[Op-ed] China will rule the world in 30 years!

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[Op-ed] China will rule the world in 30 years!

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$123,000,000,000,000*
*China’s estimated economy by the year 2040. Be warned.
BY ROBERT FOGEL | JANUARY/FEBRUARY 2010

In 2040, the Chinese economy will reach $123 trillion, or nearly three times the economic output of the entire globe in 2000. China's per capita income will hit $85,000, more than double the forecast for the European Union, and also much higher than that of India and Japan. In other words, the average Chinese megacity dweller will be living twice as well as the average Frenchman when China goes from a poor country in 2000 to a superrich country in 2040. Although it will not have overtaken the United States in per capita wealth, according to my forecasts, China's share of global GDP -- 40 percent -- will dwarf that of the United States (14 percent) and the European Union (5 percent) 30 years from now. This is what economic hegemony will look like.

Most accounts of China's economic ascent offer little but vague or threatening generalities, and they usually grossly underestimate the extent of the rise -- and how fast it's coming. (For instance, a recent study by the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace predicts that by 2050, China's economy will be just 20 percent larger than that of the United States.) Such accounts fail to fully credit the forces at work behind China's recent success or understand how those trends will shape the future. Even China's own economic data in some ways actually underestimate economic outputs.

It's the same story with the relative decline of a Europe plagued by falling fertility as its era of global economic clout finally ends. Here, too, the trajectory will be more sudden and stark than most reporting suggests. Europe's low birthrate and its muted consumerism mean its contribution to global GDP will tumble to a quarter of its current share within 30 years. At that point, the economy of the 15 earliest EU countries combined will be an eighth the size of China's.

This is what the future will look like in a generation. It's coming sooner than we think.

What, precisely, does China have going so right for it?

The first essential factor that is often overlooked: the enormous investment China is making in education. More educated workers are much more productive workers. (As I have reported elsewhere, U.S. data indicate that college-educated workers are three times as productive, and a high school graduate is 1.8 times as productive, as a worker with less than a ninth-grade education.) In China, high school and college enrollments are rising steeply due to significant state investment. In 1998, then-President Jiang Zemin called for a massive increase in enrollment in higher education. At the time, just 3.4 million students were enrolled in China's colleges and universities. The response was swift: Over the next four years, enrollment in higher education increased 165 percent, and the number of Chinese studying abroad rose 152 percent. Between 2000 and 2004, university enrollment continued to rise steeply, by about 50 percent. I forecast that China will be able to increase its high school enrollment rate to the neighborhood of 100 percent and the college rate to about 50 percent over the next generation, which would by itself add more than 6 percentage points to the country's annual economic growth rate. These targets for higher education are not out of reach. It should be remembered that several Western European countries saw college enrollment rates climb from about 25 to 50 percent in just the last two decades of the 20th century.

And it's not just individual workers whose productivity jumps significantly as a result of more education; it's true of firms as well, according to work by economist Edwin Mansfield. In a remarkable 1971 study, Mansfield found that the presidents of companies that have been early adopters of complex new technologies were on average younger and better educated than heads of firms that were slower to innovate.

The second thing many underestimate when making projections for China's economy is the continued role of the rural sector. When we imagine the future, we tend to picture Shanghai high-rises and Guangdong factories, but changes afoot in the Chinese countryside have made it an underappreciated economic engine. In analyzing economic growth, it is useful to divide an economy into three sectors: agriculture, services, and industry. Over the quarter-century between 1978 and 2003, the growth of labor productivity in China has been high in each of these sectors, averaging about 6 percent annually. The level of output per worker has been much higher in industry and services, and those sectors have received the most analysis and attention. (I estimate that China's rapid urbanization, which shifts workers to industry and services, added 3 percentage points to the annual national growth rate.) However, productivity is increasing even for those who remain in rural areas. In 2009, about 55 percent of China's population, or 700 million people, still lived in the countryside. That large rural sector is responsible for about a third of Chinese economic growth today, and it will not disappear in the next 30 years.

Third, though it's a common refrain that Chinese data are flawed or deliberately inflated in key ways, Chinese statisticians may well be underestimating economic progress. This is especially true in the service sector because small firms often don't report their numbers to the government and officials often fail to adequately account for improvements in the quality of output. In the United States as well as China, official estimates of GDP badly underestimate national growth if they do not take into account improvements in services such as education and health care. (Most great advances in these areas aren't fully counted in GDP because the values of these sectors are measured by inputs instead of by output. An hour of a doctor's time is considered no more valuable today than an hour of a doctor's time was before the age of antibiotics and modern surgery.) Other countries have a similar national accounting problem, but the rapid growth of China's service sector makes the underestimation more pronounced.

Fourth, and most surprising to some, the Chinese political system is likely not what you think. Although outside observers often assume that Beijing is always at the helm, most economic reforms, including the most successful ones, have been locally driven and overseen. And though China most certainly is not an open democracy, there's more criticism and debate in upper echelons of policymaking than many realize. Unchecked mandates can of course lead to disaster, but there's a reason Beijing has avoided any repeats of the Great Leap Forward in recent years.

For instance, there is an annual meeting of Chinese economists called the Chinese Economists Society. I have participated in many of them. There are people in attendance who are very critical of the Chinese government -- and very openly so. Of course, they are not going to say "down with Hu Jintao," but they may point out that the latest decision by the finance ministry is flawed or raise concerns about a proposed adjustment to the prices of electricity and coal, or call attention to issues of equity. They might even publish a critical letter in a Beijing newspaper. Then the Chinese finance minister might actually call them up and say: "Will you get some of your people together? We would like to have some of our people meet with you and find out more about what you are thinking." Many people don't realize such back-and-forth occurs in Beijing. In this sense, Chinese economic planning has become much more responsive and open to new ideas than it was in the past.

Finally, people don't give enough credit to China's long-repressed consumerist tendencies. In many ways, China is the most capitalist country in the world right now. In the big Chinese cities, living standards and per capita income are at the level of countries the World Bank would deem "high middle income," already higher, for example, than that of the Czech Republic. In those cities there is already a high standard of living, and even alongside the vaunted Chinese propensity for saving, a clear and growing affinity for acquiring clothes, electronics, fast food, automobiles -- all a glimpse into China's future. Indeed, the government has made the judgment that increasing domestic consumption will be critical to China's economy, and a host of domestic policies now aim to increase Chinese consumers' appetite for acquisitions.

And Europe? Europe, by which I mean the 15 earliest EU members, faces twin challenges of demography and culture, its economic future burdened by a mix of reproductive habits and consumer restraint.

Europeans, of course, won't be eating grass in 2040. Their economic decline over the next 30 years will be relative, not absolute, as technological advances and other factors should allow Europe's overall labor productivity to continue to grow about 1.8 percent annually. Yet their percentage contribution to global GDP will tumble, shrinking by a factor of four, from 21 percent to 5 percent, in a generation.

Demography is the first key issue. The population of Western European countries has been aging rapidly, and that is likely to continue over the next several decades. The basic reason: European couples aren't producing enough babies. Europe's total fertility rate has been below the level needed to replace the population for about 34 years, according to a 2005 Rand Corp. study. As a result, the percentage of women of childbearing age will decline, in the earliest 15 EU countries, from about 50 percent in 2000 (it was also about 50 percent in 1950) to the U.N. projection of about 35 percent in 2040. So we have a double whammy: Not only will reproductive-age women have sharply reduced fertility rates, but the proportion of women who are in their childbearing years will also have declined sharply. By 2040, almost a third of Western Europe's population may be over age 65.

Why are there fewer babies? One key reason is that European attitudes toward sex have evolved sharply. One-hundred fifty years ago, it was considered a sin to enjoy sex, the only legitimate purpose for which was procreation. But today, young women believe that sex is mainly a recreational activity. Behind the fertility trend is a vast cultural shift from the generation that fought in World War II, which married early and produced the great baby boom of 1945 to 1965. The easy availability of birth control and the rise of sex as recreation mean that populations are likely to shrink in many European countries. As early as 2000, the natural rate of increase (births minus deaths) was already negative in Germany and Italy. By 2040, it is likely that the natural increase will be negative in the five largest European countries, except Britain.

So what if Europeans have a little fun now and then? Well, fun has consequences. Declining fertility pushes up the age of the citizenry and shrinks the percentage of people in the workforce, and so impedes growth. Demographic changes also shape the hiring and promotion structures of individual companies, and not necessarily for the better; if the elderly cling to the best jobs well past retirement age, younger workers may have to wait an extra decade, perhaps longer, to get their turn. And because younger workers are a major source of new ideas, slowing down the ascendancy of the next generation may retard the pace of technological change. (If fertility rates remain as low as they have been, Italy's population will fall by half in 50 years. Naturally, politicians are doing everything they can. They are joining with the Holy See and telling young women: Please procreate.)

In another way, Europe's culture confounds economists. Citizens of Europe's wealthy countries are not working longer hours to make higher salaries and accumulate more goods. Rather, European culture continues to prize long vacations, early retirements, and shorter work weeks over acquiring more stuff, at least in comparison to many other developed countries, such as the United States. In my observation, those living in most Western European countries appear to be more content than Americans with the kind of commodities they already have, for example, not aspiring to own more TVs per household. Set aside whether that's virtuous. A promenade in the Jardin du Luxembourg, as opposed to a trip to Walmart for a flat-screen TV, won't help the European Union's GDP growth.

Of course, China faces its own demographic nightmares, and skeptics point to many obstacles that could derail the Chinese bullet train over the next 30 years: rising income inequality, potential social unrest, territorial disputes, fuel scarcity, water shortages, environmental pollution, and a still-rickety banking system. Although the critics have a point, these concerns are no secret to China's leaders; in recent years, Beijing has proven quite adept in tackling problems it has set out to address. Moreover, history seems to be moving in the right direction for China. The most tumultuous local dispute, over Taiwan's sovereignty, now appears to be headed toward a resolution. And at home, the government's increasing sensitivity to public opinion, combined with improving living standards, has resulted in a level of popular confidence in the government that, in my opinion, makes major political instability unlikely.

Could Europe surprise us by growing substantially more than I have predicted? It seems farfetched, but it could happen, either by Europeans curtailing vacations and siesta time to adopt a more workaholic ethos, or by more young women and their partners aligning their views of sex more closely with those of the pope than those of movie stars. Anything's possible, but don't bet on it -- Europeans seem to like their lifestyles just fine, and they've long since given up their dreams of world domination. An unexpected technological breakthrough could also shake things up, though this isn't the sort of thing economists can base predictions on.

To the West, the notion of a world in which the center of global economic gravity lies in Asia may seem unimaginable. But it wouldn't be the first time. As China scholars, who take a long view of history, often point out, China was the world's largest economy for much of the last two millennia. (Chris Patten, the last British governor of Hong Kong, reckons China has been the globe's top economy for 18 of the past 20 centuries.) While Europe was fumbling in the Dark Ages and fighting disastrous religious wars, China cultivated the highest standards of living in the world. Today, the notion of a rising China is, in Chinese eyes, merely a return to the status quo.


Robert Fogel is director of the Center for Population Economics at the University of Chicago Booth School of Business and winner of the 1993 Nobel Memorial Prize in Economics.
So let me get this straight, in 30 years China will have twice the GDP of today's entire world put together. They will grow their economy at an average rate of 10% a year for the next 30 years. And they will magically solve all their water, food, resource, demographics, political, and other problems.

Can someone pass the hashpipe? Please? I need a dose of happy optimism here.
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Re: [Op-ed] China will rule the world in 30 years!

Post by Ryan Thunder »

What the fuck? We're already overconsuming by 50% or so last I checked, so increasing the global GDP by such a massive margin is simply impossible barring some sort of miracle. :wtf:
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Re: [Op-ed] China will rule the world in 30 years!

Post by AniThyng »

In another way, Europe's culture confounds economists. Citizens of Europe's wealthy countries are not working longer hours to make higher salaries and accumulate more goods. Rather, European culture continues to prize long vacations, early retirements, and shorter work weeks over acquiring more stuff, at least in comparison to many other developed countries, such as the United States. In my observation, those living in most Western European countries appear to be more content than Americans with the kind of commodities they already have, for example, not aspiring to own more TVs per household. Set aside whether that's virtuous. A promenade in the Jardin du Luxembourg, as opposed to a trip to Walmart for a flat-screen TV, won't help the European Union's GDP growth.
Arguably in this sense the EU has a much better quality of life, so does it matter if its share of GDP is lessened if they can still afford to do what they do?

He does seem to have ironically demonstrated that American style consumerism is arguably the reason for the debt crisis and the worlds environmental issues ;)
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Re: [Op-ed] China will rule the world in 30 years!

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I note a lot of "In my opinion" or "in my observation" in that article. That sure inspires confidence this guy knows what he's talking about, along with his frankly sickening "rampant consumerism is the One True Path" angle (note how he also claims the US will have about 3 times the GDP as the EU in 2050 because of this).

Anyway, he says that China will have a GDP of $123 trillion and 40% of the world's GDP by 2050, which would mean a global GDP of $308 trillion, or 7.5 times what it was in 2000: Pass the hash pipe indeed. Which reminds me, how much bigger can the world's GDP theoretically get (assuming current levels of growth) before resource and energy shortages impose a ceiling and economic growth becomes a zero-sum game for most nations (which is to say, resource wars)?
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Re: [Op-ed] China will rule the world in 30 years!

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Ma Deuce wrote:I note a lot of "In my opinion" or "in my observation" in that article. That sure inspires confidence this guy knows what he's talking about, along with his frankly sickening "rampant consumerism is the One True Path" angle (note how he also claims the US will have about 3 times the GDP as the EU in 2050 because of this).

Anyway, he says that China will have a GDP of $123 trillion and 40% of the world's GDP by 2050, which would mean a global GDP of $308 trillion, or 7.5 times what it was in 2000: Pass the hash pipe indeed. Which reminds me, how much bigger can the world's GDP theoretically get (assuming current levels of growth) before resource and energy shortages impose a ceiling and economic growth becomes a zero-sum game for most nations (which is to say, resource wars)?
We're past that point already, but not that many people have really noticed it yet.
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Re: [Op-ed] China will rule the world in 30 years!

Post by K. A. Pital »

China's bulk GDP will almost equal the US in the next 4-5 years even with a less-than-average growth (by PPP, of course).
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After that, I presume their growth would quite surely somewhat slow down, as it happens in all largely industrialized economies. Yet they have still lots of potential reserves to grow with.

$123 trillion nominal economy (or is it a PPP estimate?) means a total growth of 1500%, right? That is not possible even with an average 10% per year growth, or? I need someone to calculate accumulating percent now - is that possible?
J wrote:And they will magically solve all their water, food, resource, demographics, political, and other problems.
Most likely they would not solve them. But an economy with problems does not mean it cannot grow further. It just means that, it will have problems. Unless I see a real economic mathematic extrapolation model on how China's problems impact their growth (with factors explained), I can't really understand why a vague description of China's problems would impede their growth. After all, the West (and Europe in particular) swamped the world with it's industrial production, whilst having huge problems - demographic, political, and other.

I don't think China will become "123 trillion" economy in the next 30 years, but it will clearly become the world's largest economy in 10 years or so barring some miracle disaster; and in 20-30 years it might be larger than other economies combined, although that requires lots and lots of nuclear plants. By lots, I mean really lots, to reach a state like France where like 80% energy is derived from nuclear sources.
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Re: [Op-ed] China will rule the world in 30 years!

Post by ArmorPierce »

Stas Bush wrote:$123 trillion nominal economy (or is it a PPP estimate?) means a total growth of 1500%, right? That is not possible even with an average 10% per year growth, or? I need someone to calculate accumulating percent now - is that possible?
I ran the numbers. Unadjusted for inflation, it's possible for China to reach 123 trillion from 4.33 trillion gdp today if they maintain a 11.8% growth rate for 30 years. It is an obscene level of growth that I find hard to believe that they will be able to maintain for 30 years however.
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Re: [Op-ed] China will rule the world in 30 years!

Post by mr friendly guy »

Chinese policy is to aim for 8% growth. This presumably is to the number they reckon will keep on creating sufficient jobs for new graduates while keeping inflation down. That being said aiming for exactly 8% is difficult, as they apparently overshot the mark in 2009 with the stimulus package due to underestimation of their services sector.
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Re: [Op-ed] China will rule the world in 30 years!

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This asshole has made a shitload of unsupported assumptions for a time period spanning 30 years.
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Re: [Op-ed] China will rule the world in 30 years!

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So what if Europeans have a little fun now and then? Well, fun has consequences. Declining fertility pushes up the age of the citizenry and shrinks the percentage of people in the workforce, and so impedes growth. Demographic changes also shape the hiring and promotion structures of individual companies, and not necessarily for the better; if the elderly cling to the best jobs well past retirement age, younger workers may have to wait an extra decade, perhaps longer, to get their turn. And because younger workers are a major source of new ideas, slowing down the ascendancy of the next generation may retard the pace of technological change. (If fertility rates remain as low as they have been, Italy's population will fall by half in 50 years. Naturally, politicians are doing everything they can. They are joining with the Holy See and telling young women: Please procreate.)
In the first place, his wife must have had a very sad life. Secondly, his rage at Europeans who like to "have fun" results in a blanket, inaccurate argument. Immigration movements into Europe are strong and will only get stronger, and to some measure attenuate the lower birth rates impact. Most importantly, low birth rates are not an inevitable consequence of the European life style. Systems that allows couples (in special women) to combine children with a career through good child care and generous tax breaks have been proven to work. In France, the country that leads the EU in such matters, the birthrate is 1.9, which is actually above the replacement rate when immigration is accounted for. In Germany, changes in the benefit scheme has made the birthrate increase from 1.33%, the lowest in Europe, to 1.37% in a couple years. Turns out that when you provide people with conditions to balance career and child raising people respond positively. What a shock!
In another way, Europe's culture confounds economists. Citizens of Europe's wealthy countries are not working longer hours to make higher salaries and accumulate more goods. Rather, European culture continues to prize long vacations, early retirements, and shorter work weeks over acquiring more stuff, at least in comparison to many other developed countries, such as the United States. In my observation, those living in most Western European countries appear to be more content than Americans with the kind of commodities they already have, for example, not aspiring to own more TVs per household. Set aside whether that's virtuous. A promenade in the Jardin du Luxembourg, as opposed to a trip to Walmart for a flat-screen TV, won't help the European Union's GDP growth.
:lol: This paragraph is just much more telling about himself than what economists think in general (they can't be all so clueless, right?). Those confounding Europeans! How dare they not have a brand new TV per room and spend their few, precious hours of not-work obediently watching it, instead of working 8 hours a day and enjoying the rest of the day and their 6 weeks paid vacations to go to places, do things and have more fun debt free than I've ever had in my hard working life? Blast them, they have it coming!
Could Europe surprise us by growing substantially more than I have predicted? It seems farfetched, but it could happen, either by Europeans curtailing vacations and siesta time to adopt a more workaholic ethos, or by more young women and their partners aligning their views of sex more closely with those of the pope than those of movie stars. Anything's possible, but don't bet on it -- Europeans seem to like their lifestyles just fine, and they've long since given up their dreams of world domination. An unexpected technological breakthrough could also shake things up, though this isn't the sort of thing economists can base predictions on.
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Re: [Op-ed] China will rule the world in 30 years!

Post by K. A. Pital »

ArmorPierce wrote:It is an obscene level of growth that I find hard to believe that they will be able to maintain for 30 years however.
It's not a "obscene" level of growth for a certain period of time (during industrialization), but once China starts reaching the general socio-economic proportions of an industrialized society, there would not be much left to grow to.

Economy is not some sort of a magic bubble that can keep growing indefinetely. Means of production can be expanded infinetely, sure (until you hit resource drains), but once the economy is industrialized, the growth slows down - it is a rule for the First World, Second World and all other industrialized economies if such exist in the world. There can be a steep rise from a low base, but once you reach a high base, you can hardly do so much.

China's position is definetely emboldened by the colossal scale of industry they are creating, which is undeniably going to soon outmatch the industrial peaks of huge superpowers like USA and USSR back in the day, but in the end, there are natural limits to growth of industrial economies.

China cannot easily reach a First World GDP per capita level, because there would not be a second China next to it which woudl provide cheap goods for wage/price disparity and thereby inflate the life level and consumption to new highs. But it can find an internal balance which I would peg at ~18 000-20 000 GDP/capita. By the time China reaches that, it will be almost as large as the US and Europe combined. It's citizens would enjoy a modest Second World life level, when their wages and prices even out. The life level of the First World would thereby slightly decrease as Chinese goods get more expensive while First World GDPs and therefore personal incomes grow much, much less (in fact, the incomes of the vast majority of working First Worlders can actually stay flat or even decrease if the income distribution stays the same way).

I presume that happening in 10-15 years depending on how well China's situation turns out.

I also see nothing bad about it. The First World has grown to a very high life level. Why should it grow further? Europe's (and USA's) life level is high already and so what if they don't grow? They have reached a very good level where even a small absolute growth is fine. Their relative decline versus China is only welcome, because that means more nations and more people attain a higher life level.
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Re: [Op-ed] China will rule the world in 30 years!

Post by The Duchess of Zeon »

Let's see what his life is like:

Sunday: Toss a five in the offering plate at church and act like this makes you into a righteous Christian when you make 80k a year. Then go home and watch an NFL game on your 60 in TV. Check.
Monday-Friday: Work 8 hours a day and then come home and work on your computer for 6 hours on top of that to meet deadlines. Eat the same thing that your wife brings home from Boston Market every night and pretend it's good home cooking. Too tired for sex. Check.
Saturday: Write up a couple assholish op-eds, watch a college football game on your 60 in TV, go to the bar and get plastered, drive home drunk, have missionary sex with your wife to make her pop out another kid. Check.

Rinse and repeat for the next week!

I'm prepared to make quite a lot of effort to emigrate to a European country with decent standards of living and humane and stable treatment of workers when I have an education in hand to make that process relatively painless. That's because I don't want to spend my life in a rat race, and I'd like to raise children in a part of the world where their healthcare and college tuitions will be free....

...But best of all I love how he totally glosses over the Chinese demographic issues so blatantly. Maybe he thinks they'll all convert to Christianity and start popping out six children per family again or something, and the resources will keep magically Excel trendlining like Manna from heaven and the world will never have any consequences from that happening.
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Re: [Op-ed] China will rule the world in 30 years!

Post by Colonel Olrik »

Stas Bush wrote:The life level of the First World would thereby slightly decrease as Chinese goods get more expensive while First World GDPs and therefore personal incomes grow much, much less (in fact, the incomes of the vast majority of working First Worlders can actually stay flat or even decrease if the income distribution stays the same way).

I presume that happening in 10-15 years depending on how well China's situation turns out.

I also see nothing bad about it. The First World has grown to a very high life level. Why should it grow further? Europe's (and USA's) life level is high already and so what if they don't grow? They have reached a very good level where even a small absolute growth is fine. Their relative decline versus China is only welcome, because that means more nations and more people attain a higher life level.
I agree. Besides, those cheap Chinese imports becoming a lot more expensive will finally shut up the "we only need a service economy anyway, so tough luck" assholes and allow for the growth and partial rebirth of the technological industry.
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Re: [Op-ed] China will rule the world in 30 years!

Post by Surlethe »

Stas Bush wrote:
ArmorPierce wrote:It is an obscene level of growth that I find hard to believe that they will be able to maintain for 30 years however.
It's not a "obscene" level of growth for a certain period of time (during industrialization), but once China starts reaching the general socio-economic proportions of an industrialized society, there would not be much left to grow to.
We're pretty much talking catch-up here. The Chinese economy will grow massively until the capital distribution starts looking like the Second World or First World. The real question is how long it will take, and I'm not so sure that it will be less than thirty years. China, despite having some of the largest cities in the world, is still mostly agrarian. According to the CIA world factbook, 57% of the country is still rural (non-urban) -- compare that to the US (18%), Canada (20%), Germany (26%), Russia (27%), and UK (10%). If we take ruralization as a crude indicator of amount of capital per-capita, China will continue to grow at something like this rate until it has about 80% urbanization.

Have to go, more on your post later.
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Re: [Op-ed] China will rule the world in 30 years!

Post by K. A. Pital »

Yeah, urbanization is part of what I had in mind when talking about industrial growth. However, you wouldn't deny that Russia/USSR was already well industrialized by 1989, right? The urban-rural proportion was 66% to 34% in 1989, IIRC. So I think China will reach a typical Second World distribution much faster than it would reach a distribution similar to the First World (if it ever does, because population dynamics are more complex at that stage).
Surlethe wrote:We're pretty much talking catch-up here.
Exactly, but in China's case, even "catching up" and reaching the typical Second World per capita incomes would mean exceeding, by bulk size, the flagships of the First World (USA and Europe). If China reaches First World levels of income (which is very hard, unless they use India and entire poor SEA from Vietnam to Bangladesh and Cambodia as their cheap labour source), it's bulk GDP size would be even greater.
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Re: [Op-ed] China will rule the world in 30 years!

Post by mr friendly guy »

Stas Bush wrote:Yeah, urbanization is part of what I had in mind when talking about industrial growth. However, you wouldn't deny that Russia/USSR was already well industrialized by 1989, right? The urban-rural proportion was 66% to 34% in 1989, IIRC. So I think China will reach a typical Second World distribution much faster than it would reach a distribution similar to the First World (if it ever does, because population dynamics are more complex at that stage).
Surlethe wrote:We're pretty much talking catch-up here.
Exactly, but in China's case, even "catching up" and reaching the typical Second World per capita incomes would mean exceeding, by bulk size, the flagships of the First World (USA and Europe). If China reaches First World levels of income (which is very hard, unless they use India and entire poor SEA from Vietnam to Bangladesh and Cambodia as their cheap labour source), it's bulk GDP size would be even greater.
Just a few questions given your hypothetical scenario?
1. What would most Chinese workers be doing it not manufacturing?
2. Is it a good idea to give up one's manufacturing base in lure of cheaper goods? As mentioned numerous times on this board by members who bemoan <insert country x> outsourcing its manufacturing, plus the fact that in the event of economic downturn China can redirect its industry elsewhere (I think it was you who mentioned this before).
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Re: [Op-ed] China will rule the world in 30 years!

Post by K. A. Pital »

mr friendly guy wrote:What would most Chinese workers be doing it not manufacturing?
Manufacturing.
mr friendly guy wrote:Is it a good idea to give up one's manufacturing base in lure of cheaper goods?
No, it's not a good idea, but that's the only way to increase your life level when you start hitting the limits of industrial society. Well, either that, or a hefty injection of socialism (see welfare state in Europe).
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Re: [Op-ed] China will rule the world in 30 years!

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It wouldn't surprise me at all if China exceeds by bulk size the US and EU. In fact, it would surprise me very greatly if China and India didn't exceed the US and EU in bulk size by 2020. There is simply too much untapped human capital; the only thing that needs to happen is for existing technologies to complete migration from the First World to China/India for maximum-efficiency exploitation of the potential.
Stas Bush wrote:Yeah, urbanization is part of what I had in mind when talking about industrial growth. However, you wouldn't deny that Russia/USSR was already well industrialized by 1989, right? The urban-rural proportion was 66% to 34% in 1989, IIRC. So I think China will reach a typical Second World distribution much faster than it would reach a distribution similar to the First World (if it ever does, because population dynamics are more complex at that stage).
That makes sense, but the USSR of the late 1980s is still significantly more urbanized than the China of now. I was trying to take the rural/urban divide as a proxy indicator of the economy's level of capitalization -- an efficient, modern economy will have maybe 2% or 3% of the population devoted to farming, and a proportionally high level of urbanization, while an uncapitalized economy will be less capitalized, less efficient, and have more of the population devoted to agricultural production.
Economy is not some sort of a magic bubble that can keep growing indefinetely. Means of production can be expanded infinetely, sure (until you hit resource drains), but once the economy is industrialized, the growth slows down - it is a rule for the First World, Second World and all other industrialized economies if such exist in the world. There can be a steep rise from a low base, but once you reach a high base, you can hardly do so much.

China's position is definetely emboldened by the colossal scale of industry they are creating, which is undeniably going to soon outmatch the industrial peaks of huge superpowers like USA and USSR back in the day, but in the end, there are natural limits to growth of industrial economies.
You can probably encapsulate the entire story of China with this. In fact, I'd rephrase your point as "diminishing returns to capital" -- at this point, the introduction of capital has a proportionally high marginal impact on China's growth, while in First World countries, it's largely saturated. Even new forms of capital, like the computer which ushered in the USA's technological revolution of the '90s, eventually work their way to the point where new investment is ever less productive.
China cannot easily reach a First World GDP per capita level, because there would not be a second China next to it which woudl provide cheap goods for wage/price disparity and thereby inflate the life level and consumption to new highs.
India?
But it can find an internal balance which I would peg at ~18 000-20 000 GDP/capita. By the time China reaches that, it will be almost as large as the US and Europe combined. It's citizens would enjoy a modest Second World life level, when their wages and prices even out. The life level of the First World would thereby slightly decrease as Chinese goods get more expensive while First World GDPs and therefore personal incomes grow much, much less (in fact, the incomes of the vast majority of working First Worlders can actually stay flat or even decrease if the income distribution stays the same way).
Even if Chinese growth slows, I suspect it will still grow slightly more quickly than the US or Europe -- maybe China will grow at 3% or 4%, the US at 2.5% or 3%, and Europe at 2% or so. There is tremendous growth potential to the Chinese (and Indian) economies yet, and it's undeniable that a fully industrialized, technologically advanced China will ultimately benefit the First World and Second World more than the relative income declines will hurt them.
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Re: [Op-ed] China will rule the world in 30 years!

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I also see nothing bad about it. The First World has grown to a very high life level. Why should it grow further? Europe's (and USA's) life level is high already and so what if they don't grow? They have reached a very good level where even a small absolute growth is fine. Their relative decline versus China is only welcome, because that means more nations and more people attain a higher life level.
This would be fine - if the population in the First World countries and particularly the US weren't still growing. But the US population, for example, is still expected to grow quite a bit, to around 439 million by 2050 according to the latest estimates. Without real income growth, that will probably cause real income in the US (and per capita income) to decline.

That said, I think both the US and China could hold largely First World lifestyles, although it obviously depends on what you define as a "first world" lifestyle. It doesn't necessarily require large suburban houses, multiple cars, 3000 calories a day with massive meat consumption, or the copious use of fossil-fuel-based power.
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Re: [Op-ed] China will rule the world in 30 years!

Post by Broomstick »

{{{yawn}}}

20 years ago everyone was saying the Japanese were going to take over the world. Similar overblown estimates of an every-growing economy were bandied about.

Could China come to dominate the globe. Yep, it's possible - but the growth rates proposed in the OP are impossible over that span of time. China will become more and more important (assuming no massive fuckups) but they won't become rulers of all.
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Re: [Op-ed] China will rule the world in 30 years!

Post by Arthur_Tuxedo »

Throughout most of history China was undisputedly the world's strongest economy. For a nation with strong pro-savings, pro-education traditions and 1.3 billion people to eventually eclipse a nation like the US is practically inevitable. However, this rosy Op-Ed and ones like it are absolutely absurd. First of all, it's become increasingly obvious that China is in a massive asset bubble and is poised for a major crash, and crystal meth consumption is the only way to believe their recent GDP estimates. Then you have the fact that much of their recent growth has involved grand-scale consumption of dwindling resources whose prices will almost certainly skyrocket over the next couple of decades and whose replacements are 20 or more years away. Piled on top of that, the one-child policy has created a huge imbalance between older people set to retire and younger working people, something which first world nations also face but which China faces without the same kind of built-in protections like pensions, 401k's, social security, etc. Then you realize that their growth is based on cheap manufacturing, and as their standard of living wages rise it will gradually blot out that advantage and poorer countries will start to outcompete them in that area, making indefinite 8+% growth rate projections implausible, to say the least.

None of these are things that will stand in China's way forever, but as of 2010 they are akin to a speeding bullet train headed straight for a brick wall. I believe the "rising dragon" story over the course of the 21st century, but the next couple of decades will be very rough on China, even moreso than the rest of the world. As an investor, I wouldn't touch China with a 10 foot pole right now, and the more people dance in the streets singing its praises, the more I brace for impact. It wasn't that long ago when people were saying the same shit about Japan, and look how that turned out.
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Re: [Op-ed] China will rule the world in 30 years!

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Arthur_Tuxedo wrote:Throughout most of history China was undisputedly the world's strongest economy.
Undoubtedly, you don't really know much about the roman empire. Or the British Empire.
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Re: [Op-ed] China will rule the world in 30 years!

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Thanas wrote:
Arthur_Tuxedo wrote:Throughout most of history China was undisputedly the world's strongest economy.
Undoubtedly, you don't really know much about the roman empire. Or the British Empire.
(1) If one considers 2000 years of history, would one say the Roman Empire eclipsed China for 500 years and the British Empire for 500 years? Then his statement is still mostly correct.
(2) What were the relative productions of the various empires throughout history, anyway? Is there an easily accessible source one can use for these data?
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Re: [Op-ed] China will rule the world in 30 years!

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Surlethe wrote:
Thanas wrote:
Arthur_Tuxedo wrote:Throughout most of history China was undisputedly the world's strongest economy.
Undoubtedly, you don't really know much about the roman empire. Or the British Empire.
(1) If one considers 2000 years of history, would one say the Roman Empire eclipsed China for 500 years and the British Empire for 500 years? Then his statement is still mostly correct.
In 0 China had 60 million people. Up to the year 1000 China barely reached 40 million people. Compare that with the Roman empire, which had 57 million in 25 BCE and reached 88 million in 117 and most likely expanding to over 100 million during the second century. Italy alone had a population of over 10 million back then. Even after the fall of the Roman Empire the Byzantine Empire arguably had as strong an economy as china.

So arguably the whole period of 0-~700 is out. Of course in the middle ages no nation ever reached the population level of china by itself. However, if one accepts a common European economy back then (mostly the HRE, Sicily, France and Spain) they probably outproduce China already back then, but there was no political unity back then.

The muslim world also is a strong contender.

Of course, then we have the Spanish Empire, the French under Louis XIV and of course the British Empire. So I would say that China was the dominant economy from ~700-1550, which is not really enough for most of history. Arguably, it was not even the longest-reigning economy, for if we take the Roman Republic together with the Roman Empire, the Romans certainly take the cake.

(2) What were the relative productions of the various empires throughout history, anyway? Is there an easily accessible source one can use for these data?
For the modern period, the best and easiest accessible source is The Rise and Fall of the Great Powers: Economic Change and Military Conflict From 1500 to 2000, by Paul Kennedy. It goes into great detail and covers both the western and the asian world. What I wrote above is mainly quoted from memory from his book.
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Re: [Op-ed] China will rule the world in 30 years!

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Thanas wrote:
Surlethe wrote:
Thanas wrote: Undoubtedly, you don't really know much about the roman empire. Or the British Empire.
(1) If one considers 2000 years of history, would one say the Roman Empire eclipsed China for 500 years and the British Empire for 500 years? Then his statement is still mostly correct.
In 0 China had 60 million people. Up to the year 1000 China barely reached 40 million people. Compare that with the Roman empire, which had 57 million in 25 BCE and reached 88 million in 117 and most likely expanding to over 100 million during the second century. Italy alone had a population of over 10 million back then. Even after the fall of the Roman Empire the Byzantine Empire arguably had as strong an economy as china.

So arguably the whole period of 0-~700 is out. Of course in the middle ages no nation ever reached the population level of china by itself. However, if one accepts a common European economy back then (mostly the HRE, Sicily, France and Spain) they probably outproduce China already back then, but there was no political unity back then.

The muslim world also is a strong contender.

Of course, then we have the Spanish Empire, the French under Louis XIV and of course the British Empire. So I would say that China was the dominant economy from ~700-1550, which is not really enough for most of history. Arguably, it was not even the longest-reigning economy, for if we take the Roman Republic together with the Roman Empire, the Romans certainly take the cake.
If I recall things correctly, I thought that the various European powers have a pretty long history of buying more stuff from the various far eastern states than selling their products to them?


For the modern period, the best and easiest accessible source is The Rise and Fall of the Great Powers: Economic Change and Military Conflict From 1500 to 2000, by Paul Kennedy. It goes into great detail and covers both the western and the asian world. What I wrote above is mainly quoted from memory from his book.
Is there any books that focus on trade relations in the classical era?
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