Cloning and Force Sensitivity

[Kingmaker]

In the Jedi Academy Trilogy, we the Dorsk X (I forget the number) guy, and in the Thrawn Trilogy we Joruus C'boath and Luuke Skywalker. Dorsk was apparently caused by a mutation in the Dorsk line of clones. The C'boath and Skywalker clones were both batshit bonkers. However, all three demonstrate that it is possible to clone force-sensitives and get a force-sensitive.

Aside from these instances, is the possibility of cloning force sensitive individuals ever brought up? I can understand why the Jedi Orders might be leery of doing so, and a lot of the primitive culture force traditions simply don't have access to cloning tech, but does anyone else ever attempt to create an army of cloned jedi or something?

[Darth Paxis]

The main character in the most recent PSP Battlefront game is a clone of a Jedi, his twin is also Force Sensitive, but sticks with the Empire and turns evil.

Probably low enough on the canon list to not count in continuity, but worth mentioning.

Also, IIRC wasn't Dorsk 81 replaced by Dorsk 82 after 81 died beating Exar Kun.

As for the possibility of a force sensitive clone army, if midichlorian count determines force sensitivity, wouldn't a clone of a force sensitive have a similar level of force sensitivity, therefore making the army wouldn't necessarily be the problem, but training such an army might prove to be more difficult depending on whether you wanted an army of troops with nascent abilities, a slightly developed danger sense, for instance, or an army of force users on par with your average Jedi Knight or Master.

[Kingmaker]

As for the possibility of a force sensitive clone army, if midichlorian count determines force sensitivity, wouldn't a clone of a force sensitive have a similar level of force sensitivity, therefore making the army wouldn't necessarily be the problem, but training such an army might prove to be more difficult depending on whether you wanted an army of troops with nascent abilities, a slightly developed danger sense, for instance, or an army of force users on par with your average Jedi Knight or Master.

Well, we see with Jedi Knights, and to a lesser extent with other force sensitive warriors, a properly trained and employed force user is worth a whole lot of regular troops. You wouldn't even really need an army-just, say, a 3 million strong clone army . Give them all special operations training and a few years of practice with the combat applications of the Force, and you've got yourself a legion of bona fide supercommandos to back up your Droid hordes.

[Simon_Jester]

Joruus and Luuke were cloned Force users, but they were also crazy, as you say. This may not be a coincidence.

Nobody seems to have tried mass-cloning Jedi, and there may be a reason: some horrible accident that resulted from an attempt to do this in the pre-Republic or early Republic era that led to dozens or even thousands of mad Force users rampaging across the galaxy.

[PainRack]

In Dark Rendevous, it was noted that injecting midichlorians into the general populace had very bad effects.... Anyone has the novel to verify this?

If so, perhaps that might have a role to play regarding clones. Thrawn clones were "protected" from insanity via ysalamari. Force sensitive clones may not enjoy such protection after the Force rushed into them.


Also..... why is everyone saying Luuke was crazy? Wasn't that clone entirely mindcontrolled by Joruus?

[Darksider]

That's true, and doesn't the Outbound Flight novel indicate that Jorus C'boath wasn't the most stable individual to begin with? It's possible that the cloning process, and the in-rush of force energy could amplify whatever traits are already there.

[Thanas]

Thrawn himself said that cloning a force user, while of course possible, takes up a lot of time (he said years) and great care. So cloning does not affect the force, but with any force user, you better be very, very good in cloning and you better not make a single mistake.

Furthermore, there is also Palpatine himself, probably the most important force-user clone ever.

[Kingmaker]

Furthermore, there is also Palpatine himself, probably the most important force-user clone ever.

Ah, yes. I forgot about that. Were the clones of Palpatine crazy(/ier) than the original, body-surfing Palps?

Thrawn himself said that cloning a force user, while of course possible, takes up a lot of time (he said years) and great care. So cloning does not affect the force, but with any force user, you better be very, very good in cloning and you better not make a single mistake.

So you aren't going to get a force-sensitive commando brigade on the cheap. Damn. On the other hand, it could still be worth it if you have a loyal force user to use as a template (for flash training). You might not have access to industrial quantities of force users, but they could be handy for operations where quantity can't easily make up for quality (i.e. espionage).

[Thanas]

We don't know what made Palpatine crazy, but his clone bodies being poisoned by his physician could not really have helped much in that matter.

Flash training does not work on high-quality clones. Thrawn himself had his own clone set to a ten years minimum and he was no force use, "just" the best strategic and tactical mind in existence. You really should not flash train a jedi clone, what happens when clone rage kicks in?

I have my own theory that with species that store their memory in more easily identifiable locations that can be replaced by prosthetics (like the Twi'Lek Lekku), at least memory transfer might be more easier, but that still does not mean you have a trained force user, merely that you have a mind with certain memories.

[Bellator]

In Dark Rendevous, it was noted that injecting midichlorians into the general populace had very bad effects.... Anyone has the novel to verify this?

I thought midichlorians were the result of a person's force sensitivity, not the cause? So why would that be expected to work? Or am I mistaken?

[Ritterin Sophia]

We don't know what made Palpatine crazy, but his clone bodies being poisoned by his physician could not really have helped much in that matter.

Wait I thought that was Carnor Jax, the Imperial Sovereign Protector and wannabe Sith Lord, who contaminated Palpies genetic material stockpile?

[Darth Yan]

he bribed the physician into doing so. the physician did the dirty work, jax put him up to it.

[PainRack]

I thought midichlorians were the result of a person's force sensitivity, not the cause? So why would that be expected to work? Or am I mistaken?

Dark Rendevous took a..... different track.
Or rather, the mad scientist who took that tack believed that it was the midichlorians which caused Force Sensitivity.

[Havok]

The Luke and Jorus clones were crazy because of the Spartii Cylinders used and the speed at which they cloned people. It has nothing to do IIRC with the fact they were clones of Force sensitives, but that the cloning process because of the Force being present didn't happen correctly. Anyone cloned in that way ended up crazy. That's why Thrawn needed the anti-Force worms to keep the clones free from the Force during the accelerated growth period.

Palpatine was crazy because of the transfer of consciousness and his time spent in the crazy darkness, or whatever they called it, trying to get to his cloned bodies on Byss after Endor. However Palpatine was not a standard clone as it was always the original Palpatine just in a new body.

[Havok]

In Dark Rendevous, it was noted that injecting midichlorians into the general populace had very bad effects.... Anyone has the novel to verify this?

I thought midichlorians were the result of a person's force sensitivity, not the cause? So why would that be expected to work? Or am I mistaken?

Everyone already has midichlorians. The more you have the better you can feel/use the Force. They are not the result of Force sensitivity, but the cause.

[Darth Hoth]

The Luke and Jorus clones were crazy because of the Spartii Cylinders used and the speed at which they cloned people. It has nothing to do IIRC with the fact they were clones of Force sensitives, but that the cloning process because of the Force being present didn't happen correctly. Anyone cloned in that way ended up crazy. That's why Thrawn needed the anti-Force worms to keep the clones free from the Force during the accelerated growth period.

The truth is left deliberately ambiguous in the extant canon. In the books, Thrawn theorised that rapid cloning created Force bonds between original and clone (irrespective of relative Force-sensitivity, since all sentients are part of the Force at least tangentially), which caused the insanity. However, it was only ever presented as his opinion; other sources claim that the rapid growth and/or flash-learning adversely affected the brain more directly.

[Darth Hoth]

In Dark Rendevous, it was noted that injecting midichlorians into the general populace had very bad effects.... Anyone has the novel to verify this?

I thought midichlorians were the result of a person's force sensitivity, not the cause? So why would that be expected to work? Or am I mistaken?

Everyone already has midichlorians. The more you have the better you can feel/use the Force. They are not the result of Force sensitivity, but the cause.

Disembodied spirits, who by definition can host no corporeal symbiotes, can use powerful Force abilities (see, for example, freedon Nadd). Clearly midichlorians are, at the very least, not the sole cause of Force ability.

[Havok]

I thought midichlorians were the result of a person's force sensitivity, not the cause? So why would that be expected to work? Or am I mistaken?

Everyone already has midichlorians. The more you have the better you can feel/use the Force. They are not the result of Force sensitivity, but the cause.

Disembodied spirits, who by definition can host no corporeal symbiotes, can use powerful Force abilities (see, for example, freedon Nadd). Clearly midichlorians are, at the very least, not the sole cause of Force ability.

I didn't say they were. I said they were the cause of sensitivity. I didn't realize that I had to spell out the obvious that I was talking about the living. Obviously, Force Ghosts have a direct connection to the Force and again, obviously, aren't dependent on a symbiotic relationship taking place in your blood on a cellular level.

I guess it's my fault for not factoring in the "spell out every detail retard faction".

[Havok]

The Luke and Jorus clones were crazy because of the Spartii Cylinders used and the speed at which they cloned people. It has nothing to do IIRC with the fact they were clones of Force sensitives, but that the cloning process because of the Force being present didn't happen correctly. Anyone cloned in that way ended up crazy. That's why Thrawn needed the anti-Force worms to keep the clones free from the Force during the accelerated growth period.

The truth is left deliberately ambiguous in the extant canon. In the books, Thrawn theorised that rapid cloning created Force bonds between original and clone (irrespective of relative Force-sensitivity, since all sentients are part of the Force at least tangentially), which caused the insanity. However, it was only ever presented as his opinion; other sources claim that the rapid growth and/or flash-learning adversely affected the brain more directly.

And? Either way, it is the fast growing Spartii cylinders that create the crazy clones. Whether the Force makes them crazy or just the process itself, they still end up crazy, which was my point.

[Solauren]

The problem with force cloning was stated by Leia in 'The Last Command'. In short, she said there is a natural resonance set up between a clone and the original via the Force. That's what breaks the mind of a clone grown to fast. It's mind doesn't have time to adapt to the preasure on it during the growth process, and it breaks.

Thrawn was getting around that by blocking the Force with Ysalamari, giving the clone minds time to fully mature before hatching. They hatch, probably take a few days to get 'oriented' within the protected facility, and then walk out into the Force, minds ready to go and able to resist the 'Force Preasure'.

Case in point, I don't recall ever hearing about a Thrawn-created clone going 'insane'. We have a few failed experiments (i.e the STormtrooper that Thrawn included part of his own mind into), but no 'Clone Rage' or Unstable clones.

The question of course is, would that work with a Force-sensitive/trained Jedi?


Thrawn never addressed that directly. He said creating a clone of C'boath (or by extension, another Force-sensitive) was a delicate projected. He wanted the clone 'raised under suitable upbringing conditions'. In other words, he didn't want to rapid-clone C'boath, and then flash-print him with some Stormtrooper profile.

He wanted someone that had grown up and properly learned to use the force, while being raised loyal. He probably didn't want what essential a Force-empowered Stormtrooper getting Dark-side powered delussions of Granduer.

That would probably be, problematic.


As for creating an Army of Force-Sensitives, that was actually suggested directly by the Kaminoians in the Attack of the Clones novelization. They stated to Obi-wan they'd hoped to get a Jedi to use as the cloning template for the Grand Army. This actually horrified (or terrified, can't remember whick) Obi-wan. He was worried about what a Army of that size would do, with every member potientally being the equal of a Jedi Knight or better. (even an army of well trained and skilled Padawans would be scary as hell).

Personally, I like the idea of a massive army of Kamino grown and trained Stormtroopers with Jedi Knight combat abilities. That would be an awesome Force in any military scenario.

Anyway, back on topic.

The only reason I can think of that a Force-Sensitive Clone army hasn't been tried is, who has been making the Clone Armies?

Well, let's see.... The Emperor, and Grand Admiral Thrawn.
The Emperor didn't bother with a 'Jedi' Clone Army, (just squadron level experiments). Probably for a few reasons.
i.e Public mistrust of the Jedi ('And now you're mass producing them?')
i.e He didn't really need them
i.e Imagine if that Clone army had all 'gone Jedi Knight' and was turned against him?

Grand Admiral Thrawn never got the chance to experiment with Jedi cloning. However, he was definately open to the idea.

[Thanas]

If the flash-cloning of great minds and strategists was such an uncomplicated procedure as you claim, why did Thrawn give his own clone a minimum of 10 years to get ready? If it were so easy, why was his backup not immediately up and running after Bilbringi, kicking the stuffings out of the Republic?

Fact is that unless you want stormtroopers, pilots or something that requires a limited skillset, flash-cloning apparently is not an option.

[Solauren]

If the flash-cloning of great minds and strategists was such an uncomplicated procedure as you claim, why did Thrawn give his own clone a minimum of 10 years to get ready? If it were so easy, why was his backup not immediately up and running after Bilbringi, kicking the stuffings out of the Republic?

Fact is that unless you want stormtroopers, pilots or something that requires a limited skillset, flash-cloning apparently is not an option.

Skill Set/Complication: I never said it was uncomplicated. Thrawn tried it a 'cross-pollinization' experiment and considered it a failure.
I was addressing the 'FORCE' effects on the mind, and why an army was never attempted.
I was also addressing the possibility of a Stormtrooper-Jedi Master going rogue. I never once attempted to discuss the technological requirements.

As for Thrawn's clone taking 10 years, consider this:
10 years is a long time. It gives Thrawn more then enough to go 'oh crap, I need to get back to the Hand and reset my clone, before I have an identical twin running around.

I'm sorry, but if I was in Thrawn's shoes, and had a clone back-up, and didn't want anyone to know about it, I'd put a timer on it. After all, as Grand Admiral of a massive military fleet, or possibly even Galactic Emperor, I might not get many chances to visit what is essentailly a backwater secret installation (from the political point of view anyway), and reset the egg-timer that's keeping my clone asleep.

Besides, IIRC, the cloning tank in the Hand of Thrawn had a Flash-teaching set-up.
So, can't be that hard. Might be time-consuming, but not that hard.

[Thanas]

10 years is far too long for that, especially with hyperdrive. six months, okay, but 10 years? And who says the clone cannot be programmed to start activating upon a signal, such as an imperial announcement of Thrawn's death?

[Solauren]

10 years is far too long for that, especially with hyperdrive. six months, okay, but 10 years? And who says the clone cannot be programmed to start activating upon a signal, such as an imperial announcement of Thrawn's death?

The time length could very well be Thrawn's personal preference. You have to admit, Thrawn appearing out of nowhere after 10 years had a definate effect on people. You had the Republic dropping a load over it, Han Solo and Lando Calrission were like 'oh, crap', and the Imperial navy going "Yeah!". Hell, you even had neutral systems considering joining the Empire.

(In reality, that time was choosen by Zahn as that's how long had passed in-universe, and he didn't want to have to deal with trying to 'shoe-horn' the story anywhere else, or have to do major re-cons with the Mara-Luke relationship.)

As for alternate activation methods; it would depend on if Thrawn wanted to keep his use of clones secret (and not just sepculation). Considering the prejudice that existed towards clones (remember that Governor's reaction to finding out Major Tierce was a clone, some 35 years after the clone wars), was one of utter surprise and revulsion, this is probably a good idea. Even the Imperial army people had problems with clones on occasion (see the General's reaction in The Last Command when leading clones down to occupy that massive food-production world).

Let's face it; the Empire is depicted as being run by anit-alien Xenophobes, bigots, and sexists. This paranoia apparently extended to clones. Do you really think Thrawn would expect anyone to listen to a clone alien?

Of course not.

I'll admit, the second of third time a Thrawn clone showed up after 10 years, people would be wondering, but Thrawn was a smart being, and probably could explain it away without alot of problem (i.e "I'm his son" or, " my species is long-lived").

[Thanas]

Do you really think Thrawn would prefer to have the empire go down for 10 years before resurfacing?