Breaking News: Haiti hit by a 7.0 quake

[Broomstick]

Broomstick isn't saying that those are exclusively US Values, but they are values that the US people hold dear. I'm sure there are many other nations that hold those same values.

^ what he said.

No country has exclusive rights to any particular value you care to name.

[Patrick Degan]

Rush determined to beat Robertson for Biggest Jackass...
Confronted with some of that criticism, Limbaugh slammed a caller as “close-minded.”
“What I’m illustrating here is that you’re a blockhead,” Limbaugh shot back. “What I’m illustrating here is that you’re a close-minded bigot who is ill-informed.”
“If you had listened to this program for a modicum of time, you would know it,” he said. “But instead, you’re a blockhead. Your mind is totally closed. You have tampons in your ears. Nothing is getting through other than the biased crap that you read.”

I mean seriously, what is wrong with the man?

What else can you expect from a tub of human offal (as Harlan Ellison so aptly labeled him)?

[Broomstick]

Although much has been made about the "initial 72 hours", as usual for such disasters survivors are still being located well after that presumed deadline. It doesn't erase the calamity, but I figure some good news is better than none. (Quotes are excerpts for the sake of brevity, full articles at links)

From CNN

Port-au-Prince, Haiti (CNN) -- Survivors still emerged from collapsed buildings in Haiti's devastated capital Sunday, nearly five days after a 7.0-magnitude earthquake struck the impoverished island nation.

U.S. and Turkish rescuers plucked three people, including an American woman, from the rubble of a supermarket Sunday, and were continuing to search for more people in the ruins. The survivors had been living on the store's supply of food and water, rescuers said.

Elsewhere, a team from New York rescued a 55-year-old man from the remains of a four-story building after using a rescue camera to locate him. And an Israel Defense Forces team said Sunday it had rescued a Haitian government worker from the ruins of a customs office Saturday.

From the BBC

But, along with the worst, came the best moment in all that time in the rescue of two-year old Mia, found in a space in the basement of a nursery school on Friday night.

"She was under that rubble when we left England in the snow," he said, emotional as he remembered the moment Mia was pulled out unhurt and reunited with her mother Cormelle.

Because of a logistical bottleneck at Port-au-Prince airport, the heavy equipment that the fire officers rely on was not available until after Mia was pulled out, so they had to improvise with a locally-bought shovel and a pickaxe to force their way through the rubble to the void where she was sitting.

When they had dug in through the side of her house, working from the top of a pile of rubble, pictures from a camera sent down the tunnel showed that she was lying flat on her back in a space not much deeper than herself, with her toes touching the roof.

A BBC cameraman at the scene, Rob Magee, who speaks fluent French, was called on to help translate and helped to console the woman, Sonia Delmas, 39, as fire officers inched closer towards her.

Her daughter was lying dead beside her, but Sonia was pulled out alive and in one piece, crying out thanks to Jesus as she blinked in the open air after almost 100 hours confined with little hope of rescue.

This has been the largest ever international response to a disaster, with 1,700 rescue workers from more than 40 countries involved.

They have an extraordinary skill in being able to go deep into damaged buildings and save lives, and they do it in the interests of a common humanity.

Among 100,000 dead, the 50 or so survivors that have been pulled out by the international rescue teams are a sign of hope for Haiti.

[FSTargetDrone]

It should be noted that in one of the video links that Broomstick provided, Gupta says (in the last 30 seconds),

"...they have to go. And I don't think they wanna go. And I'm not trying to imply that at all. I think they wanna stay and take care of their patients. But they are being told to go."

The doctors and nurses were apparently ordered by the UN to leave, as Gupta says in his report. I am not so inclined to lay all the blame on the doctors who left as I might be on those people who ordered them to leave.

In any case, I don't see what the problem with Gupta is. He's there, he's apparently doing what he can (medically) and if, by his reporting, he can bring some attention to the matter, all the better.

[FSTargetDrone]

I just noticed that the story on the 5th page that Broomstick linked to was updated Sunday (17 January) evening. It seems that the UN did not order the medical teams to leave, as was suggested in the video. Rather, the team's leader decided to pull everyone out because of his own security concerns.

The current story, in full:

Security concerns cause doctors to leave hospital, quake victims
January 17, 2010 -- Updated 1942 GMT (0342 HKT)

STORY HIGHLIGHTS

* NEW: Belgian team chief says he decided to leave when U.N. could not provide security
* Doctors and nurses return to field hospital Saturday morning
* The only doctor present overnight was CNN's Sanjay Gupta
* Team has security in place and plans to stay Saturday night

Port-au-Prince, Haiti (CNN) -- Earthquake victims, writhing in pain and grasping at life, watched doctors and nurses walk away from a field hospital Friday night after a Belgian medical team evacuated the area, saying it was concerned about security.

The decision left CNN Chief Medical Correspondent Sanjay Gupta as the only doctor at the hospital to get the patients through the night.

CNN initially reported, based on conversations with some of the doctors, that the United Nations ordered the Belgian First Aid and Support Team to evacuate. However, Belgian Chief Coordinator Geert Gijs, a doctor who was at the hospital with 60 Belgian medical personnel, said it was his decision to pull the team out for the night. Gijs said he requested U.N. security personnel to staff the hospital overnight, but was told that peacekeepers would only be able to evacuate the team.

He said it was a "tough decision" but that he accepted the U.N. offer to evacuate after a Canadian medical team, also at the hospital with Canadian security officers, left the site Friday afternoon. The Belgian team returned Saturday morning.

Gijs said the United Nations has agreed to provide security for Saturday night. The team has requested the Belgian government to send its own troops for the field hospital, which Gijs expects to arrive late Sunday.

Responding to the CNN report that Gupta was the only doctor left at the Port-au-Prince field hospital, U.N. spokesman Martin Nesirky said Saturday that the world body's mission in Haiti did not order any medical team to leave. If the team left, it was at the request of their own organization, he said.

Edmond Mulet, the U.N. assistant secretary general for peacekeeping operations, told reporters later that local security officers deemed the makeshift hospital unsafe.

"It seems that we've heard some reports in the international media that the United Nations asked or forced some medical teams to not work any more in some clinic -- that is not true, that is completely untrue," Mulet said Saturday.

CNN video from the scene Friday night shows the Belgian team packing up its supplies and leaving with an escort of blue-helmeted U.N. peacekeepers in marked trucks.

Gupta -- assisted by other CNN staffers, security personnel and at least one Haitian nurse who refused to leave -- assessed the needs of the 25 patients, but there was little they could do without supplies.

More people, some in critical condition, were trickling in late Friday.

"I've never been in a situation like this. This is quite ridiculous," Gupta said.

With a dearth of medical facilities in Haiti's capital, ambulances had nowhere else to take patients, some of whom had suffered severe trauma -- amputations and head injuries -- under the rubble. Others had suffered a great deal of blood loss, but there were no blood supplies left at the clinic.

Gupta feared that some would not survive the night.

He and the others stayed with the injured all night, after the medical team had left and after the generators gave out and the tents turned pitch black.

Gupta monitored patients' vital signs, administered painkillers and continued intravenous drips. He stabilized three new patients in critical condition.

At 3:45 a.m., he posted a message on Twitter: "pulling all nighter at haiti field hosp. lots of work, but all patients stable. turned my crew into a crack med team tonight."

He said the Belgian doctors did not want to leave their patients behind but were ordered out by the United Nations, which sent buses to transport them.

"There is concern about riots not far from here -- and this is part of the problem," Gupta said.

There have been scattered reports of violence throughout the capital.

"What is striking to me as a physician is that patients who just had surgery, patients who are critically ill, are essentially being left here, nobody to care for them," Gupta said.

Sandra Pierre, a Haitian who has been helping at the makeshift hospital, said the medical staff took most of the supplies with them.

"All the doctors, all the nurses are gone," she said. "They are expected to be back tomorrow. They had no plan on leaving tonight. It was an order that came suddenly."

She told Gupta, "It's just you."

A 7.0 magnitude earthquake flattened Haiti's capital city Tuesday afternoon, affecting as many as 3 million people as it fanned out across the island nation. Tens of thousands of people are feared dead.

Haiti, the poorest nation in the Western hemisphere, lacked adequate medical resources even before the disaster and has been struggling this week to tend to huge numbers of injured. The clinic, set up under several tents, was a godsend to the few who were lucky to have been brought there.

Retired Army Lt. Gen. Russel Honore, who led relief efforts for Hurricane Katrina in 2005, said the evacuation of the clinic's medical staff was unforgivable.

"Search and rescue must trump security," Honoré said. "I've never seen anything like this before in my life. They need to man up and get back in there."

Honoré drew parallels between the tragedy in New Orleans, Louisiana, and in Port-au-Prince. But even in the chaos of Katrina, he said, he had never seen medical staff walk away.

"I find this astonishing these doctors left," he said. "People are scared of the poor."

CNN's Justine Redman, Danielle Dellorto and John Bonifield contributed to this report.

[Simon_Jester]

That said, this is still a CNN article. It makes sense to question their objectivity in a situation where they can earn great publicity by emphasizing how heroic their reporter was when the people around him supposedly cut and ran...

1. You are plagiarizing g2mil.com.
2. That website has no idea what it's talking about, and clearly neither do you if you are posting lines from it verbatim.

What practical problems do you think there are with the Seaplane-130 concept? I'm not informed enough to know, and I'm curious.

[Bounty]

I just noticed that the story on the 5th page that Broomstick linked to was updated Sunday (17 January) evening. It seems that the UN did not order the medical teams to leave, as was suggested in the video. Rather, the team's leader decided to pull everyone out because of his own security concerns.

Just to be clear: the team didn't "pull out" entirely. Unlike all the other medical teams operating in the area, their field hospital had received no UN security forces, and without security UN guidelines stopped them from staying overnight. The Belgian mission still has thirty doctors on the ground and 34 military personnel on the way; the only ones to have returned home are the search teams, because they couldn't find any more survivors under the rubble.

[Broomstick]

What practical problems do you think there are with the Seaplane-130 concept? I'm not informed enough to know, and I'm curious.

Seaplanes, like all airplanes, have limitations. Among other things, water and wave conditions can limit operations. Would be hard to explain to people why, on a nice sunny day, the seaplanes can't land in that pretty surf. Seaplanes are also less efficient as flying machines than land-based airplanes which isn't always an obstacle but it will up fuel costs considerably. In addition, there are difficulties with maintenance caused by water exposure, particularly salt water, which is corrosive.

Which is not to say the concept is impossible, just that there are some actual obstacles to doing it.

[wautd]

The story is also rather one sided in that we mostly hear Gupta's side of the story, without any reports on the things they did do to help.

Skimming on the CNN site, I don't get why only the Belgians get so much flak while the Canadians left even sooner, but I guess it's easy to scream cowardice behind the safety of your computer. Not that I blame any of them, personal safety should come first because a wounded or killed doctor can't do much the next day. These people are civilian volenteers, not soldiers or martyrs.
Perhaps it was naive to assume the UN would provide security, but that's another ones fault.

Hell, as a Belgian I'm proud that a country with a population about the size of NY and thousands miles away was able to respond in such a timely manner.

[Broomstick]

That one sidedness is why I wish he hadn't mentioned the nationality of the doctors who left - their nationality is irrelevant to what occurred, whether you agree with their actions or not.

[wautd]

And, not only did the Belgians leave they took all the supplies with them!

And risk it to loose it all the next day to looters who don't have any medical skill? When supplies are already shorthanded, it seems like the most rational thing to do.

[Broomstick]

Yeah - except that an actual doctor with security personnel was staying! It's a case where the medical supplies would not be simply left unguarded, there would be people there to keep them from being looted.

[wautd]

Yeah - except that an actual doctor with security personnel was staying! It's a case where the medical supplies would not be simply left unguarded, there would be people there to keep them from being looted.

Well I guess we'll have to take humble mr. Gupta's word for it that none of the supplies was left behind. Given the one-sideness of the article I have more the feeling that he's being a douche by writing a sensationalist article with him as the messiah but maybe that's just me.

Those showing up to render aid have ALSO been told, repeatedly, that they must bring EVERYTHING they need. Everything. Why do reporters bring their own security? Because they know they can't depend on the UN to babysit them. Likewise, these Belgians should have brought or hired security. Seriously, for just food and water, never mind money, I'm sure they could have hired a couple dozen native Haitian men to stand in a big circle and growl at anyone intent on causing trouble.

Perhaps it was naive to assume the UN would provide security, but that's not the fault of the doctors on site.

If it was that unsafe for the able bodied doctors, how much more unsafe was it for for the injured and ill lying helpless in those tents? Or is it OK to entirely abandon them merely because they're poor and Haitian?

It's fucking cruel to show up, doctor for an afternoon, then abandon injured people with the excuse it's too dangerous for you to stay but, oh, you with the broken limbs who just went through surgery, just lie there all fucking night, in the dark, completely on your own. If you can't handle some personal danger don't go into a disaster zone like that!

Is there an unwritten law that civilian volenteers have to risk their own life? At least offering some help is better than giving no help at all. For all we know, if those medics weren't there to begin with, those same Haitans might have been dead by now. Or do you think they'd rather spent their time lying under rubble if they'd knew they'b be abandoned after receiving first aid?

These volenteers already sacrificing a lot, yet you expect them to risk their own lifes on top of that? To what gain? Some sensless but heroic death? Thanks, but I'd rather see them help the next day as well.

Abandoning those people was wrong. Now, at the time the decision was made it might have seemed to be a good idea. None of us here were on the ground, but in retrospect it was wrong and heartless. The medical personnel pulled out but made no effort to also pull out the patients? WTF?

Because maybe it was simply was impossible to move wounded people around in a reasonable amount of time?

[Broomstick]

Yeah - except that an actual doctor with security personnel was staying! It's a case where the medical supplies would not be simply left unguarded, there would be people there to keep them from being looted.

Well I guess we'll have to take humble mr. Gupta's word for it that none of the supplies was left behind. Given the one-sideness of the article I have more the feeling that he's being a douche by writing a sensationalist article with him as the messiah but maybe that's just me.

I think there's some confusion between his employer (CNN) exploiting the situation and Dr. Gupta's position. As a doctor, he's going to be upset that these patients aren't being cared for. Granted, thousands of people are dying in Port-au-Prince all around the city, that doesn't make it any better to watch someone die in front of you that you feel you could save if only you had the right supplies and materials. That hardly makes him a "douche" or "sensationalist". As it is, he also enlisted the crew with him to help out with the wounded, which he mentioned as well in his blog, which is hardly the action of some lone self-aggrandizing "hero". He also skipped out on hosting his usual Sunday morning show, which this week was supposed to be from Haiti, as he was putting the needs of severely injured people above his agenda and his employer's agenda. Again, not exactly "douchebag" behavior. Of course, he does have to say why he's not fulfilling his prior commitment to host that show - "Sorry, I spent the night guarding and taking care of 25 people who's prior doctors left due to lack of security" is... grandstanding? Taking advantage? What?

I'm sure it would have been MUCH easier for Dr. Gupta to bug out with the Belgian crew, get a good night's sleep, and do his usual 1 hour Sunday morning gig instead of staying up all night taking care of patient's in an admittedly risky environment at some personal risk to himself and getting no more than a short 30 sec video article and tweet or two. Oh yeah, great trade-off.

Is it too much to stomach that MAYBE a reporter and an American did the right thing by staying behind to take care of 25 hurt people?

Those showing up to render aid have ALSO been told, repeatedly, that they must bring EVERYTHING they need. Everything. Why do reporters bring their own security? Because they know they can't depend on the UN to babysit them. Likewise, these Belgians should have brought or hired security. Seriously, for just food and water, never mind money, I'm sure they could have hired a couple dozen native Haitian men to stand in a big circle and growl at anyone intent on causing trouble.

Perhaps it was naive to assume the UN would provide security, but that's not the fault of the doctors on site.

I'm sorry, that doesn't cut it. That sort of disaster scene is no place for the naive. It's been very explicit that you bring/make arrangements for EVERYTHING. I'm sorry some people don't understand what "everything" means.

Is it an unpardonable sin? No - but it's an illustration of why this sort of rescue is not for amateurs. I don't mean amateur doctors, I mean people who aren't emergency medical personnel, trained first responders, or other people trained to cope with this sort of adverse conditions.

If it was that unsafe for the able bodied doctors, how much more unsafe was it for for the injured and ill lying helpless in those tents? Or is it OK to entirely abandon them merely because they're poor and Haitian?

It's fucking cruel to show up, doctor for an afternoon, then abandon injured people with the excuse it's too dangerous for you to stay but, oh, you with the broken limbs who just went through surgery, just lie there all fucking night, in the dark, completely on your own. If you can't handle some personal danger don't go into a disaster zone like that!

Is there an unwritten law that civilian volenteers have to risk their own life?

If you can't stomach personal risk why the FUCK are you in Haiti, post-earthquake, where the government is non-functional and the police are nowhere to be found and desperate people are, in some cases resorting to violence for water and food? It is an inherently unsafe place right now, both from the people and the aftershocks shaking the rubble. It's not safe. That doesn't mean you should take stupid risks, but please, anyone who thinks they can go to Port-au-Prince right now without some personal risk is a fucking idiot.

At least offering some help is better than giving no help at all. For all we know, if those medics weren't there to begin with, those same Haitans might have been dead by now. Or do you think they'd rather spent their time lying under rubble if they'd knew they'b be abandoned after receiving first aid?

Irrelevant. It was wrong to abandon those patients. Now, if someone was shooting directly at the docs, if there was an imminent threat to life and limb, I could see running away but that's not what was happening.

These volenteers already sacrificing a lot, yet you expect them to risk their own lifes on top of that? To what gain? Some sensless but heroic death? Thanks, but I'd rather see them help the next day as well.

Other doctors and nurses in Port-au-Prince have been laboring to save people from just after the quake itself with no security. Apparently, it's NOT instant death to be in Port-au-Prince without a gun on your hip and a bodyguard.

And do you think doctors don't risk their lives helping patients? They are immune somehow to disease or violent patients?

If you aren't willing to stick by your patients - barring imminent threats - get the fuck out.

Abandoning those people was wrong. Now, at the time the decision was made it might have seemed to be a good idea. None of us here were on the ground, but in retrospect it was wrong and heartless. The medical personnel pulled out but made no effort to also pull out the patients? WTF?

Because maybe it was simply was impossible to move wounded people around in a reasonable amount of time?

Did anyone even ask?

Holy fuck - leave the damn medical equipment and take the patients instead! Or are you going to argue that the medical supplies were more important that actual human lives? Yes, there is risk in moving the severely injured, but if the docs think they need to flee for there lives there is equally risk in leaving them behind! Why the fuck did they think the patients would be any safer than the docs and the medical supplies? Or are wounded Haitians regarded as expendable?

[Bounty]

Is it too much to stomach that MAYBE a reporter and an American did the right thing by staying behind to take care of 25 hurt people?

Let's be clear here: nationalities are irrelevant in this case. If the situation were the reverse, I hope everyone's positions would be the same.

Secondly, the Belgian team was promised security, and military personnel have been sent to the area. The security fell through and the soldiers didn't arrive in time - that happens. Is that sufficient reason to risk the life of the entire medical staff? No. Yes, they could have helped those 25 people who stayed behind in the field hospital, and Dr Gupta did a tremendous act of bravery and charity by staying and tending to the wounded. But if this comes at the risk of losing a medical team and its supplies that can save hundreds the next day, that price is too high. The leader of the team was told he could either be temporarily evacuated to the safe areas where the remaining medical teams were operating, or he could stay and go into the night with zero security and the very real prospect of violence and looting. He made the call to temporarily evacuate.

I don't know why you take this decision as such a personal affront. The team leader's first duty is to make sure he can help as many people as possible as best as possible, and he can't do that if his team is dead or his supplies are looted for the sake of 25 patients. Temporarily leaving the field hospital until conditions were such that his people could do their job is, in this case, the right decision to make.

Or are wounded Haitians regarded as expendable?

As harsh as this sounds, a wounded Haitian needs care, a doctor can give care. If you need to choose between putting one of them, and only one of them, in danger, the Haitian is the sensible pick - assuming the doctor goes on to treat the injured when the danger passes, as they are still doing right now.

[Broomstick]

Is it too much to stomach that MAYBE a reporter and an American did the right thing by staying behind to take care of 25 hurt people?

Let's be clear here: nationalities are irrelevant in this case. If the situation were the reverse, I hope everyone's positions would be the same.

Really? So what about the people in this thread who say the Belgians who abandoned their patients are selfless and good people, and the American who stayed behind is arrogant, grandstanding, and exploitative? You don't see a bias there?

Is that sufficient reason to risk the life of the entire medical staff? No.

Did ALL of the medical staff have to pull out? If they did, and they knew there was a trained doctor remaining behind did they have to take all the medical supplies? Did they make any attempt to evacuate any of the patients?

Yes, they could have helped those 25 people who stayed behind in the field hospital, and Dr Gupta did a tremendous act of bravery and charity by staying and tending to the wounded.

Then why are some demonizing him as a grandstanding egoist? Accusing him of ulterior motives and personal gain and exploitation?

I don't know why you take this decision as such a personal affront.

Because it's not OK to simply shrug your shoulders and walk away from injured people because of some personal inconvenience. It's not OK to say "I'm afraid for my own self" and leave helpless people exposed and undefended in a dangerous situation. Morality and ethics aren't about what you do when it's easy and convenient, it's about what you do when it's difficult and hard to do the right thing.

The team leader's first duty is to make sure he can help as many people as possible as best as possible, and he can't do that if his team is dead or his supplies are looted for the sake of 25 patients. Temporarily leaving the field hospital until conditions were such that his people could do their job is, in this case, the right decision to make.

But abandoning injured people, leaving them utterly defenseless in such a situation, is NOT the right decision.

Or are wounded Haitians regarded as expendable?

As harsh as this sounds, a wounded Haitian needs care, a doctor can give care. If you need to choose between putting one of them, and only one of them, in danger, the Haitian is the sensible pick - assuming the doctor goes on to treat the injured when the danger passes, as they are still doing right now.

Except a doctor did stay the night and they weren't attacked... so just how much imminent danger was there, really? Gee, maybe the head guy should have asked Gupta if he'd be willing to stay with his security overnight to help them out? Maybe he should have asked some able-bodied Haitian men to help protect these patients - the Haitians, after all, are selfless enough to dig their neighbors out of the rubble with their bare hands starting just after the quake at no small risk to themselves, maybe they'd be willing to help out? Did anyone even bother to ask them? Or was the assumption that the Haitians are helpless idiots who can't be trusted at play?

Was any attempt made to find an alternative solution? So the UN can't help, fine, ask the locals (in actual fact, a Haitian nurse did insist on staying with Gupta, so obviously some local help was possible to find). Or ask the reporter with his security if he could stay, or if he knew someone who could help out. Ask if you can evacuate patients along with the doctors. Was any of this done at all? Because if the director didn't do that then he is a morally bankrupt jackass in my view, intent on playing hero as long as it's no personal risk to himself. If he DID do it, well, that's a different story.

[Bounty]

Since we don't generally assume people are morally bankrupt jackasses, especially people who volunteer for disaster relief and have many years of experience in the field, I think it's less than dishonest to assume they just walked because of "inconvenience", and that it's time you take a step back and think about what you are implying - and the wild assumptions you are drawing from, let's face it, very little evidence.

[Darth Wong]

Except a doctor did stay the night and they weren't attacked... so just how much imminent danger was there, really?

Do you really think this is a logical argument? Seriously? Slow down, take a good look at it, and tell me if you honestly think that is sound logic.

[wautd]

Yeah - except that an actual doctor with security personnel was staying! It's a case where the medical supplies would not be simply left unguarded, there would be people there to keep them from being looted.

Well I guess we'll have to take humble mr. Gupta's word for it that none of the supplies was left behind. Given the one-sideness of the article I have more the feeling that he's being a douche by writing a sensationalist article with him as the messiah but maybe that's just me.

I think there's some confusion between his employer (CNN) exploiting the situation and Dr. Gupta's position. As a doctor, he's going to be upset that these patients aren't being cared for. Granted, thousands of people are dying in Port-au-Prince all around the city, that doesn't make it any better to watch someone die in front of you that you feel you could save if only you had the right supplies and materials. That hardly makes him a "douche" or "sensationalist". As it is, he also enlisted the crew with him to help out with the wounded, which he mentioned as well in his blog, which is hardly the action of some lone self-aggrandizing "hero". He also skipped out on hosting his usual Sunday morning show, which this week was supposed to be from Haiti, as he was putting the needs of severely injured people above his agenda and his employer's agenda. Again, not exactly "douchebag" behavior. Of course, he does have to say why he's not fulfilling his prior commitment to host that show - "Sorry, I spent the night guarding and taking care of 25 people who's prior doctors left due to lack of security" is... grandstanding? Taking advantage? What?

I stand corrected on this part. For the rest, I'll have to agree to disagree with you. Personally I think you're being unreasonable but it doesn't look like either of us will change their mind

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

Haiti really is in a state of anarchy, and I seriously doubt any one without very very tight security, and lots of guns is going to stay in. There have been numerous incidents of mobs lynching suspected looters, and I can tell you, if I were seeing these people going around, setting fire to others, and ripping them apart, I would get scared.

So seriously, calling people coward etc., is really really stupid, and totally ignoring the state of affairs in the country. The country's symbols of power have been completely obliterated, for goodness sake. What government is there to govern the country?

[FSTargetDrone]

Again, I am not so ready to believe that the Belgians are to blame either. Gupta himself in the video says that they (the other medical people) are being told to leave, that he believes they do not want to leave. You can see the blue-helmeted UN security people in the trucks in the video driving away. Some of those doctors may have felt that had no choice but to leave, despite their personal desire to stay and help. Despite the correction that it wasn't the UN that "ordered" the medical people to leave, someone in authority (the team's leader) did tell them to leave and they left.

Additionally, it is possible that both Gupta and the Belgians acted correctly (or morally) as they saw things. The Belgians want to stay, but their boss is telling them he doesn't feel safe, so we are leaving, let's go we are going right now. Gupta has some security with him, feels he is relatively safe and elects to stay. I seriously doubt he would have stuck around if the situation became untenable and it would have been foolish for him to do so.

[Broomstick]

Well, let's see if I can explain my position a little differently. You all may still disagree with it, but we can agree to disagree.

A post-disaster scene like in Haiti is not safe. How unsafe it really is will vary from location to location and from one point in time to another. There are multiple threats of multiple origins: the disaster itself, unstable debris, death and decay, lack of sanitation, lack of food and water, lack of shelter, possibly weather (not so far in Haiti, but in other disasters it has been a factor), roaming wildlife/pets gone feral, and the real joker - people. Disasters bring out the best AND the worst.

If you aren't prepared to take risk then don't go in. Seriously. I've seen reports of people who flew down to Haiti, took one look, and turned around to scramble to get home. They had no business going in the first place, and took a seat a real rescuer or a stack of supplies could have used. Granted, you will always have a few people show up who can't hack it, that's unavoidable, but people really should be careful about charging in to help. That's why they keep saying "It's as horrible as it looks, in fact, it's WORSE."

Now, personally, I don't have a problem with a properly informed civilian going into a hazardous situation. I'm a big believer in free choice and not all of my activities are risk-free, either. An organization like Medicins Sans Frontieres is civilian and goes to some of the most outrageously hazardous spots on the planet. Some of their people have been killed. But that's what they do, presumably they understand the risk and take it of their own free will. There are other organizations out there that do similar work to one degree or another.

Then there is the military. Military docs and combat surgeons operate only minutes from the front line these days. Hell yes they take a risk. But they're military and the possibility of being shot is part of that. That, and the military has an abundance of people who can act as security (though obviously some are more trained in that role than others).

But IF you are the sort of civilian who requires personal safety to function I'm not convinced Haiti is where you should be. Yes, snafu's happen, but the place is inherently unsafe. Hell, it was dangerous in many areas even before the earthquake, it's only worse now. Here's the problem (one of them), as I see it:

Team A goes in, treats people, then pull out at sundown due to safety reasons
Patients all die
Team A goes in, treats people, pulls out at sundown
Patients all die
Rinse and repeat

They not doing any fucking good in that scenario. It would be better not to go in until the entire area is safe enough for them, because otherwise they're just wasting their time, energy, and supplies. They're not saving any lives. Save those resources for when they CAN save lives. If you can't stay the night with the patients then you shouldn't be there at all. It's sad, but it's also triage - don't waste resources on people you can't really save, spend on those who have an actual chance at life. As different groups have different capabilities who can save whom is going to vary.

Now, I can consider different possible solutions and outcomes to the problem of security and medicine. I am not insensitive to the face that having the doctors killed in these circumstances is a Bad Thing.

- can you ask for/hire local help?
- can you ask someone who does have security to stay the night?
- can you evacuate patients?
- can you stabilize patients enough to make evacuation possible?
- can you coordinate with someone else so those evacuees have someone to go?
- can you care for some of the patients in your own night quarters?
- would a military-run aid station be more appropriate in that location?
- should you set up somewhere else that was safer to begin with?

As for the individual medics - sorry, I don't accept "the boss said we have to go, so I have to go even though I don't want to" as an out. You are deciding to obey those orders. You do have the option to stay anyway - though of course that probably WILL have consequences of one sort or another. There is a lot of merit to obeying orders and it's usually the right choice - but not always. Saying "the boss told me to do this" doesn't absolve you of responsibility, you are always responsible for your own actions and decisions.

And yes, it may well be that there were some patients so very fragile they really couldn't be moved at all... but I doubt all 25 were in that category. It sure would have relieved those who stayed if even one or two of those people had been taken out of the situation to somewhere else with more medical care.

It is my impression that what the UN guy was saying was that staying was at your own risk - they weren't ordering anyone to do anything, though they were willing to pull people out who wanted out, but if you wanted to stay they would not stop you. They just wouldn't supply security either (for whatever reason - personnel shortage sounds like a good excuse to me). It didn't sound like "omigod! It's not safe!" but rather "you have to decide for yourself". I'm sure some people would have chosen to stay - in fact, some did.

All that said, there were undoubtedly misunderstandings and mistakes in this matter. Well, I hope those involved learned something from it, whether to take security under consideration more in these circumstances or whatever. I have been trying to find the Belgian side of the story, as that could certainly shed some light on the subject, but aside from that medical chief's statement that he ordered the withdrawal and not the UN I have found nothing.

[Thanas]

Broomstick, I think you are making a lot of unfounded assumptions based on very little information and to be honest, I think you, sitting comfortably several hundreds of miles away, should not be that confident in proclaiming judgement on the actions of people who are trained in this. For instance, throughout this thread you have made the assumption that the Belgians could have hired local security. I now ask you to provide proof that they have such wide-ranging power, as it essential involves organizing people into loca militias. Same thing with bribing locals with food.

[FSTargetDrone]

So we are clear, the head of the Belgian team (the Chief Coordinator) is Geert Gijs.

We cannot forget that Gijs had to manage sixty people. He is responsible for the safety of those people and his decision to remove them from the area (temporarily, let's not forget--they did return the next day) is hard for me to criticize, given what I've read so far. I have no doubt that many of those people may have wanted to stay, but when the boss is saying that he can't stay and that he wants to get everyone out because the situation feels unsafe, then I cannot fault them for leaving. None of us here know what the "true" situation was that night and events can change quickly, spinning out of hand too fast to deal with if one lingers. Frankly, if I'm in charge of a large group of civilians and I feel we don't have adequate protection, I'm sorry, I am not going to leave them in a situation where they may come to harm.

I have no problem leaving some of the supplies behind for Gupta and whoever else elects to remain, but my first responsibility is the safety of the team. They aren't military, they can't necessarily be expected to defend themselves. Gupta's group (camerperson, a few other CNN staff, maybe a handful of private security at the most) might be able to clear out in a couple of cars in a hurry if things start to go south fast. But clearing out 60 people requires several more cars or trucks and may be harder to do quickly.

[Broomstick]

Broomstick, I think you are making a lot of unfounded assumptions based on very little information and to be honest, I think you, sitting comfortably several hundreds of miles away, should not be that confident in proclaiming judgement on the actions of people who are trained in this. For instance, throughout this thread you have made the assumption that the Belgians could have hired local security. I now ask you to provide proof that they have such wide-ranging power, as it essential involves organizing people into loca militias. Same thing with bribing locals with food.

No, I did not make the assumption, I asked if it was possible. Or didn't you see the question marks?



I have already acknowledged that there is information missing, and that those questions I mentioned might even have been asked. Clearly, they did have Haitians helping out - Gupta mentioned a Haitian nurse who stayed the night. In the video you can see people working who might well be locals. Frankly, you can't have an aid operation of the sort required without local help, and as I have pointed out, quite a few the Haitians have shown the ability to self-organize to help themselves, whether it's to search for survivors or build shelter or scavenge supplies. I have no doubt some of them are banding together because there is safety in numbers. So - did anyone ask the locals to help out with keeping the field hospital safe? I don't know. Neither do you. That's why I would like to hear the Belgian side of this story, because that's where we're likely to hear the answer to that question.

I think a lot of people are making the assumption that the area of the field hospital was terribly unsafe when perhaps no one knew if it was unsafe or not. If it was so unsafe as to need actual militias the Gupta and crew would have been overrun at night because CNN security isn't a militia. It may have required nothing more than a dozen healthy-looking men standing around to discourage random troublemakers. We'll never know, will we? Well, we know that there weren't organized gangs armed with automatic weapons charging through that night, because if there had been the CNN crew would have been in a world of hurt.

I also take exception to the idea that Gupta is somehow grandstanding on this. Of course, CNN likes to publicize his life-saving actions (right now they're publicizing that he was called to the Carl Vinson for brain surgery on a survivor - apparently he's the only neurosurgeon closer than Miami at the moment, at least the only one available, but it's someone else at CNN reporting, Gupta didn't fire off a tweet and 30 minutes of video, he just went) but I honestly think that Gupta wades into the medical stuff because he's a doctor. He drops the reporter hat as soon as someone needs medical attention, whether it's in an active war zone or during a natural disaster.

I'm also the sort of person who, if something bad happens in front of me in real life, isn't going to sit on the sidelines and wait for someone else to act, I'm going to do something if I can even at some personal risk. I know that because I've done that sort of thing. I also know better than to even think of going into a situation like Haiti because I know I don't have the training, skill, or resources to actually help. So I guess my feeling is that either you do the fucking job, even at some risk to yourself, or get the fuck out of there so you're not in the way.

And, as I said, this could just be a case of a SNAFU - in which case CNN should, absolutely, tell the Belgian side of this tale.