Netanyahu: "We'll surround Israel with a Fence!"

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Netanyahu: "We'll surround Israel with a Fence!"

Post by The Grim Squeaker »

BBC wrote:Israel to construct Egypt barrier
Israel's government has approved plans for the construction of a barrier along its border with Egypt in a bid to keep out illegal migrants and militants.


It will be built along two parts of the border - near the Red Sea city of Eilat and on the edge of the Gaza Strip.

PM Benjamin Netanyahu said the decision was taken to secure Israel's Jewish and democratic character, but that refugees would still be allowed to seek entry.

In recent years, thousands of migrants have crossed into Israel via Egypt.

At least 17 migrants, mostly African, have been killed since May by Egyptian police, who say they are trying to stop people trafficking.

Eritrea is the most common country of origin for people trying to cross illegally from Egypt to Israel, followed by Ethiopia and Sudan.

'Illegal aliens'

On Sunday, Mr Netanyahu said he had approved the construction of sections of barrier that would block the main infiltration routes along the 266km (166-mile) frontier, and the installation of advanced surveillance equipment.

The project is set to cost $270m and take two years to complete.

"I took the decision to close Israel's southern border to infiltrators and terrorists. This is a strategic decision to secure Israel's Jewish and democratic character," the prime ministers said in a statement.

Mr Netanyahu said Israel would "remain open to refugees" from conflict zones, but added: "We cannot let tens of thousands of illegal workers infiltrate into Israel through the southern border and inundate our country with illegal aliens."

Egyptian security sources said Israel had not informed them of its plans, but that they would not object so long as the barrier was built on Israeli soil.

Israel has also been building a controversial barrier in and around the occupied West Bank in recent years. It says it is needed to defend Israeli citizens from attacks by militants. Palestinians, however, consider it a land grab.

In 2004, the International Court of Justice in The Hague issued an advisory ruling that the barrier was illegal and should be removed.

Egypt is meanwhile building an underground barrier along its border with Gaza to stem the smuggling of weapons through tunnels.

Story from BBC NEWS:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/pr/fr/-/2/hi/m ... 451085.stm

Published: 2010/01/11 01:49:24 GMT

© BBC MMX
The quote is from the Israeli newspapers. On one hand, it's a sad testament to the "fortress state" mentality, on the other hand, it makes a fair bit of sense - it's very easy for Gazans to go out through the Egyptian border then go back through the massive border. There's also massive amounts of drug and people (read - slaves, "wives") trafficking done through the area by Israeli Bedouins' with their Egyptian counterparts - this should help cut that back as well.
Policing a border that large isn't very practical, especially what with it being a sparsely inhabited mountainous region.
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Re: Netanyahu: "We'll surround Israel with a Fence!"

Post by eyl »

The Grim Squeaker wrote:The quote is from the Israeli newspapers. On one hand, it's a sad testament to the "fortress state" mentality, on the other hand, it makes a fair bit of sense - it's very easy for Gazans to go out through the Egyptian border then go back through the massive border. There's also massive amounts of drug and people (read - slaves, "wives") trafficking done through the area by Israeli Bedouins' with their Egyptian counterparts - this should help cut that back as well.
Policing a border that large isn't very practical, especially what with it being a sparsely inhabited mountainous region.
It's not quite that easy for Gazans to slip through the border on the "U route" (Gaza->Egypt->Israel) - a closer eye is kept on the border in that region.

However, it was my impression that the border couldn't be fenced because, in previous attempts, the sections in the wadis were carried off by flash floods during the winter. I've seen no mention of how they intend to get around that.
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Re: Netanyahu: "We'll surround Israel with a Fence!"

Post by The Grim Squeaker »

eyl wrote:
The Grim Squeaker wrote:The quote is from the Israeli newspapers. On one hand, it's a sad testament to the "fortress state" mentality, on the other hand, it makes a fair bit of sense - it's very easy for Gazans to go out through the Egyptian border then go back through the massive border. There's also massive amounts of drug and people (read - slaves, "wives") trafficking done through the area by Israeli Bedouins' with their Egyptian counterparts - this should help cut that back as well.
Policing a border that large isn't very practical, especially what with it being a sparsely inhabited mountainous region.
It's not quite that easy for Gazans to slip through the border on the "U route" (Gaza->Egypt->Israel) - a closer eye is kept on the border in that region.
Well, yeah, but it's still a damn big border and requires a lot of resources (more than are available) to monitor.
As for observations, from what i've been told, not by anyone official mind you, a lot of the bedouin slave/drug trafficking isn't as harshly cracked down on as if it were Jews doing it due to the whole "watching the border from both sides" thing.
However, it was my impression that the border couldn't be fenced because, in previous attempts, the sections in the wadis were carried off by flash floods during the winter. I've seen no mention of how they intend to get around that.
Cameras on high rocks? Wires? Motion detectors?
Even if you do leave those areas unfenced, it still saves a lot of time and manpower.
I wonder how much of the barrier actually will be on the level of the security fence (I.E cameras, motion detectors, active watchers, etc') as opposed to something more US style.. (Simple wall).

A big problem is simply all the refugees from Africa moving into Israel since they know that the Israelis won't shoot/abuse/rob them, unlike the Egyptians (and once they're here, it's not that hard to stay here, especially due to PR issues over kicking poor black humanitarian refugees out of the country in the Israeli press). And there are a lot of them, the problem's going to get worse too! (the numbers have been growing rapidly, though I lack a handy source).
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Re: Netanyahu: "We'll surround Israel with a Fence!"

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I'm surprised they're heading into Israel, as opposed to the usual path northward to try and get into Europe.
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Re: Netanyahu: "We'll surround Israel with a Fence!"

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Guardsman Bass wrote:I'm surprised they're heading into Israel, as opposed to the usual path northward to try and get into Europe.
Distance. There's just a short land border to get to Egypt or Israel, while getting to Europe involves longer distances and boats. (and the Europeans can easily turn the boats around).
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Re: Netanyahu: "We'll surround Israel with a Fence!"

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This is a strategic decision to secure Israel's Jewish...character," the prime ministers said in a statement.
This statement is what I have a problem with.
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Re: Netanyahu: "We'll surround Israel with a Fence!"

Post by The Grim Squeaker »

Bellator wrote:
This is a strategic decision to secure Israel's Jewish...character," the prime ministers said in a statement.
This statement is what I have a problem with.
Israel's been defined as a democratic jewish state since it's conception. If it'll make you feel any better, it was based on jewishness as a nationality rather than religion or specific ethnicity, hence the inclusion of Ethiopians, Russians as well as European Ashkenazis. Just image he said "China's confucian culture and values" or "Japan's own people" or "America based on baseball, apple pie etc'".
In other words, it's not politically correct if it's not said by any states that don't have a cultural/ethnic supermajority :P.
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Re: Netanyahu: "We'll surround Israel with a Fence!"

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While the US-Mexico border is far more enormous, it does give an idea of the problems with fencing a border and its efficacy (that is to say, it is expensive and doesn't seem to deter illegal immigrants that much). However, given that the reasons for illegal immigration seem to be a bit different then the reasons in the US, it might be harder to prosecute the 'end-users' of illegal immigrants in Israel then the US (men getting more wives vs. large corporations trying to get the cheapest labor available).
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Re: Netanyahu: "We'll surround Israel with a Fence!"

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If Israel continues to humiliate other nations and their ambassadors, fencing themselves in might be a smart idea. It certainly is no more stupid than to publicly humiliate other countries.
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Re: Netanyahu: "We'll surround Israel with a Fence!"

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The Grim Squeaker wrote: Israel's been defined as a democratic jewish state since it's conception.


We're all reasonable people here. It seems so obvious to me that the concept of Israel as a Jewish state disenfranchises non-Jewish Israelis. I don't understand why there isn't more opposition, or at least more uncomfortable shuffling of the feet among Israel's supporters about this issue. How can non-Jewish Israelis like the Druze and Arabs ever successfully integrate if their country is a state for one ethnicity?
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Re: Netanyahu: "We'll surround Israel with a Fence!"

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Exactly. Imagine the shitstorm if Germany would halt immigration in order to secure Germany's white or Christian character.

And even to apologists who claim "Jewish" in this context is a nationality, not an etnicity/religion, and ignoring for the moment the large number of Muslim Israelis who Israel itself doesn't consider to be Jewish, it would still create a shitstorm if the US would halt immigration from Mexico using the reasoning that it would make the US less American if it let Mexicans in.

But since it's Israel, nobody seems to have a problem with it.
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Re: Netanyahu: "We'll surround Israel with a Fence!"

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Does the concept of France as a French state disenfranchise the North African immigrants who live there? Does the fact that Germany is a German state mean that the Turks are second-class citizens? Does anyone believe that a European country would drop its native language and rearrange institutions to accommodate foreign immigrants, or define its character on the basis of demographic changes? And of course we have cases like Mexico where even naturalized citizens are denied the same rights as natives, or Malaysia where a particular religiously-defined majority group is allowed to define the state as theirs and discriminate against the other 40% of the population. That Israel is in a neighborhood where all its neighbors have no intention whatsoever of allowing their nature as Muslim states to be called into question should go without needing to be said.

Now if someone wants to analyze how Israel treats non-Jewish citizens compared to Jewish citizens, both in law and in practice, that is one thing. Blanket statements that it necessarily discriminates against non-Jewish citizens by proclaiming itself a Jewish state merely makes a criticism of all nation-states that retain an ethnic character.
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Re: Netanyahu: "We'll surround Israel with a Fence!"

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Except French and German are nationalities every bit as much as they are ethnicities - in fact, most people would probably associate French and German with nationalities before they associate them with races.

But where is this country called Jewland, where all of the Jewish people live? I know of a country called Israel where the major ethnic group is Jewish, but the nationality is Israeli.

Perhaps Australia should turn Australia into a democratic Anglo state, since, you know, declaring it an Anglo state wouldn't disenfranchise the Asians and the Indians and the Germans and the Aborigines and the Greeks and the Italians living there, just as long as they don't make any discriminatory laws or anything like that.
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Re: Netanyahu: "We'll surround Israel with a Fence!"

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A. Despite people trying to claim otherwise, "Jewish" is not a designation for a nationality. It is an etnic and/or religious designation. Israel itself does not consider it's Muslim citizens to be "Jewish", but they are still "Israeli" like their Jewish neighbours.
B. France does not halt immigration in order to "secure France's <insert religious/etnic designation> character".
C. I'm sure there are 3rd world countries out there that do behave in a similar fashion, and are likely universally condemned for doing so. Israel is not a 3rd world nation.

I see Israel apologists frequently make claims like this, but it just doesn't hold water. Being a Jew is not the same as being an Israeli. And I find the objection that letting immigrant in result in making Israel less Jewish to be rather offensive. Even if it did, so fucking what if that makes Israel less Jewish?

Now, there are plenty of valid arguments for restricting immigration. Xenophobia just isn't one of them.
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Re: Netanyahu: "We'll surround Israel with a Fence!"

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MarshalPurnell wrote:Does the concept of France as a French state disenfranchise the North African immigrants who live there? Does the fact that Germany is a German state mean that the Turks are second-class citizens? Does anyone believe that a European country would drop its native language and rearrange institutions to accommodate foreign immigrants, or define its character on the basis of demographic changes? And of course we have cases like Mexico where even naturalized citizens are denied the same rights as natives, or Malaysia where a particular religiously-defined majority group is allowed to define the state as theirs and discriminate against the other 40% of the population. That Israel is in a neighborhood where all its neighbors have no intention whatsoever of allowing their nature as Muslim states to be called into question should go without needing to be said.

Now if someone wants to analyze how Israel treats non-Jewish citizens compared to Jewish citizens, both in law and in practice, that is one thing. Blanket statements that it necessarily discriminates against non-Jewish citizens by proclaiming itself a Jewish state merely makes a criticism of all nation-states that retain an ethnic character.
Find me a segment from the French constitution/French law declaring France a French state, or similarly for Germany. What is the context for the rights denied naturalized Mexican citizens? After all, the US does the same thing in forbidding naturalized citizens to serve as President. Furthermore, French and German can also be seen as cultural, rather than ethnic/"national" definitions. "Muslim", meanwhile, is not a recognized ethnic group, and it is possible to join Islam freely, as well as leave it of your own free will. The comparison to ethnicity is flawed. Israel itself, when it was declared a Jewish, democratic state, could not have been referring to a vague national or cultural definition, as this was put forth in the Declaration of the Establishment of the State of Israel, before Israel was an established country. Nowadays, that may have changed, but there continues to be discrimination on religious grounds.

However, the context of "Jewishness" when applied to Israel is supposedly national, rather than cultural, religious, or ethnic. This makes matters tricky. The US State Department indicates here that the primary definition of Jewishness for residency rights is ethnic and religious. If you are the child of a female convert who is born after her conversion, you may receive right of residency. No other relatives of converts may do so. Further, there is a definite bias against non-Orthodox traditions by the Israeli government, including a lack of recognition for any conversions via non-Orthodox groups, a ban on recognition of marriages performed by non-Orthodox rabbis, and a ban on burial within the state Jewish cemeteries of persons not Jewish by Orthodox standards. It seems that there is a clear bias in favor of one particular branch of Judaism. Speaking of marriage, all secular, interfaith, and marriages performed by unrecognized religious groups are banned. They recognize marriages performed outside of Israel, however, allowing atheists, Buddhists, Hindus, Reform, Conservative, and Reconstructionist Jews, and a number of evangelical Christian denominations to simply hop over to Cyprus for a quick marriage and then head back home to Israel.

The Israeli government refuses to protect any non-Jewish holy sites, recognizing only 137 Jewish sites. To be absolutely fair, the 1967 Protection of Holy Sites act allows the protection of any holy sites of any faith within Israel, so it is simply the fault of the ruling governments since then. They ban mixed-gender prayer services at religious sites for Jews, once again discriminating in favor of the Orthodox groups. Note that Orthodox groups only number about 17 percent of all of Israel's population, being outnumbered by non-Jews significantly. (This is only self-identified Orthodox individuals, so the number that would be considered Orthodox might be higher.) The government specifically funds the construction of synagogues, while only providing, by its own admittance, maintenance funds for churches and mosques, and at a significantly lower rate than synagogues. Further, 96 percent of all Jewish religious education funding went to Orthodox and ultra-Orthodox schools. Arab schools do provide courses in Islam and Christianity, but government funding for such courses is proportionally less than for religious courses in Jewish schools.

All IDF Jewish chaplains are Orthodox. While they lack any Muslim or Christian chaplains, the government states that the small proportion of Muslim and Christian volunteers and the frequent home leave received by soldiers in the IDF allows such soldiers spiritual access. Note that the Right of Return uses criteria for Jewishness that are lighter than the criteria used for full citizenship, which are based on Orthodox definitions of Jewishness. In other words, it is possible to move to Israel under the Right of Return and be forbidden full citizenship unless you convert to Orthodox Judaism. The criteria for the Right of Return are ethnic as well as religious, with spouses, children, grandchildren, children-in-law and grandchildren-in-law of a Jew being eligible. Thankfully, the criteria are more open than the traditional means of inheritance through the mother, and refer to Jewish identity rather than "Jewishness".

The State Department is clear that the Israeli government discriminates against non-Jews and non-Orthodox Jews, and continues to do so. The government has been unable to adequately establish civil cemeteries, despite 310,000 people who immigrated under the Law of Return being forbidden from marriage, divorce, or burial within a Jewish cemetery thanks to them not meeting Orthodox criteria. This is roughly 4.2 percent of the entire population, or 5.6 percent of the Jewish population. That is somewhat larger, by four times, of a proportion than the Native American population within the US. It is slightly smaller of a proportion than the percentage of Asians within the US. Religious minorities received four percent of the funding for religious services and institutions in 2008 despite being twenty percent of the population.

These are all entirely within the borders of Israel proper, and do not involve the Occupied Territories. The idea that Israel defines Jewishness as a vague concept that encapsulates Christians, Muslims, and other religious minorities seems at odds with this evidence, indeed, almost indefensible, given the narrower definitions of "Jew" used by the Israeli government. Finally, the ad hominem tu quoque is a fallacy, rather than a defense. The poor behavior of Malaysia on religious freedom or the US on immigration reform does not excuse any such instances of the same by Israel, no more than political imprisonment by the US government is exonerated by China doing the same.
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Re: Netanyahu: "We'll surround Israel with a Fence!"

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Thanas wrote:If Israel continues to humiliate other nations and their ambassadors, fencing themselves in might be a smart idea. It certainly is no more stupid than to publicly humiliate other countries.

I read about that.
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Re: Netanyahu: "We'll surround Israel with a Fence!"

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Neither France nor Germany are in a position where their majority populations will be replaced by Arab-speaking Muslims. Does anyone in their right mind imagine that either government would ever allow such a thing? France devotes significant and tireless effort to protecting its "cultural heritage" against pollution by the Anglo-Saxons, and among other things refuses to sign on to EU protections of linguistic minorities because recognizing the rights of Occitan or Breton or Catalan speakers would undermine the unitary nature of the French state established in the constitution. French culture is not synonymous with race but it is tightly defined by language, a literary canon, cuisine, arts, and shared history that outsiders must absolutely accept to be welcomed as French.

Mexico meanwhile enshrines in its constitution (Article 32) that native-born Mexicans are to be given preferential assignment in government jobs to naturalized citizens, and requires not just that the President but legislative representatives and Supreme Court justices also be natural-born citizens. The process of becoming a Mexican citizen is particularly arduous, which is short-circuited at any time by allegations of involvement in the political process or economic hardship, with the executive empowered to expel any non-citizen immediately and without due process (Article 33).

Malaysia of course has the Bumiputera policies, which extend special privileges to native Malays at the expense of everyone. Native Malays are, of course, defined as Muslim and any Malay who is not Muslim is removed from eligibility. However since Sharia courts are effectively in charge of the religious life of Malays they do not recognize conversions away from Islam and thus that is a bit of a moot point. The Bumiputera naturally does not include the so-called "orang asli," the indigenous non-Muslim speaking Austronesian and Austro-Asiastic languages are not eligible for such assistance despite being the most impoverished and uneducated portion of the population.

Looking further into the region one might also look at the case of Thailand, which is a fundamentally Buddhist country. Buddhism enjoys the special patronage of the state and the native Thai dynasty. There is no question of the country being a Buddhist Thai state, even if this is not explicitly put down in a constitution somewhere. Muslims in Pattani, for example, are under no illusion on this score which surely drove the separatist movement in the area, despite having the same rights as other Thai subjects.

Or one can look at Japan, another ethnic nation-state that does not put down that "X is for the X-nese" but only because its society is so cohesive and unwelcoming to non-Japanese participation that it does not have to.

Religion is a part of the cultural conception of many peoples; the Arabs and the Thai, for example. And Like Islam and Buddhism, Judaism allows for conversions. Nor does Israel lack provisions for non-Jewish citizens like the Druze, Bedouin, and Israeli Arabs; if those relationships are unequal it is one thing, though non-Jews are not conscripted into the IDF, which removes the sting of the lack of non-Jewish chaplains to an extent (non-Jews know this when signing up), and their own religious ceremonies are recognized by the state. The issue of holy sites is rather complex but I haven't heard where Christian and Muslim sites are falling into disrepair, and many of them have custodianship arrangements that go back to the time of the Ottoman Empire, and in some cases to Saladin. There is certainly reason to deplore the excessive influence of the Orthodox but that cuts mostly against other Jews, not non-Jewish Israeli citizens.

The main issue in maintaining Israeli "Jewishness" is immigration policy and the status of the West Bank and Gaza. The Palestinians do not want a multicultural, secular state to begin with so the latter issue is pretty much moot anyway. Israeli Arabs were granted citizenship by residence in 1952, and from that point onward considered as Israeli citizens for the purposes of ius sanguinis, as with Jewish Israeli citizens. The Law of Return does allow Israeli residence to Jewish non-citizens but does not guarantee citizenship and emerged as a measure out of the experience of the Holocaust, which certainly legitimately bred a special case. If Israel said that only Jews can be citizens it would be one thing, but it does not. The more abstract proclamation that Israel wishes to maintain its demographic balance to insure the Jewish character of the nation is a fundamental problem of nationalism and the nationalist conception of the nation-state. Where does the person not defined as part of the dominant group fit in amid a state that draws its existence from being the amalgamated will of a particular ethnic-linguistic-cultural group?

The ambiguity of Jewish nature is a complication, but it merely renders religion inextricably linked to culture rather than "merely" tied tightly to it as with most other nationalities, though one can make a case for much of the Middle East that religion is culture. To deny that France or Germany are not also ethnically based nation-states is bizarre, even if their culture is easier for outsiders to assimilate into, and their dominant nationalities more tolerant of unassimilated minorities (as long as they have no chance of really changing the ethnic and cultural basis of either state).

It is of course all well and good to proclaim some ideal of a culturally universal, religiously secular state but in practice nation-states are culturally exclusive. Do they have the right to manipulate policies of demography to insure that they remain so? Or, put more softly, do nations have a right to treat their own nationality in preferential ways so as to safeguard the continued existence and vitality of their cultures? If not then Israel is certainly in the wrong but so is almost every state and, arguably, the existence of the nation-state itself is a wrong since it has no practical or historical basis except ethnic-cultural consciousness that is by definition exclusive. Or one might answer that it is a matter of degrees, but then Israel has mostly committed acts of omission (not annexing the West Bank Palestinians) rather than commission (like expelling all non-Jews). Israel obviously restricts immigration and treats Jewish people preferably in granting residency, but is that enough of a strike against the non-Jews who live in Israel to be a blow to their rights?

And no, the sins of others do not excuse Israel from misdeeds. Rather they point to a broader issue that leads to some rather intractable real-world issues even if "one-world secular state" is an easy rational solution.
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Re: Netanyahu: "We'll surround Israel with a Fence!"

Post by Darth Yan »

that's just what the dhimmis want you to think :D

It's true though. I also am torn on the fence. I pity the palestinians, but acknoweldge that israel has concerns.
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Re: Netanyahu: "We'll surround Israel with a Fence!"

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MarshalPurnell wrote:It is of course all well and good to proclaim some ideal of a culturally universal, religiously secular state but in practice nation-states are culturally exclusive. Do they have the right to manipulate policies of demography to insure that they remain so? Or, put more softly, do nations have a right to treat their own nationality in preferential ways so as to safeguard the continued existence and vitality of their cultures? If not then Israel is certainly in the wrong but so is almost every state and, arguably, the existence of the nation-state itself is a wrong since it has no practical or historical basis except ethnic-cultural consciousness that is by definition exclusive. Or one might answer that it is a matter of degrees, but then Israel has mostly committed acts of omission (not annexing the West Bank Palestinians) rather than commission (like expelling all non-Jews). Israel obviously restricts immigration and treats Jewish people preferably in granting residency, but is that enough of a strike against the non-Jews who live in Israel to be a blow to their rights?
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Re: Netanyahu: "We'll surround Israel with a Fence!"

Post by Stark »

Darth Yan wrote:that's just what the dhimmis want you to think :D

It's true though. I also am torn on the fence. I pity the palestinians, but acknoweldge that israel has concerns.
Yeah, the White Australia policy wasn't just not terrible and racist; it was actually normal and perhaps laudable. I mean, Australia insisting on maintaining racist laws didn't piss off the Japanese after World War One or anything, it's a purely internal matter.

We have corncerns about being swamped in a yellow tide; that makes it all okay.

Wait a second, that's horseshit! :lol:
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Re: Netanyahu: "We'll surround Israel with a Fence!"

Post by Bakustra »

Simply declaring "well obviously Germany and France would institute religious and ethnic oppression if their Islamic/Arabic population got close enough to a majority" is all well and good, save that you note that the central definitions of Frenchness are linguistic and cultural. Presuming that Arabic/North African/Turkish populations would not assimilate requires some evidence. Indeed, the very idea that France, Germany, and western Europe as a whole value culture rather than human rights should ideally require evidence, but slippery hypotheticals are hard to support.

Of course, the majority of your post seems to be going on about how various nations repress minorities. I will simply note that I do not care what each nation's individual policies are sufficiently that it would lead me to believe that a nebulous culture that the majority of migrants adopt naturally is somehow more valuable than human rights or human life. After all, if nations do force the establishment of an underclass, as France has and as Israel has, to greater or lesser extents, this will eventually lead to violence, meaning people bleeding and dying for culture.

I, personally, do not particularly value culture, and certainly not enough to die for it, or to declare someone a second-class citizen for it. Further, the idea that nation-states are culturally exclusive is a curious one. For sure, there are differences between states, but there are also differences within states as well, particularly multi-national ones. Further, the differences are often fairly minimal, particularly with the proliferation of American culture around the world and the remnants of similar proliferation in East Asia, Europe, and the Middle East and Southwest Asia. Declaring "cultural exclusivity" in this context seems to be denying any similarities between American and Canadian, or Canadian and British, or Spanish and Portugese cultures. Of course, this is a red herring, though an interesting one.

Israel itself is discriminatory on religious grounds, not just on an interfaith level but an intrafaith level. It is tantamount to the US declaring that only Lutherans may marry or get divorced, funding only Lutheran schools, and so on. Further, if you are not one of the religious groups recognized by the Israeli government, you cannot get married or divorced either. If I were to move to Israel, as an atheist, I would not be permitted to marry or divorce.

May I phrase your question in a different way? Do nations have a right to discriminate against minorities to ensure the continued status of their nationality? Well, should the Navajo have the right to forbid any non-Navajo from living on their land, or to forbid any intermarriage between Navajo tribespeople and non-Navajo? What about the US? What is our nationality? Are we, Canada, Australia, and New Zealand the only states not allowed to be racist, because the original nationalities are now vastly outnumbered? Should the Maori be allowed to oppress non-Maori New Zealanders, because they, and not the white, black, and Asian settlers, are the native nationality? This barrage of questions, in my book, has one answer. No. Racism, ethnocentrism, religious intolerance, and sexism, ought not to be permitted on grounds of culture.

I, personally, do not particularly think that the nation-state is any more legitimate than the state or the empire. I do think that the nation-state is flawed, because of nationalism and the problems that that creates, with, for example, climate change, oil depletion, and, indeed, virtually everything that happens in the world today. Of course there are issues with the practical implementation of secularized states. However, the most educated parts of the world are some of the most secular. The Internet and mass communication are also playing a part in breaking down the borders between parts of the world. Of course, the problems of inequity and backlashes against said forces mean that the process will be slow and gradual, but I do believe that these forces will eventually enable people to have a common background for understanding each other.
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Re: Netanyahu: "We'll surround Israel with a Fence!"

Post by MarshalPurnell »

As I said, there are two issues. The practical issue of whether or not Israel discriminates against its non-Jewish citizens, and the theoretical issue of the nature of the nation-state. The failure of Israel to institute civil marriage and otherwise make provisions for non-religious citizens is overwhelming an issue with citizens who are Jewish by ethnicity. The Druze, the Bedouins, and the Israeli Arabs have their own recognized religious institutions, were extended citizenship by residence and now obtain it through blood, are exempt from conscription save by voluntary assent, and legally are on an equal footing with the citizens of the Jewish majority. That Israel has a state religion and is serious about it is unfortunate but far from unique, and presumably were secular institutions created that problem would be mitigated in most practical instances.

The issue of the nature of the nation-state is a more complex matter. I did not say that Arab-speaking Muslims would make up a majority of the population of France or Germany, or that they would refuse to assimilate. Rather France and Germany do not need to institute overt measures to retain their cultural and ethnic integrity because they precisely are not threatened. Limiting immigration and strongly encouraging assimilation are quite sufficient for both countries, though both have problems with immigrants and plenty of native voices calling for stronger measures. But as long as the situation continues both countries maintain their cultural/ethnic integrity without having to resort to any strategy beyond a selective immigration policy. Were the situation otherwise, well, what is France except a vehicle for the preservation and propagation of French culture? Do you think the French government or people would be sanguine about their state being overtaken by "foreign" influences and people, about French culture losing its distinctive existence?

And that is the conundrum. Israel is a more extreme case due to demographics, geography, and the inevitable conflation of Jewishness as an ethnicity and a religion. But with a handful of exceptions all functional countries today are nation-states whose existence is predicated on an ethnic/cultural consciousness that by its nature is exclusive. The forms vary wildly, as do the means required to maintain ethnic integrity (if even threatened as such in the absence of immigration) but the nation-state is ultimately based on ethnic-cultural solidarity that groups like people against outsiders. That some ethnicities and cultures doesn't matter if public perception is otherwise; the Dutch and the Germans (for example) are quite similar and speak related languages, but the Dutch certainly do not consider themselves to be German. It may be a case where the difference between a dialect and a language is an army, but the perceived separation is keenly felt and thus very real. Regional identity can complicate matters further, but a nation-state that is multi-ethnic without a recognition of common ground is invariably an unhappy nation-state. Much of it may boil down to accidents of history but the background is irrelevant against what people feel today.

The alternative of the secular state of universal culture is rational and perhaps the most "just" form of government, insofar as by definition it excludes no one, but it is also a pipe-dream. What would the language of this state be? What institutions would it have? At best it could be only a federation of competing cultural groupings, with freedom of movement between them based on meeting specific nonethnic criteria. The United States is not a nation-state but it has a dominant culture, it has a common language, and it has hallowed institutions that create what amounts to a religion of the national politic, with the Founding Fathers as their prophets - ironically all very Rousseau. Canada, Australia, New Zealand and so on have a similar background to the United States and similar arrangements, which makes an ethnic definition of their nationality unnecessary in the wake of a political definition. While an Enlightenment-style Universal Republic based on Individual Rights and Civic Participation offers many advantages to the nation-state, though, good luck getting people to come to any sort of agreement on the particulars. Just because people are more cosmopolitan does not mean they will agree on a common language, a common government, common policies - and the educated people of the old multi-ethnic Empires were all very, very cosmopolitan people on a scale few "world citizens" of today come close to. In the absence of such agreement, nationalism at least represents a coherent way for people to form their own states and institutions on a basis that most seem to agree with and find legitimacy in.

The problem of course is when (inevitably) there are minorities or other outsiders. What role do they have? But every nation-state is inherently a culturally-exclusive institution that exists because of the common language and history of an ethnicity. France is for the French, just as Germany is for the Germans, and Egypt is for the Egyptians and Mexico is for the Mexicans and, hell, even the Bahamas is for Bahamanians, to quote an election sticker I saw while there in November. Some may have tighter or looser ways of defining their national culture, use more or less restrictive practices to maintain it, but it is an inherent characteristic of the nation-state. "Israel is a Jewish state" is not any more or less offensive than the inherent logic behind any nation-state.

And I am no fan of nationalism. But the nation-state serves imperfectly and isn't worth getting worked up over, in the absence of a serious solution.
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Re: Netanyahu: "We'll surround Israel with a Fence!"

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You know who else advocated race states? Yes, I'm evoking Godwin's Law, and I don't fucking care. This idea that as long as an atrocity was done in the name of preserving "cultural identity" racist notions of culture lead directly to one of the most hideous atrocities of all time. It is intolerable. You can pontificate all day about how its not practical to unify humanity (as if that was relevant to the discussion), but you have done absolutely fucking nothing to justify the idea that prejudice is right as long as it is done in the name of preserving your preferred culture. Never mind that culture is something that changes over time naturally. Never mind that the existence of such nations as the UNITED FUCKING STATES shows that states are NOT inherently "cultural exclusive". Never mind that Israel was founded BY immigrants to the area in question in the first place. Never mind that Is=!Ought is the most basic fallacy in existence. Nope! You just keep on erecting those walls of text that don't go anywhere and ignore the central issue. Whether or not you care to admit it, you ARE a nationalist, and a racist one at that.
Last edited by Formless on 2010-01-13 10:27pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Netanyahu: "We'll surround Israel with a Fence!"

Post by Bakustra »

You are dancing around the issue. Your previous argument was over whether preservation of culture is worth oppression of minorities. That is the central point in your examples of various nations (primarily third-world) implementing nationalistic ideas to "defend their culture". Of course, this is not merely a matter of immigration. Few nation-states are strictly such. Many have multiple nations within their borders who are native to those regions. France has the Occitan, the Basques, the Bretons. Others have multiple distinct cultures. Germany has the Bavarians, Prussians, and other subcultures, focused around its states. Which is the nationality, and the culture, which must be preserved, then? Is it merely the culture of the majority? Then it just becomes another means for the privileged to maintain their grip on power.

Further, there are nations within the former British colonies, native ones, to boot. We owe a great deal in North America to those groups, culturally and linguistically speaking. Shall we then restrict the presidency to a verified member of a Native American tribe? For a less "silly" matter, consider the French attempt to obliterate Occitan and Breton in favor of Francais. Shall the US, as an example, attempt to wipe out the Southern, African-American, Western, New Englander, Upper Midwestern, and Coastal State dialects in favor of the Midwestern Received pronunciation, vocabulary, and slang? After all, it is the dialect of the national media. While the US is not strictly a nation-state, there is still a national identity present amongst Americans, a common history, a somewhat common religious history, a common language.

At what point does a new nation emerge? Would, assuming such an event happens, the US then be free to oppress immigrants and minorities in order to protect Thanksgiving, the flag, and mom's apple pie? Why should culture, a nebulous concept, and one which wears down in the presence of powerful neighbors, and, nowadays, in the ease of communication and transportation, be such an important element? Would it be justified, morally, if France were to ban any and all foreign films tomorrow for "cultural incompatibility"? At what point does culture stop becoming a valid justification?

When it comes to culture, what I think is that anyone who seriously gets angry about the thought of culture changing is ignorant and/or a fool. Culture changes regularly. What, after all, did the introduction of personal computers, cellular phones, and the Internet do but change the culture? Now, you could argue that there is a great deal of difference between technological changes and social changes from immigration, but I would argue that most of those changes are imaginary and within the heads of the French government. Now, personal experience is no substitute for valid data, but if France is anything at all like its neighbors Spain and Germany, well, I didn't see any riots or protests outside any of the ethnic restaurants while I've been there. Ultimately, while such paranoia must be accounted for, I don't see any reason to give it personal credibility, particularly since assimilation tends to happen naturally.

As for the Israel matter, I don't think we disagree particularly, and I lack any further data beyond the State Department's report to examine the matter, nor do I have any personal experience with Israel and how Arab Christians, Armenian Christians, and Arab Muslims are treated de facto, as opposed to the de jure equality. I do disagree that intrafaith discrimination is unimportant, when you consider that the majority of Israelis are not Orthodox or ultra-Orthodox; indeed, almost as many Israelis are Muslims as are Orthodox Jews.
Formless wrote:You know who else advocated race states? Yes, I'm evoking Godwin's Law, and I don't fucking care. This idea that as long as an atrocity was done in the name of preserving "cultural identity" racist notions of culture lead directly to one of the most hideous atrocities of all time. It is intolerable. You can pontificate all day about how its not practical to unify humanity (as if that was relevant to the discussion), but you have done absolutely fucking nothing to justify the idea that prejudice is right as long as it is done in the name of preserving your preferred culture. Never mind that culture is something that changes over time naturally. Never mind that the existence of such nations as the UNITED FUCKING STATES shows that states are NOT inherently "cultural exclusive". Never mind that Is=!Ought is the most basic fallacy in existence. Nope! You just keep on erecting those walls of text that don't go anywhere and ignore the central issue. Whether or not you care to admit it, you ARE a nationalist, and a racist one at that.
Simmer down, please. I seriously doubt that MarshallPurnell is actually advocating ethnically-based states in total seriousness, judging from his comments. He is talking about nation-states, which I do disagree are culturally exclusive, but declaring the United States as an example of a non-culturally exclusive state is immaterial to nation-states, which the US is not counted among.
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Re: Netanyahu: "We'll surround Israel with a Fence!"

Post by Formless »

Simmer down, please. I seriously doubt that MarshallPurnell is actually advocating ethnically-based states in total seriousness, judging from his comments. He is talking about nation-states, which I do disagree are culturally exclusive, but declaring the United States as an example of a non-culturally exclusive state is immaterial to nation-states, which the US is not counted among.
The US isn't a nation state? What.

Oh, and with all respect, go shove it up your ass. His argument boils down to "all states are race states, ergo Israel is justified in being racist." Yeah, that isn't the kind of moral bankruptcy that deserves condemnation at all, is it? :roll:
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