, and it can easily be fed back into the reactor after a bit of processing, so Thorium-fueled reactors are actually in use today in some places.
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