Avatar review thread

[adam_grif]

Seems like a general Avatar thread, so...
Spoiler

http://random-domain.com/browse.php?comicID=42

[PeZook]

What is it with people calling the Na'Vi "furries", anyway? They don't have any fur. They don't even resemble animals.

Much.

[Shroom Man 777]

God damn Samus is hot. I'm kind of peeved that Samus was sleeping with... Ass Effect mang? It should be Naked/Solid Snake, mang! But I guess it'd be out-of-topic since unless RDA had a METAL GEAR on Pandora, Snake won't be arsed to stop them. Unless those RDA mechs count as Metal Gear (it can't be!).

Man, Samus.

[adam_grif]

Well, considering that in MGS4 we had Metal Gear Moo Cow, I suppose anything's possible at this stage.

[Eldy]

Sure, there are differences.
But are they sufficiently large that they change the fact that survival mostly depends on ones survival skills?

This has been the point of my last few posts. I think there are enough reasonable differences that we can't just assume that they had death rates similar to human hunter-gatherer societies. The Eywa point is secondary.

Furthermore, they can travel very far (flying mounts), so they have a HUGE area. It is a damn rainforest, too - lots and lots of food.
There are/were hunter-gatherers with more or less fixed homes on earth, too. As long as you do not have agriculture, you are a hunter-gatherer.

The hunters are the only ones with the banshees, not the gatherers or anyone else. Out of curiosity, what sedentary hunter-gatherer societies exist/ed on Earth?

Sure - and did they ever USE it for anything?
Eywha has a will on her own, they did not even think of asking her for help in a huge crisis, much less commanding her to do so.

They pray to Eywa (Tree of Souls). Please give up the point about them not asking for help with the RDA. Either that or respond to my point instead of just repeating your assertion. Repetition != validity.

The size compared to humans is irrelevant - it is the size compared to the Fauna&Flora that matters.
In that comparision, the Navi are no better off than humans on earth.

I notice that you 'forgot' to respond to the strength and toughness (i.e., "naturally occurring carbon fibers") comparison.

How many old Navi do we see?IIRC, only the two wise leaders, no more.

As I said before, the dead Na'vi had clearly lived longer than the two leaders; plus like Stas said, there were more as well.

Then tell me - what does Eywa do?
So far, you have only used it as an explanation for things that do not need one (such as having enough food for a society of a few hundreds in an gigantic area) or taken her as an explanation for speculative assumptions (such as the lack of diseases).

A gigantic area that the hunters can easily traverse; not necessarily anyone else. I'd appreciate it if you could stop focusing so much on the Eywa point, it really isn't as important as the one about differences (including the physiological ones you didn't really respond to and their ability to mind-meld and sometimes control the flora and fauna around them, which would be a distinct advantage over humans). I don't know what exactly Eywa does, though I postulate her as an explanation for how they could remain sedentary. However, I will concede that I can't prove it is Eywa that allows them to remain sedentary. Still, even if Eywa is not the true explanation, that doesn't change there being a difference.

I answered the "sedentary"-point already, and it is a red herring anyway - being sedentary doesn't push them out of the "hunter-gatherer" category - and it does not disprove the point that they have a very hard life.

The closest things to an answer you gave was "that's my point". You seem to have missed the point of what I wrote though; I didn't claim it makes them not a hunter-gatherer society, I claimed that it constitutes a huge difference between the Na'vi and real-world hunter-gatherer societies since not only were they sedentary, it was a fairly large population. I think that this difference along with the others I've mentioned means that we can't just casually compare them to real-world hunter-gatherers as you have done.

The Pandoran ecosystem is radically different from anything on Earth and the Na'vi's physiology is significantly different and more resilient than humans (probably explaining why they can survive things like the leaf-jump).

[Artemas]

(probably explaining why they can survive things like the leaf-jump)

Pandora is supposed to have lighter gravity, or some such shit. Makes you wonder how a giant hammerheaded rhinocephant came to evolve though.

[Bluewolf]

Well, considering that in MGS4 we had Metal Gear Moo Cow,

I must know more.

[Serafina]

This has been the point of my last few posts. I think there are enough reasonable differences that we can't just assume that they had death rates similar to human hunter-gatherer societies. The Eywa point is secondary.

The key is that they apparently NEED survival skills for survival, and they have to learn them the hard way - at least all the wilderness and combat skills.
This is naturally hazardous, unless you are suggesting that the Navi do not need to train them or can somehow train them in a less hazardous way.

In fact, i can back my claim that their training is MORE hazardous than that of most earth societies - since Jakes training might well be the typical training for an young adult.

The hunters are the only ones with the banshees, not the gatherers or anyone else. Out of curiosity, what sedentary hunter-gatherer societies exist/ed on Earth?

Soo...the hunters can acces a huge area for food? Which is exactly my point, in case you did not notice.

Furthermore, several societies in rainforests are more or less sedentary - because they have enough food close by, so they do not need to travel.
This can also apply to rich fishing ground and to every other society that does not need to follow it's food.
A society just like the Na'vi.

They pray to Eywa (Tree of Souls). Please give up the point about them not asking for help with the RDA. Either that or respond to my point instead of just repeating your assertion. Repetition != validity.

It is explicity stated that they do not think that Jakes request will be granted. How do you want to invalidate my point that this indicates that Eywa does NOT actively protect them?

Besides, Eywa is more than the Tree of Souls and rather the whole planetary arboreal network.

I notice that you 'forgot' to respond to the strength and toughness (i.e., "naturally occurring carbon fibers") comparison.

Gee - perhaps because my point applies to those as well as to size?
Look, it does not matter if you are ten times as strong, fast, big or whatever as a human, if all the other animals on your planet have the same advantage relative to our terran animals.

As I said before, the dead Na'vi had clearly lived longer than the two leaders; plus like Stas said, there were more as well.

Granted, i do not recall the number of old Navi. It was not that big, it seems, but it is well possible that their area is rich enough that non-working members of society are not that much of an issue.

That does not invalidate my points about dangerous predators, dangerous envirement and bad healthcare.

A gigantic area that the hunters can easily traverse; not necessarily anyone else.

How is this different from any other secure home - say, a cave?

I'd appreciate it if you could stop focusing so much on the Eywa point,

You made it. If you think it is not important, conceed the point. If you have other points, present them.

it really isn't as important as the one about differences (including the physiological ones you didn't really respond to

I did - you merely did not understand what i wrote.

and their ability to mind-meld and sometimes control the flora and fauna around them,

We see them using it on two types of animals regulary (the giant flyer&predator do not count, since those were obviously exceptions).
Granted, the mind-meld is pretty usefull for domestication, but it is not a supernatural ability that makes them immune to predators.
We never see them controlling any Fauna - they merely acces the worldmind (Eywa), but it apparently does not grant them knowledge, intelligence-data or anything else.

I don't know what exactly Eywa does, though I postulate her as an explanation for how they could remain sedentary.

As i pointed out, we do not need a "possibly accounts for, even if we lack evidence"-explanation - the abundance of food is readily explaind by living in a rainforest and having a fast method of travel.

Still, even if Eywa is not the true explanation, that doesn't change there being a difference.

Well - so far, all differences i see is easier domestication and some kind of fancy "afterlife", which may or not be one.

The closest things to an answer you gave was "that's my point". You seem to have missed the point of what I wrote though; I didn't claim it makes them not a hunter-gatherer society, I claimed that it constitutes a huge difference between the Na'vi and real-world hunter-gatherer societies since not only were they sedentary, it was a fairly large population. I think that this difference along with the others I've mentioned means that we can't just casually compare them to real-world hunter-gatherers as you have done.

Well - HOW does it constitute a huge difference?
We have (or had, in most cases) sedentary hunter-gatherers on earth, so it is not an unknown situation. This means that we CAN compare them.
And we can readily see that hunter-gatherers, sedentary or not, had way worse standards of living than later society (measured in average and maximum lifespan).

The Pandoran ecosystem is radically different from anything on Earth and the Na'vi's physiology is significantly different and more resilient than humans (probably explaining why they can survive things like the leaf-jump).

Yes, it is.
However, most ecosystems on earth are also "radically different" from each other.
In the pandoran Rainfores, we have several predators, large herd animals, a rich amount of plant life, possibly hundreds of insects - we even have monkeys! The only significant difference are the large fliers.
Seems pretty similar to, say, an indian rainforest to me.
There are of course differences, but they do not change the basic mechanisms of ecosystems.


Anyway, start answering my point:
The Navi are an sedentary hunter-gatherer society which relies on the extreme survival skills of a significant number of its members to survive.
These members need to gain these skills somehow. Jakes training heavily suggests that they learn it mostly in the real enviorment. Such training naturally comes with a huge attrition rate.
Furthermore, it is quite likely that the other members or their society also suffer an (larger than that of later societies) attrition rate, due to dangerous enviorment (unless they stay at home all the time) and diseases (due to lack of healthcare).
I do not see any points that change this. Present convincing arguments how the society of the Navi is different from similar hunter-gatherers on earth that those points do not apply.

[Guardsman Bass]

God damn Samus is hot. I'm kind of peeved that Samus was sleeping with... Ass Effect mang? It should be Naked/Solid Snake, mang! But I guess it'd be out-of-topic since unless RDA had a METAL GEAR on Pandora, Snake won't be arsed to stop them. Unless those RDA mechs count as Metal Gear (it can't be!).

Man, Samus.

I'll second that - she's pretty damn hot in that picture. Although she looks a bit more like a model than a fighter - I always figured Samus as being a bit more "built", unless that suit is doing all the heavy lifting.

Furthermore, several societies in rainforests are more or less sedentary - because they have enough food close by, so they do not need to travel.
This can also apply to rich fishing ground and to every other society that does not need to follow it's food.

That pretty much describes the native american societies in the Northwest - they were sedentary hunter-gatherers, if I recall correctly.

[Darwin]

These members need to gain these skills somehow. Jakes training heavily suggests that they learn it mostly in the real enviorment. Such training naturally comes with a huge attrition rate.
Furthermore, it is quite likely that the other members or their society also suffer an (larger than that of later societies) attrition rate, due to dangerous enviorment (unless they stay at home all the time) and diseases (due to lack of healthcare).
I do not see any points that change this. Present convincing arguments how the society of the Navi is different from similar hunter-gatherers on earth that those points do not apply.

I don't see how you can take Jake's example as typical of hunter training. By all we know this could have been fast track 'you're a warrior in your culture and an outsider so we aren't cutting you any breaks' training while young Na'vi learn to run and jump and climb and hunt in and around hometree in relative safety. There is no reason to believe that Jake's training was typical.

[Xon]

Bioengineering Pandora is the kind of thing that post-Singularity intelligences with a black sense of humor might do for their luddites, who refused to go into space or to have anything to do with cybernetics and AI. Set up their imagined utopian primitive paradise - even use advanced genetic engineering to make all their bullshit spirituality actually mean something - then clear out of the system. It's all shiny and happy and nobly savage for millenia until either aliens or a random space rock end the party. Didn't leave them with any orbital defences of course - hey, they're the ones who said technology was evil.

IMO, the Na'vi make more sense when you consider thier "society" as a large MMO with the Na'vi themselves avatars of mindstates stored in the planet-mind.

[adam_grif]

God damn Samus is hot. I'm kind of peeved that Samus was sleeping with... Ass Effect mang? It should be Naked/Solid Snake, mang! But I guess it'd be out-of-topic since unless RDA had a METAL GEAR on Pandora, Snake won't be arsed to stop them. Unless those RDA mechs count as Metal Gear (it can't be!).

Man, Samus.

I'll second that - she's pretty damn hot in that picture. Although she looks a bit more like a model than a fighter - I always figured Samus as being a bit more "built", unless that suit is doing all the heavy lifting.

http://vgmaps.com/Other/OtherStuff/Metr ... ndings.png

Official artworks on the subject.

[Junghalli]

Bioengineering Pandora is the kind of thing that post-Singularity intelligences with a black sense of humor might do for their luddites, who refused to go into space or to have anything to do with cybernetics and AI. Set up their imagined utopian primitive paradise - even use advanced genetic engineering to make all their bullshit spirituality actually mean something - then clear out of the system. It's all shiny and happy and nobly savage for millenia until either aliens or a random space rock end the party. Didn't leave them with any orbital defences of course - hey, they're the ones who said technology was evil.

This gives me a hilarious idea for a fanfic where the genocide-wankers get to have their wish and the humans deflect a big asteroid to hit Pandora and kill off the Na'Vi and Eywa. Unfortunately for them something like the above scenario is true and the powerful postsingularity civilization is still hanging around, maybe having moved into the Kuiper Belt. The crew of the asteroid-deflection ship watch to their horror as a squadron of highly advanced robot ships comes out of the Kuiper Belt, easily deflects the asteroid away from collision course with Pandora, and proceeds to explain to them just how they've misjudged humanity's place in the food chain.

Sort of as if an 19th century civilization found a magic portal to Amish country, assumed the entire planet was like that, started conquering and enslaving the "primitives", and then get the shock of their lives when a National Guard unit shows up.

[Gramzamber]

God damn Samus is hot. I'm kind of peeved that Samus was sleeping with... Ass Effect mang? It should be Naked/Solid Snake, mang! But I guess it'd be out-of-topic since unless RDA had a METAL GEAR on Pandora, Snake won't be arsed to stop them. Unless those RDA mechs count as Metal Gear (it can't be!).

Man, Samus.

Yeah man, anybody but wanker boy. Well, unless it was female Shepard.. yes that would titilate me. Shut up.
In any case they should put up the money to call the Star Wars galaxy and get Starkiller, he would single handedly destroy the entirety of RDA with his awesome Mary Sue power.

[Vastatosaurus Rex]

The moment I saw Avatar, I thought it was one of the best movies I've ever seen in my 20 years of life. It's true that the plot wasn't completely original, but it wasn't a bad plot by itself. Besides, everything else was so spectacular that I didn't mind the plot's familiarity. Tribal warriors riding pterodactyls and fighting evil space marines FTW!

[Seydlitz_k]

A sedentary community can not survive solely as hunter gatherer's. I think most of you are underestimating just how much energy a tribe of hunter gatherer's need to survive.

In Late Stone Age Hunters of the British Isles by Christopher Smith (have to read it for my prehistory of Britain course for my Archaeology degree ), it is estimated that a tribe of 20 humans who get 80% of their energy requirements from Reindeer would need a territory of 1900 square kilometers, with a Reindeer density of 8 per square kilometer (15,200 reindeer!) to maintain stable living conditions. That's a lot of space, and a lot of food! Of course, that estimate is only for Britain, and a rainforest environment might be able to sustain a slightly higher population density. It is worth noting though, that population density in modern hunter gatherer communities world wide is something like 0.012 people per square kilometer.

The only evidence of "sedentary" hunter gatherer communities are those that live on coasts and near rivers (At least in Britain). And that evidence is arguable at best.

@ Serafina if you can actually name me some tribes of hunter-gatherer's who do live a completely sedentary life-style, please show me! I would be interested to read about them, as I've never heard of such a thing.

Oh yeah, and just because you don't have agriculture, it dosn't mean you are a hunter-gatherer. You could have a pastoral community, or a horticultural community, or any mix of anything.

Even in a rainforest, a tribe as large as the Omaticaya just surviving off of hunting and gathering, I imagine would quickly outstrip the carrying capacity of their environment. I highly doubt they could live in the same area without moving around every few years. The increased range of the flying mounts wouldn't help much either, especially since it would mean the hunters would be limited to only carrying back relatively small prey. Not to mention that the Ikran are predatory animals which also seem to have quite a high metabolism, so you'd have to hunt even more to feed them as well! And the Omaticaya seem to have quite a few of them.

Plus, most of the larger prey animals are impervious to bullets (Like the hammerhead thing). How are they going to kill those things with flint tipped arrows? (hmm..traps maybe could work. But how are you going to butcher something, if you can't penetrate it's hide?) The only animal we see them hunting is a relatively small deer type creature, and you'd need to kill a lot of those to make the energy expended hunting worthwhile, and then still feed 300+ people back home.

It is possible that the plants on Pandora can provide a lot more energy than meat, and so serve as the major source of energy...but then why spend so much effort in hunting? (Unless it's a social elite thing, like fox hunting) Still though, unless these food plants are highly productive year-round, and can be stored with ease, I'd imagine they'd still need to move around a lot to get all the food they need.

Hell, even Iron Age and Dark Age farming communities exhibited migration over time, probably due to land-degradation. True sedentary lifestyles only existed in areas where there was some form of crop rotation, or something to keep the land in one place fertile over extended periods of time. Even modern native agricultural communities living in rainforests need to relocate periodically due to land degradation!

Factor in that real life hunter-gatherer communities don't really have any attachment to a specific plot of land, due to their mobility, and the whole idea of them fighting to the death for a stupid hometree is pretty absurd (At least to me).

Of course, the Pandorapedia says the Na'Vi have basic agriculture, so this whole argument is pretty moot.

In any case, quite liked the movie. Seen it twice already, mainly for the special effects. Thought the story was quite derivative and cheesy though...

[Serafina]

Hey, some actual arguments!

A sedentary community can not survive solely as hunter gatherer's. I think most of you are underestimating just how much energy a tribe of hunter gatherer's need to survive.

In Late Stone Age Hunters of the British Isles by Christopher Smith (have to read it for my prehistory of Britain course for my Archaeology degree ), it is estimated that a tribe of 20 humans who get 80% of their energy requirements from Reindeer would need a territory of 1900 square kilometers, with a Reindeer density of 8 per square kilometer (15,200 reindeer!) to maintain stable living conditions. That's a lot of space, and a lot of food! Of course, that estimate is only for Britain, and a rainforest environment might be able to sustain a slightly higher population density. It is worth noting though, that population density in modern hunter gatherer communities world wide is something like 0.012 people per square kilometer.

The only evidence of "sedentary" hunter gatherer communities are those that live on coasts and near rivers (At least in Britain). And that evidence is arguable at best.

Certainly intersting - but those numbers are for britain, while we are talking about an extraterrestical rainforest.
Also, it appears as if those numbers are for people who were primary hunters, while the Navi also might be substantial gatherers.
Besides, the Navi CAN easily cover a huge area for their search of food with their flying animals.

@ Serafina if you can actually name me some tribes of hunter-gatherer's who do live a completely sedentary life-style, please show me! I would be interested to read about them, as I've never heard of such a thing.

I will readily admit that i can not, and that i am not an anthropologist.
So, if you have data that shows that it is impossible to have a lifestyle where you get your food by gathering and hunting it, i will readily conceed that point.

However, as far as i can see, there is no such data (yet).
We see sedentary tendencies if food gets more abundant - if you have to travel less to feed your community, you tend to stay in the same place.
This is even more true if you have reasons to stay in the same place - such as a giant tree to live within.

Now, we can clearly see that the rainforest-Navi live sedentary. We also see no signs of agriculture or fishing, and we only see transport animals which are apparently not used for food.
We also see that a significant number of the tribe are combat-capable, so there must be some need to have them.
Since they do not have wars with other tribes, they must be hunters instead of warriors.
Which leads to the conclusion that the Navi are getting a significant amount of food from hunting. They clearly need it, it is more than just an exoctic meal - indicated by the large number of hunters.

Oh yeah, and just because you don't have agriculture, it dosn't mean you are a hunter-gatherer. You could have a pastoral community, or a horticultural community, or any mix of anything.

Problem is, we do not SEE any other source of food.

Even in a rainforest, a tribe as large as the Omaticaya just surviving off of hunting and gathering, I imagine would quickly outstrip the carrying capacity of their environment. I highly doubt they could live in the same area without moving around every few years. The increased range of the flying mounts wouldn't help much either, especially since it would mean the hunters would be limited to only carrying back relatively small prey. Not to mention that the Ikran are predatory animals which also seem to have quite a high metabolism, so you'd have to hunt even more to feed them as well! And the Omaticaya seem to have quite a few of them.

Plus, most of the larger prey animals are impervious to bullets (Like the hammerhead thing). How are they going to kill those things with flint tipped arrows? (hmm..traps maybe could work. But how are you going to butcher something, if you can't penetrate it's hide?) The only animal we see them hunting is a relatively small deer type creature, and you'd need to kill a lot of those to make the energy expended hunting worthwhile, and then still feed 300+ people back home.

It is possible that the plants on Pandora can provide a lot more energy than meat, and so serve as the major source of energy...but then why spend so much effort in hunting? (Unless it's a social elite thing, like fox hunting) Still though, unless these food plants are highly productive year-round, and can be stored with ease, I'd imagine they'd still need to move around a lot to get all the food they need.

Hell, even Iron Age and Dark Age farming communities exhibited migration over time, probably due to land-degradation. True sedentary lifestyles only existed in areas where there was some form of crop rotation, or something to keep the land in one place fertile over extended periods of time. Even modern native agricultural communities living in rainforests need to relocate periodically due to land degradation!

Well, that is all nice - but as far as we can see, the Navi are NOT leaving their tree and do NOT have any other food source.

Factor in that real life hunter-gatherer communities don't really have any attachment to a specific plot of land, due to their mobility, and the whole idea of them fighting to the death for a stupid hometree is pretty absurd (At least to me).

Yes, it might be absurd (and you made good points to underline that) - but if we see it in the movie, that's what we have as data. You can not explain away data.

Of course, the Pandorapedia says the Na'Vi have basic agriculture, so this whole argument is pretty moot.

It is customary to link to your sources .
Anyway, we still did not see it in the movie, and the sole mention of "basic agriculture" could mean pretty much everything.

[Shroom Man 777]

Certainly intersting - but those numbers are for britain, while we are talking about an extraterrestical rainforest.
Also, it appears as if those numbers are for people who were primary hunters, while the Navi also might be substantial gatherers.
Besides, the Navi CAN easily cover a huge area for their search of food with their flying animals.

I will readily admit that i can not, and that i am not an anthropologist.
So, if you have data that shows that it is impossible to have a lifestyle where you get your food by gathering and hunting it, i will readily conceed that point.

However, as far as i can see, there is no such data (yet).
We see sedentary tendencies if food gets more abundant - if you have to travel less to feed your community, you tend to stay in the same place.
This is even more true if you have reasons to stay in the same place - such as a giant tree to live within.

Now, we can clearly see that the rainforest-Navi live sedentary. We also see no signs of agriculture or fishing, and we only see transport animals which are apparently not used for food.
We also see that a significant number of the tribe are combat-capable, so there must be some need to have them.
Since they do not have wars with other tribes, they must be hunters instead of warriors.
Which leads to the conclusion that the Navi are getting a significant amount of food from hunting. They clearly need it, it is more than just an exoctic meal - indicated by the large number of hunters.

But doesn't all of this mean that despite its non-active non-intervention, Eywa still DOES provide? The sentient planet and perhaps the unique features of Pandora that are indubitably NOT found on Earth makes it possible for the Na'vi to be relatively sedentary hunter-gatherers (if they ARE just hunter gatherers). These things can explain why their lifestyle is not comparable to hunter-gatherers.

I mean, do we even see hunter-gatherers who have domesticated wildlife? Aside from hunting dogs. Do we see hunter-gatherers with horses? Even if there are cases of these, do these hunter-gatherers with domestication have domesticated animals on the same frequency as the Na'vi?

Geeze. We saw the other Na'vi tribes. They are not nomadic hunter-gatherers. They're ALL sedentary and they ALL seem to have "homes" or territories where they were easily contacted by Jake Sully's scouts. They were ALL able to mobilize THOUSANDS of warriors! Hunter-gatherer societies don't DO that kind of thing!

And, yes. The Na'vi DO have wars between tribes. Geeze, that's what Blue Chick told Jake when they were talking about Toruk and how her ancestor who tamed the Toruks managed to unify the tribes in a time of great hardship...

Problem is, we do not SEE any other source of food.

It is not difficult to extrapolate the existence of other sources of food, if we see that the Na'vi civilizations and societies seem to be rather dissimilar to Earth hunter-gatherers with features that might preclude them from being categorized as merely hunter-gatherers.

Well, that is all nice - but as far as we can see, the Navi are NOT leaving their tree and do NOT have any other food source.

Then doesn't that contradict the traditional features of Earth hunter-gatherer societies?

Yes, it might be absurd (and you made good points to underline that) - but if we see it in the movie, that's what we have as data. You can not explain away data.

We saw that they hunted food. But that doesn't mean that they ONLY hunt food. Did we see anything that precluded farming or other food sources? Did we see anything that confirmed that they were EXCLUSIVE hunter-gatherers? The fact that they can exist as they do, in their state of sedentary lifestyle with large populations, might mean that there's something else out there... something happening in a place we'd like to call "off screen".

You can't really create a complete picture of any society, real or fictional, from a movie that's just two hours plus long. OF course there are going to be things that the movie doesn't include.

I mean, yes, the movie doesn't show us Na'vi farming. But it also doesn't show us Earth, either.

It is customary to link to your sources .
Anyway, we still did not see it in the movie, and the sole mention of "basic agriculture" could mean pretty much everything.

So what? There are things that we like to call "off screen". Unless you're one of those people who think that a two hour plus movie is the sole definition and the sole source of details on a world, be it real or fictitious, there ARE going to be things LEFT OUT from the friggin' movie.

I mean, geeze. Avatar doesn't show us Na'vi oral hygiene. Does this mean that the Na'vi are totally devoid of oral hygiene practices? We don't see Na'vis having designated areas for defecation, does this mean that the Na'vi just shit everywhere? We don't see homosexual Na'vi, does this mean that there are no gay Na'vi? We only saw the Na'vi with tamed horses and pterodactyls, does this mean that horses and pterodactyls are the ONLY tamed animals on Pandora?

When I was watching SEA BISCUIT, I only saw Tobey McPeterParker ride a horse. Does this mean that in the world of SEA BISCUIT, humans have only ever domesticated horses? I only saw domesticated doggies in Lassie, does this mean that human society relies solely on golden retrievers to save the day?

[Serafina]

But doesn't all of this mean that despite its non-active non-intervention, Eywa still DOES provide? The sentient planet and perhaps the unique features of Pandora that are indubitably NOT found on Earth makes it possible for the Na'vi to be relatively sedentary hunter-gatherers (if they ARE just hunter gatherers). These things can explain why their lifestyle is not comparable to hunter-gatherers.

HOW does Eywa "provide"?
All we have is the Navi saying that it does - well, "primitive" cultures all over the world did that, too - "Mother Nature/the Spirits/Gods/Ancestors/whatever provides".

How is this different from a simply food-rich enviorment?
And even IF the Navi are mainly an agricultural society (unlikey), then there are still no signs of Eywa actually doing anything to "provide".

I mean, do we even see hunter-gatherers who have domesticated wildlife? Aside from hunting dogs. Do we see hunter-gatherers with horses? Even if there are cases of these, do these hunter-gatherers with domestication have domesticated animals on the same frequency as the Na'vi?

Geeze. We saw the other Na'vi tribes. They are not nomadic hunter-gatherers. They're ALL sedentary and they ALL seem to have "homes" or territories where they were easily contacted by Jake Sully's scouts. They were ALL able to mobilize THOUSANDS of warriors! Hunter-gatherer societies don't DO that kind of thing!

Um...hunter-gathereres with horses...right, we never saw those, completely unimaginable

Besides, we had what, 20K warriors? A hundred tribes with 200 members each? Far from unimaginable.

Besides, we only saw tribes that did not live in the rainforest for what, 30 seconds? How do you know the coast-dwellers are not fishers and that the horse-tribes do not have herds?

And, yes. The Na'vi DO have wars between tribes. Geeze, that's what Blue Chick told Jake when they were talking about Toruk and how her ancestor who tamed the Toruks managed to unify the tribes in a time of great hardship...

How does that translate to "they were at war with each other"?
If people are living hundreds of miles away from each other, unifiying them IS a feat on its own, it does not require a previous state of war to be impressive.

It is not difficult to extrapolate the existence of other sources of food, if we see that the Na'vi civilizations and societies seem to be rather dissimilar to Earth hunter-gatherers with features that might preclude them from being categorized as merely hunter-gatherers.

But it seems unnecessary to do so. They live in an exponentially rich enviorment, with sophisticated hunting skills.
We have to explain those skills (why have them if you are a farmer?), and they do provide us with a way of explaining their lifestyle, without the need of other foodsources.

Then doesn't that contradict the traditional features of Earth hunter-gatherer societies?

Not leaving the tree? Perhaps - but we have/had numerous (at least partially) sedentary hunter-gatherers on earth
The lack of other food-sources? Definately strenghtens the hunter-gatherer theory.

We saw that they hunted food. But that doesn't mean that they ONLY hunt food. Did we see anything that precluded farming or other food sources? Did we see anything that confirmed that they were EXCLUSIVE hunter-gatherers? The fact that they can exist as they do, in their state of sedentary lifestyle with large populations, might mean that there's something else out there... something happening in a place we'd like to call "off screen".

You can't really create a complete picture of any society, real or fictional, from a movie that's just two hours plus long. OF course there are going to be things that the movie doesn't include.

I mean, yes, the movie doesn't show us Na'vi farming. But it also doesn't show us Earth, either.

Yes, it might be off-screen.
But you are just speculating, as long as you have no evidence OR a significant gap to fill that justifies the speculation.


By all means, provide sources and convince me. If it is in a Wiki, it should be piss-easy to link to it. But that's YOUR job, not mine, since it is your point. Do your own research and present it here.

[Bakustra]

When it comes to sedentary hunter-gatherers, the Native American tribes of the Pacific Northwest come to mind. They primarily subsisted on the salmon that lived in the rivers of that region, but did not develop the large-scale fish ponds, weirs, and other components of seafood agriculture, nor did they grow plants in gardens. There were also some sedentary groups in California to the south, who also lived in a highly fertile land and were thus able to sustain themselves in a sedentary lifestyle. It's worth noting that these groups were isolated from the horticultural and agricultural groups of the rest of North America by the Rocky Mountains and Great Basin, which were too harsh and inhospitable to allow the transmission of agriculture from the Southwest and Great Plains.

These groups had the advantage of a food source that was itself essentially stationary, and beyond their ability to deplete. Those conditions are also found within the Amazon, to an extent, and probably within other tropical rain forests around the world, though most such areas had agriculture introduced (the Congo, Southeast Asia, Indonesia). The conditions were fairly rare within other parts of the world, but the Na'vi, assuming that their food sources are fairly stationary and plentiful beyond their ability to seriously deplete, could easily be sedentary hunter-gatherers.

I mean, do we even see hunter-gatherers who have domesticated wildlife? Aside from hunting dogs. Do we see hunter-gatherers with horses? Even if there are cases of these, do these hunter-gatherers with domestication have domesticated animals on the same frequency as the Na'vi?

Geeze. We saw the other Na'vi tribes. They are not nomadic hunter-gatherers. They're ALL sedentary and they ALL seem to have "homes" or territories where they were easily contacted by Jake Sully's scouts. They were ALL able to mobilize THOUSANDS of warriors! Hunter-gatherer societies don't DO that kind of thing!

Um...hunter-gathereres with horses...right, we never saw those, completely unimaginable

Besides, we had what, 20K warriors? A hundred tribes with 200 members each? Far from unimaginable.

Besides, we only saw tribes that did not live in the rainforest for what, 30 seconds? How do you know the coast-dwellers are not fishers and that the horse-tribes do not have herds?

The Great Plains tribes of North America were settled farmers before the introduction of the horse, upon which a more mobile lifestyle became practical. They are technically not hunter-gathers, but rather pastoralists, much like the Mongols, Huns, and other North Asian tribes. Thousands of warriors would, assuming full military mobilization within a hunter-gatherer society, would require at least 300 members each (guessing), because, even assuming females and males are both warriors, there still are the elderly and children, who do need protectors. Assuming settled horticulturists/fishers/farmers merely makes the numbers worse, since they can devote less of their tribe to the war.

[SylasGaunt]

Got to see it on IMAX finally and noticed a few things or had my memory refreshed on them:

1.) I'd never noticed that the nacelles on the helicopters had two rotors in them before.

2.) Those monkey analogues with the fused forearms also only have one neural interface like the Na'vi.

3.) It bears repeating, Quaritch is an awesome bad-guy.

4.) As near as I can figure the shuttle was actually shifting to hover when it neared the end of its bomb run, presumably so they could actually hit what they were aiming at.

5.) The shuttle is damn sturdy considering a helicopter crashes onto it and it doesn't so much as wobble.

6.) As near as I can see there isn't a single approach vector for the tree of souls that doesn't involve going through the moutains.

7.) The arches around the Tree of Souls were bound to make any kind of bombing run an enormous pain in the ass considering some of them arch almost directly over it.

8.) I spotted two gun turrets on the bottom rear section of the Dragon I hadn't noticed before.

[NecronLord]

Besides, we had what, 20K warriors? A hundred tribes with 200 members each? Far from unimaginable.

Just back from the (3D) cinema; Jakesully said that they had two thousand warriors (the Col feared that numbers would go up to twenty K) from fifteen tribes; that's an average of just over 133 adult warriors per tribe represented, though of course, the Omaticaya's numbers would be reduced, and would exclude children and the elderly.

Head-counting the Omaticaya earlier in the film would give a greater number, I suspect, but it's possible that the other tribes didn't send all their warriors, not to mention however many are elders and such.

[Shroom Man 777]

HOW does Eywa "provide"?
All we have is the Navi saying that it does - well, "primitive" cultures all over the world did that, too - "Mother Nature/the Spirits/Gods/Ancestors/whatever provides".

How is this different from a simply food-rich enviorment?
And even IF the Navi are mainly an agricultural society (unlikey), then there are still no signs of Eywa actually doing anything to "provide".

By giving the Na'vi animals that can be instantaneously domesticated by sticking their dreadlocks into 'em? By having a whole ecosystem that sports such neural links, where even the top-predator is susceptible to Na'vi mind control?

And while the Na'vi say that "Eywa provides" and also say that "Eywa doesn't take sides" and is concerned with the "balance", they also have specific rituals where they gather en masse to the Tree of Souls to plug all of their neural links to the Soul Trees and ask Eywa for specific "favors" (like transplanting Sigourney Grace Ripley's mind to her Avatar, and Jake's too).

As much as "primitive" cultures all over the world did that, too - "Mother Nature/the Spirits/Gods/Ancestors/whatever provides"... their Mother Nature never provided them with anything like that. Eywa does.

Um...hunter-gathereres with horses...right, we never saw those, completely unimaginable

The beginning of this process in different regions has been dated from perhaps 10,000 years ago in Melanesia[4][5] to 2,500 BC in Subsaharan Africa, with some considering the developments of 9000-7000 BC in the Fertile Crescent to be the most important. This transition everywhere seems associated with a change from a largely nomadic hunter-gatherer way of life to a more settled, agrarian-based one, with the inception of the domestication of various plant and animal species—depending on the species locally available, and probably also influenced by local culture.

Neolithic Revolution

Isn't domestication one of the major factors that differentiate more advanced societies and civilizations from primitive hunter-gatherers?

Besides, we had what, 20K warriors? A hundred tribes with 200 members each? Far from unimaginable.

Besides, we only saw tribes that did not live in the rainforest for what, 30 seconds? How do you know the coast-dwellers are not fishers and that the horse-tribes do not have herds?

It might be off-screen. But you are just speculating, as long as you have no evidence OR a significant gap to fill that justifies the speculation.

How does that translate to "they were at war with each other"?
If people are living hundreds of miles away from each other, unifiying them IS a feat on its own, it does not require a previous state of war to be impressive.

The Na'vi are organized into different factions, and they have "warriors". That means that some time in the past, they may have had war with each other. I mean, why not? It's certainly not impossible. Are you saying that the concept of Na'vi having conflicts in the pass is merely something that may have occurred "off screen" and now we've got to dredge up evidence of past conflicts between the Na'vi?

The fact that they're far away from each other could be explained by past conflicts where one faction or party was usurped from their locale, like the Omaticaya could've kicked Tribe X's ass out of Home Tree after fighting for the "food rich environment" that allows them to live their sedentary lifestyle.

But come on. Inter-Na'vi wars are not something that's impossible.

But it seems unnecessary to do so. They live in an exponentially rich enviorment, with sophisticated hunting skills.
We have to explain those skills (why have them if you are a farmer?), and they do provide us with a way of explaining their lifestyle, without the need of other foodsources.

What if they're not all hunters? The only ones we saw hunting were Blue Chick, Jake, Tsu'tey? Na'vi medicine men, Na'vi storytellers, Na'vi architects and designers and artists - they also occur "off screen". Does this mean that I've got to dredge up evidence of these guys to exist?

You can't sum up entire societies and cultures by what scant little we see of them in a two hour plus long movie that provides an incomplete picture of the whole thing, man.

Not leaving the tree? Perhaps - but we have/had numerous (at least partially) sedentary hunter-gatherers on earth
The lack of other food-sources? Definately strenghtens the hunter-gatherer theory.

There's nothing to show that they were exclusively hunter-gatherers.

Yes, it might be off-screen.
But you are just speculating, as long as you have no evidence OR a significant gap to fill that justifies the speculation.

A sedentary community can not survive solely as hunter gatherer's. I think most of you are underestimating just how much energy a tribe of hunter gatherer's need to survive.

In Late Stone Age Hunters of the British Isles by Christopher Smith (have to read it for my prehistory of Britain course for my Archaeology degree ), it is estimated that a tribe of 20 humans who get 80% of their energy requirements from Reindeer would need a territory of 1900 square kilometers, with a Reindeer density of 8 per square kilometer (15,200 reindeer!) to maintain stable living conditions. That's a lot of space, and a lot of food! Of course, that estimate is only for Britain, and a rainforest environment might be able to sustain a slightly higher population density. It is worth noting though, that population density in modern hunter gatherer communities world wide is something like 0.012 people per square kilometer.

The only evidence of "sedentary" hunter gatherer communities are those that live on coasts and near rivers (At least in Britain). And that evidence is arguable at best.

@ Serafina if you can actually name me some tribes of hunter-gatherer's who do live a completely sedentary life-style, please show me! I would be interested to read about them, as I've never heard of such a thing.

Oh yeah, and just because you don't have agriculture, it dosn't mean you are a hunter-gatherer. You could have a pastoral community, or a horticultural community, or any mix of anything.

Even in a rainforest, a tribe as large as the Omaticaya just surviving off of hunting and gathering, I imagine would quickly outstrip the carrying capacity of their environment. I highly doubt they could live in the same area without moving around every few years. The increased range of the flying mounts wouldn't help much either, especially since it would mean the hunters would be limited to only carrying back relatively small prey. Not to mention that the Ikran are predatory animals which also seem to have quite a high metabolism, so you'd have to hunt even more to feed them as well! And the Omaticaya seem to have quite a few of them.

Plus, most of the larger prey animals are impervious to bullets (Like the hammerhead thing). How are they going to kill those things with flint tipped arrows? (hmm..traps maybe could work. But how are you going to butcher something, if you can't penetrate it's hide?) The only animal we see them hunting is a relatively small deer type creature, and you'd need to kill a lot of those to make the energy expended hunting worthwhile, and then still feed 300+ people back home.

It is possible that the plants on Pandora can provide a lot more energy than meat, and so serve as the major source of energy...but then why spend so much effort in hunting? (Unless it's a social elite thing, like fox hunting) Still though, unless these food plants are highly productive year-round, and can be stored with ease, I'd imagine they'd still need to move around a lot to get all the food they need.

Hell, even Iron Age and Dark Age farming communities exhibited migration over time, probably due to land-degradation. True sedentary lifestyles only existed in areas where there was some form of crop rotation, or something to keep the land in one place fertile over extended periods of time. Even modern native agricultural communities living in rainforests need to relocate periodically due to land degradation!

Factor in that real life hunter-gatherer communities don't really have any attachment to a specific plot of land, due to their mobility, and the whole idea of them fighting to the death for a stupid hometree is pretty absurd (At least to me).

Of course, the Pandorapedia says the Na'Vi have basic agriculture, so this whole argument is pretty moot.

Is this a significant enough gap to fill that justifies the speculation?

By all means, provide sources and convince me. If it is in a Wiki, it should be piss-easy to link to it. But that's YOUR job, not mine, since it is your point. Do your own research and present it here.

[/quote]

Pandorapedia

Omnivore. Hunter and gatherer with incipient agriculture, including brewing.

The abundant flora and fauna of Pandora have ensured a steady population of Na'vi; it is hypothesized that there was little Darwinian pressure to adapt new traits. Indeed, studies indicate that the number of Na'vi have remained remarkably consistent over the eons. The widespread access to natural resources has also helped limit (but not eliminate) warfare among the various Na'vi clans.

Mang, I should've looked this Pandorapedia up a long time ago! This IS pretty handy!

[Starglider]

It annoys me that there hasn't been a peep from all the continuity flaw wankers about the mind transfer in Avatar. You know the ones, the people who whine about how transporters kill and clone people and how an upload of a human 'can never be the same person'. Well guess what, not only is it pretty implausible that an alien tree can connect to and read a human's memories at all, the copying process is also going to be horribly inaccurate, much moreso than any plausible technological means. If you whine about uploads, transporters etc you should be whining ten times as hard about how Sully actually died and there is just a cloned Na'vi who thinks he is Sully. But no, apparently throw in some 'psychic' bullshit and organo-naturalist feel-good chanting and it's all good. Hey, does this mean that if we put a '100% organic' sticker on the transporter platform and play tribal music in the uploading suite you'll be ok with those too?

[K. A. Pital]

Samus sleeping with Ass Effect man is perfect. Because you know, Samus and him come from uh... space games, right? Snake does not. He has no place in the space future. Cue Shroom crying 'NOOOOO'.

The only better thing is Samus and the Ass Effect woman. I don't know who the hell could've played Mass Effect for a male with all the blue chick talk.