Avatar review thread

[Sky Captain]

Because clearly, the planet wasn't hard enough to operate on.

Congratulations, you've just most likely rendered the planet completely uninhabitable, not just unbreatheable.

Well, then fire into a planet only for minimum required time and power to give every navi gathered at Tree of souls lethal radiation sickness. But then again firing an antimatter drive into a planet would certainly classify as a use of WMD which was strictly prohibited and would give RDA far more trouble than they already had. Although Quaritch if survived and somehow managed to get aboard Venture Star could have done it anyway just because he was such a badass.

[Gramzamber]

Actually, strike my previous comments about the Na'vi earning themselves an orbital bombardment. The computer game plot is much cooler;

In the Avatar video game, the global neural link can be manipulated by humans as well. If the player chooses to side with the RDA, then the main objective throughout the game is to gather three psionic crystals in certain areas and plant them near specific crystal willow trees, which are said to be where emanations of Eywa concentrate. This is done so that the willow trees emit a beam and signal that activates and points people toward the direction of the Well of Souls. This allows RDA scientists to both find the Well of Souls and build an artificial psionic machine that emulates an aggressive version of the smaller willow trees' signals, which is then planted in front of the active Well of Souls. This allows the RDA to tap into Eywa itself, control the psionic consciousness, and take control of the planet itself to turn it against the Na'vi, thereby giving the RDA a decisive advantage. Eventually, the RDA is successful in these efforts, and is now inevitably on the way to winning the war against the Na'vi and taking absolute control of Pandora. This only occurs if the player sides with the RDA.

Ok the specifics are nonsense ('psionic crystals' lol) but I like the general idea. So you've got yourself a squishy version of the Internet? Which you have no technical understanding of and interpret through spiritual metaphors? By now humanity has a century and a half of practice hacking, cracking and writing viruses, to go with the advanced biotech. In fact why stop with taking over all the wildlife and reprogram them to help with the colonisation effort, when you can turn the soul trees into spam servers and have the Na'vi think their ancestors want them to revere the humans as gods? A deliciously evil way of defeating and subjugating all the noble savages without physically harming any of them.

*SPOILERS for the game*

While the game is fairly cool, especially for a movie-tie in game, the RDA plot is rather silly.
In the RDA story, you do eventually use the "Emulator" device to make direct contact with Eywa and disrupt it's link with the Na'vi. However in the end it's revealed to be a temporary victory, as the Emulator's disruption won't last and Grace tells you that "Now Eywa knows what we're capable of, and will be prepared.".
Essentially it's a prequel to the events of the movie. However the Emulator being a temporary disruption makes the actions of Colonel Falco completely idiotic, in that he goes rogue and risks global genocide on Pandora (apparently if the Emulator is used incorrectly it could destroy the entire ecosystem) to use the device without RDA's supervision.
Oh and Quaritch threatened to put me on latrine duty if I banged up his Dragon. Which I did. Bastard.

[Darth Wong]

So this black girl you know decided to act exactly like the worst uneducated moron stereotype who can't articulate a worthwhile opinion or a cogent criticism, and you declare that therefore, it must be true. Because she's black, and blacks cannot be wrong on racial issues, right? Sort of like how all criticism of racism in the Republican Party was instantly made wrong when Michael Steele became chairman, right?

Wow Mike. Way to jump to conclusions. I mean, obviously she wasn't reduced to incoherency by the sheer inanity of seeing the damn whitey saves the natives plot again.

Don't be a fucking moron. Since when does someone get distraught and then phonetically type incoherent sounds on a keyboard? This is like Monty Python and the Holy Grail, and the Castle of Aaaaargh.

Obviously she wasn't expecting the heroic leader of the aliens to actually be, I dunno, an alien? Obviously, she doesn't have her rage buttons that this movie was pressing pretty damn hard. Obviously I do not respect her for previous cognizant and well argued points that are beyond the scope of this thread. I mean, if she made me think about Spock in a totally new way last summer, that's irrelevant because now she's mad and crafting a post on her blog to reflect how mad she is. Oh, and forbid I trim her post for length and effect to get to what I feel is the heart of the issue people were discussing with her.

Oh, so "rage buttons" make her point more reasonable?

No, all this past history is irrelevant to my conclusions. Clearly, in reading the most rage-filled part of her review, you have seen through to the heart of her idiocy and her inability to string two words together.

That's the only part you quoted, fucktard. Don't get on my case for selective quoting when you were the one performing the selection. If she had something intelligent to say, then fine. Show me.

What the fuck makes this imbecile such an authority on the issue? The fact that she's black, angry, and apparently illiterate? Avatar is an obvious metaphor for the American Native conquest, not African slavery.

I note that you are neither an African or an American Native, and you still hold views on racism against those minorities, right?

Yeah, and I can argue for them coherently, instead of using rage as a substitute for an argument.

[Shroom Man 777]

In France, they grant citizenship to French Foreign Legionnaires who shed blood on the battlefield for the nation of France. They have a fancy-pantsy term for that, basically amounting to French By Blood.

Wow. They'd let a cheese croissant become a French citizen, wouldn't they? Omelette du fromage! Sacre bleu!

But since I am raised in the Filipino ghetto (not gutter, I'm a survivor, not vermin!), I will call that complete bullshit because my Key North by Northwest homies won't think you're one of them even if you phish with them and ripping off Mainland China and shit rye-bread suburbanite whitey color regardless of Haliburton CEO golden spooning soups.

But whatever. If you're argument is basically that the Na'vi are like less racist than your Key West whatever, then I'll concede. Yes, you are right. The Na'vi do seem to overlook the color of other (human) people's skin and their criterion for social acceptance hinges upon the inner character of the person rather than his external features, which was why they allowed Jake to join their tribe. They seem to be friendlier and more welcoming than those Key West dickholes. The Na'vi are very nice, I like them.

^______________^

[mr friendly guy]

You're being a jerk and an idiot. I do not find your idea of a joke here funny.

Did I hurt someone's feelings? Oh so sad. Well I found your friend's shitty grammar painful to read. Not to mention the piss poor argument she made. But hey, at least I answered properly the question how can he say "this is our land" in the next part of my post.

Sooo, count me with the detractors. Because filthy honkey cracker white-boy I may be, but even I find that cringe worthy. You've been on planet a month TOPS boy, you have no right to that phrase.

I am curious. How long do you have to live in a place to be able to be counted as one of its citizens?

Well, it depends on the place and where you came from.

Now, I'll admit the Key West society is insular to the point of declaring itself a Sovreign State of Mind. But I do not think that after a period as short as this whitey can call himself one of the tribe, regardless of what color he was to begin with or what color he is now.

I am curious. If counting as one of the people varies depending on the place, why the hell are you bitching about Jake being accepted in such a short time when he was accepted by an alien culture in an alien place with different values? Quit your whining before you embarrass yourself further.

[Shroom Man 777]

He is angry because the Na'vi seem to be less prone to bigotry and more accepting and welcoming to foreigners and strangers and people of non-blue colored skins than his Key West dickholes.

^_______________^

[PeZook]

The Na'Vi seem to be all about the ritual, rather than birthplace. It matches their (obvious) Native Americanesque characteristics: for most Native Americans, your defining trait was the tribe you were part of. For obvious reasons, you could only tell the tribe by things like haircut, body paint and markings on your clothes, language you spoke, etc.

Changing one's tribe happened rather often. Hell, prisoners of war were sometimes accepted into a tribe, but they had to go through all the local initiation rites.

Ironically, it was easier for a complete outsider from far, far away to join a tribe than somebody from a local area, since he had no baggage like generation-long blood feuds, and american natives only had a very vague idea of geography beyond their immediate hunting grounds.

Another thing supporting the Na'Vi mentality of "ritual first" was how they all forgave Jake's betrayal when he came to the Tree Of Souls riding the giant red dragon. He matched their legends to a tet (by doing a ritual which gets most people killed) = he's the Big Damn Hero. Because Turok would never allow a real traitor to ride him!

[hongi]

and the primitive, closer to earth, noble savages are cast as morally superior in every possible way

The natives were also quite willing to put to death Grace and Jake. I didn't get the impression that they were perfect.

Exhibiting hostile behavior towards people you have very good reason to believe have just sold you out to your enemies is not exactly unreasonable.

Neytiri was about to kill Jake, whom she didn't even know, before the floating white jellyfish thing settled on her arrow.

And whether or not they were actually perfect is immaterial; they were portrayed as sufficiently so to grate on many people who are not receptive to one with nature/noble savage themes, thus generating the backlash of people who wanted to Col. Miles McBadass Quaritch to light the space elfcats on fire.

I agree with that. The noble savage shtick is rather grating.

We see the Na'vi society through Jake's eyes, and he's only there for 3 months. The society could be rather darker than the movie leads us to believe, at least that's what I'm hoping for. I'd love to read Augustine's textbook on the Na'vi.

[PeZook]

We see the Na'vi society through Jake's eyes, and he's only there for 3 months. The society could be rather darker than the movie leads us to believe, at least that's what I'm hoping for. I'd love to read Augustine's textbook on the Na'vi.

It is pretty brutal. Notice that the first thing Sully is subject to is the tribe's chieftain wondering if the Na'Vi should kill the newcomer. Tsu'Tey constantly flies into homicidal rage, and he's considered a fine upstanding member of their society. They venerate warriorhood and martial prowess.

Supposedly the clans also make war on each other with some regularity. They're portrayed as the good guys in the movie, but only because - for all their flaws - they don't really deserve to be slaughtered en masse. Just like most people would agree that humanity's flaws don't make it deserve annihilation by some technologically superior alien power: if you were an alien watching, say, ID4, you'd also consider the movie to be about the Noble Savages beating a technologically superior yet completely evil foe, after all

[starfury]

Supposedly the clans also make war on each other with some regularity. They're portrayed as the good guys in the movie, but only because - for all their flaws - they don't really deserve to be slaughtered en masse. Just like most people would agree that humanity's flaws don't make it deserve annihilation by some technologically superior alien power: if you were an alien watching, say, ID4, you'd also consider the movie to be about the Noble Savages beating a technologically superior yet completely evil foe, after all

Or more to the Point, Skynet or the Cylons seeing themselves as superior to worthless meatbags like Humanity and putting humanity to the sword for their own safety, would they complain about noble savages beating technologically superior beings them, as I recallled most could scream fast enough about how evil Cylons are doing just that, yet suddenly the RDA is the good guy for this behavior, or the alliance of Firefly for that matter, trying to peace and order to the rim, and people would still side with the browncoats like mal instead, when even Joss Whedon outright stated that all the alliance flaws, they are not a Evil empire.

[Gramzamber]

The Na'vi are the "good guys" because the bad guys want to bulldoze their homes for magic rocks. The fact that their brutal and flawed traits are shown at all is a testiment to the fact that Cameron is not a hack and knows what he's doing.
Noble savages beating the big bad space people is trite, and some people just don't like seeing humans of whatever technological level beaten by damn dirty aliens.
But in the end, the Na'vi are an immature society. Of course they're brutal to us with their tribal law and warrior culture. That doesn't mean humans get to trample over them, by that logic a passing alien race had every right to subjigate us and take our resources in the 12th century.

[PeZook]

Well, yeah. That's what I meant: the fact they have flaws is natural, and doesn't excuse RDA dickheads in the slightest.

[Gramzamber]

Right, I mean really if the Na'vi were perfect and peaceful and danced with the trees all day I would PUKE. Sure a planet of hippies doesn't deserve death by sky people either but I just wouldn't buy it.
Yeah they live in harmony with nature and blah blah blah but honestly they have a legitimate reason to. If there is actually a planet mind and it is balancing things for you and you have the ability to interface with the fauna with your funky USB tentacles then of course you'd live in harmony with it.

[petesampras]

It is pretty brutal. Notice that the first thing Sully is subject to is the tribe's chieftain wondering if the Na'Vi should kill the newcomer. Tsu'Tey constantly flies into homicidal rage, and he's considered a fine upstanding member of their society. They venerate warriorhood and martial prowess.

Notice, however, that they don't kill him. In fact they don't kill a single human outside of battle during the movie, even allowing their surviving enemies to return home to Earth at the end. They seem to have been perfectly willing to tolerate and even accept the humans prior to the events of the movie, and seem quick to forgive and allow Ripley and co. to return later. They pride themselves as strong warriors, but appear to venerate hunting far more than martial prowess. Their society is hardly a progressive utopia, but I think brutal is going a bit far.

[PeZook]

Notice, however, that they don't kill him. In fact they don't kill a single human outside of battle during the movie, even allowing their surviving enemies to return home to Earth at the end.

Well, "pretty brutal" doesn't mean "genocidal". I was going more for the fact that the first solution to the Jake Problem that came to their mind was "Let's kill him!". Moreover, when Tsu'Tey heard Jake was a warrior, he immediately thought it was yet another reason to kill him, and some Na'Vi cheered him on. Hell, it looked as if the Omaticaya had murder of avatars (huh,can you even call it murder? ) as SOP by the time Jake got lost in the woods. It was only the oddball space-medusas that saved his ass.

They seem to have been perfectly willing to tolerate and even accept the humans prior to the events of the movie, and seem quick to forgive and allow Ripley and co. to return later.

Sigourney Grace Ripley was kind of a special case, it seems, as others pointed out: the Na'Vi knew she was an Avatar, but went to the trouble of saving her body when they were fleeing the home tree. They didn't even do that for their own chieftain.

They pride themselves as strong warriors, but appear to venerate hunting far more than martial prowess. Their society is hardly a progressive utopia, but I think brutal is going a bit far.

It's perhaps a matter of semantics, but they certainly have no qualms with violence and killing as a means to solve disputes. Again, see how Tsu'Tey could freely advocate murder and nobody batted an eye. He even fought Jake in front of everybody, and the entire tribe just patiently waited for the result instead of breaking it up. As for the difference between hunting and war, well, the skills used in both are almost the same, at least for the kind of war the Na'Vi are used to.

[Crazedwraith]

Wasn't the issue with them killing Jake not only that he was Avatar but that he was trespassing on Holy grounds? which seemed to be their major beef with him. They knew what Avatars were and considered them unholy and soulless.

[petesampras]

Well, "pretty brutal" doesn't mean "genocidal". I was going more for the fact that the first solution to the Jake Problem that came to their mind was "Let's kill him!". Moreover, when Tsu'Tey heard Jake was a warrior, he immediately thought it was yet another reason to kill him, and some Na'Vi cheered him on. Hell, it looked as if the Omaticaya had murder of avatars (huh,can you even call it murder? ) as SOP by the time Jake got lost in the woods. It was only the oddball space-medusas that saved his ass.

The fact that they consistantly fail to act on the killing option is telling. The oddball space-medusa saved his ass because she chose to interprete it that way. Even when Jake and Ripley are tied up and the Na'vi are, understandably, pissed off at the deception and destruction of their home, they are let go unharmed.

Now Tsu'Tey does have violent urges towards Jake. The reasons for that are pretty obvious and can hardly be used as a judgement on the Na'vi as a whole.

Sigourney Grace Ripley was kind of a special case, it seems, as others pointed out: the Na'Vi knew she was an Avatar, but went to the trouble of saving her body when they were fleeing the home tree. They didn't even do that for their own chieftain.

More evidence against the Na'vi being a brutal society. She was still a member of a species that had come to their world and destroyed their ancestoral home. In the absence of any other scapegoats, wouldn't she have made an obvious target for their rage?

It's perhaps a matter of semantics, but they certainly have no qualms with violence and killing as a means to solve disputes.
Again, see how Tsu'Tey could freely advocate murder and nobody batted an eye. He even fought Jake in front of everybody, and the entire tribe just patiently waited for the result instead of breaking it up. As for the difference between hunting and war, well, the skills used in both are almost the same, at least for the kind of war the Na'Vi are used to.

How often do fights between rival males occur in our society without someone breaking it up? The Na'vi don't have a police force, that's true. Hardly argument for them being brutal, though. Tsu'Tey hates Jake, but that's not evidence of the whole society being brutal.

The fact that the skills used in hunting and warfare may be the same is not what is important to the issue at hand. My point was that hunting seems far more important to the Na'vi than making war. Of course, they are not pacifists, but they are not portrayed as excessively revering of war and battles.

[Sarevok]

I dunno. The movie elegantly skips over all the uglyness of living in a primitive jungle tribe and only highlights the pretty sky and land around them. To suggest the Navi are not a brutal society compared to a first world nation today would be ludicrous. They live extremely hazardous lives in a dangerous world. They are ruled by a hereditory dictator. They got no impetus for societal change and technological progress. Of course its a shitty lifestyle. Just because some Navi willingly choose it does not make it any less shitty.

[Shroom Man 777]

Somalians live in a shitty primitive tribal society and eat khat. Let's position an asteroid over the Horn of Africa and use its orbital kinetic fusion engines to eradicate all life over there. Then we can, uh, mine all of the leprechaun gold to our heart's content.


Oh, and regarding the killing. Ha-HA-HAAAAA! Jesus, the Na'vi know the Avatars are fucking "dreamwalkers". This isn't the Matrix. If you die in an Avatar, you don't die in the real world no matter what red or blue pills you've been taking. The Na'vi fucking know this. I mean, shit, they went to school and learned English in Grace's school, which was also a friggin' trailer park airmobile home that also had Avatar mind-projection technology in it. Mang, even Blue Chick knew that that little paraplegic runt asphyxiating on ammonia was the love of her life.

The fact that the Na'vi even debate and think hard on the "killing" of what is essentially a disposable vessel, a vessel that does no harm at all to its user even when damaged or destroyed, actually counts in their fucking favor.


Heh, heh, heh. Not brutal compared to first world nations, heh. Of course they're not. First world nations aren't brutal at all because all the warring and the murdering and the killing doesn't fucking happen in their own land. Why? Because they outsource it and use their awesome first world monies to pay for the Arab shithole regimes, the billions of Chinese textile slave laborers, and the Shroomalian shitminers in Africa digging for blood diamonds, so these first world fucks end up getting fat on their crude oily fastfood blood diamond cheap lead-lined toy t-shirt iPricks. Then these same people have the gall to call those people "primitive" and "savage" when its their dollars that's perpetuating the situation. You bunch of Chocolate Kiwiis don't even realize that in Avatar, the only difference is that these modern day atrocities have been transplanted in space and instead of Chinese shitslaves or African fuckminers or Aztecs and Incans, we've got Blue Skinned Space People instead.

The fact that these "first world" and "advanced" humans are doing acts of pillaging, ethnic cleansing, genocide, and terror means that there is no grounds to call the fucking Na'vi "primitive" or "savage" or "barbaric". You're no more or less primitive or savage or civilized or barbaric or coprophagically crammed full of diarrhetic liquefied soft yellow-green shitstools whether you're shooting at a blue skinned space alien with your stupid space gun (or stupid space orbital bombardment shitpieces) while justifying to yourrself that you're so fucking advanced hot shit while they're a bunch of primitive savages, or if you're stabbing an enemy tribesman in the face with a spear in the goddamn space jungle.

[Starglider]

Or more to the Point, Skynet or the Cylons seeing themselves as superior to worthless meatbags like Humanity and putting humanity to the sword for their own safety, would they complain about noble savages beating technologically superior beings them, as I recallled most could scream fast enough about how evil Cylons are doing just that, yet suddenly the RDA is the good guy for this behavior, or the alliance of Firefly for that matter, trying to peace and order to the rim, and people would still side with the browncoats like mal instead, when even Joss Whedon outright stated that all the alliance flaws, they are not a Evil empire.

Hey, I'm entirely consistent about this, I side with Skynet*, the Cylons and the Alliance.

* At least in the original continuity, where the humans struck first.

[NecronLord]

I dunno. The movie elegantly skips over all the uglyness of living in a primitive jungle tribe and only highlights the pretty sky and land around them. To suggest the Navi are not a brutal society compared to a first world nation today would be ludicrous. They live extremely hazardous lives in a dangerous world. They are ruled by a hereditory dictator. They got no impetus for societal change and technological progress. Of course its a shitty lifestyle. Just because some Navi willingly choose it does not make it any less shitty.

Because of course, the son being slated to become the next chief means that there's nothing more to their political system than a hereditary dictatorship.



Remember, America is a Hereditary Dictatorship, and nothing more.

[Shroom Man 777]

Dictatorship? Geeze, one of the bigass points in the movie was that when Jake became one of the Na'vi, he ended up having the fucking right to speak out and have his voice heard. And unless Tsu'Tey was Blue Chick's brother and that ritualized incest is another one of the baseless out-of-nowhere allegations against the Na'vi, how can it be a hereditary dictatorship at all? The only title in Na'vi society that seems to be inherited was that of the shaman, since Blue Chick's mother was apparently one and the role is passed from generation to generation, it seems. For all we know, Blue Chick's marriage to Tsu'Tey was arranged because Tsu'Tey was appointed via popular election. Like, Tsu'Tey was democratically voted to become the next chieftain, and thus was set to marry Blue Chick.

This is unlikely, though. I bet Tsu'Tey was set to become next chieftain because of his martial prowess and hunting skills. But, so what? At least it's a fucking meritocracy.

[PeZook]

This is unlikely, though. I bet Tsu'Tey was set to become next chieftain because of his martial prowess and hunting skills. But, so what? At least it's a fucking meritocracy.

One doesn't exclude the other, since hunter-gatherers live and die based on the skill of their hunters, he could've easily won an "election" of sorts based on the fact he's a good warrior and hunter.

Historically, many Indian tribes chose their chiefs in a somewhat democratic way. Exact methods varied from tribe to tribe, though, from a popular election to some sort of elder council choosing the chief. Generally speaking, though, it was trivially easy to depose an unpopular tribe's chieftain, since the tribes were so small. AFAIK, it's like that in most tribes.

After all, if your average tribesman can get his own food, and is a warrior (like any other male), what are you going to use to terrorize a hundred of them into obedience?

[Gramzamber]

I dunno. The movie elegantly skips over all the uglyness of living in a primitive jungle tribe and only highlights the pretty sky and land around them. To suggest the Navi are not a brutal society compared to a first world nation today would be ludicrous. They live extremely hazardous lives in a dangerous world. They are ruled by a hereditory dictator.

I still don't get it. So what if they are somewhat brutal? Even if they were ruled by hereditary dictators which doesn't seem to be the case.
I don't think the movie glosses over the aspects at all, we see what we need to.

They got no impetus for societal change and technological progress. Of course its a shitty lifestyle. Just because some Navi willingly choose it does not make it any less shitty.

The drive for constant technological change is a recent thing in our society, throughout history progress has been slower and driven by specific needs. If the needs aren't there then progress isn't made. The Na'vi with their all providing ecosystem have even less of a need to progress than us, at least before humans butted in.

[Shroom Man 777]

I still don't get it. So what if they are somewhat brutal? Even if they were ruled by hereditary dictators which doesn't seem to be the case.
I don't think the movie glosses over the aspects at all, we see what we need to.

Right. Besides, the Na'vi are fucking Teletubbies if we're talking about "brutal societies" in the context of a setting where the other guys have shown themselves to be murderous sons of bitches who've got no moral compunctions against slaughter, ethnic cleansing, terror, eco-rape, murdering and pillaging. These people bitch about the Na'vi being "brutal" should look at the whores who go on about using orbital weapons and fucking Tunguska asteroids and other murderous methods to extract "crucial" resources at their convenience. Fuck em.

They got no impetus for societal change and technological progress. Of course its a shitty lifestyle. Just because some Navi willingly choose it does not make it any less shitty.

The drive for constant technological change is a recent thing in our society, throughout history progress has been slower and driven by specific needs. If the needs aren't there then progress isn't made. The Na'vi with their all providing ecosystem have even less of a need to progress than us, at least before humans butted in.

Unlike any comparable human society or environment, the Na'vi operate on a world where there IS a world-soul that is concerned with the "balance of life", where there are glowing trees that let them commune with the very fucking planetary ecosystem itself, and where they can use their very minds to tame animals at ease. Their whole spiritual values and beliefs system is actually true and real unlike the bullshit make-believe shit we human beings indulge them. Take your iPods and polyester swimming panties and stick it!

This isn't just people claiming their ways of lives to be "superior" to other ways of lives they deem "inferior" without even the barest of knowledge. This "inferior" way of life is not like anything ever seen on Earth itself at all so these judgments are even more ignorant than usual!