Avatar review thread

[NecronLord]

Just like a primitive shit-fucking Cro-Magnon killing another man so he can steal the dead mammoth corpse for food.

So what you are saying is, one man (the Na'vi) finds a dead mammoth (mineral resources), but he has just eaten so he doesn't need it. Another man who is starving to death (the humans) comes along and pleads to be allowed to carve up the corpse for meat.

Negatory. There is no, repeat no, evidence in the film that Unobtanium is essential for the humans' survival or prosperity. For all you know in the film, the stuff is actually ground up and snorted like crack, and that is why it is so valuable.

Secondary evidence suggests it is used for making more efficient maglevs, which while useful, does not mean that human society will collapse. It is also used for an FTL communication system that makes morse code look high bandwidth, and which is therefore only essential for communicating with... the mining expedition on Pandora.

It is not analogous to starving to death. It is much more like one primitive finding a diamond, and another beating his skull in to take it so he can wear it 'round his neck.

Conversely, Home Tree is essential for the continuance of the Omaticaya tribe's lifestyle, which beyond providing them with shelter, is also the workplace of their craftsmen, home of their various beasties, and the staging ground for their entire economy. At best, the mining operation would leave them destitute. At best.

[Shroom Man 777]

Just like a primitive shit-fucking Cro-Magnon killing another man so he can steal the dead mammoth corpse for food.

So what you are saying is, one man (the Na'vi) finds a dead mammoth (mineral resources), but he has just eaten so he doesn't need it. Another man who is starving to death (the humans) comes along and pleads to be allowed to carve up the corpse for meat. The first man refuses because it would make a mess. A fight breaks out and the starving man looks like he will win, until the first man's pet tiger arrives and kills him. The first man goes back to staring at the dead mammoth, which is still useless to him.

You are seriously saying that in this scenario the starving man is motivated by 'just greed'?

Except that the Cro-Magnon (humans) is not starving to death, but is in fact fucking morbidly obese. That Cro-Magnon is also quite capable of hunting and killing other mammoths for food, or he can go eat some fruit or subsist on rodents.

Now, if everyone is convinced humans must not be negotiated with, it might not be possible. In which case the next best option is deep shaft mining, with fortified compounds and a best effort made to hack or jam the planetary sentience to negate the threat.

And that is entirely the fault of the RDA.

If this doesn't work, and operations are impossible due to persistent native and wildlife attacks, then the minimum necessary area to serve as a killzone should be reduced to ash by multiple small impactors. Emplaced artillery and/or ortillery strikes will wipe out anything attempting to cross the zone. If for some reason this perimeter cannot be secured (e.g. the entire planet really is suicidal and prepared to throw millions of bodies into the killzone), then megaton level strikes on neural nodes will be necessary until resistance is subdued. At no point is an extinction event necessary to continue mining.

Nobody has the right to kill anyone for shit that's not necessary for survival. This valuation of resources over the lives of people is exactly why our world is in such shit it is in today, which ironically only further reinforces the message of the Avatar movie.

Of course an extinction event is probably cheaper, and 'humanity RAR' wankers like Darth Hoth will no doubt advocate exterminating the Na'vi just due to the faint possibility of them becoming a real threat to humanity in the future, but those are completely unethical reasons to lob a dinosaur killer. Sadly though that doesn't invalidate the fanfic scenario, because real human governments are full of deeply unethical people (particular in times of strife an desperation) - so I would not be surprised at all if that is the actual outcome.

These same people would probably write fanfics about victorious Nazi Germans, or Apartheid South African Dorkkas or something taking off to space to put Africaliens under more apartheid.

[K. A. Pital]

Another man who is starving to death

Another man whose pet (or fourth quarter profits) is starving to death kills the guy for the mammoth. Like noted, nothing in the movie suggests unobtanium is important for anything but RDA's profits.

But I am sure that the needs of the furnaces of glorious Earth industrial capitalism surely justify forced population transfer, and failing that, genocide. You could have found a few supporters, but I believe not many, were the talk about humans and not aliens indeed.

You are seriously saying that in this scenario the starving man is motivated by 'just greed'?

Less efficient antigravity and lower extraction profits (or even losses) for RDA =! death of starvation or collapse of mankind.

If it were a matter of survival, humans would have occupied entire Pandora with brute force and take the minerals under the gunpoint of their government and with full military strength instead of sending a few corporate assholes and some PMCs.

[mr friendly guy]

Hey guys, don't you know, Superman is a race traitor to Kryptonians. Superman II elegantly skips over all the uglyness of living in a primitive world's society and only highlights the pretty Niagara falls and Margot Kidder. How dare he side with the stupid humans with their religious bigotry, crime and wars. Just because humans choose that lifestyle doesn't mean that its shitty compare to what Krypton was like.

Now we must write fanfiction were Nod and Ursa distract the traitorous Superman while General Zod pushes the moon into the Earth causing enormous ecological disaster. Naturally it will be difficult to tell where the actual story starts and pseudo justification for genocide begins, but you know might makes right and all that.

[Starglider]

Less efficient antigravity and lower extraction profits (or even losses) for RDA =! death of starvation or collapse of mankind.

Sully specifically describes Earth as a 'dying world'. How much clearer can it get? The books and interviews expand on this; earth has a population of 20 billion almost all dependent on artificially produced food. The power generation and transport infrastructure has become dependent on room temperature superconductors as the only way to handle the demands. Wars and riots are already common due to energy shortages and the total termination of the mining operation is expected to cause global collapse and billions of deaths.

Of course this doesn't make much sense in terms of real world science, it's not like liquid nitrogen is impossible to work with, and being able to build massive starships implies that building solar power satellites would be trivial, but it's canon.

If it were a matter of survival, humans would have occupied entire Pandora with brute force and take the minerals under the gunpoint of their government and with full military strength instead of sending a few corporate assholes and some PMCs.

Then why hasn't the contemporary United States, which is completely dependent on oil imports, invaded and occupied Saudi Arabia and Venezuela? The RDA had everyone convinced that things were under control, that the natives posed no real threat and that there was no need for a military force. You can be sure that things will be seen differently after the events of the movie.

[hongi]

Sully specifically describes Earth as a 'dying world'. How much clearer can it get? The books and interviews expand on this; earth has a population of 20 billion almost all dependent on artificially produced food. The power generation and transport infrastructure has become dependent on room temperature superconductors as the only way to handle the demands. Wars and riots are already common due to energy shortages and the total termination of the mining operation is expected to cause global collapse and billions of deaths.

Of course this doesn't make much sense in terms of real world science, it's not like liquid nitrogen is impossible to work with, and being able to build massive starships implies that building solar power satellites would be trivial, but it's canon.

He also said that the humans killed their mother and there was no green, even though he fought in 'rough bush' in Venezuela. He's exaggerating and in context, he's obviously talking about a world that is ecologically devastated.

Also, sources for your claims that unobtanium is necessary for Earth's survival. I mean page numbers and interview links.

[Shroom Man 777]

Dying world is hyperbole. For all we know he can be talking about how, after the USMC invaded Venezuela, the last remnants of the Amazon rainforest got turned into double-ply tissue paper used to wipe American foreign interests while coral bleaching has made coral reefs extinct and stuff. You know, the stuff that's happening today that's pretty much a massive man-made extinction-level-event in terms of species decimation in modern present-day Earth?

(Like how Sully talks about Earth having 'no green' left while he himself served in the 'mean bush' of Venezuela. Unless those bushes weren't colored green.)

[Rye]

Less efficient antigravity and lower extraction profits (or even losses) for RDA =! death of starvation or collapse of mankind.

Sully specifically describes Earth as a 'dying world'. How much clearer can it get?

It's already been mentioned that people refer to this world as a "dying world" too, and it's also been pointed out that if Unobtainium were vital to the survival of the human race, it wouldn't be private contractors going for it, unless the world imploded into some sort of corporatocracy or working anarcho-capitalist state. That bit of the story is clearly Jake revelling in the douchebags being sent back to the mess they made and will continue to make because they don't learn. Justice.

Then why hasn't the contemporary United States, which is completely dependent on oil imports, invaded and occupied Saudi Arabia and Venezuela?

If it ever becomes population-crashingly vital, you think it won't?

[mr friendly guy]

Sully specifically describes Earth as a 'dying world'. How much clearer can it get?

And Harry Kim asked what are you trying to do, blow up a small planet. Clearly the UFP have planet busting tech. How much more clearer can it get? Why do these stupid Warsies insist on this dialogue vs visual thing?

The books and interviews expand on this; earth has a population of 20 billion almost all dependent on artificially produced food. The power generation and transport infrastructure has become dependent on room temperature superconductors as the only way to handle the demands. Wars and riots are already common due to energy shortages and the total termination of the mining operation is expected to cause global collapse and billions of deaths.

How do you get from shortage of food to needing the unobtanium at the rate Selfridge was wanting, given you know a) humans already mine the stuff from other than the Na'vi village, we have other means of power generation and the mining operation wouldn't have collapsed if military wanker boys decided not to attack the Na'vi village.

[K. A. Pital]

Less efficient antigravity and lower extraction profits (or even losses) for RDA =! death of starvation or collapse of mankind.

Sully specifically describes Earth as a 'dying world'.

So what? That's a figure of speech from someone who loves nature and primitives - and even if not, how is unobtainium (industrial resource) going to help Earth, which, as it is implied, is heavily ravaged by INDUSTRIAL POLLUTION?

The books and interviews expand on this; earth has a population of 20 billion almost all dependent on artificially produced food. The power generation and transport infrastructure has become dependent on room temperature superconductors as the only way to handle the demands. Wars and riots are already common due to energy shortages and the total termination of the mining operation is expected to cause global collapse and billions of deaths.

I don't care for "books" which are for total nerd idiots looking to justify the mass murder by corporate assholes and PMCs who are clearly set up as bad guys by Cameron without any ambiguity whatsoever. Don't like the fairytale as it is told? Here is the cheese.

but it's canon.

I saw the movie, which is the primary source, and it told nothing about it. Nor me, neither anyone in Russia would be bothered with buying and reading some schlock literature sold as "Expanded Universe" to the Avatar movie, and the movie story is complete. It also has nothing about utter necessity of the mineral. You'd think RDA assholes would have uttered something like "It's for the SURVIVAL of mankind", but it was just not there.

I couldnt' give a fucking crap about some fans of moral grey areas and morally ambigious arms twisting and writing schlock to make the movie equivalent of Nazis or Native American conquistadors look "not so bad as they did in the movie". I already clarified that.

Then why hasn't the contemporary United States, which is completely dependent on oil imports

The survival of humans in the USA is not dependent on oil imports. Duh. Yeah, it's car culture - perhaps. Too bad you'll have to lose that crap.

[Eldy]

The power generation and transport infrastructure has become dependent on room temperature superconductors as the only way to handle the demands. Wars and riots are already common due to energy shortages and the total termination of the mining operation is expected to cause global collapse and billions of deaths.

As has been pointed out, there were numerous other places the humans could have mined for Unobtanium even if we accept the books as canon. Additionally, the books (specifically James Cameron's Avatar: A Confidential Report on the Biological and Social History of Pandora) states that superconductor technology is essential to help fuel earth's economy, not the survival of the human race. It also points out that there are other superconductors (though not as efficient as Unobtanium) and that the RDA has suppressed research to develop alternatives to Unobtanium, implying that an alternative could be developed.

The book lists several things that Unobtanium is is essential for: power generation, transportation (the Maglev trains), interstellar travel, Superluminal Communications, and computer hyperchip manufacturing. In at least some of those cases alternatives could probably be developed and in others the technology is only necessary to get to Pandora to ... mine Unobtanium in the first place. The fact that humans were able to get to Pandora before discovering Unobtanium suggests that it's not as essential as one might think.

I believe this makes sense because the book is ostensibly a collection of RDA documents compiled (with some commentary) by anti-RDA activists. Thus just about everything in the book is biased either pro-RDA or anti-RDA and should be taken with a grain of salt.

[K. A. Pital]

The fact that humans were able to get to Pandora before discovering Unobtanium suggests that it's not as essential as one might think.

Indeed. It proves that they had a highly industrialized society which could support interstellar spaceflight (and you don't have money waste on interstellar spaceflight if you are starving - the life level of humanity is probably several times higher than it is today).

Oh, and the book is not written from an "observer viewpoint"? Throw that garbage right out. We have the movie which displays objective facts. The objectively SEEN on screen facts are such that RDA people never mentioned even once the dire necessity of unobtanium for human survival, that human economy supported the voyage in the first place, and the only justification ever offered in the movie by RDA administration is profits. No "human welfare", no "Earth dies if we don't mine" - nothing. Only profits. The point is repeatedly driven home as RDA chief speaks about the cost of mineral, then speaks about investor's profits. On all these occasions he could have mentioned at least somehow the necessity of mineral for humans. He did not.

This is sufficient and direct-from-movie evidence suggesting that unobtanium was not needed for human survival. The lowering of Earth's very high life level (it's undeniably very high, Earth is highly industrialized) is not a reason for slaughtering the Na'Vi at all.

[LaCroix]

You people are forgetting something.

Unobtanion is not OIL. It is NOT used to produce energy, and it is not burnt/whatever.

It's a superconductor. It is used to make a MORE EFFICIENT space drive. So don't bitch and moan that earth will die without it.
It's just to make better ships who will be a bit better and much more expensive.

RDA is only mining material for space Ferraris.

[Shroom Man 777]

I thought we dealt with unobtanium and its vitality to human life pages ago. Are we also going to have a rehash of people feebly going about how the Na'vi are primitive and barbaric (and how this somehow justifies atrocity), before the ignorance and hypocrisy of accusing "primitive" people of savagery when the "advanced" people are the ones doing violence is smacked down again?

[AniThyng]

I suppose it's telling that so far except for Saverok, pretty much everyone who's on the RDA side is from a wealthy First World Nation. Your perspective chances somewhat if you are from a country whose national history is one where the East India Company raped the landscape (for Tin, mind you. TIN.), co-opted the local rulers and surpressed revolt with military force.

Though on the other hand, they built schools. And roads. And hospitals. And what do you know, I speak english. But then again, the ungrateful British educated elite ultimately still came to demand the British grant independence and self rule. Go figure. Traitors.

[Darwin]

Fuck me, it's clear here that the humans/RDA are the primitives in this scenario, and the Na'vi are some damn post-singularity remains of a race advanced enough to design an entire fucking ecosystem to support their back-to-nature needs and give them a lush paradise on which to live. The bio-USB ports are a dead fucking giveaway.

RDA=violent fucking primitives who notice your meticulously-built infrastructure/technology is full of advanced materials and are perfectly willing to stab you in the face and steal it.

It's the space equivalent of getting stabbed for wearing nice clothes.

[starfury]

These same people would probably write fanfics about victorious Nazi Germans, or Apartheid South African Dorkkas or something taking off to space to put Africaliens under more apartheid

You mean the Draka, since the latter sort of exist already, though they were honest monsters and simply switched from merely white racism to Draka superiority over second rate humans peroid.

[Serafina]

Fuck me, it's clear here that the humans/RDA are the primitives in this scenario, and the Na'vi are some damn post-singularity remains of a race advanced enough to design an entire fucking ecosystem to support their back-to-nature needs and give them a lush paradise on which to live. The bio-USB ports are a dead fucking giveaway.

RDA=violent fucking primitives who notice your meticulously-built infrastructure/technology is full of advanced materials and are perfectly willing to stab you in the face and steal it.

It's the space equivalent of getting stabbed for wearing nice clothes.

Well, then their post-singularity society certainly sucks...

I mean, putting aside the fact that they are utterly defenseless against any spaceborne thread -their lifestyle is not exactly that great. Hunting and gathering may be fun, but not if a lot of your people die doing it.

[Eldy]

their lifestyle is not exactly that great. Hunting and gathering may be fun, but not if a lot of your people die doing it.

As has been pointed out they are at a level of integration with their environment that humans can never have. When they say things like "Eywa will provide" they are saying the truth. This, plus the lack of evidence in the film that lots of them die on a regular basis, leads me to think that you're exaggerating how bad their lifestyle is.

[Starglider]

Fuck me, it's clear here that the humans/RDA are the primitives in this scenario, and the Na'vi are some damn post-singularity remains of a race

It's the space equivalent of getting stabbed for wearing nice clothes.

Bioengineering Pandora is the kind of thing that post-Singularity intelligences with a black sense of humor might do for their luddites, who refused to go into space or to have anything to do with cybernetics and AI. Set up their imagined utopian primitive paradise - even use advanced genetic engineering to make all their bullshit spirituality actually mean something - then clear out of the system. It's all shiny and happy and nobly savage for millenia until either aliens or a random space rock end the party. Didn't leave them with any orbital defences of course - hey, they're the ones who said technology was evil.

[starfury]

Bioengineering Pandora is the kind of thing that post-Singularity intelligences with a black sense of humor might do for their luddites, who refused to go into space or to have anything to do with cybernetics and AI. Set up their imagined utopian primitive paradise - even use advanced genetic engineering to make all their bullshit spirituality actually mean something - then clear out of the system. It's all shiny and happy and nobly savage for millenia until either aliens or a random space rock end the party. Didn't leave them with any orbital defences of course - hey, they're the ones who said technology was evil.

Since the Navi does remind people already resemble Wood Elves and Exodite Eldar, the analogy is quite close, the main difference being the Craftworld Eldar actually gives a damm for them, as it does help from being corrupted by Chaos, then again Biel-Tan Craftworld seems to have full-time job babysitting/rescuing them whenever Orks or humans appear and overunn them. They had better excuse since they wanted these shiny new worlds for themselves as opposed merely being Luddites.

[Serafina]

their lifestyle is not exactly that great. Hunting and gathering may be fun, but not if a lot of your people die doing it.

As has been pointed out they are at a level of integration with their environment that humans can never have. When they say things like "Eywa will provide" they are saying the truth. This, plus the lack of evidence in the film that lots of them die on a regular basis, leads me to think that you're exaggerating how bad their lifestyle is.

They outright state that you have to "learn fast or die".
The taming of a flying beast is very dangerous, and every Hunter has to attempt it.
They do not have an "easy life" by any meaning of the word.

So yeah, Surlethes version makes a lot of sense .

[NecronLord]

Then why hasn't the contemporary United States, which is completely dependent on oil imports, invaded and occupied Saudi Arabia and Venezuela?

1. They do. The United States maintains military forces in several oil producing countries, including in the past, Saudi Arabia, and at present, in Qatar and Iraq. Certainly they do that with domestic government cooperation, but they nonetheless have forces in place to ensure compliance if the necessity were to arise.
2. Other nuclear powers exist. Venezuela pursues relations with the Russian Federation, to the point of having a joint Sovi Russian-Venezuelan nuclear energy program. There is no equivalent deterrent force in Avatar-verse; we don't see other alien traders offering to help the Na'vi, do we?
3. The United States is not 'completely' dependant on imports. You may have heard of these places called Texas and Alaska? There is also this thing called the United States Strategic Petroleum Reserve. While it is dependant on imports, it has a much greater domestic supply than Earth has of Unobtanium (none).

If Unobtanium were as important as petroleum, then there would be interests like the US SPR represented on Pandora, as well as flagged Earth military forces.

This can be avoided if one assumes that by being internationally neutral, the RDA is seen as a political compromise, but there nonetheless seems to be no UN-type body or government observers present in the field, which seems... unlikely, even with the decade transport time.


Anyway, there's no reason to think it's not milled down to a fine silver powder that's snorted off prostitute's bellies by the reality TV star celebrities of the future.

[NecronLord]

Since the Navi does remind people already resemble Wood Elves and Exodite Eldar, the analogy is quite close, the main difference being the Craftworld Eldar actually gives a damm for them, as it does help from being corrupted by Chaos, then again Biel-Tan Craftworld seems to have full-time job babysitting/rescuing them whenever Orks or humans appear and overunn them. They had better excuse since they wanted these shiny new worlds for themselves as opposed merely being Luddites.

Without extending this little hijack, the Exodites are far more capable than the Na'vi. They have domestic gravtank and combat production production capacity, and a full suite of Eldar technology, including access to the webway. There's no reason to think that either faction you mention has substantial success against exodite forces when numbers are even. As far as we can tell, the Exodites are amongst the most successful societies of Eldar.

[Eldy]

They outright state that you have to "learn fast or die".

No, Jake says that learning from Neytiri (someone who, you may have noticed, didn't want to teach him) was "learn fast or die". This may just be Neytiri's attitude, or it might have been because Jake was an adult and an avatar and thus she wasn't going to cut him slack.

The taming of a flying beast is very dangerous, and every Hunter has to attempt it.

They have to climb a lot and then try to wrestle a banshee to the ground. The Na'vi seem quite capable of climbing around on various precarious objects (remember the spiral structure inside Hometree?) and only the banshee that chooses them will try to harm them. Sure, it's dangerous, but that doesn't mean a lot of them died. We don't see any prospective hunters get killed in the trial, and not every Na'vi is a hunter anyway.

Do you have any other evidence?